Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion Points:

Clefable A+ to S : Disagree
This is tricky so whilst I’m leaning towards Clef staying in A, I wouldn’t overly mind it rising to S rank. It’s obviously a brilliant rocker and the best wish passer in the tier, abuses stall and is a big reason balance is such a popular play style. Therefore its influence on the meta can justify it rising to S but there are some flaws that make me hesitant. It’s fairly easily overwhelmed by strong physical attackers like MegaMedi and ZardX, easily pressured and very susceptible to taunt/knock off. Zyagrde now opting for iron trail/steelium-Z is also a pretty big problem for it. It’s great, but not on the level of Heatran or LandoT.


Latios-Mega A to A+ : Agree
Probably the best mega in the tier and a very good option especially since the mega slot is a lot more free. Great all round stats, speed tier, movepool, reliable recovery. It can hit practically everything and is a great answer to Heatran as it has access earthquake. Ice beam keeps Lando, Zygarde and Gliscor in check and psychic is really spammable rn. It also partners well with many mons like Zone, Lele, Tran and even Zeraora. It’s only real issue is that it has to be careful of U-turn and pursuit trappers.


Alakazam-Mega A- to A : Agree
Mega-Zam is in a great place right now and 100% deserves to rise (Imo I wouldn’t mind it in A+ alongside Mega Latios). Not only does modest hits like a truck but its insane speed tier allows it to drop some speed for that extra firepower. Trace shenanigans help it switch into Heatran reliably which is always nice and allow it to regain some health against Toxapex and other regen mons. The current absence of fast scarfers is also nice as apart from Greninja and Lando, Mega-Zam has the luxury of hitting first. Every meta trans seems to favour Zam right now so I’d like to see it rise


Gastrodon B+ to B : Disagree
Gastrodon is still a fantastic mon in the current meta and still more than deserves the B+ subrank. The recent trend of Waterium-Z, Gunk Shot Ash-Greninja and Z-Dig/Low kick Protein Greninja definitely go in favour of Gastrodon being one of, if not the most reliable Greninja check in the tier. Bulu now fears gunk shot, Pex fears dig and ferro fears low kick which is often run for Heatran. Heatran moving to S is great for Gastrodon too as it is one of the most reliable switch ins as it only fears Grassium-Z variants. The recent surge of Bulu and Tangrowth aren’t great for it but both fear being toxic’d on the switch in and the former doesn’t want to switch into scald. Overall Gastrodon is still really solid and performs its job well so I don’t think it warrants a drop, at least not yet.

Other Noms:

Hawlucha A to A- : Agree
Hawlucha struggles to sweep a bit more than it used to. The rise of Clefable and Mega-Latios isn’t great for it, neither is bulky Z-fly LandoT. Toxapex can still haze away and fish for scald burns. Also the rise in Bulu stops its best partner, Koko, from keeping terrain up for Lucha. Overall I think recent trends haven’t been kind on Lucha so I think a drop is justified.


Tapu Bulu A to A+ : Agree
With the discovery of its now SpDef swords dance set Bulu can now not only provide great support in checking Koko and other special attackers but it can also sweep opposing teams with relative ease. It is able to break through much of the meta with superpower and horn leech at +2 which really helps with late game cleaning. Also being able to use synthesis and hold lefties really increase its longevity in matches. Gastrodon, who’s surged in viability, also makes a good partner, being able to better check some special attackers, keeping it healthy to set up and clean later in the game.
 

curiosity

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Clefable is definitely a fantastic option and is honestly the quintessential utility 'mon. The unparalleled utility it provides balance is irreplaceable. The ability to set up guaranteed rocks, provide its teammates with fantastic healing support and serve as a compressed defensive check to some of the tier's most influential breakers while serving as a fantastic stallbreaker is just incredible. Being one of the few rockers that is able to reliably beat and set rocks versus sableye is an incredible niche that no other rocker (sans offensive rocks tran) possesses and ensures that clefable serves as one of the best stallbreakers available to balance. The utility of Wish is an incredible asset that improves the matchup versus just about every common and viable team archetype currently available in the tier - against offence and opposing balance, you vastly invalidate common methods of breaking past walls, including chip damage and just hitting them hard, by doubling on the correct turn. Speaking of doubling, when combined with entry hazards, you might as well endlessly double against stall, because that's all you really need to break it open, especially if paired with another magic guard abuser or a regen mon. Continuing on with the theme of annoying stall, calm mind essentially invalidates a large majority of stall staples, as you now have the means to reliably 1v1 just about everything with hazards, excluding the obvious staples such as celesteela and chansey. Its defensive utility should also not be understated, considering that it has the means to reliably check the large majority of the tier, most notably balance beakers such as zygarde and mega latios (after a single calm mind boost) find it incredibly difficult to do anything versus balance due to it just sapping momentum and pp. In short, I believe it has the potential to be an excellent contender for the esteemed S rank.


Gastrodon is undeniably in a tight situation - on one hand, it's still one of the best blanket checks to a large portion of the meta that isn't entirely passive or even a momentum drain, but on the other hand, it's just not great anymore. Not only are most builds prepared to break past it, but the 'mons it's supposed to check can easily break past it. Now, you might immediately think that said mons must run a specific lure to break past it, however that just isn't the case. 'Mons such as Heatran and Greninja are the mons that immediately come to mind, as the former pressures it immediately through the combination of toxic and taunt, which wears it down incredibly quickly, especially if combined with entry hazards. Speaking of entry hazards, gastrodon cannot properly check greninja either, as the combination of one layer of spikes and a dark pulse on a switch-in immediately renders it useless as a "reliable" gren answer. The recent rise of tangrowth and specially defensive variants of swords dance bulu doesn't necessarily help it either, although it does have the means to punish both upon switch in. However, the niche of being a greninja and latios check that is also immune to volt switch (or electrics in general) is an incredible niche for balance to possess, especially considering that tapu koko has an advantageous matchup versus the majority of other electric immunities, barring gliscor, as well as the fact that most other forms of defensive counterplay to latios (celesteela, bulu / tang, mega zam) flat out loses to heatran (mega zam cannot check a corkscrew crash variant properly, but that set's stupidly good), whereas gastro has a decent matchup versus it, even if it is immensely pressured by it. I honestly have no opinion on whether it will whether it should drop or not, but it will be interesting to see where it will end up.


Celesteela is undoubtedly a fantastic pick. While the dominance of heatran is detrimental to it, the amazing matchup that it possesses versus not only some of the most dominant breakers in the tier, including mega latios, tornadus, alakazam and pinsir, but it also possesses an amazing matchup versus offence as a playstyle. The additional niche that it possesses versus offense - which is the ability to sit there versus the large majority of breakers commonly found and sap momentum - is incredibly useful, especially considering that the mentioned breakers all gain incredible amounts of momentum whenever they come in. Zam and Pinsir are the highlights in this case, as there's normally no reliable defensive counterplay versus most traditional balance builds. (or those that lack steela on it). It would also be blatantly negligent of me to ignore crucial changes to the meta that have made its niche even more desirable - the increased prominence of balance breakers such as mega alakazam, mega latios, tornadus and clefable has only boosted the demand and viability of this mon. Clefable in particular is especially notable, as you not only have the ability to scare it out with a heavy slam, but you also have the ability to directly invalidate its wish by being able to leech seed on a switch in, then being able to sap momentum for another turn by protecting. Now, you may say something along the lines of "uh grass types can just absorb the seeds", but you must consider the fact that celesteela forces out every grass type in the tier that's not named tangrowth. You may also be saying something about tornadus' access to knock off, uturn and heat wave, but you must also consider that the exact same scenario occurs to anything that pivots into it, and also beats torn 1v1 regardless. Slight filler aside, the metagame heavily favours celesteela's presence in the tier and deserves to rise to the A+ rank to reflect this.



It would be wrong to say that this isn't my favourite new toy, and i'm all for this rising. The sheer utility that zam provides balance is honestly astounding - the ability to counter non steelium variants of heatran as well as non draco meteor latios is just a godsend for most balance builds. I definitely sound like a broken record at this point, but alakazam's niche as an incredible switch-in to the mentioned is incredible, especially considering that reliable defensive counterplay for the two are incredibly limited.


When you think of reliable checks to heatran on balance, your thoughts should head straight for bulky grounds such as Zygarde, Gliscor and Gastrodon and mega lati@s. Now, you may consider these checks as being consistent, however you must consider how easy it is for heatran to break past these 'mons - Zygarde, Gliscor and Mega Latios must fear the ever-present will-o-wisp, which not only limits the former from properly functioning, but it also provides tran with incredibly effective method of breaking past these mons - gliscor now takes far too much damage from an offensive magma storm (not to mention it drops to an inferno overdrive, which alakazam is able to negate), zygarde now cannot reliably switch in, as the combination of magma residual and wisp / toxic + potential entry hazard damage just puts it in range of another magma storm, not to mention its offensive presence is heavily restricted thanks to its burn. Mega Latios is also restricted, though to a lesser extent, but is primarily punished through the use of pursuit, from 'mons such as weavile and tyranitar. I also feel obliged to mentioned that Gastrodon will be put into a position where it cannot recover off the residual damage from magma + toxic / wisp and any potential entry hazard damage and is thus heavily pressured. Now at this point, you may be wondering "well what does this have to do with mega zam?" (holy shit i'm so sorry for making you read this)

Well, Mega Alakazam has the advantage of not being subjugated to any of these issues - through its trace ability, it no longer has to fear an inferno overdrive, nor does it have to fear being chipped by wisp. Toxic is also alleviated through the combination of reliable recovery, in addition to trace, which allows it to trace abilities such as magic guard and regenerator - which is a common occurrence, as torn / pex / clef is absolutely everywhere, so it's not a stretch to assume this will occur in a game - which only further reduces the severity of toxic. Pursuit trapping is also alleviated through its amazing speed tier, allowing it to outspeed and ohko both weavile and tyranitar, although you do have to risk focus blast actually landing for it to avoid getting trapped. Speaking of its unrivalled speed tier, its speed tier is another crucial aspect to its success, especially on balance. Being able to outspeed common balance breakers such as tornadus, heatran, mega lati@s and protean gren gives it the edge over other breakers, especially since a majority of breakers on balance such as heatran, mega latias and torn have a disadvantageous matchup versus offence, due to a low speed tier or inability to break past common pivots such as greninja and tapu koko, which limits the breaking capabilities of the listed. Zam's speed tier fixes this issue, as it no longer has to fear a large handful of 'mons from coming in an revenge killing it.


I honestly think nearly everything that needs to be mentioned about Latios has already been discussed, so I'd actually like to address something that Charmflash brought up a few pages earlier, with that statement being that both Mega Alakazam and Latios should be listed in the same rank. Now I personally agree with this sentiment, although I do not agree with both being in the A rank. Mega Latios and Mega Alakazam are both arguably superior than everything listed in the A rank and possess qualities that are comparable of those in the A+ rank. I've already gone on about mega zam in a fucking essay holy shit and i'm certain I have nothing more to add to mega latios at the current moment in time, but I believe that both have influenced the meta enough to be listed in the A+ tier. I promise i'll expand on this at a further date, but it's 1 am in the morning so gimme a break
 
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I'm going to go out and say Rotom-W should be at least B+ with it being able to take on both S-tier mons right now, and with defog it makes it nothing to scoff at. Also being able to go toe to toe with a lot of A tier mons such as Tornadus-T, Toxapex, Celesteela Greninja-if it doesn't have grass grass knot. Being able to take on quite a few of the meta mons, I find it even more useful then most a-tier mons
 

Mega Charizard Y from C+ to B-

Mega Charizard Y is definitely in a better spot than it was several months ago. With Gastrodon being as popular as it is right now (although this may change in the following weeks/months) as the specially defensive Water-type of choice along with mons like Clefable, Tangrowth, Magearna, Kartana, Rotom-W, non-rock move Landorus-T, Tornadus-T (Drought makes Hurricane even less accurate and Supersonic Skystrike fails to OHKO from full), SpDef Bulu, Jirachi, Mew, Heatran, Mega Scizor, Tapu Fini, Amoonguss, (Mega) Tyranitar and Gliscor rising in popularity, Mega Charizard Y's set of Flamethrower, Solar Beam, and Focus Blast hits all of these for either super effective damage or a ton of neutral damage. Zard Y can also take advantage of Veil offense which has been steadily rising in popularity as well, as mind games will start to happen as Zard Y can override the Hail and prevent Aurora Veil from going up, with the Ninetales user deciding whether or not to click Hail, Aurora Veil, or double out while Zard Y is still alive. It's also Rain's biggest pain in the ass.

However, I don't see Charizard Y ever going past B- because Toxapex and Zygarde are still extremely relevant threats, and letting those mons have free turns can be detrimental, plus the fact that the Mega Latis are among the best Megas in the tier at the moment and give it problems, as well. It could opt for something like Dragon Pulse to try to hit these Dragon-type mons, but that means sacrificing Solar Beam or Focus Blast which are much more valuable options, and Roost can't be subbed out because of Stealth Rock.​
 
—> B
I’m honestly quite surprised that many people are disagreeing with this nomination. I believe this is because people don’t realize why Gastrodon was on the slate to drop in the first place. Usage is not my only argument, but it’s tournament usage is extremely low. It had gotten only 1 game of usage since round 2 of wcop and that was in round 2.

Other than that, there are several meta game changes against Gastrodon. People like to call it a great check to both Greninjas, Keldeo, Heatran, Mega Alakazam, and Magearna. However, Gastrodon can lose to Ash-Greninja with just 1 flinch given a spike is up, which is not hard. All-Out-Pummeling Protean Greninja also can kill this after getting some damage on the switch. Magearnas most common set is CM ZFairy, which beats Gastrodon. Calm Mind and Energy Ball are really popular Mega Alakazam sets and can roll through Gastrodon. Heatran can kill Gastrodon with Bloom Doom, or beat it down with Magma Storm + Taunt. Many of these sets have risen in popular some time ago and while some people like to call these sets “Gastrodons impact on the metagame” this is not necessarily true. sets like CM Zam and AOP Greninja were made for separate reasons.

Other ways the metagame has adapated were the rises of Specs Keldeo, SD Bulu, Bug Z Volcarona, and Uturn Tapu Koko. Spikestack has risen and Gastrodon teams usually don’t carry spikes because Gastrodon hates hazards and you’re doubling up on checks to mons like Tapu Koko if you go Ferrothorn and Gastrodon +Ash-Greninja is not bad but it makes a team often struggle against grasses like Tapu Bulu.

Gastrodon teams can often lose matchups from preview against Pokémon like volcarona and specs keldeo, and Toxapex’s regenerator is often far more valuable. I agree with a lot of curiosity. However, I think that he undervalued toxapex’s regenerator and Toxapex also has the ability to run payapa berry which helps it not become complete psychic bait.

—> ranked
Right now, I strongly believe Snorlax is one of the tiers most overlooked Pokemon. It has two sets which I think have viability.
daydream (Snorlax) @ Normalium Z
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Curse
- Earthquake
- Double-Edge
- Rest

This is my favorite Snorlax set. It switches in to many of the most spammed Pokemon rn including Clefable, Heatran, Ash-Greninja, Mega Latios, Mega Alakazam, and Mega Latias. The list obviously extends but this is to display the number of extremely common pokemon and even Pokemon such as Tangrowth and Weavile were not included. Snorlax threatens to ohko all of these Pokemon with either it’s z move or earthquake at +0 barring Clefable which dies at +1. Snorlax should ALWAYS be paired with Magnezone as Magnezone helps check the best defensive answers to this set. There are very limited number of checks to this set and the most teams rely on revenge killing with fighting types, which aren’t super common right now. or putting it into range of recoil damage. This set is also one of the best Toxapex lures as you surprise Toxapex by outspending it after it hazes your Curse because of your 56 speed and a 2 +0 earthquakes with stealth rock always kills toxapex assuming stealth rock are up or you can use your z move if stealth rock are not up.

This Snorlax is a unique Pokemon and nothing even comes close to doing what it does best. In my eyes, the ability to come in on the best mons of the tier and rest off health against Pokemon such as toxapex and Clefable even when extremely low makes it have the ability to devastate common balance squads. It’s bulk in tandem with its power makes sure that Snorlax does not do nothing and can net one kill of its choice against even some of the most offensive teams. It can lure in and beat unaware users outside of Pyukumuku on stall, which it pp stalls. In fact, I don’t remember a single game where Snorlax did nothing .

It can fit in a variety of different playstyles like balance, trick room, Aurora veils, and offense and I would urge the readers to try this out to get an idea of what Snorlax does.

daydream (Snorlax) @ Normalium Z
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Curse
- Earthquake
- Double-Edge
- Rest

FIRE BRIGADE (Magnezone) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Fire]

inpexination (Toxapex) @ Payapa Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 156 Def / 104 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Scald
- Haze
- Recover

darkness (Tapu Bulu) @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 248 SpD / 12 Spe
Careful Nature
- Swords Dance
- Horn Leech
- Superpower
- Synthesis

poison enhancing (Gliscor) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 48 Def / 80 SpD / 136 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Roost

broken ruins (Mew) @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 240 HP / 156 Def / 112 Spe
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Will-O-Wisp
- Soft-Boiled
- Defog


I have a few alternate versions to this team including one with thunder wave defog Mega Latias > mew and another with Specially defensive Heatran > Toxapex and SD Gliscor, which also uses Defog Mega Latias and shout-outs Indigo Plateau for suggesting that because I never for a moment would have considered tran zone, even though this is the weird occasion where it can work. For further explanation you can go to my rmt here

replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-774383430
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-775043331- lax would have killed more mons if it didn’t get crit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-779082429 - I should have Earthquaked the Weavile but couldn’t be bothered to calc because this was for a tour I didn’t care much about and if he hit icicle crash and I earthquaked, the same thing would have happened.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-774377297

Iapapa belly drum is also a decent set but I don’t have enough expirience with it and for those who want something to prove that Snorlax isn’t terrible and worth trying out is that the team got 12-1 on high ladder and after that record hit 1941 and could probably have gone higher if I wasn’t sick of ladder.

tl;dr - Snorlax with z double edge + rest which is evd to creep Toxapex can come in on a plethora of Pokemon and is strong unboosted, but often boosts regardless. This can take care of breakers that try to account for other Snorlax sets like Iapapa berry belly drum and ohko them to the point where Snorlax can curse up and win.
 
Been a bit since I last posted some thoughts (and my last post got nuked because I had a Zeraora nom on there) but here we go anyway:

First off, here are a few nominations I'd like to provide some thoughts on:

Clefable from A+ to S: Strongly Agree
This thing seems a little out of place in A+, in my opinion. This was a surefire S- rank if S- remained, but in my opinion I still think it's the fourth-best thing in OU at the moment (more on the third-best in a moment). It offers a considerable amount of role compression, acts as an anti-Stall win condition with setup sets, has a notable Unaware set that lets it come in clutch occasionally, can function as a Wish passer as needed, has self-sustainability as is, has a vast utility movepool to cripple opposing threats, and, most importantly, is probably the most durable Stealth Rocker in the entire tier.

One of the biggest things going for Clefable right now is definitely the amount of support it doesn't require. On the contrary, Clefable's ability to keep a decent portion of the tier at bay with its good typing, bulk, and access to two forms of reliable recovery whilst being able to constantly and consistently get Stealth Rock up on a huge portion of the metagame allows it to support a wide array of top-tier threats, including and especially Heatran, which appreciates having a moveslot freed up by Clefable's Stealth Rock and even further appreciates being able to run its pick of the litter for its Z-move over Leftovers. I'd argue that two of the biggest things helping Heatran be one of the dominant forces in this metagame are Tapu Bulu and Clefable, and it isn't particularly unreasonable to argue for a Clefable rise to S based on this alongside its numerous other beneficial traits. I'd consider it the worst of the four things that should be in S without a doubt, but being the worst A-student in an Advanced Placement class isn't exactly something to be ashamed of when you're still an A-student.

Tapu Bulu from A to A+: Strongly Agree

Bulu is probably one of the most splashable threats in the current metagame. It has an assortment of extraordinarily powerful sets, ranging from Choice Band to several variations of its Swords Dance sets to Assault Vest to even the uncommon Choice Scarf, and its fantastic typing allows it to switch in on and force out a decent portion of the metagame, including Ash-Greninja among many other things. I've seen like four or five different variations of its Swords Dance sets, ranging from 3 attacks to a Specially Defensive Bulky Sub+SD+Synthesis set to a fast 2-Attacks SD set to an even bulkier 2-Attacks SD set, and those sets can see anything from Grassium Z to Life Orb to Leftovers. In addition, Grassy Terrain is extremely helpful to an assortment of Earthquake-weak attackers, giving them more opportunities to set up, get hits in, or just sponge tons more hits. Toxapex, VERY notably Heatran, Magearna, Kartana, Clefable, and much more adore the extra recovery or the halved Earthquake damage provided by Grassy Terrain, and some of these can even go so far as to exploit its offensive benefits for the team, too. Overall, I'd argue that Tapu Bulu should definitely be in A+ right now, and I'd argue it provides far, far more direct support than any other Tapu does, whilst still packing a serious punch.

Gastrodon from B+ to B: Disagree

The meta is definitely adapting to Gastrodon's presence somewhat, but a lot of the things Gastrodon used to hard-check or hard-counter that are now trying to adapt to Gastrodon's presence are still being forced to either rely on rather inconsistent solutions (such as a flinch from Ash-Greninja) or are running Grass-type coverage solely to cover their Gastrodon weakness. I feel that we should wait a little bit longer, for some more tournament results, before we truly decide to drop Gastrodon, since the opportunity cost of covering it may prove a little bit too high in other matchups and Gastrodon may end up bouncing back. That said, I do think Toxapex is superior in quite a few cases.

Mega Latios and Mega Alakazam from A- and A, respectively, to A+: Very Strongly Agree

Mega Latios has been talked about to death so far, but there's a very, very good reason why: it's downright phenomenal at what it does. It's one of the tier's few true mixed attackers and it is fantastic at that role, taking down many of the most dangerous threats in the entire tier with Ice Beam+Earthquake+Psychic and having a great deal of staying power by virtue of Recover. Similarly, Mega Alakazam has all but solidified itself as one of the most threatening special attackers in the tier, with Trace giving it a tremendous amount of utility such as checking Heatran and Mega Latios. However, I wholeheartedly agree with the previously-mentioned sentiment of ranking these two in the same subrank. Mega Latios has consistently proven itself as the best Mega in the tier, while Mega Alakazam has gotten so good so quickly that it should be more than free to jump a couple subranks at once. Both should be in A+, and if Mega Alakazam doesn't jump right to A+ I still think Mega Latios should be in A+ without a doubt.

Snorlax from Unranked to Ranked: All. Of. My. Yes.

Snorlax can beat a huge amount of teams right from Team Preview. It requires a decent amount of support to function, but it brings something extremely unique to the table, as almost nothing else in the tier can function as half the Curse sweeper that Lax is. I was initially skeptical of vso's nomination, but after testing out his/her Mega Latias variation of that team I can confidently say that I am really impressed with Snorlax's results. This thing can start boosting wars with even top-tier threats like Zygarde and can potentially come out on top. Its Breakneck Blitz is a headache to switch in on, muscling past even incredibly bulky stuff. It can tear powerful cores in half quite easily, and doing so can force your opponent to be one team member down and staring a boosted lard-ass in the face, and it'll often just win outright. The only thing I'd argue is holding it back in terms of metagame trends is things like All-Out Pummeling Protean Greninja and especially Mega Medicham, who can quite easily tear Lax down even if it has a couple Curse boosts under its belt. But trying to stop it with Taunt isn't a particularly viable option when even without boosts it can 2HKO or even OHKO most Taunt users anyway.

I'd argue that Snorlax should be placed in C+, and maaaaaybe B- at best. I'd say that on paper it's easily more effective than the likes of Mega Manectric, Mega Garchomp, Hydreigon, vanilla Alakazam, Uxie, Avalugg, Mega Altaria, Skarmory, and Mimikyu, and I'd argue that, due to how easily it can fit onto quite a few different archetypes, it's better than half of B- in practice because it doesn't actually require that much support to function. It's actually really, really good, and although its awful matchup against Mega Medicham hurts quite a bit I'd still say it should have a pretty respectable spot on the VR.

Celesteela from A to A+: On the Fence, But Slightly Agree

Celesteela is a bit of a mixed bag, in my opinion: while it definitely fares extremely well against Mega Alakazam and Mega Latios, who are hard-pressed to deal with it alone, Mega Zam's rise in popularity has also resulted in it being paired with Celesteela's biggest headache, Magnezone. In fact, while quite a few trends, such as the rise of Tapu Bulu, Clefable, Mega Lati@s, and Mega Alakazam have been quite beneficial for Celesteela, the massive surge in Heatran usage in tandem with the fact that Magnezone also benefits from quite a few of these trends lead me to believe that Celesteela might not be fully cut out for A+. That said, it's definitely in a better spot now than it was before.

Mega Manectric from C+ to C, C-, or even Unranked: Agree

While I'd like to avoid talking about Zeraora too much at the risk of getting this essay deleted, I'm going to say this much: Zeraora is way, way better than Mega Manectric. Better bulk, faster, harder-hitting, and, most importantly, versatile enough to be a mixed or physical threat instead of basically a worse Koko with Intimidate. This thing requires so much support to function and it's even more heavily outclassed by better Electrics, and it has a higher opportunity cost than Koko or Zeraora. Send this thing to the grave.

And now for a handful of nominations of my own:

I Nominate Zygarde from A+ to S:
Apologies in advance if I come off as inflammatory, but did the VR Council even remotely discuss Zygarde whatsoever last slate? Because this was an extremely popular nomination the last time, and it wasn't particularly hard to see why so many people were on-board with nominating Zygarde for A+: this thing is extremely freaking good at an assortment of different things. The Thousand Arrows+Extreme Speed combo on its own is downright ludicrous, if Thousand Arrows wasn't already enough for you, it has a million and one different Dragon Dance sets alone, and it can find its way onto almost any archetype because it has a set for absolutely anything.

If even the incredibly balanced metagame that is DPP OU can have four S-rank threats, I can't see why Gen 7 OU cannot, for Zygarde is without question one of the most restrictive and threatening things in the current metagame. Its Choice Band set has basically no good switchins, its Double-Dance set is probably the most horrific thing you'll ever see on a Hyper Offense team, its Steelium Z sets let it take advantage of the increasingly-popular Bulu and Clefable, its rare Dragonium set can take advantage of the rise of Tangrowth, its Weakness Policy set can singlehandedly 6-0 an entire team if your opponent makes a single mistake, its Sub+Protect DD set can realistically stall out Tangrowth with Toxic Spikes support and then get downright obscene levels of boosts, and, hell, there are even more defensive sets, like SubToxic and SubCoil, that can take advantage of things that could even hope to attempt to bring one of its billion offensive sets down. If Clefable is being nominated to S, I think this thing has even more of a right to be nominated to S. And if Clefable truly belongs in S I think this thing belongs in S even more. This thing shouldn't have been A+ for so long when Kartana had its place in an S-rank for such a long period of time, because it is leaps and bounds better than almost anything else in A+ and a country mile better than anything below.

I Also Nominate Alolan Ninetales from C to C+:

This one will probably be a bit more divisive than the Zygarde nomination. However, I've recently been playing around with a pretty cool Webs+Veil HO team I found in one RMT (it's not the Serperior bullshit by the way) on this site and it's been one of the most incredible things I've tried. Veil is definitely in a much better place now than it was a while back and I feel that Alolan Ninetales, being a Veil setter that has just the movepool it needs (by virtue of its strong Ice STAB and Encore) to set its screens up rather quickly, should rise slightly as a result. I definitely don't think it should rise beyond C+, though, since Aurora Veil is still one specific playstyle and this thing is only good on Hyper Offense teams; that said, ranking it alongside another staple of Hyper Offense in Araquanid hardly seems unreasonable. If it doesn't rise I understand why, though.

Edit: Fucking formatting errors when adding spoiler tags again. Someone help me please!
 
unnamed.gif
-------> I am nominating this threat for A+

I would start by saying this thing 2HKO the entire metagame bar Reuniclus and Mega Sableye. This includes big names like: Clefable, Landorus-Therian, Toxapex, Mega Scizor, and some obvious ones like Ferrothorn and Heatran. Almost no pokémon can get in safely on Mega Medicham. And speaking about Reuniclus and Sableye, the first one has a low usage, while the second is very passive, setup bait for many pokémon teammates.
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Reuniclus: 159-188 (37.5 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 328-388 (109.6 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 124 Def Scizor-Mega: 241-285 (70.2 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 452-532 (128.4 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 302-356 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 284-336 (74.3 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Mega Medicham is in a great spot right now, being one of the best wallbreakers from the tier having massive dmg that breaks any team. It has a decent speed, since 100 speed it's good enough to surpass metagame kings like unboosted Zygarde e Magearna. This means Mega Cham inst just an Wallbreaker, it's an Balance Breaker too, as your speed is enough to bypass things like Tyranitar, Tapu Lele, Kyurem Black and the aferomentioned Zygarde and Magearna.

For that reason, it benefits from the recent changes of the metagame, that is becoming slower, with popular pokémon Clefable, Gastrodon, Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, all of them that he surpasses and destroys.

It also doesn't care with the metagame becoming heavier, since his massive damage is more than enough to break even the toughest walls. It also isn't weak aganist offensive teams , since his priority Fake Out deals considerable damage in pokémon that surpasses him, like Latios, which hits about 30%, and that's very effective to revenge kill faster threats, especially in combination with the rare Bullet Punch.

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 102-120 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 73-87 (24.2 - 28.9%) -- 99.2% chance to 4HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 88-104 (29.4 - 34.7%) -- 7.9% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 84-99 (29.8 - 35.2%) -- 23.6% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 104-123 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 103-122 (41 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 93-110 (27.7 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 62-74 (17.3 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO

Although I think there's a thin line between A and A+, I can't see Mega Cham in the same level of things like Celesteela and Hawlucha, but in the same level of things like Ash Greninja and Kartana, as Cham easilys sweep and destroys many teams, especially the slower ones. This is best seen as many A+ pokemon, even the fast ones, are more than glue/utility mons that really are immense threats. So, I think there's some space in the said Rank for an immense threat like Cham, and I thought it deserves that space.

This is the OU Good Cores section, and I think should you look. If you find more than five cores that aren't at least 2HKOed by Mega Medicham, so it shouldn't deserve the A+ Rank.
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Conclusion:
Mega Medicham is an immense threat with almost no realiably switch-ins, that sweep and cleans many slower teams late game, or wallbreaks and punch many holes early game, opening the game for another cleaners like Kartana that shares similar checks, or cleaners like Ash-Greninja, that benefits from special walls being obliterated, and it can even do respectable work for offensive builds with good speed and priority, and it deserves the A+ Rank as a Pokémon that terrifies the majority of the metagame.

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-779609936
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-779589574
 

Attachments

View attachment 129093-------> I am nominating this threat for A+

I would start by saying this thing 2HKO the entire metagame bar Reuniclus and Mega Sableye. This includes big names like: Clefable, Landorus-Therian, Toxapex, Mega Scizor, and some obvious ones like Ferrothorn and Heatran. Almost no pokémon can get in safely on Mega Medicham. And speaking about Reuniclus and Sableye, the first one has a low usage, while the second is very passive, setup bait for many pokémon teammates.
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Reuniclus: 159-188 (37.5 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 328-388 (109.6 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 124 Def Scizor-Mega: 241-285 (70.2 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 452-532 (128.4 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 302-356 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 284-336 (74.3 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mega Medicham is in a great spot right now, being one of the best wallbreakers from the tier having massive dmg that breaks any team. It has a decent speed, since 100 speed it's good enough to surpass metagame kings like unboosted Zygarde e Magearna. This means Mega Cham inst just an Wallbreaker, it's an Balance Breaker too, as your speed is enough to bypass things like Tyranitar, Tapu Lele, Kyurem Black and the aferomentioned Zygarde and Magearna.

For that reason, it benefits from the recent changes of the metagame, that is becoming slower, with popular pokémon Clefable, Gastrodon, Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, all of them that he surpasses and destroys.

It also doesn't care with the metagame becoming heavier, since his massive damage is more than enough to break even the toughest walls. It also isn't weak aganist offensive teams , since his priority Fake Out deals considerable damage in pokémon that surpasses him, like Latios, which hits about 30%, and that's very effective to revenge kill faster threats, especially in combination with the rare Bullet Punch.

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 102-120 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 73-87 (24.2 - 28.9%) -- 99.2% chance to 4HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 88-104 (29.4 - 34.7%) -- 7.9% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 84-99 (29.8 - 35.2%) -- 23.6% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 104-123 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 103-122 (41 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 93-110 (27.7 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 62-74 (17.3 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO

Although I think there's a thin line between A and A+, I can't see Mega Cham in the same level of things like Celesteela and Hawlucha, but in the same level of things like Ash Greninja and Kartana, as Cham easilys sweep and destroys many teams, especially the slower ones. This is best seen as many A+ pokemon, even the fast ones, are more than glue/utility mons that really are immense threats. So, I think there's some space in the said Rank for an immense threat like Cham, and I thought it deserves that space.

This is the OU Good Cores section, and I think should you look. If you find more than five cores that aren't at least 2HKOed by Mega Medicham, so it shouldn't deserve the A+ Rank.

Conclusion:
Mega Medicham is an immense threat with almost no realiably switch-ins, that sweep and cleans many slower teams late game, or wallbreaks and punch many holes early game, opening the game for another cleaners like Kartana that shares similar checks, or cleaners like Ash-Greninja, that benefits from special walls being obliterated, and it can even do respectable work for offensive builds with good speed and priority, and it deserves the A+ Rank as a Pokémon that terrifies the majority of the metagame.

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-779609936
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-779589574
Hi! What you do is only saying what we already know. Nominations made in this thread depend on metagame trends.
Otherwise, for your nomination, I don't say I am against a Medicham-Mega rise, because it can do much things against HO teams which are very common during OLT thanks to Fake Out, permitting to it to break Pokémon holding Focus Sash, and Bullet Punch which surprise kills Ninetales-A, but the problem is that there's too many rising threats to it, not especially pokémon which will handle its attacks, but which will outspeed and OHKO it, for instance Tornadus-Therian. There are better Mega Pokémon to play currently too, notably Latios and Scizor which are clearly better in the current metagame. A rank is very fine.
 
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I think Mega Camerupt should rise to C+ for a few reasons:

- It breaks common Clef + Steel balance cores
- Tapu Bulu's rise is good for it, as it allows it to deal with Gastrodon with Nature power
- Keldeo falling off the map, Ash-Gren getting a slight decrease in viability, and Protean Gren often choosing to not run Water moves

Of course, I don't think it should be in the B-ranks since it still suffers from certain issues. It doesn't like the Mega Latis being prominent, although Mega Latios takes half from Fire Blast and you can run Toxic to cripple Mega Latias. Additionally, it requires quite a bit of team support to function. You're gonna need Tapu Bulu, a Volt-Turn user, and probably another Water resist/immunity at least. But Mega Camerupt is better at breaking balance cores, which is its main job, than it was a couple months ago and balance teams have gotten a bit more prominent, so I think a rise is justified.

Also agree with Zard-Y rising for similar reasons.
 
*takes a deep breath*
*prepares for the worst*



C+->B- or B

I feel like this thing was so overrated at the beginning of USM that it somehow looped back around to being underrated. Providing you don't see Ttar or A-Muk at team preview (neither of which are common enough to completely neuter it atm) the clown is pretty much getting a kill the moment you send it out. Its best set is definitely either Specs or Sub+CM+Ghostium, the latter of which completely tears apart most common balance and bulky offense builds considering Toxapex (its only decent switch-in on those types of teams) takes an upwards of 90% from +1 Never-Ending Nightmare and has to switch out after hazing, forcing another team member to either die or take a huge hit. Its decent speed tier combined with its typing means that it can threaten a lot of common offensive mons as well (most notably Lele, Bulu, Medicham, Magearna, Kyurem-B), which is something that makes it stand out among other wallbreakers.

Also, if you're familiar with that set you'll probably know what it does to most stall builds:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-779776044
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-779767125

I've seen the speed boosting set with 232HP / 20 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe pop up on some HO builds as well, but I haven't personally tried it out for myself. Either way, TL;DR Blace is pretty good and deserves higher than C+. Finch have mercy on my soul.
 

sed

Shoutout Yachty but this ain't a lil boat
is a Pre-Contributor
View attachment 129093-------> I am nominating this threat for A+

I would start by saying this thing 2HKO the entire metagame bar Reuniclus and Mega Sableye. This includes big names like: Clefable, Landorus-Therian, Toxapex, Mega Scizor, and some obvious ones like Ferrothorn and Heatran. Almost no pokémon can get in safely on Mega Medicham. And speaking about Reuniclus and Sableye, the first one has a low usage, while the second is very passive, setup bait for many pokémon teammates.
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Reuniclus: 159-188 (37.5 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 328-388 (109.6 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 124 Def Scizor-Mega: 241-285 (70.2 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 452-532 (128.4 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 302-356 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 284-336 (74.3 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mega Medicham is in a great spot right now, being one of the best wallbreakers from the tier having massive dmg that breaks any team. It has a decent speed, since 100 speed it's good enough to surpass metagame kings like unboosted Zygarde e Magearna. This means Mega Cham inst just an Wallbreaker, it's an Balance Breaker too, as your speed is enough to bypass things like Tyranitar, Tapu Lele, Kyurem Black and the aferomentioned Zygarde and Magearna.

For that reason, it benefits from the recent changes of the metagame, that is becoming slower, with popular pokémon Clefable, Gastrodon, Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, all of them that he surpasses and destroys.

It also doesn't care with the metagame becoming heavier, since his massive damage is more than enough to break even the toughest walls. It also isn't weak aganist offensive teams , since his priority Fake Out deals considerable damage in pokémon that surpasses him, like Latios, which hits about 30%, and that's very effective to revenge kill faster threats, especially in combination with the rare Bullet Punch.

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 102-120 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 73-87 (24.2 - 28.9%) -- 99.2% chance to 4HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 88-104 (29.4 - 34.7%) -- 7.9% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 84-99 (29.8 - 35.2%) -- 23.6% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 104-123 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 103-122 (41 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 93-110 (27.7 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 62-74 (17.3 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO

Although I think there's a thin line between A and A+, I can't see Mega Cham in the same level of things like Celesteela and Hawlucha, but in the same level of things like Ash Greninja and Kartana, as Cham easilys sweep and destroys many teams, especially the slower ones. This is best seen as many A+ pokemon, even the fast ones, are more than glue/utility mons that really are immense threats. So, I think there's some space in the said Rank for an immense threat like Cham, and I thought it deserves that space.

This is the OU Good Cores section, and I think should you look. If you find more than five cores that aren't at least 2HKOed by Mega Medicham, so it shouldn't deserve the A+ Rank.

Conclusion:
Mega Medicham is an immense threat with almost no realiably switch-ins, that sweep and cleans many slower teams late game, or wallbreaks and punch many holes early game, opening the game for another cleaners like Kartana that shares similar checks, or cleaners like Ash-Greninja, that benefits from special walls being obliterated, and it can even do respectable work for offensive builds with good speed and priority, and it deserves the A+ Rank as a Pokémon that terrifies the majority of the metagame.

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-779609936
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-779589574

FYI, that's not the Good Cores thread. That's not even the old Good Cores thread. That's like 3-4 iterations ago of the Good Cores thread. That's the late 2016/early 2017 Good Cores thread. This is the current good cores thread, and half the cores have stuff like Clefable or Helmet Torn-T so I'm not really sure if it furthers your point.
 
I'm nominating Zeraora to B+ rank- Zeraora is, in my opinion, the best late game cleaner in the tier atm. Combined with pokemon such as Chomp, Torn, Keldeo, Ash Gren, and many others such as Mandibuzz and Skarmory, his ability covers all electric weaknesses. He has almost perfect coverage with HPIce, Close Combat, Knock Off, and Plasma Fists.

Pros of Zeraora- Outspeeds common pokemon, such as Tapu Koko, Ash Greninja, and Mega Loppunny without even running Max Speed, Okoes landorus with HPIce, and 2hkos Koko with Plasma Fists. Close Combat lets him severely damage Ferrothorn and Kartana (actually will Oko max speed and max atk Kartana). Knock off helps kill Scarfed pokemon (such as lando) on the switch, followed by an HPice or Close Combat (Scarftana).

Cons of Zeraora- Cannot switch into many attacks-his defenses are way too low. The only other cons (other than this big one) are that he's often outclassed by Koko, and that he cannot oko Zygarde from full with an HPIce (does around 87)

I'm also nomming Buzzwole to C rank - Buzzwole is a really awkward typing, being quad weak to Flying, weak to Fire, Fairy, and Psychic. However, he resists Fighting, Bug, Dark, Grass, and Ground. This means he can almost always beat Zygarde, Landorus (unless flyinium Z), Mega Gyarados, Zeraora, Tapu Bulu, and Mega Lopunny with relative ease. He does, however, really hate being restricted to only 4 moves, as any Buzzwole wants recovery, set up, stronger attacks, and a Substitute. Because of this, he is almost outclassed by Mega Heracross, who's base 185 attack helps him hit much harder than Buzzwole. However, Heracross also cannot run on of my favorite sets, Choice Scarf Swole, who can easily sweep through a weakened team with his peculiar typing combined with Eq and Ice Punch.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-780022307 (Swole v Trick Room)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-780026090 (Zeraora- Crit 2HKoed anyways)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-780031374 (Swole vs Some weird ass team)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-780034068 (Zera Cleans Up)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-780044264 (Another Zeraora cleanup)
 
I'm going to go out and say Rotom-W should be at least B+ with it being able to take on both S-tier mons right now, and with defog it makes it nothing to scoff at. Also being able to go toe to toe with a lot of A tier mons such as Tornadus-T, Toxapex, Celesteela Greninja-if it doesn't have grass grass knot. Being able to take on quite a few of the meta mons, I find it even more useful then most a-tier mons
Just as a reminder, Grass Knot is only 20 power when used on rotom. I think he should be a C+ rank tops, as he cannot break through teams and 1v1s very few things. He actually loses to MagmaStorm + Toxic heatran and gets easily stalled out of Hydro Pumps, which is in my opinion, Rotom-W's big downfall. Hydro Pump takes up a mandatory slot, and because it's not Scald, it cannot burn, meaning you're forced to run Wil-o-wisp along side it. On many teams it is now a defogger, and this means you have one slot for about 3 different moves, in Pain Split, Volt Switch, and maybe even HPFire. Not to mention Gastrodon, which is the new Rotom Wall, meaning you might even have to run toxic to whittle those down too. His one weakness to Grass makes him great Serperior set up as well, and is often used as the only ground immunity, meaning your team is automatically weak to ScarfDrill.

So in conclusion, I don't think that Rotom Wash is really relevant to the OU tier atm, and I'm not sure he ever will be.
 
Everyone already knows Rotom-w's only attack is hydro pump, but you are forgetting that it and will o wisp both combo with defog, making them not miss as much. And even if you could use scald would you, I mean even greninja uses hydro pump over any water attack besides water shuriken, and it can't even combo with defog. So saying hydro pump isn't good is completely false. Gastrodon doesn't have defog, or levitate, its roll is completely different. Heatran also isn't going to live through hydro pump

I forgot to mention that maga storm has terrible accuracy, so not only do you have to hope toxic doesn't miss, you also have to hope maga storm hits, all while getting hit by hydro pumps. So I don't know why you would fight rotom-w with heatran anyway
 
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Everyone already knows Rotom-w's only attack is hydro pump, but you are forgetting that it and will o wisp both combo with defog, making them not miss as much. And even if you could use scald would you, I mean even greninja uses hydro pump over any water attack besides water shuriken, and it can't even combo with defog. So saying hydro pump isn't good is completely false. Gastrodon doesn't have defog, or levitate, its roll is completely different. Heatran also isn't going to live through hydro pump

I forgot to mention that maga storm has terrible accuracy, so not only do you have to hope toxic doesn't miss, you also have to hope maga storm hits, all while getting hit by hydro pumps. So I don't know why you would fight rotom-w with heatran anyway
I have no idea how to begin so i'm gonna format it like this.
A. Greninja uses Hydro Pump over scald because it's a pure offensive mon and it lets it transform as quickly as possible, rotom is a defensive mon, it wants to burn things, but it doesn't have scald so it needs willo wisp for that.
B. Greninja not being able to use defog is not relevant whatsoever as Defog+Hydro Pump is not that good of a pair because most of the time rotom is using defog when something is coming in that can usually kill it.
C. He mentioned Gastrodon because it's a new bulky water that also walls rotom as well as gives it competition, they have the same basic role as a bulky water, difference is gastro is much better.
D.Heatran Can live a hydro pump SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 236-278 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
E. Because of Z solar coming back there are many trans who can go 1v1 with Rotom now, and they can still toxic on the switch meaning that your rotom who has more or less shit for recovery is now in a worse state and can't do it's job.
F. Your accuracy argument is dumb considering that Hydro Pump has bad accuracy in the first place.

Rotom is in a bad spot rn, with pokemon it usually would check like torn running knock off which just kills it, pokemon like Heatran who have several viable sets which just stop it from doing anything, and Zard Y, Serperior, Bulu and kart making comebacks (or just getting better) I don't believe rotom should be where it is and that it should move down.

And in regards to your first post. Celesteela leeches and protects taking more health from rotom then switches out, Pex has toxic on every good set rn, It's a bad ashgren counter, and I already mentioned torn. Rotom is ranked because of defog and the fact it has a somewhat good MU against portions of the meta, you may find it useful but it isn't good, and it should drop.
 
8FBA992D-E6B8-4190-A96E-FE9B966AB984.png
Kyurem-B from A- to A:
Kyurem-B is seriously slept on atm, specifically the Icium Z set. It’s power and coverage allows it to break pretty much any common defensive core you can think of. Tornpex, Gastrotran, Tangtorn. Bulupex, you name it. Even Mega Scizor isn’t completely safe because HP Fire honestly isn’t that bad, because of this.
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 127-150 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Heatran is not taking more than one. And if you have Koko support.
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Electric Terrain: 191-225 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Hazard control is in a very good condition right now, with Scarf Lando, Kartana, and others being very good atm.
Furthermore, a lot of teams rely on Pokémon like Greninja, Scarf Lando, Tornadus, Weavile, Mega Latios, and Mega Alakazam to deal with wallbreakers, none of which are consistent offensive countermeasures.
Although as not as important, AV Magearna, one of Kyurem’s best switchins is not that great atm, leaving it free to ravage bulkier teams.
Finally, Kyurem-B has plenty of opportunities to come in to wallbreaker atm, with Mega Latias, Serperior, Tapu Bulu, Shuca and Defog Koko, Tornadus-T, Toxapex, and Tangrowth all being very common or are rising stars.
Kyurem-B overall has a great matchup against common bulkier teams, has plenty of wallbreaking oppurtunitties, and doesn’t have to worry about Stealth Rock as much. Place this beast into A where it belongs.
 
I definitely can attest to Kyurem B rising. The meta has forgotten how threatening its wallbreaking capabilities are. I’ve used Kyurem B with Koko and I can say that the Fusion Bolt Electric Boost makes this thing a monster. Also Kingdra to C+. Idk how it’s stayed in B for so long.

TPP Edit: Deleted the part referring to a deleted post
 
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I Nominate Zygarde from A+ to S:
Apologies in advance if I come off as inflammatory, but did the VR Council even remotely discuss Zygarde whatsoever last slate? Because this was an extremely popular nomination the last time, and it wasn't particularly hard to see why so many people were on-board with nominating Zygarde for A+: this thing is extremely freaking good at an assortment of different things. The Thousand Arrows+Extreme Speed combo on its own is downright ludicrous, if Thousand Arrows wasn't already enough for you, it has a million and one different Dragon Dance sets alone, and it can find its way onto almost any archetype because it has a set for absolutely anything.

If even the incredibly balanced metagame that is DPP OU can have four S-rank threats, I can't see why Gen 7 OU cannot, for Zygarde is without question one of the most restrictive and threatening things in the current metagame. Its Choice Band set has basically no good switchins, its Double-Dance set is probably the most horrific thing you'll ever see on a Hyper Offense team, its Steelium Z sets let it take advantage of the increasingly-popular Bulu and Clefable, its rare Dragonium set can take advantage of the rise of Tangrowth, its Weakness Policy set can singlehandedly 6-0 an entire team if your opponent makes a single mistake, its Sub+Protect DD set can realistically stall out Tangrowth with Toxic Spikes support and then get downright obscene levels of boosts, and, hell, there are even more defensive sets, like SubToxic and SubCoil, that can take advantage of things that could even hope to attempt to bring one of its billion offensive sets down. If Clefable is being nominated to S, I think this thing has even more of a right to be nominated to S. And if Clefable truly belongs in S I think this thing belongs in S even more. This thing shouldn't have been A+ for so long when Kartana had its place in an S-rank for such a long period of time, because it is leaps and bounds better than almost anything else in A+ and a country mile better than anything below.
Going to echo this nomination.

I know a lot of people already made this nomination in the past, but...

I nominate Zygarde from A+ to S.



I apologize if this nomination is poor or at least not as good as the others, but I tried. With the rising popularity of Heatran and a decrease of usage of some certain checks to it like Mega Scizor and Celesteela, I think the meta is working more to it's advantage. Clefable rising in popularity and Mega Latios rising in popularity being able to take out Zygarde with one Draco Meteor but I think this should not prevent it from being below S tier. Zygarde also being in general a pretty good switch in or being able to take hits and to set up a Dragon Dance helps it a lot, considering it is quite hard for Pokémon who play offense and have not the best defense to switch in or to set up in this strong meta. Zygarde can take advantage of many Pokémon including the top two Pokémon of OU like Heatran and Landorous-T lacking Hidden Power Ice. Magnera is back into business, so Zygarde can weaken or potentially KO it with Thousand Arrows if it has taken even only a few damage. Like I said, Zygarde can be a big help for teams who have trouble with Heatran. Plus every Pokémon in OU has some certain counters that can be deadly to it, right?

Here is my personal favorite set.
Zygarde @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed
- Dragon Dance


A stab Thousand Arrows proves quite difficult for Heatran and it being able to ignore immunites is great, so it can hit Zapdos, Skarmony Celesteela and Landorous-T pretty hard. Skarmony may not be seeing much usage but Landorous-T is a strong top tier. Zapdos and Celesteela are still quite popular and being hit by a super-effective stab Thousand Arrows helps forces switches which can it can set up Dragon Dance.

Outrage is very strong on it especially with Dragonium Z witch can hit certain Pokémon really hard. Those defensive stats helping it to live helps it be able to continue to Outrage.

Extreme Speed helps it chip away Zygarde's feared revenge killers like Greninja, Greninja Battle Bond and Mega Latios. That is actually quite important, because it can be dealt with afterwards, killing off a threat. Greninja and Greninja Battle Bond show a ton of usage and are top threats in the meta game and Mega Latios is just getting better, so being able to hit it with Extreme Speed before dying is good. Sure you can swap from the revenge killers, but they are just so strong that the swap might not be worth it.

Dragon Dance is a good boosting tool which can cause it to damage through the opponent's team.

There are still many amazing sets like the Focus Sash suicide set and the Choice Band, but I think this is the top set right now.

What also helps its bulk and pretty decent offense stats can help it run great sets that can be quite a surprise sometimes. It is not the most unpredictable thing, but it is still unpredictable and can catch opponents by surprise.

I personally think it is better than probably all of the Pokémon in the A+ tier, which consists of already solid top threats.

Please forgive me if I made any mistakes or something. I tried.
 
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locri

formerly Lyd
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
I would comment on the discussion points but smogon nuked my draft :blobsad: so I’ll just make this one nomination for now.

Ribombee to C-


While I used to be a Ribombee hater, olt has shown me that this Pokémon can actually be decent. It has offensive pressure that Shuckle can only dream of, and Stun Spore lets it handle sweepers that would use it as bait. Thus it carves itself a niche compressing the roles of a Sticky Web setter that can also be somewhat dangerous with Quiver Dance and a blistering Speed tier. I’m not trying to argue that it’s better than Shuckle, because I don’t think that’s the case, but I do think this Pokémon deserves to be ranked. Since this is a UR nomination, I’ve picked a couple olt replays to showcase it, since it’s a public tour, I figured it was okay to post this here, but if any of the players don’t want their replays posted please lmk.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-777169220
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-777158217
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-777925592

Expect possibly another post from me soon on the Discussion Points.
 
Going to echo this nomination.

I know a lot of people already made this nomination in the past, but...

I nominate Zygarde from A+ to S.



I apologize if this nomination is poor or at least not as good as the others, but I tried. With the rising popularity of Heatran and a decrease of usage of some certain checks to it like Mega Scizor and Celesteela, I think the meta is working more to it's advantage. Clefable rising in popularity and Mega Latios rising in popularity being able to take out Zygarde with one Draco Meteor but I think this should not prevent it from being below S tier. Zygarde also being in general a pretty good switch in or being able to take hits and to set up a Dragon Dance helps it a lot, considering it is quite hard for Pokémon who play offense and have not the best defense to switch in or to set up in this strong meta. Zygarde can take advantage of many Pokémon including the top two Pokémon of OU like Heatran and Landorous-T lacking Hidden Power Ice. Magnera is back into business, so Zygarde can weaken or potentially KO it with Thousand Arrows if it has taken even only a few damage. Like I said, Zygarde can be a big help for teams who have trouble with Heatran. Plus every Pokémon in OU has some certain counters that can be deadly to it, right?

Here is my personal favorite set.
Zygarde @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed
- Dragon Dance


A stab Thousand Arrows proves quite difficult for Heatran and it being able to ignore immunites is great, so it can hit Zapdos, Skarmony Celesteela and Landorous-T pretty hard. Skarmony may not be seeing much usage but Landorous-T is a strong top tier. Zapdos and Celesteela are still quite popular and being hit by a super-effective stab Thousand Arrows helps forces switches which can it can set up Dragon Dance.

Outrage is very strong on it especially with Dragonium Z witch can hit certain Pokémon really hard. Those defensive stats helping it to live helps it be able to continue to Outrage.

Extreme Speed helps it chip away Zygarde's feared revenge killers like Greninja, Greninja Battle Bond and Mega Latios. That is actually quite important, because it can be dealt with afterwards, killing off a threat. Greninja and Greninja Battle Bond show a ton of usage and are top threats in the meta game and Mega Latios is just getting better, so being able to hit it with Extreme Speed before dying is good. Sure you can swap from the revenge killers, but they are just so strong that the swap might not be worth it.

Dragon Dance is a good boosting tool which can cause it to damage through the opponent's team.

There are still many amazing sets like the Focus Sash suicide set and the Choice Band, but I think this is the top set right now.

What also helps its bulk and pretty decent offense stats can help it run great sets that can be quite a surprise sometimes. It is not the most unpredictable thing, but it is still unpredictable and can catch opponents by surprise.

I personally think it is better than probably all of the Pokémon in the A+ tier, which consists of already solid top threats.

Please forgive me if I made any mistakes or something. I tried.
Just so you know, Celesteela is checked by Zygarde and not the other way around, and Dragonium Z is its worst set since a few months, Groundium Z and Weakness Policy are much better sets.

Edit: I just saw that you mentioned Focush Sash Suicide Lead as another Zygarde set but that has never been a set and never will. Suicide leads are supposed to set up Hazards, Screens, Aurora Veil, Trick room or whatever. But Zygarde doesn't do any of that, it can't be a good Suicide Lead when it isn't one
 
Zygarde A+ >>> S Huge Agree

Zygarde, once in the depths of BL, has risen to ABSOLUTE STARDOM in (U)SM OU courtesy of it’s extremely broken signature move in Thousand Arrows. It’s the premier offensive threat to prepare for since ages and the VR should reflect that. Zygarde to S- or S was indeed an extremely popular nomination and it’s not hard to see why. Its million different sets have been running every archetype bar stall for a long time now. Imo it deserves the S rank way more than Clefable. But somehow, there is no trace of it in the previous update post.

A set I absolutely love to use is this Double Dance set with slightly twerked EVs.

Zygarde@Leftovers
Aura Break
188 HP/ 156 SpD/ 104 Spe/ 60 Att
Adamant Nature

- Dragon Dance
- Coil
- Substitute
- Thousand Arrows

Survives (with Leftovers):
Including but not limited to...
- two HP Ices from Shuca Koko and Scarf Lando
- two Moonblasts from Clefable
- two Psychics from Modest Mega-Zam
- +3 Bug Buzz from Volcarona

Outruns Timid Magearna
Creates 101 Subs to setup on Chansey's face
Ensures Tangrowth doesn't break your Sub with Giga Drain, should it lack HP Ice
Drastically lowers the chances of Ash Greninja revenge killing you with Shuriken

The slightest opportunity is turned into an absolute nightmare for the opponent by this Zygarde. Pair this thing up with Toxapex's Toxic Spikes to break Bulu and Tang, Tyranitar to break the majority of defoggers, Heatran to trap Clefable and break bulky grasses, a Stealth Rocker if Heatran doesn't run it and a Defogger and you my friend have created a monstrous team.

This is just one set though. Zygarde has lots of other sets with equally demolishing and surprising effects (looking at you, Z-Iron Tail!) and therefore I believe it should be ranked S, simply because of its versatility and large teambuilding constraint.
 
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Felixx

Death Race for Love
is a Pre-Contributor
: From C- to the Shadow Realm

Before I even start discussing this unranking, I want to state that I actually have used this mon before, and I was really, really, disappointed by how bad it actually was. I understand its main niche is that of a Defogger that can beat Ash-Greninja and Heatran, while also dealing with other threats such as Tapu Bulu and Zygarde and spreading paras with Body Slam, but as of recent that niche has basically been diminished and the OU VR should reflect this, now let me explain.

Basically, I consider M-Alt currently unviable because of a bunch of different metagame trends, such as Heatran opting to Steelium Z sets which will outspeed bulky M-Alt and smash it in one go, preventing it from even living a hit going for a suicide Defog against Heatran. Also, when I mentioned that M-Alt checks Tapu Bulu, I was talking about the AV set which gets overshadowed by bulky SD Bulu, which is able to set-up on M-Alt and only worry about paras and nothing else.
This is what +6 no investment Tapu Bulu does to the normal M-Alt spread OUTSIDE of Grassy Terrain

+6 0 Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Altaria-Mega: 144-171 (40.7 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And M-Alt does jack shit back

0 Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Body Slam vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 106-126 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

0 Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Body Slam vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 106-126 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- 83.7% chance to 3HKO

I understand you're risking paras especially with the Grassy Terrain not up, but this is still not a good look for Alt.


Besides this, Ash-Greninja has fallen a little out of favour, and more Protean Greninja have started appearing to break down Balance builds, and they will always be able to hit M-Alt with a strong coverage move, either Gunk Shot or Ice Beam works, and they will also be able to keep up their Spikes against it and prevent it from Defogging successfully. Furthermore, Zygarde have ben running around with Iron Tail because of Tapu Bulu, so M-Alt just dosen't suffice as a check to it. There's also the fact that its bulk is just mediocre all around without Lefties, and it gets overpowered by M-Latios, M-Zam, and offensive Tornadus all pretty easily, and Celesteela going full force in the current meta with said Psychic and Flying-types being so threatening is also really bad for it.
It's not even a good Banded Zygarde answer, and a lot DD sets run Iron Tail now

252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Altaria-Mega: 144-171 (40.7 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Latios-Mega Psychic vs. 248 HP / 68 SpD Altaria-Mega: 154-183 (43.6 - 51.8%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO

With rocks up / running Ice Beam, M-Latios just beats it down

252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 248 HP / 68 SpD Altaria-Mega: 166-196 (47 - 55.5%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO

That's Timid Zam btw, most Zam are actually Modest these days.

252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 68 SpD Altaria-Mega: 144-171 (40.7 - 48.4%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Hurricane has some shaky accuracy, but it also has an annoying confusion chance plus you can just hit the Z button


Finally, there are just naturally a lot of defensive mons besides Celesteela that don't care about it, Gliscor is a great check since it can't be paralyzed and just SDs up on it, and Ferrothorn and Clefable can still both get up hazards against it and it can't Defog them away. And don't even get me started on how its DD set gets outclassed by Zygarde and M-Gyara.



TL;DR: It's a shitty Defogger that can't even remove hazards from the most common rockers, and it also fails to check much at all.
 
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