Related to stall, what's the role of Mew on ABR's stall? Defensive Mew is usually found on balance, so is this Mew specially defensive with EQ/Gunk Shot to take on common threats to stall Heatran and Lele? And how much speed should a stall Mew be running?
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake
- Thread starter Gary
- Start date
- Status
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 236 HP / 100 SpD / 172 Spe
Careful Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Earthquake
- Defog
- Soft-Boiled
Mew can do a ton of different things, including running PDef, SDef, and Speed as well as Ice Beam, Earth Power, Earthquake, and Volt Switch as damaging moves, but this was the one on that specific team. It fit as a utility check and Defog user. It is shown off well in that replay, I'd say.
Hyper Offense Analysis (OLT 5, July /August 2018)
HO builds are rampant on the ladder, as is typical for the OLT cycles. While HO, in my opinion, is far from the best playstyle in OU, it is at its highest viability in recent memory. Here's some basics for the archetype, broken down by category. Many Pokemon can fit into multiple roles, and others can fill multiple roles using only one set.
1. The Rocker
Hazards are nearly mandatory on any team. HO squads are no exception, as they are crucial to nabbing KOs and makes sweeping easier to accomplish. The ideal Stealth Rock candidates are capable of getting hazards up against all playstyles, such as Offense, Balance, and Stall. They also generally have a good or at least decent matchup against common hazard removers such as Zapdos, Gliscor, Tornadus-Therian, Tapu Koko, and Landorus-Therian. Most Stealth Rock users are slow, and those with decent speed tend to focus EV spreads on speed and firepower rather than bulk. This gives rise to the term "Suicide Lead", where the lead, often holding a Focus Sash, lays hazards and potentially prevents the opponent from doing so before fainting.
(see: Omari P)
(see: BanDisnDatnMe)
"Druddigon's combination of Glare, Stealth Rock, and Roar gives it a defined niche on HO teams, as it's able to compress roles very efficiently by acting as a Stealth Rock setter, Glare setter and Taunt setter while being able to provide its team members valuable momentum with Roar"
- BanDisnDatnMe
2. The Subdivision
This is where the variations, or subdivisions, of HO, such as Sticky Webs, Weather, Trick Room, Spikes and / or Toxic Spikes, Dual Screens, Aurora Veil, and others are added. The function the rest of the team builds itself from is created here. Like The Rocker, these Pokemon get up their hazards / field effects / etc and try to keep them up as long as possible. They tend to be more survival-oriented than the Suicide Leads, as they can often perform their roles multiple times in the course of a battle. Commonly used items include Leftovers, HP-restoring berries, Mental Herb, and effect-extending items such as Light Clay. If none of these variants apply to the team then an additional Pokemon from a following category will take this spot.
"Rain has seen more usage each cycle [of OLT], with numerous variants making appearances that make the archetype a bit less one dimensional than it was initially perceived to be" - Finchinator
3. The Abuser
This category contains any and all Pokemon that take advantage of whatever hazards / field effects / etc are set by The Subdivision. For many teams, most or all of the members can fit into this category, but it is worth specifying that some Pokemon are not worth using on HO or in general unless they take advantage of a specific variation.
"if you predict a Defog, you can also go hard Serp and enjoy the evasion Boost. +1 Evasion with Sub and Glare is HELLA NASTY"
- robopoke
4. The Breaker
HO teams need to be able to grab KOs quickly and maintain pressure on opponents. More than any other playstyle, HO teams always want to "take the wheel" of the game and use offensive pressure to force advantageous situations, thereby enabling The Breaker to pave the way for victory during the early and mid-game. This is extremely important against Stall, as both the power and matchup advantages of The Breaker, or lack thereof, tend to make or break a team's performance against Stall. Some of them use a combination of bulk and set-up moves to accomplish this while others can simply use brute force thanks to their naturally high base stats.
"FUCK STALL IN THE CHODEHOLE" - CTC
5. The Cleaner
Once the opposing team's defensive counterplay has been sufficiently weakened, or outright KO'd, The Cleaner can step in to make short work of the rest of the team. They often use set-up moves and priority attacks to accomplish this. It is imperative that The Breaker performs its necessary tasks of weakening and / or eliminating The Cleaner's checks because the Cleaner will otherwise be nearly useless in many situations. For example, if the opponent has a healthy Zapdos or Tangrowth, then the HO player's Hawlucha and Zygarde, respectively, will never pose a threat to the opponent.
" [Gyarados'] ability to surprise switchins and easily snowball boosts when holding a z-crystal makes for a terrifying late-game sweeper" - Leo
6. The Hazard Control
For teams that feature a lot of Pokemon that are threatened by Stealth Rock and other hazards, a form of hazard control can be a good option if it can be fit into the build. Without it, many attackers would be unable to pivot and / or set up safely due to losing health upon switching or from being slowed by Sticky Web or poisoned by Toxic Spikes. Rapid Spin is ideal for this role; unfortunately, Excadrill is the only viable Rapid Spin user in the tier. Defog, while tricky to fit onto offensive Pokemon, is a decent alternative for teams that are less reliant on stacking hazards. Some Pokemon rely on preventing the opponent from setting hazards, as mentioned in Role 1, due to Taunt, offensive pressure against common leads, and other options.
"just use this [Pelipper] in certain situations when it benefits you a lot like vs webs, multiple hazards or like I mentioned earlier if their hazard setter is dead"
- Jaina
7. The Defensive Counterplay
...Defensive options, on a HO team? The reality when battling is that things rarely go according to plan, and if the HO player begins to lose control of momentum then their chances of winning can disappear in an instant. It is therefore important that HO teams have some sort of counterplay against foes that can easily break their team. The alternative is finding out the hard way that "this team gets 6-0'd by Volcarona" or always losing to Ash-Greninja or Scarf Lele in the late-game. Pokemon that can manage such threats while remaining threats themselves are crucial to success.
(CM + Taunt)
"this [Mega Scizor] cuts through HO like a hot knife through butter too as they cannot deal with a Sciz simultaneously boosting Attack and Defense." - p2
Sample Cores
Sample Teams
HO builds are rampant on the ladder, as is typical for the OLT cycles. While HO, in my opinion, is far from the best playstyle in OU, it is at its highest viability in recent memory. Here's some basics for the archetype, broken down by category. Many Pokemon can fit into multiple roles, and others can fill multiple roles using only one set.
1. The Rocker
Hazards are nearly mandatory on any team. HO squads are no exception, as they are crucial to nabbing KOs and makes sweeping easier to accomplish. The ideal Stealth Rock candidates are capable of getting hazards up against all playstyles, such as Offense, Balance, and Stall. They also generally have a good or at least decent matchup against common hazard removers such as Zapdos, Gliscor, Tornadus-Therian, Tapu Koko, and Landorus-Therian. Most Stealth Rock users are slow, and those with decent speed tend to focus EV spreads on speed and firepower rather than bulk. This gives rise to the term "Suicide Lead", where the lead, often holding a Focus Sash, lays hazards and potentially prevents the opponent from doing so before fainting.
"Druddigon's combination of Glare, Stealth Rock, and Roar gives it a defined niche on HO teams, as it's able to compress roles very efficiently by acting as a Stealth Rock setter, Glare setter and Taunt setter while being able to provide its team members valuable momentum with Roar"
- BanDisnDatnMe
2. The Subdivision
This is where the variations, or subdivisions, of HO, such as Sticky Webs, Weather, Trick Room, Spikes and / or Toxic Spikes, Dual Screens, Aurora Veil, and others are added. The function the rest of the team builds itself from is created here. Like The Rocker, these Pokemon get up their hazards / field effects / etc and try to keep them up as long as possible. They tend to be more survival-oriented than the Suicide Leads, as they can often perform their roles multiple times in the course of a battle. Commonly used items include Leftovers, HP-restoring berries, Mental Herb, and effect-extending items such as Light Clay. If none of these variants apply to the team then an additional Pokemon from a following category will take this spot.
"Rain has seen more usage each cycle [of OLT], with numerous variants making appearances that make the archetype a bit less one dimensional than it was initially perceived to be" - Finchinator
3. The Abuser
This category contains any and all Pokemon that take advantage of whatever hazards / field effects / etc are set by The Subdivision. For many teams, most or all of the members can fit into this category, but it is worth specifying that some Pokemon are not worth using on HO or in general unless they take advantage of a specific variation.
"if you predict a Defog, you can also go hard Serp and enjoy the evasion Boost. +1 Evasion with Sub and Glare is HELLA NASTY"
- robopoke
4. The Breaker
HO teams need to be able to grab KOs quickly and maintain pressure on opponents. More than any other playstyle, HO teams always want to "take the wheel" of the game and use offensive pressure to force advantageous situations, thereby enabling The Breaker to pave the way for victory during the early and mid-game. This is extremely important against Stall, as both the power and matchup advantages of The Breaker, or lack thereof, tend to make or break a team's performance against Stall. Some of them use a combination of bulk and set-up moves to accomplish this while others can simply use brute force thanks to their naturally high base stats.
"FUCK STALL IN THE CHODEHOLE" - CTC
5. The Cleaner
Once the opposing team's defensive counterplay has been sufficiently weakened, or outright KO'd, The Cleaner can step in to make short work of the rest of the team. They often use set-up moves and priority attacks to accomplish this. It is imperative that The Breaker performs its necessary tasks of weakening and / or eliminating The Cleaner's checks because the Cleaner will otherwise be nearly useless in many situations. For example, if the opponent has a healthy Zapdos or Tangrowth, then the HO player's Hawlucha and Zygarde, respectively, will never pose a threat to the opponent.
" [Gyarados'] ability to surprise switchins and easily snowball boosts when holding a z-crystal makes for a terrifying late-game sweeper" - Leo
6. The Hazard Control
For teams that feature a lot of Pokemon that are threatened by Stealth Rock and other hazards, a form of hazard control can be a good option if it can be fit into the build. Without it, many attackers would be unable to pivot and / or set up safely due to losing health upon switching or from being slowed by Sticky Web or poisoned by Toxic Spikes. Rapid Spin is ideal for this role; unfortunately, Excadrill is the only viable Rapid Spin user in the tier. Defog, while tricky to fit onto offensive Pokemon, is a decent alternative for teams that are less reliant on stacking hazards. Some Pokemon rely on preventing the opponent from setting hazards, as mentioned in Role 1, due to Taunt, offensive pressure against common leads, and other options.
"just use this [Pelipper] in certain situations when it benefits you a lot like vs webs, multiple hazards or like I mentioned earlier if their hazard setter is dead"
- Jaina
7. The Defensive Counterplay
...Defensive options, on a HO team? The reality when battling is that things rarely go according to plan, and if the HO player begins to lose control of momentum then their chances of winning can disappear in an instant. It is therefore important that HO teams have some sort of counterplay against foes that can easily break their team. The alternative is finding out the hard way that "this team gets 6-0'd by Volcarona" or always losing to Ash-Greninja or Scarf Lele in the late-game. Pokemon that can manage such threats while remaining threats themselves are crucial to success.
"this [Mega Scizor] cuts through HO like a hot knife through butter too as they cannot deal with a Sciz simultaneously boosting Attack and Defense." - p2
Sample Cores
Zygarde + Mega Pinsir
Hawlucha + Tapu Koko
Pelipper + Kingdra + Mega Swampert
Mega Medicham + Greninja
Zygarde + Toxic Spikes
Mega Lopunny + Greninja
Mega Gyarados + Blacephalon
Tapu Bulu + Kartana
Serperior + Magearna
Mega Pinsir + Hawlucha
Mega Pinsir + Manaphy
Serperior + Sticky Web
Bisharp + Sticky Web
Hawlucha + Tapu Koko
Pelipper + Kingdra + Mega Swampert
Mega Medicham + Greninja
Zygarde + Toxic Spikes
Mega Lopunny + Greninja
Mega Gyarados + Blacephalon
Tapu Bulu + Kartana
Serperior + Magearna
Mega Pinsir + Hawlucha
Mega Pinsir + Manaphy
Serperior + Sticky Web
Bisharp + Sticky Web
Sample Teams
[insert here]
Not sure if it's really on the rise, but Ribombee seems to be making a splash in the OLT. Is it relevant on the ladder in general (I.e ought one to prepare for it)? It seems like it'd mostly be a pain for HO teams, which don't have much room for defog. It's blistering speed means it can't be taunted by Gren or Azelf, though Koko works. Still, if Koko doesn't fit on your team (e.g Psyspam), you're low on options. A dedicated lead like Excadrill could work, though it is dead weight outside of sticky web and stall match ups (it might get rocks up, but that's it).
I was thinking of using Aerodactyl myself, but it's not that good outside of this niche. "Counter" mons, like contrary and defiant users are cool, but the rest of your team is still gimped if webs are up.
I was thinking of using Aerodactyl myself, but it's not that good outside of this niche. "Counter" mons, like contrary and defiant users are cool, but the rest of your team is still gimped if webs are up.
Lol I can't believe this set I made in July actually became a set on Greninja's actual Smogon Page! Kudos to whoever wrote it!
While that is a pleasant surprise, I'd like to talk a little bit about both Zygarde and Greninja:
The two have become so diverse in sets, and part of their success as A+ mons comes from their ability to run so many sets. One truly doesn't know what type of Zygarde Set or Greninja Set is being run until they reveal their items, which usually results in some Pokemon being knocked out or damaged. I'd like to point out how difficult it can be to correctly predict a certain zygarde or greninja set. Does this make them S Tier mons? Not Necessarily, but it definitely defines the A+ Tier, as one can see how many sets the two can run.
not to rain on ur parade but beam/gunk/low kick/spikes has been used since SPL 8 week 1, albeit with orb (courtesy of Mr. BoomBang), while the Z set was used by multiple people during this year's OST and WCOP.
so this isnt a useless one liner; greninja is definitely far from S level qualities, zyg is arguable since it has like 8 extremely good sets altho i won't comment on it personally.
Oh really? Damn that’s cool, I don’t follow tournaments that often, I didn’t know my bad! which users used the set again?
I want to build my own team so first I have to know some metagame trends and most used mons and what does well against them thanks
Maybe you could look at the VR the high Ranks (S to A or A-) and read the analysis of the Pokemon listed there, this should be the most helpful I guess.
Your best bet is to make sure you have checks to popular Pokemon, such as Heatran, Mega Zam, Lando, and Ash-Gren. Of course, you also need to have a basic idea of what type of team you'll have: balance, offense, stall? There are also archetypes like rain, psyspam, and hazard stacking. There's also a teambuilding compendium, or role compendium thread, that can help you build a team. I think there's also a thread specifically to help build teams, but I could be wrong. Good luck!
I've recently been trying out z tailwind kartana
Kartana @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tailwind
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Swords Dance/ night slash/ smart strike
I know initially people thought it was a gimmicky set but after using it for a few days I can say it definitely puts in a lot of work against most architypes but really shines against balance and stall. Before I talk about the positives I want to address its weakness. The biggest issue with the set is its poor coverage if running swords dance and the time it takes to snowball if it's not.
You want swords dance because leaf blades damage output is ridiculous after a crit and at plus 2. Here are some calcs:
+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian on a critical hit: 340-401 (93.9 - 110.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna on a critical hit: 336-396 (92.5 - 109%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna on a critical hit: 252-297 (69.4 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos on a critical hit: 321-378 (83.8 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha on a critical hit: 359-423 (107.1 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega on a critical hit: 283-333 (94 - 110.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Scizor-Mega on a critical hit: 215-253 (62.6 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Celesteela on a critical hit: 304-358 (76.5 - 90.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
The downside to running swords dance alongside tailwind is the fact that it requires two turns to set up and has relatively poor coverage, but again to reiterate the poor coverage is offset by the damage output leaf blade puts out once it is set up.
On the other hand if you opt to run night slash or smart strike kartana operates similar to its choice scarf set with double the speed -enough to outrun hawlucha- and the ability to switch attacks, the crit multiplier provides an attack boost since leaf blade and night slash (if you opt to run it over smart strike) will always crit. When compared to its choice scarf set, the pros and cons of z tailwind kartana become more apparent, it functions akin to a sweeper with higher damage output allowing it to snowball easier, has more speed but it comes at the cost of loosing the ability to switch out for fear of relinquishing the crit multiplier. Further unlike choice scarf it does have less coverage as it cannot run both smart strike and night slash.
Here are some calcs for kartana without the sword dance boost but with the crit multiplier
-1 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian on a critical hit: 222-262 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian on a critical hit: 267-315 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian on a critical hit: 267-315 (73.7 - 87%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kartana Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian on a critical hit: 178-210 (49.1 - 58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kartana Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian on a critical hit: 176-208 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable on a critical hit: 249-294 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde on a critical hit: 241-285 (67.3 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
One thing I have not touched on, is the utility of z tailwind kartana. Tailwind has been a gimmicky move due to its short duration but when used late game Kartana is able to punch some final holes in a team and if it happens to faint it, you still have the speed boast for another teammate or if tailwind runs out you can just set it up again. One Pokémon who appreciates the utility of tailwind is mega alakazam. Mega alakazam is the flavour of the month at the moment and currently its most common set opts to use a modest nature over timid. This provides a notable increase in power but allows it to fall prey to being outsped and speed tying with ash-gren, other alakazams and is also outsped by mega lop. Z tailwind kartana supports alakazam by allowing it use a modest nature and allowing it to then outspeed choice scarfers and set up sweepers. Another mon that pair well with kartana is magnezone, as its ability to trap steels like celesteela, scizor and ferrothorn makes kartana time of sweeping that much easier. Compounding z tailwinds kartana’s utility, is its sheer unpredictability, already it is quite difficult to judge what set kartana’s running from team preview sure it’s not like Landorus-Therian where you just have no idea what its running but there is always that risk that you could misjudge it's set. This is favourable as I mentioned earlier running swords dance means it has to set up twice, but in practice this is not difficult as it easy lure and feint opponent with its set. for example if you can set up on mega alakazam by sacrificing a mon sending out kartana, opponent switches fearing choice scarf, set up tailwind for the speed and crit and proceed to ko or set up swords dance on their check.
All in all I would rank z Kartana in either A or A- as its sheer versatility in its ability to support its teammates or just steam role by setting up cannot be understated. It functions as an amalgamation of its swords dance and choice scarf sets, and as such can be played how you want depending on the opposition. Against offence you have a mon that can set up tailwind for another mon to sweep and against balance and stall it can just straight out overpower most mons through the power of crit leaf blade and sword dance plus it does not have to worry about being outsped against balance or stall as it more often than not will be fast enough to hit the opposing mon first, meaning you only have to set up once.
Some replays
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-794558655
In this replay Kartana is able to sweep using tailwind. The key thing here is that had it been the normal swords dance set it would have lost to zygarde and if it was the choice scarf set it would have lost to heatran because it wouldn’t have been able to switch attacks.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-794620555
In this replay kartana was able to break most of the opponents team and then later sweep
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-794738561
In this battle the utility of z tailwind kartana is shown. It put the opponent in a check mate postion, as it eventhough it didnt crit against magearna the tailwind provided alakazam the ability to outspeed choice scarf kartana
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-794745389
In this battle kartana again provided utility to the team by allowing mega zam to outspeed choice scarf keldeo
Kartana @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tailwind
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Swords Dance/ night slash/ smart strike
I know initially people thought it was a gimmicky set but after using it for a few days I can say it definitely puts in a lot of work against most architypes but really shines against balance and stall. Before I talk about the positives I want to address its weakness. The biggest issue with the set is its poor coverage if running swords dance and the time it takes to snowball if it's not.
You want swords dance because leaf blades damage output is ridiculous after a crit and at plus 2. Here are some calcs:
+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian on a critical hit: 340-401 (93.9 - 110.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna on a critical hit: 336-396 (92.5 - 109%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna on a critical hit: 252-297 (69.4 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos on a critical hit: 321-378 (83.8 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha on a critical hit: 359-423 (107.1 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega on a critical hit: 283-333 (94 - 110.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Scizor-Mega on a critical hit: 215-253 (62.6 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Celesteela on a critical hit: 304-358 (76.5 - 90.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
The downside to running swords dance alongside tailwind is the fact that it requires two turns to set up and has relatively poor coverage, but again to reiterate the poor coverage is offset by the damage output leaf blade puts out once it is set up.
On the other hand if you opt to run night slash or smart strike kartana operates similar to its choice scarf set with double the speed -enough to outrun hawlucha- and the ability to switch attacks, the crit multiplier provides an attack boost since leaf blade and night slash (if you opt to run it over smart strike) will always crit. When compared to its choice scarf set, the pros and cons of z tailwind kartana become more apparent, it functions akin to a sweeper with higher damage output allowing it to snowball easier, has more speed but it comes at the cost of loosing the ability to switch out for fear of relinquishing the crit multiplier. Further unlike choice scarf it does have less coverage as it cannot run both smart strike and night slash.
Here are some calcs for kartana without the sword dance boost but with the crit multiplier
-1 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian on a critical hit: 222-262 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian on a critical hit: 267-315 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian on a critical hit: 267-315 (73.7 - 87%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kartana Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian on a critical hit: 178-210 (49.1 - 58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kartana Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian on a critical hit: 176-208 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable on a critical hit: 249-294 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde on a critical hit: 241-285 (67.3 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
One thing I have not touched on, is the utility of z tailwind kartana. Tailwind has been a gimmicky move due to its short duration but when used late game Kartana is able to punch some final holes in a team and if it happens to faint it, you still have the speed boast for another teammate or if tailwind runs out you can just set it up again. One Pokémon who appreciates the utility of tailwind is mega alakazam. Mega alakazam is the flavour of the month at the moment and currently its most common set opts to use a modest nature over timid. This provides a notable increase in power but allows it to fall prey to being outsped and speed tying with ash-gren, other alakazams and is also outsped by mega lop. Z tailwind kartana supports alakazam by allowing it use a modest nature and allowing it to then outspeed choice scarfers and set up sweepers. Another mon that pair well with kartana is magnezone, as its ability to trap steels like celesteela, scizor and ferrothorn makes kartana time of sweeping that much easier. Compounding z tailwinds kartana’s utility, is its sheer unpredictability, already it is quite difficult to judge what set kartana’s running from team preview sure it’s not like Landorus-Therian where you just have no idea what its running but there is always that risk that you could misjudge it's set. This is favourable as I mentioned earlier running swords dance means it has to set up twice, but in practice this is not difficult as it easy lure and feint opponent with its set. for example if you can set up on mega alakazam by sacrificing a mon sending out kartana, opponent switches fearing choice scarf, set up tailwind for the speed and crit and proceed to ko or set up swords dance on their check.
All in all I would rank z Kartana in either A or A- as its sheer versatility in its ability to support its teammates or just steam role by setting up cannot be understated. It functions as an amalgamation of its swords dance and choice scarf sets, and as such can be played how you want depending on the opposition. Against offence you have a mon that can set up tailwind for another mon to sweep and against balance and stall it can just straight out overpower most mons through the power of crit leaf blade and sword dance plus it does not have to worry about being outsped against balance or stall as it more often than not will be fast enough to hit the opposing mon first, meaning you only have to set up once.
Some replays
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-794558655
In this replay Kartana is able to sweep using tailwind. The key thing here is that had it been the normal swords dance set it would have lost to zygarde and if it was the choice scarf set it would have lost to heatran because it wouldn’t have been able to switch attacks.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-794620555
In this replay kartana was able to break most of the opponents team and then later sweep
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-794738561
In this battle the utility of z tailwind kartana is shown. It put the opponent in a check mate postion, as it eventhough it didnt crit against magearna the tailwind provided alakazam the ability to outspeed choice scarf kartana
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-794745389
In this battle kartana again provided utility to the team by allowing mega zam to outspeed choice scarf keldeo
Attachments
Last edited:
HCJB
Banned deucer.
As mentioned in the underrated sets thread, I already covered Z-Tailwind earlier in that same thread quite some time ago (here). And Ske already had an effective and great non-Z Tailwind set way before that - point being none of this is very new to the meta. Still, maybe it's hitting a new niche in the current state of the meta compared to when Ske first made his set and I posted about the niche follow-up you're bring up here.
I guess discussion is never a bad thing, but it's certainly a good idea when it's a known set to try and explain why its relevance has now increased.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned deucer.
I haven't been able to really get into the meta game since phermo,s ban where I got high on the ladder kind of building solid stall
Right now I've wanted to play a more offense balance. I feel like I don't understand the metagame like I used to even when I read, watch, and theorycraft
Like having hazards, steel type, win cons are important.
But it seems like cores are not allowed to fail in the meta just due to all the snowball sweepers
And for win cons I haven't really hard commuted to building around them like in the past
I'd say I need a scarf user and slap kart on it and that honestly isn't exactly terrible.
What is the philosophy of the ou meta for team building?
Right now I've wanted to play a more offense balance. I feel like I don't understand the metagame like I used to even when I read, watch, and theorycraft
Like having hazards, steel type, win cons are important.
But it seems like cores are not allowed to fail in the meta just due to all the snowball sweepers
And for win cons I haven't really hard commuted to building around them like in the past
I'd say I need a scarf user and slap kart on it and that honestly isn't exactly terrible.
What is the philosophy of the ou meta for team building?
I'd like to talk about Clefable in this post because it has steadily been getting worse since(and during) OLT.
Wish on Clefable is very easy to punish nowadays because dangerous Pokemon such as Mega Mawile, Reuniclus, Heatran, and Tapu Bulu, which you generally don't want to create free turns for, get free turns. These Pokemon are also the reason why Calm Mind isn't very good on Clefable anymore either, it lets these Pokemon in for free, and is often just forced out. Calm Mind doesn't have a very good stall matchup anymore either, stall has adapted to its presence by running Pokemon such as Celesteela, Volcarona, Moltres, or Pyukumuku, which can pretty much invalidate its influence. Furthermore, Calm Mind sets are also very pressed on moveslots, Clefable wants Moonblast, Soft-Boiled, and Calm Mind, which leaves room for just 1 slot, where it has to pick out of many moves, such as Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, Knock Off, or even Thunder. The problem with this is that Clefable will have to choose between utility, or having a chance to beat up Toxapex, which is currently very common, and often is capable of fucking up Clefable's chances. On the topic of Toxapex, Toxapex has been running Knock Off more recently, which is especially bad for Clefable because Clefable needs Leftovers to have a shot at checking Zygarde, which is often paired with Toxapex.
e: @ post below
Just to clear this up, I don't think Clefable is bad, I just don't think Clefable is as good as it was before. I only adressed Wish and Calm Mind because these are the main sets that have been run for a while, I think that Thunder Wave is the best Clefable to run right now. You're definitely right that the listed stall Pokemon, apart from Pyukumuku because it often runs Rest, don't want to switch into Thunder Wave, but they will still be able to beat Clefable unless it gets really lucky.
Wish on Clefable is very easy to punish nowadays because dangerous Pokemon such as Mega Mawile, Reuniclus, Heatran, and Tapu Bulu, which you generally don't want to create free turns for, get free turns. These Pokemon are also the reason why Calm Mind isn't very good on Clefable anymore either, it lets these Pokemon in for free, and is often just forced out. Calm Mind doesn't have a very good stall matchup anymore either, stall has adapted to its presence by running Pokemon such as Celesteela, Volcarona, Moltres, or Pyukumuku, which can pretty much invalidate its influence. Furthermore, Calm Mind sets are also very pressed on moveslots, Clefable wants Moonblast, Soft-Boiled, and Calm Mind, which leaves room for just 1 slot, where it has to pick out of many moves, such as Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, Knock Off, or even Thunder. The problem with this is that Clefable will have to choose between utility, or having a chance to beat up Toxapex, which is currently very common, and often is capable of fucking up Clefable's chances. On the topic of Toxapex, Toxapex has been running Knock Off more recently, which is especially bad for Clefable because Clefable needs Leftovers to have a shot at checking Zygarde, which is often paired with Toxapex.
e: @ post below
Just to clear this up, I don't think Clefable is bad, I just don't think Clefable is as good as it was before. I only adressed Wish and Calm Mind because these are the main sets that have been run for a while, I think that Thunder Wave is the best Clefable to run right now. You're definitely right that the listed stall Pokemon, apart from Pyukumuku because it often runs Rest, don't want to switch into Thunder Wave, but they will still be able to beat Clefable unless it gets really lucky.
Last edited:
I mean it's quite clear that Wish and Calm Mind arent doing so hot rn but that doesnt mean we should just toss or dismiss it as bad which honestly the majority is prone to this kind of bandwagonning "> omg"defensive" scarf lando is so bad > offensive is so broken and threatening oml> rarely uses so called broken ungodly threat as an example of this.
If CM is so bad rn, why does it need to run it? You have stuff like Reun for that. SR + Twave and SR + Flamethrower are both fine right now as they exploit common trends and switchins like Ferro, Bulu Heatran, Maw, Reun, the likes. Better not use smth like "o just play around it bro"
Isnt the price of using Knock Pex losing an important utility move too?
(Also idt any of those stall mons like swapping in2 paralysis)
Tldr: Clef is honestly still a fine mon that works and is highly adaptable to metagame states in SM, which it has always done regardless of trends which makes it such a good mon in the first place
If CM is so bad rn, why does it need to run it? You have stuff like Reun for that. SR + Twave and SR + Flamethrower are both fine right now as they exploit common trends and switchins like Ferro, Bulu Heatran, Maw, Reun, the likes. Better not use smth like "o just play around it bro"
Isnt the price of using Knock Pex losing an important utility move too?
(Also idt any of those stall mons like swapping in2 paralysis)
Tldr: Clef is honestly still a fine mon that works and is highly adaptable to metagame states in SM, which it has always done regardless of trends which makes it such a good mon in the first place
Last edited:
I would like to talk about Zeraora, I haven't seen too much, but I feel like he has no counter, he looks like a great late game sweeper to me and a good wincon for most teams.
Is Zeraora actually good?
Is Zeraora actually good?
The "no counter notion" is false. Its pretty much stopped by every grass type and ground type. I think you could justify using it, but its not a top tier threat. It still faces stiff competition from Tapu koko since koko has a better physical movepool and ability. It has a niche because its really fast and has a good matchup versus offense, but I would not call it "good" imo. For most teams, I would recommend Koko over it. At the same time, koko has done this to literally every electric type in the game as its just plan better than every other electric type in the vast majority of situations.
Edit: Lando and gliscor cant stop it, but hippo is an extremely hard counter
Zera's decent on certain offensive teams but it does suffer from being frail and really needing to predict to be effective, particularly because of how ubiquitous AV Tangrowth and Scarf Lando-T are. A single missed prediction is going to cost a turn and 10% of your health at best, especially given that mons like Gastrodon, Charizard X, Quagsire, Hippowdon, M-Latios, and M-Scizor can force it to waste turns, depending on what coverage moves it's running. When paired with other fast mons like Protean Greninja it's reasonably effective at breaking down Tang/Torn cores on offense and it's rarely mentioned that it can run Taunt to keep Clefable or other stallers from being effective, but its frailty makes it less enticing than other Taunt users like Torn-T. Its speed tier is obviously great and it prevents offensive teams that rely on Zygarde, Gyarados, Sub/CM Blacephalon, and Protean/Sash Greninja from setting up once in play, but the benefits of using it are are low when it's so weak to defensive teams that can play around it. It's usually hard to justify Zera when there are so many other late-game cleaners available like Ash-Gren, Scarf Kart, Volcarona, Gyarados, or even M-Zam. It also really needs Life Orb to be offensively threatening, which makes its weaknesses to all types of hazards and status even worse, and it doesn't help that none of the aforementioned mons need LO (and the associated HP cost) to be effective.
All in all, it's fine and only a few things really hard-counter it, but the same can be said of Victini or Mew, whose expansive movepools and otherwise crippling flaws make it hard to build teams around them.
That's not true at all, and there's a reason why Banded is one of Zeraora's main sets. While Koko does have access to U-turn (wish Zeraora had this...) and Brave Bird, and Terrain-boosted (Z-) Wild Charge is stronger, Zeraora has Fire Punch for Ferrothorn, AV Tangrowth (2HKOs after rocks) and Tapu Bulu, Knock Off to do good damage to Mega Alakazam and the Mega Latis while removing Lando's Scarf and Hippowdon's Leftovers on the switch (seriously, Knock Off is so spammable on Zeraora early-mid game), and Close Combat for Heatran, Chansey and Tyranitar. I still recommend using Koko over Zeraora given the chance, but I wouldn't downplay its movepool. It's not as bad as you think it is.
Tbh I will never use zeraora over tapukoko for 2 reason: koko is a fairy and every Ou team needs a solid answer to toxapex, so when u realize zeraora loses to pex if scald burns u quickly change it to tapukoko. Also koko has got defog and roost, so it can deal with pex forever and prevent it from laying tspikes. U can argue that "just pair zeraora with lele or zam or latios" but 1) they dont synergize very well 2) u want to optimize role compression . That's why being fairy makes koko waaay better since it can be ur hawlucha+darktype resist (mandatory in OU otherwise gren ash wins) while dealing with pex as I said before. Zeraora wallbreaks but has 0.00 defensive utility , and mons like these are not worth using when u want to check as many things as possible (and zeraora is not even remotely a koko check as some people say, maybe Vs the shuca berry set but u dont want to switchin take rocks damage and get uturned on. Dazzling gleam still exists too)
But physical Tapu Koko isn't common with the exception of like U-turn and Wild Charge, and Zeraora has a better physical movepool than Tapu Koko. It gets stuff like Fire Punch, Knock Off and Close Combat
So... Basically you would just use Zeraora in case you need a physical wallbreaker thats also really fast, and obviously if it fits your team.
It's not a good wallbreaker. It's only advantage is outspeeding fast pokemon. If it was electric/fighting it would be so much better, but it's just a decent fast pokemon.
However, a pokemon that is very good in the metagame is Charizard Y. Due to its vast movepool, the only true counter is chansey. It's probably the best special wallbreaker in the game. Also with its drought ability, it simultaneously checks rain, sand, and aurora veil.
However, a pokemon that is very good in the metagame is Charizard Y. Due to its vast movepool, the only true counter is chansey. It's probably the best special wallbreaker in the game. Also with its drought ability, it simultaneously checks rain, sand, and aurora veil.
I agree charizard is good, but u forgot to mention pex and zygarde. Zygarde isnt a counter but its a Damn good switch in barring HP Ice shenanigans. But yeah, teams that dont have pex or chancey tend to not have switch ins to this thing.
Only defensive Zygarde can switch in. Banded takes about 50 percent from Fire Blast. Also Dragon Dance/Earthquake can beat Toxapex without haze. (Which is not a terrible set as it turns Charizard into something that destroys offense.)
- Status