Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

here's some high ladder games (like 1800 - 2050 elo) where kommo did some serious work with the ddance z-clang set (ie the best one). this team peaked #1 on ladder fwiw.

Sweeps from turn 1:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-723514571

Sweeps half their team mid-game until it was finally weak enough for a weavile revenge, but it was already gg. Didn't even have screens up:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-724036598

I didn't get webs or rocks up cuz i forgot iron head has a 100% flinch chance, but kommo still 6-0d easily:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-832591125

Stopped mawile sweep, sets up on brave bird koko, then countersweeps the last 4 members of their team because kommo takes 15% from leaf storm. zygarde was some bullshit spdef variant that i had like an 85% chance to ko anyway. it's not kommos fault that i upset the hax gods:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-832621228

i let ash gren transform right away because he's an easy setup opprotunity for kommo who came in right after and swept their team (with no rocks or webs).

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-832634224


tl;dw: it still gets outsped by some fast things after a ddance, you have to choose between killing toxapex or fairies because 4mss, it needs decent support to reach its full potential.

but also it has a great def typing and bulk, it has high bp stabs like a 185 bp special dragon move that boosts all of its stats, its a naturally strong check to some big threats (like blacephalon and serp since immune to shadow ball and can hit through subs, ninja because easily resists stabs and 1hkos, etc.), and speed issues can be mitigated w/ smart use of ddance and clangorous
 
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here's some high ladder games (like 1800 - 2050 elo) where kommo did some serious work with the ddance z-clang set (ie the best one). this team peaked #1 on ladder fwiw.

Sweeps from turn 1:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-723514571

Sweeps half their team mid-game until it was finally weak enough for a weavile revenge, but it was already gg. Didn't even have screens up:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-724036598

I didn't get webs or rocks up cuz i forgot iron head has a 100% flinch chance, but kommo still 6-0d easily:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-832591125

Stopped mawile sweep, sets up on brave bird koko, then countersweeps the last 4 members of their team because kommo takes 15% from leaf storm. zygarde was some bullshit spdef variant that i had like an 85% chance to ko anyway. it's not kommos fault that i upset the hax gods:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-832621228

i let ash gren transform right away because he's an easy setup opprotunity for kommo who came in right after and swept their team (with no rocks or webs).

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-832634224


tl;dw: it still gets outsped by some fast things after a ddance, you have to choose between killing toxapex or fairies because 4mss, it needs decent support to reach its full potential.

but also it has a great def typing and bulk, it has high bp stabs like a 185 bp special dragon move that boosts all of its stats, its a naturally strong check to some big threats (like blacephalon and serp since immune to shadow ball and can hit through subs, ninja because easily resists stabs and 1hkos, etc.), and speed issues can be mitigated w/ smart use of ddance and clangorous
One thing I'd like to add to these replays is that once kommo-o is set up it doesn't have to play around anything, just attack what's in front of it. No needing to hit things on the switch as some other sweepers do.

Demi I was wondering what nature/ev spread you're running in these replays. Your clanging scales seem to hit harder than mine. Also I'm assuming +1 close combat is eating mage alive?
 

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Ladies and gentlemen boys and girls, I bring to you the slate!

List of things voted on | Votes tallied

Rises
  • from A+ to S: Ash Greninja fits on to an absurdly high amount of teams right now. Need something to clean out and consistently threaten offense while having a great speed tier? Ash Greninja is the definition of that. Need something to pressure balanced cores early in games? Ash Greninja is perfect for doing this, especially seeing as it can bluff Protean the first time it can come in. This overlaps with the last question a bit given Spikes impact, but need an offensive Spike setter? Ash Greninja is again easily the best with this. These and many more positive, practical labels can be used to describe what Ash Greninja brings to the table. Nothing else in the metagame has such a consistently dynamic, progress making presence to gameplay in the tier. Sure, Ash Greninja is frail and the SDef Grass types that are spammed check/counter it, but we're not arguing for Ash Greninja to be banned -- it's not outright broken. It's just a top tier Pokemon that is incredible at doing its job, supporting teams, etc. It is a pretty clear-cut rise to S.
  • from A- to A: Mega Tyranitar has slowly become one of the better Stealth Rock setters and offensive utility presences in the metagame. It is one of the few Pokemon that can consistently set up Stealth Rock regardless of the opposing Defogger, making it incredibly practical against bulkier teams, and it has ridiculous natural bulk, letting it survive attacks one would think it had no business living. On top of this, Mega Tyranitar is a strong physical attacking presence, allowing it to effectively Pursuit trap specific targets and muscle through some pivots in the long-haul. As of late, Mega Tyranitar's niche has been taken advantage of on more and more teams, thus leading to us moving it up to A rank.
  • from B+ to A-: Mega Diancie was once thought of as a very underwhelming presence in the SM OU metagame, but recently it has finally recognized some of the niche people believed it would have. Much like Mega Tyranitar, Mega Diancie is a superb Stealth Rock setter, pushing the issue on bulkier teams and Defoggers throughout the metagame. While it lacks the defensive presence to fully abuse the ability Magic Bounce, Mega Diancie still has some practical applications on that front and it also is a strong offensive presence with respectable coverage. Given the recent surge of Mega Diancie usage, we feel that moving it up to A- is appropriate.
  • from B+ to A-: The scrappy, annoying-to-face washing machine is finally seeing some love in SM. While Rotom-Wash's niche has not expanded and it pretty much is up to the same old tricks as it has been throughout the generation, people have been using it on bulky-offensive teams a lot more. While Rotom-Wash is just generally a nice pivot, it also has likely been seeing more usage due to how it does against top metagame threats such as Heatran, Greninja, Landorus-Therian, Tornadus-Therian, etc., thus leading to it rising into the A subranks for the first time in a while.
  • from B+ to A-: Another Pokemon who has seen better days in past years, but is now finally starting to live up to its potential once more, is Garchomp. With the Z-Stone Edge set proving to be a consistent force in the metagame, be it as an offensive threat or Stealth Rock setter, Garchomp has proven to have quite the place in the metagame. Couple this with the more niche, but still noteworthy, Rocky Helmet variant picking up in usage slowly on bulky-offense and you should not be too surprised to see it move up once again, now landing in the A- subrank.
  • from B to B+: Honestly, I'm far from the biggest advocare of Mega Heracross, having voted for it to stay in B repeatedly. With that said, the others feel a rise is best and I can still understand why; Mega Heracross is the epitome of potency, posing a threat to every single viable Pokemon in the metagame. While it does have some counterplay, the SD + 3A variant is a premier stallbreaker and it also consistently pushes the issue against balance as well, oftentimes getting multiple kills if properly supported and played. While there is a strong opportunity cost brought upon teams that elect to use Mega Heracross, it at least lacks paper-thin defenses that other threatening mega evolutions have, helping it retain viability despite lackluster speed. All things considered, Mega Heracross has seen a bit more usage as of late, so it is rising from B to B+.
  • from B- to B: Speak of stallbreakers, Substitute + Calm Mind Blacephalon happens to just outright win against roughly 2/3 of the stall teams you see out there currently, so it is another increasingly viable option. To add onto this, Blacephalon also can run a nasty Choice Specs set, leaving absolutely nothing safe aside from Tyranitar, and a dangerous Choice Scarf set, setting up for a potential late-game snowball clean. Given all of these factors, we have elected to move the shit clown from B- to B.
  • from B- to B: Tapu Fini has been flirting with mediocrity ever since its golden days passed in early SM, when it was somehow among the top tier of Pokemon due to the utility people associated with it. Nowadays, it is still doing what it has been for the past year and change: flirting with mediocrity. However, with the increasingly threatening nature of Ash Greninja, Heatran, and various others, Tapu Fini has at least been called on slightly more as a defensive and utility presence, thus making a rise to B no real surprise despite it ultimately being a marginal departure from past norms.
  • from C+ to B-: Slowbro has been...slow...to make an impact on the SM OU metagame and it still is far from even being in the conversation to be a metagame staple like it was in ORAS OU, but Slowbro has at least made numerous appearances as a defensive Regenerator pivot in recent months. Being able to stand-up to Mega Medicham, Zygarde, Mega Lopunny, and most Heatran allows for Slowbro to be a great fit on a number of structures. Given this, Slowbro deserves to at least be ranked above C+, so we moved it up a little to B- for the time being.
  • from UR to C-: The Klanger has finally hit the threshold for viability in the SM OU metagame in the collective opinion of the VR Council. While it is still a long way from being "relevant", Kommo-O does have a niche on a number of fronts. People like Eo Ut Mortus have used it as a convenient Specially Defensive Stealth Rock setter on specific stall builds while numerous others have taken advantage of its offensive tools, using the signature Z move or Belly Drum variants on HO teams that grant it sufficient support to function. It may be inconsistent, but Kommo-O has a place in the metagame, even if that place currently is at the very bottom of the VR list!
Drops
  • from A+ to A: Mega Alakazam may very well have had the title of best mega evolution in SM OU for a couple months, but after a reign of dominance, it has finally taken a bit. While Mega Alakazam is still a fine choice, teams have gradually become increasingly prepared for it. Counterplay is not numerous, but it is commonly utilized. This coupled with increased competition in the mega slot and simply metagame trends making other options more appealing as time elapses ultimately leads to the small drop in Mega Alakazam viability from A+ to A. For my individual thoughts on this, there is more to be read here.
  • from A+ to A: Protean Greninja is still a very viable presence in the metagame, but we feel as if it is a step below that of everything else currently in A+. While it has unmatched versatility and may be a headache to switch into initially, not a ton of teams take full advantage of it right now; this is primarily showcased by the fairly pedestrian Choice Scarf set seeing a majority of Protean Greninja's usage. While that set is fine for doing its job, I feel like it is not exactly an A+ metagame presence. The other variants of Greninja, especially the Z Spikes+3A/4A sets, are what makes it as viable as it is and those simply have seen much better days in the past, thus leading to it dropping into A rank for the time being.
  • from A to A-: Once one of the surprises of the metagame, rising from essentially unviable territory last generation to a top tier Pokemon, Mega Latios has hit a bit of a plateau in the "good, but not great" portion of the tier. Similarly to Mega Alakazam, the metagame simply has not been too kind in terms of trends that impact the usage of Mega Latios. While it is still a very viable option, we're dropping it to A-.
  • from A to A-: Mega Scizor does not see a ton of usage right now. While we think it will always be a nice utility pivot/win condition on balance, the metagame just is not overly favorable to it, especially given the competition in the mega slot, the fact that Magnezone is relatively common, and the lack of breaking prowess it has relative to alternatives. It is not hard to justify using Mega Scizor, but it still has enough shortcomings and problematic MUs to where we decided to drop it to A-, which reflects its overall viability a bit more accurately.
  • from A to A-: This one is probably surprising and perhaps not considered at all by most people, making it a more controversial drop than most of the others, but hear me out. Despite having a noteworthy presence as a dual screens and Electric Terrain setter on numerous HOs that see usage in the current metagame, Tapu Koko's offensive presence on normal, balanced or bulky-offensive teams has diminished a ton as of late. The Defog variant is still passable, but even that is losing steam, hence the description being passable as opposed to "good" or "consistent". Pure offensive Z or Shuca variants are hardly seen anymore in tournaments while Specs literally does not exist. We feel as if Tapu Koko is falling off and just not worth being A ranked currently, especially seeing as it is hard-walled by a number of common Pokemon, so we decided to drop it to A-.
  • from A- to B+: The once notoriously potent win condition in Hawlucha has died down, becoming much less consistent and far less common. Overall, Hawlucha is still an effective win condition or at least decent as a hole opener for win conditions that can clean up later on in games such as Zygarde. However, it lacks the same degree of potency that it once had earlier this year and teams with it are mostly being faded it, so we felt that it no longer had a place in A-.
  • from B+ to B: One of the more stealth, yet devastating, presences of ORAS OU simply never translated fully to SM OU, in Weavile. While the fast Ice/Dark offensive presence still has a niche thanks to Pursuit, respectable dual STAB, and the combination of high speed and Ice Shard in order to function as speed control in a pinch, Weavile simply does not have a place on a vast majority of structures and it also is walled by a number of common things, thus making it a better fit in B than B+ currently.
  • from B- to C+ and
    from B- to C+: While both Gengar and Volcanion are different Pokemon, I feel that both have very similar places in the metagame; on paper, they are quite annoying to common structures, perhaps even lacking directly reliable counterplay on most teams. However, in practice they are far harder to successfully integrate onto teams due to a variety of unfavorable characteristics. Gengar happens to be Pursuit weak, ridiculously frail, and no longer benefiting fully from a usually superb speed tier due to the common nature of Tornadus-Therian and Greninja. Volcanion is Stealth Rock weak, relatively slow, and put in an awkward position against a number of common cores, thus making it reliant upon decent amounts of support. All things considered, both are dropping from B- to C+ given what was stated above.
  • from C+ to C: Barring a rogue Belly Drum Azumarill sighting on a couple HO teams, there really is no place for Azumarill in the metagame and it is hardly seen. Because of this, we elected to drop it a little more, reflecting its current position in the metagame.
  • from C to C-: Mega Camerupt was once a pretty cool idea, seeing usage in WCOP 2017 as a decent anti-balance measure and check to things like Tapu Koko and Magearna. Nowadays, the camel is essentially dead, so we will drop it to the bottom of the barrel and see what happens from there.
  • from C to C- and
    from C to C-: Both were previously viable predominantly for their place on Trick Room teams. We feel that this variant of team has been seeing less usage as of late and is increasingly niche as opposed to consistent, so the drop feels justified, even if it is a marginal difference.
  • from C- to UR: The great demise of Azelf has been spread across a number of generations now. Once upon a time, Azelf was an OU mainstay, arguably even a staple, dominating the lead game in DPP OU as a Stealth Rock setter that left with a boom. However, various elements that were added to the game that we play in the modern day have made it less effective as time elapsed; the most notable of these elements would have to be Team Preview and Defog mechanics, both of which made it far less viable, at least in an OU setting. After all of these years, Azelf has finally run out of viability, leaving it now unranked. You may see one once in a blue moon as a Stealth Rock setter on HO teams, but it is oftentimes outclassed by Lead Excadrill or Landorus-Therian, both of which can run Focus Sash lead Stealth Rock sets with more consistency and effectiveness.

Discussion Points

Rises:
Crawdaunt from C to C+
Garchomp-Mega from C- to C

Drops:
Clefable from A to A-
Gyarados from B+ to B
Mega Gyarados from B to B-
Kingdra from B to B-
Qwilfish from C to C-
 
Ladies and gentlemen boys and girls, I bring to you the slate!

Rises
  • from A+ to S: Ash Greninja fits on to an absurdly high amount of teams right now. Need something to clean out and consistently threaten offense while having a great speed tier? Ash Greninja is the definition of that. Need something to pressure balanced cores early in games? Ash Greninja is perfect for doing this, especially seeing as it can bluff Protean the first time it can come in. This overlaps with the last question a bit given Spikes impact, but need an offensive Spike setter? Ash Greninja is again easily the best with this. These and many more positive, practical labels can be used to describe what Ash Greninja brings to the table. Nothing else in the metagame has such a consistently dynamic, progress making presence to gameplay in the tier. Sure, Ash Greninja is frail and the SDef Grass types that are spammed check/counter it, but we're not arguing for Ash Greninja to be banned -- it's not outright broken. It's just a top tier Pokemon that is incredible at doing its job, supporting teams, etc. It is a pretty clear-cut rise to S.
  • from A- to A: Mega Tyranitar has slowly become one of the better Stealth Rock setters and offensive utility presences in the metagame. It is one of the few Pokemon that can consistently set up Stealth Rock regardless of the opposing Defogger, making it incredibly practical against bulkier teams, and it has ridiculous natural bulk, letting it survive attacks one would think it had no business living. On top of this, Mega Tyranitar is a strong physical attacking presence, allowing it to effectively Pursuit trap specific targets and muscle through some pivots in the long-haul. As of late, Mega Tyranitar's niche has been taken advantage of on more and more teams, thus leading to us moving it up to A rank.
  • from B- to B: Tapu Fini has been flirting with mediocrity ever since its golden days passed in early SM, when it was somehow among the top tier of Pokemon due to the utility people associated with it. Nowadays, it is still doing what it has been for the past year and change: flirting with mediocrity. However, with the increasingly threatening nature of Ash Greninja, Heatran, and various others, Tapu Fini has at least been called on slightly more as a defensive and utility presence, thus making a rise to B no real surprise despite it ultimately being a marginal departure from past norms.
  • from UR to C-: The Klanger has finally hit the threshold for viability in the SM OU metagame in the collective opinion of the VR Council. While it is still a long way from being "relevant", Kommo-O does have a niche on a number of fronts. People like Eo Ut Mortus have used it as a convenient Specially Defensive Stealth Rock setter on specific stall builds while numerous others have taken advantage of its offensive tools, using the signature Z move or Belly Drum variants on HO teams that grant it sufficient support to function. It may be inconsistent, but Kommo-O has a place in the metagame, even if that place currently is at the very bottom of the VR list!
Happy with these rises. Ash-Gren is in my opinion the best mon in the meta (come at me tran and lando fanboys) and I hardly ever make an offensive or balanced team without it. Tapu fini is just an all around solid mon with both ash-gren and stall more prominent now. I haven't used mega ttar's utility sets which seem to be the source of its rise, but its ddance set is still a ridiculous threat and I just love its design so go tyrant go.

Lastly Kommo-O is a dude, glad to see its finally getting the recognition its due!

To address the discussion points:

Crawdaunt C to C+: Agree The Crayfish is ridiculously hard to switch into. A long time staple on full trick room teams (I think its the second most valuable mon to the playstyle after mage) it can also be a breaker on balance or a surprise sweeper when paired with a lone wolf TR mage.

Garchomp-Mega from C- to C: No comment I don't know enough about what mega garchomp does nowadays having rarely seen it on the ladder and not having used it since I had a sand team in ORAS. Is it a breaker on sand, phaser on hazard stack? Z-crystal seemed to kill the niche it used to have in ORAS.

Clefable from A to A-: Agree Clef still does clef things, but magic guard is the worst I can remember it in a long time. The rise of glare means the little fairy often finds itself paralyzed whether its mguard checking zyg, or unaware checking zyg or serp. Ash-gren counters tend to all beat it and as the frog ninja has taken over the meta so have mage, pex, and bulu. Both versions of clef get worn down easilly.

Gyarados from B+ to B: Agree Life has gotten a bit harder for normal gyara and a bit better for its mega form. Would like to seem them flip flop in the rankings.

Mega-Gyarados from B to B-: Disagree Life has gotten a bit harder for normal gyara and a bit better for its mega form. Would like to seem them flip flop in the rankings. But since this is probably the more controversial statement I'll elaborate. Taunt + moldbreaker gives mega-gayarados a valuable niche as a breaker that can also sweep.

Kingdra from B to B-, Qwilfish from C to C-: Agree Pairing the rain mons because this is really a commentary on rain. Rain has seen its best days behind it in my opinion. People just know how to play it better and neither of these mons has any role outside of rain.

Nominations:

Serperior: B+ to A- Glare spam is all the rage these days and GlareSeed is a bastard set that outside of volcarona, ferrothorn, and the rarely seen Kommo-o/sap sip azumarill is not easy to handle (and rona hates being para'd). What I think really sets serperior deserving a kick up a notch is the emergence of its scarf set. Leaf storm Glare Defog Filler provides a lot of support for a team outspeeds just about everything and late game cleans like a boss. Plus I've lost scarf lando to it a few times trying to revenge kill what I hoped was GlareSeed.

Magearna: A+ to S The current A+ tier has 3 mons that I would consider A++/S- Mage, Zyg, and Maw. Of the three, I think Mage is by far the best and deserves at least a discussion of a rise. AV Mage has become a splashable staple checking a host of dangerous special attackers most notably Ash-gren and tapu lele as well as notorious breaker kyurem black. The rise of AV Mage have made its offensive sets all the more dangerous. Lone Trick room flips games like nobodies business, and shift gear is still terrifying. Like Volcarona, its offensive sets usually get to choose their counters by virtue of z-crystal (I've seen twinkle, pummeling, gigavolt, and corkscrew). Furthermore Mage is a defining feature of an entire archetype. I've seen full TR teams with any number combination of setters and abusers. I can't recall seeing a decent TR team without Mage. For its multiple A/A+ level sets I consider Mage an S-level threat.
 
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Alright, I'll take a discussion point right off the bat: Clefable

Clefable used to be one of the best mons in the tier, being used as a rocker, checks to Hawlucha, Zygarde, Lopunny, etc. Recently, however, Clefable has fell in usage due to Alakazam's increased usage. Clefable doesn't want to take a psychic, and even if it could, it wouldn't really be able to do much back. Clefable has also fallen from power due to there being better stealth rockers and Hawlucha's drop in usage. However, this being said does not mean Clefable is necessarily a bad choice, it's just not as ideal as it used to be. That's why I believe that Clefable should be moved from A to A-.
 

Jordy

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→ A- Agree
This is mostly just a rehash of my earlier post but I'll repeat it to make my thoughts on Clefable clear. Clefable's honestly a very bad Zygarde answer with Iron Tail variants being common, as well as Glare, which greatly cripples Clefable and means it will create even more free switches. In general, the metagame puts a lot of pressure on Clefable with the prominence of big threats like Mega Mawile, Heatran, Magearna, Tapu Bulu, and Volcarona, which can easily abuse Clefable. Hawlucha's fallen off the face of the earth, which also leaves less pressure on balanced teams to run Clefable to check it. Lastly, stall teams are pretty well prepared for Clefable now too, between Moltres, Pyukumuku, Celesteela, and even Mega Aggron, Clefable doesn't do a very good job at pressuring any common stall teams.

→ B- Agree
Mega Gyarados is honestly really bad. The fact that bulky Grass-types are on like a solid 90% of the current teams greatly hinders Mega Gyarados, as it is often incapable to sweep or even pressure a team well enough if the bulky Grass-type is not significantly weakened. There's really nothing more to it than that; Mega Gyarados is bad because of the popularity of bulky Grass-types.

→ UR
I've nommed it down before but Shuckle doesn't have a niche in the current tier and should thus be unranked. The only thing Shuckle offers is compressing Sticky Web and Stealth Rock into one slot, but Sticky Web teams often don't care whether they have 4 or 5 slots to fit other Pokemon in. Other Sticky Web setters, namely Araquanid and Ribombee, and Stealth Rock setters, namely Landorus-T and Excadrill, are also more consistent at keeping the respective hazard up than Shuckle.
 

lyd

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I’ll leave my thoughts on the current discussion points again:

to C+: Agree

Crawdaunt has shown some success outside of exclusively Hyper Offense teams—mostly seen on Talah’s team with it—and I think that’s a pretty good sign. It’s a great wallbreaker and it deserves a bit more respect. I agree with the rise.

to C: Agree

I don’t quite see why this is a discussion point, but well, it makes some sense in my eyes. I’ve recently tried to try my own take on that classic Ben Gay Mega Garchomp team and it worked out surprisingly well. I think this Pokémon fits the C rank a bit better than C-, but I don’t have too strong of an opinion.

to A-: Agree

Yeah, Clefable isn’t quite keeping up. I find it almost kind of a “jack of all trades, master of none” type of Pokémon, and that makes it especially tough to fit into Balance as—despite it actually being a decent rocker and Wish and TWave being cool utility moves—it doesn’t check enough stuff. I just find it honestly a bit lacking in the current meta and A- seems to suit it a lot better.

to B: Disagree
to B-: Agree

I think Gyarados showed plenty of success in OLT but died down a bit afterwards. Nonetheless I still think B is a little too low for it. It’s still a really threatening pick and can be a big nuisance to several teams. Its Mega Evolution—on the other hand— is a bit lacking, I feel, and deserves a drop. Like Jordy pointed out, it’s rather easy to cover with most teams, and it really lacks the power that its not-Mega brother packs. Heck, even stall has plenty of ways around it.

to B-: Disagree
to C-: Agree

While Kingdra is often getting replaced with Ash-Greninja or even Manaphy on rain, I think it still has a sizeable niche as an Ash-Greninja check of its own. Not something I’d strongly defend, but in my eyes Kingdra is leaning more towards B than B-. As for Qwilfish, I really don’t see much reason for it anymore. Back in TSpikes meta it was cool for rain as it was a reliable remover, but now the move is used a lot less often and while it’s still decently powerful, I believe rain has better options for the most part, C- seems very reasonable.
 
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Crawdaunt Rise: Yes

Has practically no switchins except bulu and kind of fini, who are easy to lure/take advantage of at this point considering how much the meta has had to adapt to zygarde/ninja/etc checks. Outspeeds and 2hkos tangrowth, 2hkos mega agron and pyumukuk with band, etc. God forbid it have swords dance against stall. Like mawile, it can't really switch into many offensive mons, so it needs some support to get in (hence why it's C+ and not A). It's not impossible though considering it forces out a set of common mons (heatran assuming they dont want to waste firium on crawdaunt or get kod by a band aqua jet lol, defesnvie mag, toxapex, celesteela, etc.) that are genearlly used as pivots. So usually just double switch out of gren, lele, etc., because they dont really have much room early on to risk not switching in the pex/mag/etc. This plus aqua jet lets it do at least some work against most offensive teams.

Also, trick room is a bit weaker now than it was before, but it's worth noting that crawdaunt is second only to marowak in usage for tr abusers. Since TR staple cresselia is now in C, it makes sense that crawdaunt should be higher, since it is also a tr staple but has use outside of tr as well. Tbh marowak and cress should probably be in the same rank for that reason (and because marowak also decimates p much every defensive mon, can set up rocks, and can tank some hits from choice kartana, heatran, koko, etc.), but marowak isn't as good as crawdaunt outside of tr so ymmv.


Garchomp Rise: Yes

Also decimates stall in sand, but does much better against balance/offense teams because of its faster-than-lando speed and zygarde-level bulk. Plus, you dont have to megavolve right away if you just want a normal garchomp w/ no item for a bit. It sucks to lose z move on normal garchomp, but mega stone edge in sand is only a bit weaker than z stone edge, so it's not that bad. Plus, you can abuse broken sand veil before evolvng! It also sucks that you cant use mega ttar, but avest ttar, etc. is really good rn anyway, so its not that big of a deal. Aslo as a sidenote, you can use normal garchomp for a bit before mega evolving, so it should not be 8000 ranks below normal garchomp lol I get ranking megachomp itself independently, but in reality we shouldnt ignore that utility since it's one of the few megas who is useful before evolving even without an item.

Clefable Drop: Yes

Everytime i try to fit clef on a team lately, it ends up opening more holes. It can't switch into/wall and is even set up bait for heatran, z-fly lando, greninja, mag, mawile, z-zygarde, kartana, medicham, lele, volc, blaceohalon, etc. Unaware sets have trouble with most of the same things, if not more. It's easily overpowered by most of the same things, on top of taking chip damage. On stall, quag or pyuk are more consistent in many builds.

It's still pretty good at what it does, obviously, but the meta is not kind to it right now, and it ends up being a liability too often for it to be at the very top.

rain sweeper drops: yeah.

Kingdra is underrated and could potentially stay, but rain as a whole is weaker right now, so it figures that the 2 optional rain sweepers should drop accordingly.

gyara drops: no

Sub z gyara is still a potent threat that is underprepared for. Mega gyara isnt as strong, but that's why it's a sbrank lower. That said, it hasn't really gotten worse. If anything, the meta has gotten more favourable. Clefable was a flimsy check, but it still threatened to stop a sweep bar a waterfall flinch because of moonblast. Quagsire and pyu are far less threatening. It doesn't really care about lando, and it fares well vs both Heatran and Greninja, especially on offense where your defensive options are limited. Being able to play mind games with flying/dark typing by postponing transformation is nice, and waterfall flinches suck and really aren't that uncommon, to the point where its hard to feel safe running just one counter knowing that an inevitable flinch is RIP

It's not like grass types weren't already everywhere. In fact, notice that lots of the recent & proposed rises typically struggle against bulu and tangrowth. If anything, zfly gyara is a nice matchup (especially if it isn't obvious whether or not it's mega) as long as your don't waste your z move on something dumb. Plus, all the outrage/iron tail
zygardes, ice beam ash grens, etc make it pretty easy to support gyara. Or be extra boojie and run ice fang on mega gyara to help pave the way for zygarde and co.

They might drop eventually, but idt this is the right time for that, especially normal gyara.


irt jordy's shuckle nom: shuckle should not be unranked. Its utility is super underrated on web hyper offense. Role compression w/ rocks+webs is really useful, especially since most rocks setters are defog bait. Even if they can ko back, webs are still gone, and they rarely have the ability to actually take advantage of the free turn via setup, etc. Idk what you mean by webs/ho not caring about an extra teamslot. That's just straight up false for obvious reasons, especially in this gen/meta. One teamslot is the difference between being able to break stall, or check hyper offense, or deal with hawlucha and rain and sand rush, etc. You're severely underrating synergy on offense builds

Meanwhile, shuckle can sack itself w/ final gambit on the defog/spin switchin, letting you stop defog and gain huge momentum. Encore is obviously great for taking advantage of defog/allowing set up turns for teammates, and infestation can mirror the utility of final gambit by preventing switching in the first place.

I dismissed shuckle too until I actually played with it and realised it differentiates itself well from the other 2 setters and offers some cool flexibility in the rest of the team (like the sableye vs aggron dynamic). See ske mask's webs team for a modern example. It's a v good team
 
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Estronic

mechanical fever
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to UR: Agreed
For a Sticky Web user used on HO teams, I feel like Shuckle is is very lackluster compared to the Sticky Web leads Jordy mentioned such as Ribombee and Araquanid. I could almost say, unless you have Final Gambit for the momentum (which in my opinion is a waste of a moveslot anyways), it plays too "passive" for a lead, if that makes sense. For example, Ribombee can utilize Stun Spore so if Sticky Web gets removed, there's still at least one Pokemon you're able to gain momentum on, as well as having Sweet Veil and the possibility of good damage with Quiver Dance. Araquanid, though slower, can utilize Magic Coat against Stealth Rock leads and has a very hard-hitting Liquidation that compliments it nice Special Defense bulk.

Shuckle is able to set up Sticky Web and Stealth Rock, but, to be honest, the fact that Sticky Web already allows for Pokemon with potential to OHKO many opponents held back by their Speed makes Stealth Rock a mere little bonus. Sturdy (which is kinda useless with its defenses) allows it to run Mental Herb, but there's literally no other option, so opponents would most likely just lead with their burst damage and most likely 2HKO Shuckle, which means it can't even get up Stealth Rock. Encore and a filler move like Toxic or Knock Off is nice, but it'll most likely be gone before you can even utilize it.

Overall, though Sticky Web users only really have one job to lead and set up, Shuckle is lacking compared to other Sticky Web users in terms of the utility after setting up Stick Web. Ribombee and Araquanid provide so much more as a lead to a HO, which is why I believe Shuckle should be UR.

Sorry if this seems sloppy, first post of a long-time lurker here.

(also Uxie is listed in C and C-)
 
the fact that Sticky Web already allows for Pokemon with potential to OHKO many opponents held back by their Speed makes Stealth Rock a mere little bonus
No offense, but this is ridiculous

[final gambit] is a waste of a moveslot anyways
What else would you run? And considering gambit is a very viable option, if you think shuckle is has even better moves, then that's an argument in favour of shuckle's versatility, no? Not that I think shuckle is versatile; I'm just trying to understand what you're arguing here.

For example, Ribombee can utilize Stun Spore so if Sticky Web gets removed, there's still at least one Pokemon you're able to gain momentum on
And shuckle has encore for that same purpose, or final gambit to avoid the defog altogether. I don't see how stun spore relates to momentum anyway.

most likely just lead with their burst damage and most likely 2HKO Shuckle, which means it can't even get up Stealth Rock. Encore and a filler move like Toxic or Knock Off is nice, but it'll most likely be gone before you can even utilize it.
Then use team preview to your advantage, and don't lead with shuckle? You have an entire team of offensive threats that you can deploy instead. Nobody said you have to (nor should you) always lead with your hazard user, webs included. Even if you do start with shuckle and end up with a bad matchup, you are free to switch out if you want to keep shuckle alive. If that's a play you see yourself making often, then run a teammate that can take advantage of those "burst damage" mons (which shouldn't be too hard since you don't have to spend an extra teamslot for rocks!).

Sturdy (which is kinda useless with its defenses) allows it to run Mental Herb, but there's literally no other option,
Sure there are. Mental herb is great and gets the job done well, but you have a number of techs to choose from, like red card and custap berry (edit: jk unreleased). Regardless, there's nothing wrong with mental herb, so this is a weird point.

Shuckle is undoubtedly viable in ou, so it should be ranked. Moreover, it's entirely distinct from the other setters, so it's hard to call it outclassed. None of the arguments for completely dropping it so far have been particularly specific (or compelling), which makes it feel like they're informed by theory rather than experience.

Here's a free replay where shuckle does a C- worthy thing:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-832621228
 
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-Latios-

PLOT ARMOR INTENSIFIES
Sure there are. Mental herb is great and gets the job done well, but you have a number of techs to choose from, like red card and custap berry.
Custap Berry isn't released.
Due to Shuckle's abysmal speed, Mental Herb is practically a necessity in order to compete with opposing leads that often run Taunt (Screens Koko, lead Aero, etc.) and Taunt users in general. Red Card has a niche to combat Pokemon alongside Sturdy, though, so I can see where you're coming from with that claim.
 

Finchinator

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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Shuckle shouldn’t be ranked. It is a worse Sticky Web setter than Ribombee or Araquanid, no debate. It does have other characteristics, for sure, but I feel like when playing it, it’s very obvious what it’s going to do, how to minimize its setting of the field early on, and how to position myself best to tackle what the remaining five team members have at their disposal. The other two web setters are far less passive and simply less projected out into immediate gameflow. Shuckle is a super awkward Pokemon and it really doesn’t have a place, especially given the lack of depth in the viability of the sticky web archetype as it stands.

Kingdra and Qwilfish should both drop. Rain isn’t actually worse than it was before, but there are 1-2 pretty clear-cut best variants of the archetype right now and they lack these two. Kingdra is also held back simply by the metagame being what it is — yea, it fucking nukes shit, but I still find it awkward to integrate onto teams seeing as it just creates overlap in counterplay with Ferro/Pex/Tang/Bulu being the answer to it and other things you’ll likely run on rain. There’s just no space for Kingdra unless a new build pops up and sees some tournament usage, which I doubt will happen in the immediate future. Qwilfish has been a niche mon the whole time, banking on the whole physical take with Explosion and PJab to get normal lures taken out. It’s cool, especially on a conceptual level, but again there’s simply not a ton of room for it and I find it far more experimental than practical. Drop seems fair, but not a total unrank.
 
Rises:
crawdaunt.gif

Crawdaunt from C to C+ ------ Agree
I think Crawdaunt is an amazing Pokemon rn, having literally no switch-ins and dismantling most Balance/Stall teams. Aside from Talah's Crawdaunt team, I've tried it on various other teams, the most successful one made by (I think) GiantLobster. It's rather underprepared for in the metagame and I think it has the potential for C+.


252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Sableye-Mega: 254-300 (83.8 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
{Adamant: 50% to OHKO}
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 248-292 (62.9 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 240-284 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Aggron-Mega: 146-174 (42.5 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
{Adamant: 78.5% to 2HKO}
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 178-210 (42.6 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
{Adamant: 10.9% to 2HKO}
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 192-226 (47.6 - 56%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 158-186 (39.2 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
{Adamant: 1.2% to 2HKO}
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Avalugg: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
{Adamant: Same}

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 92 Def Ferrothorn: 220-260 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 92 Def Ferrothorn: 182-216 (51.7 - 61.3%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
{Adamant: Guarnteed 2HKO}
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 274-324 (75.4 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Tangrowth: 242-286 (59.9 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Tangrowth: 200-236 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
{Adamant: Guarnteed 2HKO}
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 170-202 (67.7 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 136-161 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 196+ Def Toxapex: 166-196 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 248 HP / 196+ Def Toxapex: 136-162 (44.8 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
{Adamant: 69.1% 2HKO, 98.8% if Black Sludge knocked off}
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Rotom-Wash: 214-254 (70.6 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 250-296 (65.2 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 248 HP / 36+ Def Pelipper: 216-256 (66.8 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados-Mega: 144-170 (43.5 - 51.3%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 40 HP / 216+ Def Alomomola: 258-304 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 40 HP / 216+ Def Alomomola: 214-252 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
{Adamant: 45.3% to 2HKO}
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 136-161 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 192-228 (52.8 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 169-199 (52 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 186-219 (54.3 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



Garchomp-Mega from C- to C ---->
Played a Mega Garchomp sand team and it works amazingly. The main reason I'm agreeing with this point is because of this:
+2 252 Atk Sand Force Garchomp-Mega Stomping Tantrum vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu in Sand: 174-204 (51.6 - 60.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage, Leftovers recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery
(I mean you can run Fire Fang but they miss at critical moments)


Drops:
Clefable from A to A- ----> Agree

Clefable, once the queen of ORAS OU and SM OU, has fallen far from grace, possible fallin more than Kgyogre in Uber. This thing used to be good, but now it just lets in a bunch of threats like Mega Mawile and Heatran. It's really hard to fit a Clefable on a team, even on Stall, even though it's one of the better checks to Mega Gyarados imo, as Quag and Pyu are generally better choices. Calm Mind (Magic Guard or Unaware both work) is rather unprepared for, but it's really hard to find a time to set up. I think A- really suits how the meta sees Clefable right now and that this should probably be the lowest rank it should get in its current state.

Gyarados from B+ to B
Mega Gyarados from B to B-

Never. Gyarados is still a pretty giant threat, since it's able to beat traditional Water-type checks (Tang, Bulu, Ferro) with a boosted SSSS. You can play around it, but in the end your team will usually get pretty weakened in the process.

Mega Gyarados should also stay where it is. I've been seeing swarms of stall teams (myself included) after Finch released his stall teams (curse you) and Mega Gyarados is actually a great mon against stall w/ out Clef or Buzz. It's ability Mold Breaker let it Taunt Mega Sab and break past Unaware users makes it really good IMO. Its also able to switch into Ash-Greninja on a HO team and also check stuff like Heatran and MegaZam against offense or balance.

Kingdra from B to B-
Kingdra is often replaced on rain teams, but is still a pretty good offensive check for Ash-Greninja if Ferrothorn isn't present. I think B- is too low for a Pokemon whose switches are like Fini and Azu and pretty much nothing else.

Qwilfish from C to C-
Why is this even ranked in the first place? It has never been an use for me but a Pokemon to sack.

E: The importable keeps bugging
 
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I nommed Daunt for a rise a long time ago and my opinion on it still stands. Knock Off is just extremely spammable in this meta as the only mons who can really switch into Crawdaunt's STAB, namely Bulu and Fini, both hate losing their lefties and have a difficult time recovering enough health to switch into multiple attacks from the crab. Slower, bulkier teams in general just have an extremely hard time guarding against it and stall virtually auto-loses at team preview providing there's no Avalugg. Aqua Jet is also a really nifty tool versus offensive teams and can be a good late-game cleaner, especially with all the scarf Lando-T running around. Overall just a really underlooked mon and IMO one of the best wallbreakers in the tier that doesn't require a mega slot.

Crawdaunt rise: agree
 

Gross Sweep

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It's about finking time that this thread opened back up. I always love discussion slates, and can't wait to tackle the 7 potential changes on tap + Shuckle which is getting some discussion - albeit one sided.

Not much to be said that has not been already. Big Lobster has always been good on Trick Room, but has recently been getting action on other offensive teams with its Band set. Hits like a semi-truck running over some unsuspecting deer (aka your balance team), and has good priority in Aqua Jet to make up for fairly subpar speed. I will definitely be supporting a rise.

Mega Chomp has always loved feasting on Ferro + Clef + Zapdos kinda teams, and that hasn't really changed. someone earlier in the thread mention decimating stall in the sand, and while I don't love the idea of relying on sand turns to break stall it's obvious to see how potent of a wall breaker it is. Haven't ever used it on sand but AV Tar + M-Chomp + Firium Tran seems like an interesting core to try out, that seems solid enough to make Mega Chomper work in the meta with sand (just remember to pack some water resists). Honestly though regular Garchomp is undergoing a renaissance of sorts, and I see how M-Chomp who outside of a Z nuke is obviously a better wall breaker could ride the Chomp love wave to a raise. Obviously M-Chomp will miss the speed in matchups vs threats like Lele and Kyurem-B, but given that you don't have to mega anyways and the impressive match up vs fat I'm going to support a raise to C.

I think Clef has been teetering on the edge of a drop for a while. The little spike of CM Clef with an attack other than Moonblast made me hopeful that Clef could adapt just enough to hold onto an A ranking. However, I'm not really convinced. Even with great utility options I still never really find myself wanting to use this mon when I'm building balance, which I see as a problem for the pink blob. I'm going to agree to a drop for now as I just think trends are shifting away from poor little Clef making it less effective at checking key threats, but I will keep a watchful eye as I don't see Clef being down for long before it rises right back up like it has all gen.

Flyinium Z Gyara is still scary as hell for those poor unfortunate unprepared souls. That said I'm pretty torn on this one as I still see Gyara as a big time threat capable of stomping teams straight from preview, but individually I don't like to give "beats unprepared teams" to much ground as that just sounds like it beats bad teams. Glancing at B+ for an eye test of sorts made me think about Zard-X, a B+ mon who similarly beats a good chunk of teams at preview. A comparison of these two was enough to sell me on a drop as Zard-X while taking up a mega slot as compared to Gyara's Z is just so much better. Being a sweeper who either wrecks shop or struggles to net a kill if you're playing someone with a Zapdos just isn't consistent enough for me to support this thing at B+. Honestly I wouldn't be upset if it stayed, as I'm pretty on the fence, and would probably abstain given the option, but if I had to choose I'd say B.

Still has a good stall match up, and helps vs Ash Gren on HO, but I just don't like this mon. Whenever I use it on anything other than HO I just feel like the team ends up bad. This may come from personal shortcomings, but it's a trend I've noticed trying to build with this thing recently. I feel like it faces a lot of competition for what it wants to do, and it's currently losing that battle. Similarly to Clef I just don't find myself wanting to use this mon, which is enough for me to endorse a drop.

&
If the council wants to drop these two a peg I wont fight. I am a believer in 3 Water-type Rain teams being a max currently. Pelipper and Mega Swampert obviously take 2 of those slots. that leaves Kingdra on the outside looking in as Ash Greninja and Manaphy have been seeing love and success in that slot recently. I don't find myself really wanting to use either of these two, and am ok with a slide. I think Kingdra is still definitely the better of the two so I'm glad there is still that separation of 2 ranks. In the end I'll fully support a Qwil drop, and still be favorable of a Kingdra drop, only showing some hesitance based on the saving grace of being the best straight forward rain sweeper spamming Specs Surf in the rain vs teams with lacking Water Resists - obviously just beating teams with poor rain match ups isn't enough to dominate the meta, but it's just something Kingdra has going for it opposed to others that could forge an acceptable arguement for it staying B.

I'm sure everyone has heard the expression Don't Fuckle with Shuckle. I believe the council should take this to heart, and unrank Shuckle. On the occasion I'm building webs I look at Ribombee and Araquanid, and don't give Shuckle a second thought. I feel like there is no good reason to use Shuckle as opposed to those two, which is enough for me to drop it from the VR.

Whew, took a bit to write all of that. Hope it wasn't to boring of a read, and thanks to anyone who took the time to read it all the way through.
 
It's about finking time that this thread opened back up. I always love discussion slates, and can't wait to tackle the 7 potential changes on tap + Shuckle which is getting some discussion - albeit one sided.

Not much to be said that has not been already. Big Lobster has always been good on Trick Room, but has recently been getting action on other offensive teams with its Band set. Hits like a semi-truck running over some unsuspecting deer (aka your balance team), and has good priority in Aqua Jet to make up for fairly subpar speed. I will definitely be supporting a rise.

Mega Chomp has always loved feasting on Ferro + Clef + Zapdos kinda teams, and that hasn't really changed. someone earlier in the thread mention decimating stall in the sand, and while I don't love the idea of relying on sand turns to break stall it's obvious to see how potent of a wall breaker it is. Haven't ever used it on sand but AV Tar + M-Chomp + Firium Tran seems like an interesting core to try out, that seems solid enough to make Mega Chomper work in the meta with sand (just remember to pack some water resists). Honestly though regular Garchomp is undergoing a renaissance of sorts, and I see how M-Chomp who outside of a Z nuke is obviously a better wall breaker could ride the Chomp love wave to a raise. Obviously M-Chomp will miss the speed in matchups vs threats like Lele and Kyurem-B, but given that you don't have to mega anyways and the impressive match up vs fat I'm going to support a raise to C.

I think Clef has been teetering on the edge of a drop for a while. The little spike of CM Clef with an attack other than Moonblast made me hopeful that Clef could adapt just enough to hold onto an A ranking. However, I'm not really convinced. Even with great utility options I still never really find myself wanting to use this mon when I'm building balance, which I see as a problem for the pink blob. I'm going to agree to a drop for now as I just think trends are shifting away from poor little Clef making it less effective at checking key threats, but I will keep a watchful eye as I don't see Clef being down for long before it rises right back up like it has all gen.

Flyinium Z Gyara is still scary as hell for those poor unfortunate unprepared souls. That said I'm pretty torn on this one as I still see Gyara as a big time threat capable of stomping teams straight from preview, but individually I don't like to give "beats unprepared teams" to much ground as that just sounds like it beats bad teams. Glancing at B+ for an eye test of sorts made me think about Zard-X, a B+ mon who similarly beats a good chunk of teams at preview. A comparison of these two was enough to sell me on a drop as Zard-X while taking up a mega slot as compared to Gyara's Z is just so much better. Being a sweeper who either wrecks shop or struggles to net a kill if you're playing someone with a Zapdos just isn't consistent enough for me to support this thing at B+. Honestly I wouldn't be upset if it stayed, as I'm pretty on the fence, and would probably abstain given the option, but if I had to choose I'd say B.

Still has a good stall match up, and helps vs Ash Gren on HO, but I just don't like this mon. Whenever I use it on anything other than HO I just feel like the team ends up bad. This may come from personal shortcomings, but it's a trend I've noticed trying to build with this thing recently. I feel like it faces a lot of competition for what it wants to do, and it's currently losing that battle. Similarly to Clef I just don't find myself wanting to use this mon, which is enough for me to endorse a drop.

&
If the council wants to drop these two a peg I wont fight. I am a believer in 3 Water-type Rain teams being a max currently. Pelipper and Mega Swampert obviously take 2 of those slots. that leaves Kingdra on the outside looking in as Ash Greninja and Manaphy have been seeing love and success in that slot recently. I don't find myself really wanting to use either of these two, and am ok with a slide. I think Kingdra is still definitely the better of the two so I'm glad there is still that separation of 2 ranks. In the end I'll fully support a Qwil drop, and still be favorable of a Kingdra drop, only showing some hesitance based on the saving grace of being the best straight forward rain sweeper spamming Specs Surf in the rain vs teams with lacking Water Resists - obviously just beating teams with poor rain match ups isn't enough to dominate the meta, but it's just something Kingdra has going for it opposed to others that could forge an acceptable arguement for it staying B.

I'm sure everyone has heard the expression Don't Fuckle with Shuckle. I believe the council should take this to heart, and unrank Shuckle. On the occasion I'm building webs I look at Ribombee and Araquanid, and don't give Shuckle a second thought. I feel like there is no good reason to use Shuckle as opposed to those two, which is enough for me to drop it from the VR.

Whew, took a bit to write all of that. Hope it wasn't to boring of a read, and thanks to anyone who took the time to read it all the way through.
You're welcome <3


Anyways I agree for the most part except for the bit about Mega Garchomp. I never see this mon at all, even on sand. I can agree normal Chomps usage is going up steadily, but I would have to actually see MegChomp to support that point at least. No offense btw.
 

Finchinator

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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NU Leader
should rise as fuck. It has been used actually pretty regularly in tournaments recently -- and for good reason. While Mega Garchomp will never be a household name, it will still always be threatening as fuck. The fact that it has more practical defensive utility than ever and it feasts on common cores with the EQ + Stone Edge + Fire Fang set leads me to believing that there is a place for Mega Garchomp on standard teams. Does it require support? Not necessarily, but it certainly benefits from Sand, Pursuit, hazard control, etc. I'd say that standalone it is still viable though and with support it can be superb. I'm not even sure how to specifically say how good it is because it has only been a couple weeks of it seeing usage, dating back to the later stages of Snake with Ojama and now a couple STour appearances, but I can say with confidence that it's better than anything in C- and probably most things in C, so...yea, definitely in favor of a rise here.
 
should rise as fuck. It has been used actually pretty regularly in tournaments recently -- and for good reason. While Mega Garchomp will never be a household name, it will still always be threatening as fuck. The fact that it has more practical defensive utility than ever and it feasts on common cores with the EQ + Stone Edge + Fire Fang set leads me to believing that there is a place for Mega Garchomp on standard teams. Does it require support? Not necessarily, but it certainly benefits from Sand, Pursuit, hazard control, etc. I'd say that standalone it is still viable though and with support it can be superb. I'm not even sure how to specifically say how good it is because it has only been a couple weeks of it seeing usage, dating back to the later stages of Snake with Ojama and now a couple STour appearances, but I can say with confidence that it's better than anything in C- and probably most things in C, so...yea, definitely in favor of a rise here.
I don't really see how outside of sand it is worth the mega stone opportunity cost. Its increased defenses are nice, but uninvested are nothing special. Normal garchomp is a crucial 10 points faster, has the same coverage and can nuke something with z-crystal. I might be missing something but don't see how without sand support it can justify a team slot. Now with sand support it obviously hits very hard, but sand support constrains team building.

I'm agnostic on a M-chomp rise since I haven't seriously played with this mon since ORAS, and have faced it like twice out of my last 500 high ladder battles, but just want to hear specifically what it can do that z-crystal chomp can't and why I'm giving up 10 speed points and a mega slot for it.
 
I don't really see how outside of sand it is worth the mega stone opportunity cost. Its increased defenses are nice, but uninvested are nothing special. Normal garchomp is a crucial 10 points faster, has the same coverage and can nuke something with z-crystal. I might be missing something but don't see how without sand support it can justify a team slot. Now with sand support it obviously hits very hard, but sand support constrains team building.

I'm agnostic on a M-chomp rise since I haven't seriously played with this mon since ORAS, and have faced it like twice out of my last 500 high ladder battles, but just want to hear specifically what it can do that z-crystal chomp can't and why I'm giving up 10 speed points and a mega slot for it.
Mega Garchomp has a rather disgusting SD set with Dragon Claw + Stomping Tantrum which deals with many of the Fairy-types that try to pivot into it such as Tapu Fini and Tapu Bulu (Bulu dies to +2 base 150 ST in sand btw since it's not affected by Grassy Terrain). Even if those two swap out to run from the base 150 ST, something else will be taking the hit for it unless it's Ground-immune, and while Mega Garchomp loses out on Speed, it's still faster than Z-move Lando at the very least, and Mega Garchomp tanks Supersonic Skystrike way better than normal Chomp can. Also, you don't even have to Mega right away if you want to eliminate base 100s like the Zards and Mega Medi first while still being powerful as hell at +2. The other thing that sets this variation of offensive Garchomp apart from its regular Z move set is that it can fit Fire Fang onto its moveset a lot easier as base Garchomp's offensive niche lies with it being an SD rocker that threatens a ton of the tier's popular Defoggers right now with Rockium Z.

Plus, "sand support" isn't all that constraining as Tyranitar is used on a lot of teams that don't require its Sand Stream (I mean, traditional Sand Offense w/ Excadrill is hardly seen anymore tbh), and Mega Garchomp still benefits from Banded T-Tar's ability to Pursuit-trap the (Mega) Latis and Tapu Lele Choice-locked into a Psychic-type move/HP Fire while activating its Sand Force.
 
Don't play OU often now, so not sure if this is the right place to discuss, but I think Garchomp-M also has very practical utility as an SpA Lure.

People often neglect the fact that Garchomp-M actually has stellar 120 base SpA. Its 92 Base Speed also means that it can outspeed regular Landorus-T.

A Special or Mixed set with moves such as HP Ice / Draco Meteor / Fire Blast can act as an interesting Lure that allows Garchomp-M to break down many of its common switch-ins or act as an interesting Lead.

252 SpA Garchomp-Mega Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 300-356 (94 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Garchomp-Mega Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Skarmory: 300-354 (90 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Garchomp-Mega Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 238-280 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
 
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Hey there! Here are my thoughts on the current discussion points
Rises
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Crawdaunt from C to C+
Strongly Agree -
Crawdaunt is a monster offensively, and is really underrated, nowadays the teams are not prepared against it, and the trainers also do not (Did you know it outspeeds Rotom-Wash?) Crawdaunt is able to do with virtually every wall of the game while also having access to priority. It deserves a rise, maybe even two.
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Garchomp-Mega from C- to C
Agree -
SD + 3 Attacks breaks many popular cores nowadays, such as Heatran / Bulu / Pex, and it brings a good defensive utility to the team. Often players are surprised by Fire-type coverage, since Grass-types and Steel-types are natural responses to Garchomp.

Drops:
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Clefable from A to A-
Agree -
Setup bait for many rising threats like Volcarona, Magearna and especially Mega Mawile (And others like Landorus-Therian, Kartana ...). Clefable brings a lot of usefulness and versatility to the team, but i feel that it's becoming replaceable, and teams are adapting to cover their niche because of the problem already mentioned. Putting Clefable in your team currently opens more holes than ideal.

1542672165899.png
Gyarados from B+ to B
Somewhat Agree -
Overall it is easier to deal with it thanks to the addition of Rotom-Wash, which at the time was less used, and the players themselves are also better prepared for it. Gyarados suffers a lot of competition in what does, and losing your Z-Move slot because of Gyarados is generally not a good option, as it does not even have great synergy with the current teams, if we ignore the Hyper Offense builds. (And even then it suffers from competition as you will usually want to put your Z-Move in Volcarona, Blacephalon, Magearna or Zygarde)

1542672276216.pngMega Gyarados from B to B-
Somewhat Agree -
I think it's being used more than Gyarados in the Hyper Offense teams currently, because as i said above, you generally will not want to spend your Z-Move with Gyarados, however, your niche (mostly against Stall teams) is somewhat replaceable, especially by Blacephalon. To make matters worse, losing the power that Gyarados has thanks to Z-Fly breaking Grass-types mainly, as well as several neutral targets, and still losing access to Moxie, which is almost always necessary for the Gyarados sweep (Which then forces the Mega Gyarados to have several boosts if you want to perform a sweep) is a lot problematic. Like Gyarados, i think it's replaceable, and suffers from great competition in what does.

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Kingdra from B to B-
Agree -
Ok, Kingdra is underrated and decently strong, but when was the last time I saw a Kingdra? I can't tell. I don't think it contributes much to Rain teams, and Ash-Greninja is simply much better at doing what Kingdra does, especially by not depending on the rain as it depends, and having access to priority and Spikes.
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Qwilfish from C to C-
Agree -
I've never seen any Rain team using this, and I think their super specific niche is not a good reason to be in Rank C.
 
Don't play OU often now, so not sure if this is the right place to discuss, but I think Garchomp-M also has very practical utility as an SpA Lure.

People often neglect the fact that Garchomp-M actually has stellar 120 base SpA. Its 92 Base Speed also means that it can outspeed regular Landorus-T.

A Special or Mixed set with moves such as HP Ice / Draco Meteor / Fire Blast can act as an interesting Lure that allows Garchomp-M to break down many of its common switch-ins or act as an interesting Lead.

252 SpA Garchomp-Mega Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 300-356 (94 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Garchomp-Mega Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Skarmory: 300-354 (90 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Garchomp-Mega Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 238-280 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
Yea this is actually good to note since you can do monstrous amounts of damage to Lando-T/Bulu/Skarm on the switch (at +0, they can at least check SD Mega Chomp fairly well) without having to set up.

Rock Slide/Earthquake are the best choices for the last slot. If you run a Timid Nature with 0 Attack investment, Rock Slide still blows away Volcarona and Mega Charizard Y, but being 100% walled by Heatran as Mega Garchomp feels bad. Earthquake is probably better since it still does 70% minimum to Volcarona.

Mega Garchomp's bulk, even uninvested, is pretty noteworthy (following calcs are assuming you don't run a -Def/SpDef nature). At full, you never die to +0 Dragon Claw from Jolly Zard X, and you almost always live +0 Savage Spinout from Volcarona (and comfortably take a +1 Bug Buzz). Scarf Lando-T's Earthquake always does under 50%, and Specs Ash Greninja's Hydro Pump only has a 32% to OHKO from full. Yes, Mega Garchomp will be taking lots of chip damage most likely, but in a pinch it can take really strong hits and hit back hard.
 
Kingdra from B to B-
Qwilfish from C to C-
Hello, my opinion on both of them is I lean towards a drop on both mons, the last time I saw them on Rain Teams to provide a niche or the offensive pressure was a long while ago.
There are just much better pokèmon to use on Rain teams like Tornadus-Therian and also Ash-Greninja, the latter of these two provides much more offensive pressure due to Rain Boosted Hydro Pumps, which not alot of mons can come in consistently, while Tornadus-Therian has 100% accurate Hurricane and also the nuke in Fly-Z. Both of them give the Rain Teams more offensive pressure and also utility in Spikes and U-Turn.
I agree on drop.

Crawdaunt from C to C+
I agree on a rise, CB Craw is very strong currently and it also provides utility in Knock Off. Aqua Jet as priority is also a cool tech to pick of weakened foes. And Dark / Water is a nice Dual STAB, which not alot of mons are able to dual-resist.
 
303.png
From A+ ---- A303.png This may come as a suprise, but with how the overall meta is shifting to a more offense approach to counteract the extreme power creep this generation, and Z-moves it really doesn't support as much defensive play which is what Mega-Mawile strives for. The thing is defensive based teams can still be used the counter measures to the power creep and z moves automatically cover Mega-Mawile.

Lets go over the more power based offensive teams matchup versus Mawile-Mega. Yes mega mawile is hard to counter for offense and it gives trouble for defensive teams but most offensive teams almost always live a +2 sucker (idk how you even get +2 without dying unless its a non + serp lol) and respond rather easily. Also due to Mega-Mawiles lack of speed its going to have to rely on sucker majority of the time due to its low speed and bulk not strong enough to take on things like specs Greninja, or Tapu-Koko for examples.

Mawile-Mega's prime purpose is to break defensive teams more which I do say, it does that why else would I rate it A but with all of the hazard stack wear down and checks like Landorus-Therian, Heatran, Gliscor, Skarmory that can safely get in depending on the situation, or Mega-Mawile, set its going to be relatively difficult. Most importantly Mega-Mawile has to swords dance up on something and its at risk of taking damage first of all with its not that notable bulk outside of intimade or it could risk being burned by scald for example or thunderwave from chansey, and things like clefable also can just wish pass safely on switch to a check of some sort. If Mega-Mawile has to get in on hazards constantly trying to get a read or oppurtunity for a free swords dance, and even if you do get one without being crippled or damaged by a good amount the checks I said earlier am handle it.


The defensive meta has adapted to the extreme force of this generation and as a result Mega-Mawiles not as potent as people like to think she is. She can break and give trouble for defensive teams, but all she can possibly do is just hope that the opponent doesn't cripple it on switch not put up hazards, and hope the opponent sacrifices the wrong pokemon so a teammate can possibly break.

Now about trick room. She is an extremly good trick room abuser,her being able to invest fully in her defensive output and her outspeeding everything along with monstrous attack is a force to be reckoned with. Helping with the stall matchup is also useful and the checks I listed earlier don't apply due to trick room and its not hard to set that up vs stall, and normally truck room runs healing wish cresselia allowing for reckless play.

All in all Mega-Mawile is definitely a good option, but not as good as everyone says when it comes to her iconic role of a breaker at the very least. She flops vs offensive teams, she can be a pain for defensive teams but manageable, she very well excels on trick room based teams although trick room seems to be a lost art. I think all of this isntm't a trait of a almost s-rank pokemon, of anything A rank at best, but preferably A- for me.
 

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