I hate to make this a 1 liner, but I'm pretty sure he meant offensive lando.
-1 252+ Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 196-232 (61.4 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Finchinator
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-1 252+ Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 196-232 (61.4 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I did mean Defensive Lando, should have been more clear. That being said, Lando is easy to wear down through teammates like Zygarde and Mega Medicham, and Stakataka can even wear down Lando itself before attempting a sweep, so Defensive Lando isn’t a great reason for Stakataka to drop.
Hi dude, just as a heads up, I think you’re taking the usage argument out of context and I think false’s post was one of the few noms that bring up stats as a back up that does this properly since he made sure to explain why Stakataka isn’t as good in the current meta, which has led to its fall in usage both on the ladder and in tour play. He also used a bigger sample size being 8 spl weeks so far as opposed to the small sample size you used for Kartana (a single week) which really sets appart his drop argument from your counter-argument. This isn’t a callout post whatsoever I’m just trying to point out why I think this was a case of usage stats being actually productive in an argument, something a lot of users fail to do. Also taking this as an opportunity to give everyone props for how smoothly the thread’s been running for the last day or 2, good stuff
the cool thing about mimikyu is that it's basically a catch-all for offensive setup mons. the other scarfers you listed all have specific mons they can't revenge kill. shift gear magearna for example beats every one of the scarfers you mentioned (and jolly lucha) without considerable prior damage, while ghostium z mimikyu can pick it off from 75%.
the other thing about scarfers is that in the offense vs. offense matchup, they can get some revenge kills, sure. but since they get locked into one attack, they basically invite the next mon to come in and set up, and chances are that this next mon is going to be getting some kills of its own. hyper offense teams aren't exactly known for handling opposing setup mons like +2 mega pinsir.
mimikyu's a weak mon. but it doesn't just give free setup opportunities like say scarf gren locked into rock slide. "keeping disguise up" isn't really an argument either considering that since you're using hyper offense, you're not going to be hard switching mimikyu in.
so yeah basically mimikyu acts as a really useful catch-all on offense teams. yeah it can't accomplish much against defensive squads, but it's done its job as long as it's prevented that threatening zygarde/hawlucha/whatever the kids use these days from sweeping your team. b- is fine for it because it's one of the best mons on hyper offense, which is mediocre but definitely not unusable in the current meta.
Some of U folks need to realize that a Pokemon is ranked because of how effective its niche is, not really for its overall value as a pokemon even when disregarding its niche... U got a lot of setup sweepers in the metagame right now and that's what Mimikyu's niche is: a check to them guys in that it pressures opponents to avoid setting up because you can't be OHKOed instantly... Mimikyu outside of its niche is a chumpish mon and I think y'all are considering both how it has a niche but outside of its niche it's ineffective mostly... Mimikyu has a nice lil role in the metagame and I think if you just focus on how well it performs its role in the metagame and relevant its niche is rather than how it's bad outside of its niche then you'll realize there's a reason it's ranked and ranked where it is... nobody gets hard-ons for any sort of pokemon in this meta lol if the shoe fits it fits that's how you're supposed to go about teambuilding anyway
The issue with mimkyu is that the good Ho argument falls flat when you realise the idea of hyper offense is to spam set up sweepers and wincons. Sure, revenge the Sg mag and loose to hawlucha/dd Zygarde/dd regular gyra (mega wins anyways lul). Anyways, I stated that I was done talking about this mon but I'll leave it at the fact that mimkyus niche only holds up versus Ho teams with only one set up sweeper, as vs balance with a setup sweeper you just get walled by a wall. It still has a niche but that niche is not large enough to justify b- lmao.the cool thing about mimikyu is that it's basically a catch-all for offensive setup mons. the other scarfers you listed all have specific mons they can't revenge kill. shift gear magearna for example beats every one of the scarfers you mentioned (and jolly lucha) without considerable prior damage, while ghostium z mimikyu can pick it off from 75%.
the other thing about scarfers is that in the offense vs. offense matchup, they can get some revenge kills, sure. but since they get locked into one attack, they basically invite the next mon to come in and set up, and chances are that this next mon is going to be getting some kills of its own. hyper offense teams aren't exactly known for handling opposing setup mons like +2 mega pinsir.
mimikyu's a weak mon. but it doesn't just give free setup opportunities like say scarf gren locked into rock slide. "keeping disguise up" isn't really an argument either considering that since you're using hyper offense, you're not going to be hard switching mimikyu in.
so yeah basically mimikyu acts as a really useful catch-all on offense teams. yeah it can't accomplish much against defensive squads, but it's done its job as long as it's prevented that threatening zygarde/hawlucha/whatever the kids use these days from sweeping your team. b- is fine for it because it's one of the best mons on hyper offense, which is mediocre but definitely not unusable in the current meta.
If your HO team needs Mimikyu for every single set up sweeper in the tier, then it's not a good HO team. Yes, you can rely on Mimikyu to force out / revenge kill some set up sweepers but it shouldn't be your answer to all of them.
Think it is time to add Mimikyu to the Blacklist and focus on other Pokemon that need to rise or fall.
Like S- Magearna. >:(
Also in agreement with S- Koko. It is one of the best offensive pivots the tier has to offer next to Scarf Lando-T. Shuca has been very potent within SPL and Specs has pulled its fair share of weight. In terms of influence Koko definitely feels roughly on the same level as Toxapex and Kartana (influence as in they are major Pokemon put into many teams and a Pokemon teams need to take account for).
Anyways, I'd like to make a nom so this post isn't useless.
Washtom to B
Rotom-Wash is a prime example of new toy syndrome with defog and now that the hype has died down, it's time for this thing to drop. Wash-tom falls into a similar pitfall to tapu fini in not having reliable recovery and failing to abuse it's decent bulk and great typing due to meta trends. Wash-tom needs wilo-wisp if it wants to be an effective physical wall, while wanting defog and it's dual stab of hydro and volt switch to not be food for common pokemon that resist one stab but not the other. This leaves wash-tom to comparable four slot syndrome to other B ranks such as mew, mantine, and mega latias.
Rotom is a bad defogger due to being consistently worn down and being prone to status moves. This pokemon can't check common physical sweepers and breakers such as the rising av bulu, hawlucha (dies to +2 hjk), zygarde, kartana, smack down (fly z) lando, mega zard x, etc. Washtom also cannot switch into ash-greninja, lopunny, medicham, hoopa-u, physical koko, etc. Rotom wash struggles to fulfill it's roll as a pivot or a good physical wall due to immense power creep and the amount of pokemon it can't touch. Even toxapex shrugs off this thing's volt switch and gets up toxic spikes.
tldr: Rotom wash should drop due to being outclassed as a defogger by gliscor, zapdos, torn-t, latios, etc. Rotom struggles to check rising physical attackers and is food for any special attacker.
The good ol' calculator:
Rotom is outclassed in everything it checks, I see no reason to use this over something like volt switch zapdos or tyranitar as a heatran check or, just, anything else. It's niche is a kyrum-black check that's also a defogger but that niche is not large enough for B+ in a long shot. Your new toy is bad, sorry.
Mod edit: Mimikyu is blacklisted for a reason
Washtom to B
Rotom-Wash is a prime example of new toy syndrome with defog and now that the hype has died down, it's time for this thing to drop. Wash-tom falls into a similar pitfall to tapu fini in not having reliable recovery and failing to abuse it's decent bulk and great typing due to meta trends. Wash-tom needs wilo-wisp if it wants to be an effective physical wall, while wanting defog and it's dual stab of hydro and volt switch to not be food for common pokemon that resist one stab but not the other. This leaves wash-tom to comparable four slot syndrome to other B ranks such as mew, mantine, and mega latias.
Rotom is a bad defogger due to being consistently worn down and being prone to status moves. This pokemon can't check common physical sweepers and breakers such as the rising av bulu, hawlucha (dies to +2 hjk), zygarde, kartana, smack down (fly z) lando, mega zard x, etc. Washtom also cannot switch into ash-greninja, lopunny, medicham, hoopa-u, physical koko, etc. Rotom wash struggles to fulfill it's roll as a pivot or a good physical wall due to immense power creep and the amount of pokemon it can't touch. Even toxapex shrugs off this thing's volt switch and gets up toxic spikes.
tldr: Rotom wash should drop due to being outclassed as a defogger by gliscor, zapdos, torn-t, latios, etc. Rotom struggles to check rising physical attackers and is food for any special attacker.
The good ol' calculator:
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Rotom-Wash: 157-186 (51.8 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Rotom-Wash: 204-241 (67.3 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Rotom-Wash: 262-310 (86.4 - 102.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Rotom-Wash: 253-298 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
60+ Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Rotom-Wash in Grassy Terrain: 254-300 (83.8 - 99%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Return vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Rotom-Wash: 162-191 (53.4 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 157-186 (51.8 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash in Electric Terrain: 252-297 (83.1 - 98%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Rotom-Wash: 192-228 (63.3 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Rotom-Wash: 204-241 (67.3 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Rotom-Wash: 262-310 (86.4 - 102.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Rotom-Wash: 253-298 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
60+ Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Rotom-Wash in Grassy Terrain: 254-300 (83.8 - 99%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Return vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Rotom-Wash: 162-191 (53.4 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 157-186 (51.8 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash in Electric Terrain: 252-297 (83.1 - 98%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Rotom-Wash: 192-228 (63.3 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Mod edit: Mimikyu is blacklisted for a reason
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He can't check kyube because of moldbreaker Earth power or Z-freeze shock
I Dissagree with this nom. While yes, fini isn't that great of a pure defogger, its more of a support 'mon, able to use support moves like defog, taunt, nature's madness (to weaken 'mons so sweeprs can bust through then more easily ), as well as having misty terrrain. As a result, it shuts down stall/fat 'mons for 5 turns, which allows setup sweepers to swich in, set up, and potentialy win the game. As for a trapper, fini is rarely (if ever) used as one.
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Yeah Azumarill is the far superior trapper. I agree, I may hate Fini, but it does still have a relevancy that is mirrored in B-. Now there are better defog mons, but Fine still serves as a somewhat reliable bulky water type who can force out Meta Mons like Heatran or Physdef Lando-T. And while she may not be as good with defog, she can't be poisoned like most defoggers thanks to the terrain. Keep in B-.
WaifuTapu Fini B=> C+
I Dissagree with this nom. While yes, fini isn't that great of a pure defogger, its more of a support 'mon, able to use support moves like defog, taunt, nature's madness (to weaken 'mons so sweeprs can set up), as well as having misty terrrain. As a result, it shuts down stall/fat 'mons for 5 turns, which allows setup sweepers to swich in, set up, and potentialy win the game. As for a trapper, fini is rarely (if ever) used as one.
Tapu Fini from B- -> C+
Disagree with this, though Tapu Fini is certainly not great and faces a lot of competition. It has a couple of niches that other foggers don't have, mostly that it can both swap in on Ash-Greninja, Defog its Spikes if it chooses to use that move, and provide some offensive utility after the fact. Moonblast keeps Tapu Koko, Lele, and Zygarde off the field, Surf keeps wayward Heatrans and Volcaronas in check, Nature's Madness chips everything and Taunt prevents the switch-in from setting up hazards if they're ballsy enough to try that.
It also has some cool defensive niches in the current meta. For one, Fini's a Heatran switch in, something no other Ash-Gren counter can boast outside of maybe Mantine, who can get beat by Toxic/Taunt/Protect (though it's unclear why you'd sack your Heatran to kill something as weak as Mantine). Magma Storm doesn't do enough damage to be truly threatening, SR isn't good if you're running Defog, its most common Z-move (Tectonic Rage) does at best 50% if you're uninvested in SpDef, and Surf is plenty of firepower to scare the bug out, unlike Pex's Scald. Tapu Fini also checks some other mons that nothing else effectively checks: it can check Zard X Roost sets, Buzzwole can't even come close to hurting it unless it carries the suboptimal Poison Jab, and it hard walls Keldeo even if it runs HP Electric or CM+Taunt, something that Ash-Gren's switch-ins again can't guarantee. Last, Fini has the Whirpool/Taunt or CM/Taunt sets if you can somehow make sense of running those, like someone said above Fini's not a great trapper for a lot of reasons.
In short, I say Fini's bad but not Azumarill/Shuckle/Manaphy/Thundurus bad. It's got a job, it's not great at it, but it's not as bad or niche as Manectric or Alolan Marowak.
Hoopa-U A- -> B+nominationshoopa-u a- to b+
hoopa-u has been used only 4 times in spl thus far. that's the lowest usage rate of any of the 24 pokemon comprising the a-subrank. to add to that, all 4 of hoopa-u's uses came in the first 2 weeks, and the only match it won was one in which hoopa-u never touched the field. hoopa-u is without a doubt a fearsome wallbreaker, but it faces stiff competition from ash-greninja, tyranitar, and weavile all of which provide additional benefits beyond wallbreaking prowess that usually lead to them being superior options. its low speed and susceptibility to all forms of hazards make it a tough pick in the offense matchup and when facing bulkier it usually has to muscle through multiple bulky steels, a fairy, and even sometimes a pursuit trapper like weavile (which has experienced a bump in usage throughout recent weeks). i don't intend to undersell hoopa-u too much because it's still a good pokemon, but i think the recent lack of usage combined with the heavy competition for the slot it occupies should at least warrant some discussion.
Gotta disagree with this argument for two reasons, the first being that none of your observations are particularly new enough to warrant a drop. Ash-Gren, Tyranitar, and Weavile have always been around, granted there were a lot more Weaviles in last week's SPL. Also, Drain Punch and Focus Blast are complete shutdowns to a Tyranitar switch in. Second, we're talking only about 5 weeks of SPL, which is a pretty small sample size when it comes down to it. For a counter example, I'm seeing like 5 uses of Volcarona in all of this season of SPL, most of which were also in the first couple weeks. Volcarona's obviously an A/A+ mon depending on who you ask. Just because something doesn't get used in SPL every week doesn't mean it should drop a rank.
Same goes for Hoopa-U, it's obviously no Volcarona but it's no slouch either. NP + Fight-Z is a nightmare for stall and can get some really important kills against balance too. Trick Choice Band can be huge too, essentially neutering most walls. I've even seen Physical Firium-Z work as a Ferrothorn/Magearna/Scizor lure. In short, Hoopa-U is versatile enough to break any wall in the tier if it wants to and can punish players heavily for trying to scout it and being wrong. With Volt/Turn support it can get into play a little easier and work its magic, and with Defog it's not so weak to hazards, though its speed tier does keep it below most other offensive Pokemon in the VR.
If you want to know the source, here is the link: https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/magearna/
Magearna is probably one of the best pivots in OU. It works really well as an offensive stat because it may not be fast, but the bulk really helps it out + a solid movepool. Assault Vest is the best one to use at this point, so I will go into further detail with that set.
It acts like a good swap-in "bomb", with Fluer Cannon putting in heavy work on some OU pokemon that do not resist the type or are not special walls. Assault Vest Magearna is a good check to Ash-Greninja and Tapu Lele, who are one of the best special attackers in OU. Also compared to other Pokemon in the A+ tier, its problems are not that bad. Sure it dislikes types that it is weak to and special walls, but that is better than some other problems with Pokemon in the A+ tier like Ferrothorn, who gets checked hard by fire types or Hawluncha who is very fragile to priority moves. Magearna likes the Blacepheon hype dying down and Hawluncha rising in popularity in OU. I would say that Magearna is the best Fairy type in OU easily. Fluer Cannon stab from it is something to fear. All though the AV-set dislikes Toxapex, it does do good work against others in OU.
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Electric Terrain: 118-139 (32.5 - 38.2%) -- 96.7% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 120-144 (33 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 242-288 (66.6 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 168-198 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 133-157 (36.6 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 120-144 (33 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 242-288 (66.6 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 168-198 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 133-157 (36.6 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
I am honestly happy with sending Ash-Greninja, Magearna and Tapu Koko from A+ to S- tier.
I think the issue with magerna and the reason it hasn't gone s- rank yet is this crippling lack of any recovery. A lack of recovery makes switching into specs lele and ash greninja and other special attackers repeatedly difficult, especially with rocks and hazards up. Now, it's still a good blanket check but it's weakness to chip damage and teams with more than one special attacker makes it unworthy of s- atm, especially with the rise of heatran. I don't see how the rise of hawlucha benefits magerna as +2 hjk kills with chip damage.A+ to S-: Highly Agree
If you want to know the source, here is the link: https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/magearna/
Magearna is probably one of the best pivots in OU. It works really well as an offensive stat because it may not be fast, but the bulk really helps it out + a solid movepool. Assault Vest is the best one to use at this point, so I will go into further detail with that set.
It acts like a good swap-in "bomb", with Fluer Cannon putting in heavy work on some OU pokemon that do not resist the type or are not special walls. Assault Vest Magearna is a good check to Ash-Greninja and Tapu Lele, who are one of the best special attackers in OU. Also compared to other Pokemon in the A+ tier, its problems are not that bad. Sure it dislikes types that it is weak to and special walls, but that is better than some other problems with Pokemon in the A+ tier like Ferrothorn, who gets checked hard by fire types or Hawluncha who is very fragile to priority moves. Magearna likes the Blacepheon hype dying down and Hawluncha rising in popularity in OU. I would say that Magearna is the best Fairy type in OU easily. Fluer Cannon stab from it is something to fear. All though the AV-set dislikes Toxapex, it does do good work against others in OU.
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna in Electric Terrain: 118-139 (32.5 - 38.2%) -- 96.7% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 120-144 (33 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 242-288 (66.6 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 168-198 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 133-157 (36.6 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
I am honestly happy with sending Ash-Greninja, Magearna and Tapu Koko from A+ to S- tier.
Tldr: magerna is a great pokemon but it's weakness to repeated switch ins to the pokemon it checks makes it worthy of a+, not s-.
Magearna would not go to S- solely on the AV set (also please at the above post with the nom do not post calcs for a nomination unless necessary). Magearna would be S- on the combination of its offensive and defensive value. Shift Gear sets are very potent against many teams at the moment unless the teams have a Mega Venusaur, AV Growth, AV Amoonguss, AV Magearna, Chansey, or Gastrodon. Quagsire too I guess, but those are usually on stall builds with Chansey. By themselves, AV and Shift Gear may not seem like S- material. Combined in terms of viability and potency, I feel they're enough to push Magearna up.
Also notice that many of these Pokemon are a lot less effective against Magearna if AV is Knocked Off.
Shift Gear sets have been mad threatening in some of the matches that it has shown itself this SPL.
Side note - Stakataka should definitely be C. It is not good.
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I know Magearna would go to S- because of not only the AV set, I just wanted to mention that set exclusively for now because it was the most used one right now. I do agree with your post though, all sets can be a help to it actually. Good point.
The calculations were to prove the AV set's bulk so it can withstand a majority of the popular Pokemon in OU. Sorry if I did not add enough context in them. I will try to make my calculations more necessary.
I do agree that Stakataka is bad in general. I think the new game "hype" caused it's B- placing in the OU meta-game, but as the meta game matured and more things were discovered, Stakataka got worse in general. Stakataka is not worth using especially when it relies on Trick Room too much or else it dies to Heatran Earth Power or Landorous-T Eathquake or a strong fighting type user like Mega Medicham. It actually seems quite frail if you see Fighting or Ground type Pokemon or moves in the team. It can be a dangerous sweeper, but it needs too much protection and set-up to start the sweep. I just do not see it two tiers above Pokemon that are not that useful yet have some kind of niche like Alakzam and Nidoking.
Amoonguss is a pretty solid metagame call right now being able to compress answering the likes of prominent top tier mons like Kartana, Tapu Koko and Greninja easily (yeah it volts but that's not the end of the world, spore or stun spore can get the momentum back to you with some smart play (spore on a non grounded ofc). It's definitely the best out of the pack in B- (aside from this next nom) and I think B would be a great place to slap it in (AV is also a thing fwiw).
Jirachi should definitely rise from B- to B or even B+ if you wanna push it, being the most reliable Tapu Lele switch in the tier is huge, role compression with SR and being able to keep momentum is quite strong. It also fits itself in both offense in stall with Healing Wish, or Wish/Protect as a nice utility glue for both playstyles (and the fact that it also just actually beats Lele for stall one slot while stuff like Gliscor which naturally fit deal with Heatran).
I'm not sure if they're planning to remove this, but if they aren't, this is definitely an old relic, it doesn't provide anything notable enough to even warrant the C- slot, and there's a hundred better options on what it actually gives to a team (be it a better mega, a better utility mon, a better dragon dancer) etc without losing the opportunity cost of using a mega (even though that's not as important as it is in SM but is worth mentioning.)
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It does KO with LO, a set that's definitely viable with Bulu support reducing the recoil - nothing likes switching into an LO boosted gyro ball, and LO stone edge still 2hko's sp def toxapex.
I'm not going to sit here and say Stakataka is some meta defining threat. Stak is in B-, meaning it can put in work but it needs heavy team support (Magnezone/Bulu). I think the Landorus matchup is more of a glass half full situation; Landorus loses half its health upon switch in to non-LO, meaning Stak pairs nicely with stuff that likes Landorus chipped (Zygarde being a great example). Stakataka also heavily punishes choiced Lele. I think it's fine where it's at, it's a niche late game sweeper/breaker that isn't THAT hard to build around (bulu and zone). I think Stak is just right at home among Serperior, Victini and Volcanion- matchup dependant stuff that has the potential to put in a ton of work.
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Thunder Pwoell
Banned deucer.
I nominate Avalugg the king to go from UR -> C-. For starters, it has ridiculous defensive utility with 95/184. its one of the only mons thats a kyu-b counter and can come in on icium z. Even having it there causes some teams to be wary of it. Even if its weak to rocks it rarely cares. Specs secret sword isn't doing much, eq from lando is doing dirt, and you can actually oko heatran with eq. In addition to being the ultimate Kyu-B counter, it has sturdy! Which means you can get some nice kills with avalanche or recover. It's on you. You wall weavile, which is key, and you win 1v1 vs pex and ferro. You oko the lati twins. It's easy to pressure if given mono special attackers but its great to have in the back. I've even swept teams with avalugg.
As per conformity, here are the replays,
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-714420405 def lugg having a "bad" matchup it swept in high ladder
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-714344269 lugg + primarina shit on rain
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-714353220 kyub counter + study getting rid of rocks
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-714360649 didnt rapid spin bc i wanted heatran gone but broke up the lando heatran core by okoing tran
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-714410075 lugg shitting on ho in high ladder
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-714415631 kart the "counter" trying to take it on and even with z move it kills itself
Sincerly,
Omari P rank #4 elo
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Okay before I start explaining why Avalugg is irrelevant, I want to say you didn’t do a bad job explaining your reasonings for it being a potential threat. But you didn’t explain it’s massive drawbacks besides being pressured by special attackers like.
-It’s terrible defensive typing
-Has to swap into rocks in order to spin them away and has to keep Sturdy in order
-Beats Landorus but fails to beat mostly every other relevant rocker like Mega-Ttar.
-And no it doesn’t beat Pex. If Toxapex gets a Scald burn on it, it’s game over for it.
Avalugg has these massive drawbacks only backed up by Recover, massive physical bulk (Which doesn’t matter when you are weak to Fighting, Steel, and Rock), but has a poor or below average matchup vs everything else that isn’t Landorus-T, Zygarde, or Kyurem-B. (If anything, the Hoopa and Nidoking did more work than Avalugg.) So yeah I highly disagree with this nom.
Thunder Pwoell
Banned deucer.
-It’s terrible defensive typing
So do a lot of mons relevant in ou.
-Has to swap into rocks in order to spin them away and has to keep Sturdy in order
So does my defoggers that I usually run, u can come in on most physical attackers. You're pretty gucci on that front. As you have watched, sturdy was more for offensive utility and I even got sturdy back a bunch.
-Beats Landorus but fails to beat mostly every other relevant rocker like Mega-Ttar.
Ok, after doing the command "/ds stealth rock, ou, all" I got this
"Bisharp, Chansey, Clefable, Diancie-Mega, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Heatran, Landorus-Therian, Mawile-Mega, Mew, Pinsir-Mega, Skarmory, Swampert-Mega, Tyranitar"
I most def will beat mega diancie no issue, and drill. For drill I will use this
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 78-93 (19.7 - 23.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 222-262 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 164-195 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Excadrill Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 248-294 (62.9 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You eat those.... I beat a ferrothron in the replays not covering that. You obvs beat garchomp and lando, and pinsir mega, I beat several mega swamps in rain in the replays and I wasnt even max bold def, so that leaves... Ttar, skarm, and chansey. You're not beating skarm but u will keep rocks off the field. With TTAr
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 100-118 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
Its obviously doing a lot to you, so you can either just rapid spin or attack, or if ur bold you actually can stall those out.... Im not going to take on a chansey.
-And no it doesn’t beat Pex. If Toxapex gets a Scald burn on it, it’s game over for it.
135+ Atk Avalugg Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 140-166 (46.2 - 54.7%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
I use that b/c thats actually the set I run and it still walls tf out of people no problem at all. SE or not, the numbers do not lie sir or maam.
So do a lot of mons relevant in ou.
-Has to swap into rocks in order to spin them away and has to keep Sturdy in order
So does my defoggers that I usually run, u can come in on most physical attackers. You're pretty gucci on that front. As you have watched, sturdy was more for offensive utility and I even got sturdy back a bunch.
-Beats Landorus but fails to beat mostly every other relevant rocker like Mega-Ttar.
Ok, after doing the command "/ds stealth rock, ou, all" I got this
"Bisharp, Chansey, Clefable, Diancie-Mega, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Heatran, Landorus-Therian, Mawile-Mega, Mew, Pinsir-Mega, Skarmory, Swampert-Mega, Tyranitar"
I most def will beat mega diancie no issue, and drill. For drill I will use this
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 78-93 (19.7 - 23.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 222-262 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 164-195 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Excadrill Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 248-294 (62.9 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You eat those.... I beat a ferrothron in the replays not covering that. You obvs beat garchomp and lando, and pinsir mega, I beat several mega swamps in rain in the replays and I wasnt even max bold def, so that leaves... Ttar, skarm, and chansey. You're not beating skarm but u will keep rocks off the field. With TTAr
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 100-118 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
Its obviously doing a lot to you, so you can either just rapid spin or attack, or if ur bold you actually can stall those out.... Im not going to take on a chansey.
-And no it doesn’t beat Pex. If Toxapex gets a Scald burn on it, it’s game over for it.
135+ Atk Avalugg Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 140-166 (46.2 - 54.7%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
I use that b/c thats actually the set I run and it still walls tf out of people no problem at all. SE or not, the numbers do not lie sir or maam.
So apparently I nommed hippowdon to b+, which wasn't what I meant. B- is a good ranking for it. Also the point about toxic on hippowdon is kind of irrelevant since it doesn't have the moveslots unless you have another rocker. Sorry for the confusion and this is my actual nom:
Hippowdon from c+ to b-
For the kokolucha counter it is in my last post
I also agree with tapu Koko to s-, it really is a dominant force and puts you understand a lot of pressure. Specs is a 50-50 for most mons in the tier, and bulky grasses that resist are beaten by Hawlucha, who Koko mostly carried to A. I was surprised to not see it move up in the last balance update, and I might have missed a reasoning. In terms of dominant meta trends, kokoluchas prowess is the big thing as well as torn t becoming good. Yeah av amoongus is a counter as well but I personally have not seen it be slapped on to teams for a Koko answer
Mod Edit: Do not double post
Hippowdon from c+ to b-
For the kokolucha counter it is in my last post
I also agree with tapu Koko to s-, it really is a dominant force and puts you understand a lot of pressure. Specs is a 50-50 for most mons in the tier, and bulky grasses that resist are beaten by Hawlucha, who Koko mostly carried to A. I was surprised to not see it move up in the last balance update, and I might have missed a reasoning. In terms of dominant meta trends, kokoluchas prowess is the big thing as well as torn t becoming good. Yeah av amoongus is a counter as well but I personally have not seen it be slapped on to teams for a Koko answer
Mod Edit: Do not double post
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My friend, that is the complete opposite of beating Toxapex.
I really don't see what those replays show. Avalugg didn't do shit in any of them. I'm even less convinced it should be ranked after watching them, since it was sacked in half of them The most noteworthy thing it did was force out Lando-T and lure a Heatran. In order for something to be ranked, it must show it can preform a specific niche that nothing else already ranked can preform. All these replays have shown me is that it can do a job that can be done by half the shit already ranked.
- Status