Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[power]

in before finch has to

 

[Finchinator]

yea, enough on him, too -- thnx

im glad ppl have discussions on pkmn in the lower ranks, but when it starts to dominate the whole thread and even take up a majority of a page or two, it gets to be a bit much as these pkmn are not prominent enough in the tier to even be discussed at length tht much, thus exhausting all of the arguments fairly quickly and making it a continuous jerk of the same arguments being thrown back-n-forth and we def don't want tht atm!

 

[power]

B -> C+ (B- is way too generous lmao)

Speaking of lower ranks...

This mon is godawful; it rose because Aurora Veil and now Ninetales is lounging in C, it's not necessary on Aurora Veil anymore, and its terrible on non-Veil too. And then we have these two mons to top it off...

AV Bulu and Kartana are literally on every damn team and Manaphy is complete food for both of them. Manaphy even has to waste the Z-Move to OHKO kart on the switch cause Ice Beam doesn't kill, and if they don't go hard Kart then you just wasted Hydro Vortex for no reason. AV Bulu is snacking +3 Psychic with Ease and Horn Leeching it all off. Even +3 Ice Beam doesn't kill. Neither of these pokemon were good or even relevant when Manaphy originally rose but they're pretty daunting for anyone trying to run Manaphy in this meta.

It's in no way comparable to actual good mons in B like Mega Latios.

 

[RyukTheDarkrai]

I'm aware, the point is that regular Garchomp still kills Skarmory, so this isn't exactly an argument in favor of Mega Garchomp. Given the fact that you've moved the goalposts to Celesteela I'm going to assume you concede this.

You also still haven't addressed what exactly has changed to warrant Mega Garchomp moving up now.

Yah, but Celesteela is much harder to kill than Skarmory is. Killing a Pokémon with an HP stat of 65 amen a SpD stat of 70 with a special attack, even at 80 isn’t impressive. Especially since it’s a B Rank. Killing a Pokémon that has an HP stat of 97 and a SpD stat of 101 is slightly more impressive. Especially since it’s an A. And if looking at the facts is a crime, then lock me up and throw away the key.

 

[Colonel M]

I don't want to derail further, but Finch has already drew a line on Mega Garchomp. Any further responses on the topic will be deleted, and repeated offenses will be met with infractions.

Let's play civil, stay on topic, and discuss on other Pokemon that need to rise and fall. Weavile and Hawlucha were still on the slate, so discussion on those especially are welcome.

 

[Ya Boi Teej]

Blacephalon A- -> A
Keeping a threat like Blacephalon at A- is ridiculous due to the lack of checks that this mon has, and various sets it can run, and how it has ways to beat basically all of its "checks" in the tier. Common pokemon that people say check Blacephalon are Toxapex, Tyranitar, Mantine, and Support Mega Tyranitar. Now looking at this should show how huge of a threat Blace is, along with the mon has ways to easily beat these so called checks.
For example, let's look at the effect that blacephalon has had on teambuilding, people have started to use moves like baneful bunker on Toxapex, giving up an EXTREMELY useful move slot, just to avoid the 2hko on specs blace with hazards up, along with this, Mantine simply falls to specs blace with rocks up, and already has its issues in OU to start with, basically making it an unreliable check. This combined with the fact that Tyranitar, the esteemed "counter" of blace can easily lose to specs with a minimal amount chip, and can fall to the likes of hp grass/ground. Along with this, Blace can run a choice scarf extremely well, having access to explosion to let it reliably kill volcarona, along with destroying offense as a whole, while this mon doesn't pack the ability to beat its checks like specs does, its still an extremely strong set and has its merits and is much harder to revenge kill than specs.

Lets look at some calcs to prove my points:
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Hidden Power Grass vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 146-174 (40.4 - 48.1%) -- 65.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 123-145 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 123-145 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 124+ SpD Mantine: 136-162 (36.4 - 43.4%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja-Ash: 133-157 (46.6 - 55%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

Another set that I think is really underrated for Blacephalon is CM Z-Ghostium Blace, the set straight up 6-0s stall and uses usual switch-ins like chansey as setup bait, along with netting OHKOS at +1 on basically everything that doesn't resist it.

+1 252 SpA Blacephalon Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 246-289 (80.9 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Blacephalon Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 310-366 (80.5 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Now looking at these it should be obvious why Blacephalon deserves to be in a higher tier than pokemon like Keldeo, obviously Blace has its flaws, its specs set is somewhat easily revenge killed and is also weak to pursuit, but overall I feel that the mon as a whole deserves better than A-, and as has what it takes to be A rank for the reasons stated above.

CM Z-Move

Blacephalon @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind
- Taunt/Substitute

 

[NintendoVSPlaystation]

hai! i would like to rank

View attachment 93761

SNORLAX to C- RANK from UR ( ^ - ^ ) /

Snorlax is a pretty cool mon :3 its not common at all for good reason, but with an Assault Vest slapped onto it, it can be an extremely effective, situational hard switch in to a plethora of other mons in the tier

This is the current Snorlax set i've been running, i started a fresh new alt with an AV snorlax team and it has allowed me to get 1800-1900 ELO on ladder with 85 GXE pretty easily

Snorlax @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Self-Destruct

With this spread and item and moveset, snorlax is able to switch in on a multitude of dangerous special attackers and dish out decent damage in return. This set is able to hard wall:

- Magearna
- Volcarona
- Greninja
- Ash Greninja
- Mega Charizard-Y
- Blacephon
- Mega Alakazam/Alakazam
- Z-move Victini
- Manaphy
- Latios/Latias/Mega Latios/Mega Latias
- Special variants of Tapu Koko
- Heatran
- Gengar
- Marowak Alola
- pretty much every special attacker 1 v 1

With thick fat you effectively gain a fire and ice resistance and coupled with Snorlax's high HP and already high spdef with the boost from AV, you are able to put a hard stop to essentially all the special attackers in the tier. Since you have thick fat, as well as eq, snorlax is pretty much the best switch in for magma storm heatran we have available (better than ttar cuz earth power does a handful to that), z move victini, blacephon, volcarona, and mega zard-y. outside of special fire types, snorlax also checks Mega Zam, both greninjas, latis, Magearna, etc. The given EV spread is the most optimal because Snorlax's HP is already absurdly high even without investment so you get the most when you max out Snorlax's spdef instead, and then maximum attack output makes you hit surprisingly hard given Snorlax's base attack. Some calculations:

252+ Atk Snorlax Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 226-267 (79.2 - 93.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 114-135 (24.6 - 29.2%)
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Snorlax: 34-42 (7.3 - 9%)
252 SpA Magearna Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 130-154 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 162-192 (35 - 41.5%)
252+ Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 240-284 (95.6 - 113.1%)
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Sn orlax in Rain: 364-429 (78.7 - 92.8%) lol
252+ Atk Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 319-376 (93.5 - 110.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Snorlax Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 231-273 (74.2 - 87.7%)

Return is the best consistent STAB move you have available, actually you can use double edge but i def dont rly prefer the recoil on a tanky set such as this. pursuit is here so you can trap and kill latis, alakazams, and blacephons and remove them from the rest of the game. only return and pursuit are pretty much mandatory here for this set but the other two slots are definitely interchangeable. i like eq cuz snorlax is pretty much the best magma storm heatran switch in ever, and it also allows you to deal massive dmg to magearnas, magnezones, marowaks, etc. i rly like self destruct on here cuz self destruct coming from a mon that has base 110 atk WITH STAB on it hits pretty fucking hard, its essentially a Z-move except you die :/ but its great to just end something that attempts to set up on you, for example:
252+ Atk Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 333-393 (93 - 109.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 267-315 (74.3 - 87.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
however there are other options you can def try out for the last two slots, for example: fire punch, superpower, ice punch, gunk shot

av snorlax has literally the same amount of special bulk as av ttar in sand. several ppl have asked me why i dont just use av ttar > av snorlax for a pursuiter. there are several niches snorlax has over tyranitar:
1) lack of bug weakness ---> you can actually take on bug buzz volcarona
2) lack of water weakness... this is huge so you can switch in on shit like manaphy and specs greninja
3) lack of 4x weak to fighting, allowing snorlax to take on focus blasts significantly better than ttar ever could, from monsters such as mega zam, gengar, magearna
4) lack of fairy weakness, able to switch in specs koko significantly better since you dont have to worry about dazzling gleam
5) lack of grass + ground weakness, able to take on bloom doom heatran + earth powers from tran too without it doing too much
sample team: http://pokepast.es/b6db08b019c06d68

mandatory replay so my post for an UR mon doesnt get deleted: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-676684275
lax traps and kills tapu lele, kills magma storm tran, and chips greninja with pursuit. opponent got owned >:DDD

I just want to say I support this, curse Snorlax is almost unstoppable and it's only counters would be Choice Specs and Choice Band and Pokemon using roar and so on. Remember that Snorlax has Immunity so Toxic can not affect it and ruin it's gameplan. I actually used Snorlax in Showdown and it won me a lot of sets. I agree with you, and the lack of weaknesses and immunity to Ghost really makes it a threat.

Hawlucha has really exploded since USM cameout. Right now Lucha shares B+ with Peli and Pert, which was fine when Lucha was more restricted to rain, but at this point there are Lucha teams running around with every Tapu under the sun. With the expansion of Lucha's niche as a sweeper outside of rain I feel it has started to distance itself from its rain counterparts more and more. I will say that Hawlucha probably does get amped up a bit to much, as some people consider this thing jesus2.0, but it's still a solid late game finisher with a smallish list of checks. I would say I'm more comfortable with Lucha rising to A- than I am Weavile, but I don't see it going much further. Lucha is simply a one dimmensional cleaner that does its job pretty efficiently, I'm fine with A-.

http://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/hawlucha/

I also agree with this. A- is a good place for it because it actually has a good ability ( Unburden ), so it is actually viable especially with Electric seeds. Tapu Koko is a common pokemon in OU so this strategy is pretty good. Though it gets checked by priority users pretty badly as well as Tapu Koko. It is a huge threat if the defensive pokemon are gone and it uses it's electric seeds. That is when it can use swords dance and sweep your entire team.

Tyranitar will be staying A+ for the time being in all likelihood. It is a great addition to the tier thanks to Pursuit and Sand Stream support letting it take advantage of insane special bulk and attacking prowess, but it does not define the tier to the extent of Landorus-T or Toxapex. It is a pretty stable, middle-of-the-road member of the A+ sub-rank currently, in my opinion.

Thank you for replying. Did you think that I said that Tyranitar would raise to S? I do not think it would rise into S. I completely agree and respect your opinion.

Remind me if I am wrong or something else. Thank you and keep up the good work everyone.

 

[Scuba Diver]

The main problem with megachomp is that it's just a watered down lando. Sure lando has slightly worse stats all around, but it has an item, frees up your mega, and gives intimidate. This also applies to regular chomp but at a much lower level since chomp gets an item, a decent speed tier and rough skin which is an actually useful ability. Mega also doesn't hit that much harder, with an orb regular does more damage than mega and most special coverage is fairly weak, such as mega fire blast which does less than an LO fang from non-mega. Tyranitar also won't stay in on a chomp unless it's useless in a matchup, and it also is one-shot by or chomp most of the time. Overall mega chomp is fine where it is, doesn't need a rise especially not to b.

Blacephalon A- -> A
Keeping a threat like Blacephalon at A- is ridiculous due to the lack of checks that this mon has, and various sets it can run, and how it has ways to beat basically all of its "checks" in the tier. Common pokemon that people say check Blacephalon are Toxapex, Tyranitar, Mantine, and Support Mega Tyranitar. Now looking at this should show how huge of a threat Blace is, along with the mon has ways to easily beat these so called checks.
For example, let's look at the effect that blacephalon has had on teambuilding, people have started to use moves like baneful bunker on Toxapex, giving up an EXTREMELY useful move slot, just to avoid the 2hko on specs blace with hazards up, along with this, Mantine simply falls to specs blace with rocks up, and already has its issues in OU to start with, basically making it an unreliable check. This combined with the fact that Tyranitar, the esteemed "counter" of blace can easily lose to specs with a minimal amount chip, and can fall to the likes of hp grass/ground. Along with this, Blace can run a choice scarf extremely well, having access to explosion to let it reliably kill volcarona, along with destroying offense as a whole, while this mon doesn't pack the ability to beat its checks like specs does, its still an extremely strong set and has its merits and is much harder to revenge kill than specs.

Lets look at some calcs to prove my points:
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Hidden Power Grass vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 146-174 (40.4 - 48.1%) -- 65.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 123-145 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 123-145 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 124+ SpD Mantine: 136-162 (36.4 - 43.4%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja-Ash: 133-157 (46.6 - 55%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

Another set that I think is really underrated for Blacephalon is CM Z-Ghostium Blace, the set straight up 6-0s stall and uses usual switch-ins like chansey as setup bait, along with netting OHKOS at +1 on basically everything that doesn't resist it.

+1 252 SpA Blacephalon Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 246-289 (80.9 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Blacephalon Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 310-366 (80.5 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Now looking at these it should be obvious why Blacephalon deserves to be in a higher tier than pokemon like Keldeo, obviously Blace has its flaws, its specs set is somewhat easily revenge killed and is also weak to pursuit, but overall I feel that the mon as a whole deserves better than A-, and as has what it takes to be A rank for the reasons stated above.

CM Z-Move

Blacephalon @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind
- Taunt/Substitute

I think it’s important to note meta trends when making nominations to actually justify a move instead of reiterating what the mon does. I disagree with Blacephalon rising, it’s simply not on the tier of stuff in A (right now). It’s not consistent enough (imo) for the rank and requires relatively extensive support from teammates to remove Tar and hazards for it. It demolishes certain builds but also can be totally useless depending on your set, in a similar fashion to Hoopa-U which it shares a rank with. I’d also point out that Knock Off is fairly standard on Scarf Kartana now, which is a trend that really hurts Blace.

 

[Ya Boi Teej]

I think it’s important to note meta trends when making nominations to actually justify a move instead of reiterating what the mon does. I disagree with Blacephalon rising, it’s simply not on the tier of stuff in A (right now). It’s not consistent enough (imo) for the rank and requires relatively extensive support from teammates to remove Tar and hazards for it. It demolishes certain builds but also can be totally useless depending on your set, in a similar fashion to Hoopa-U which it shares a rank with. I’d also point out that Knock Off is fairly standard on Scarf Kartana now, which is a trend that really hurts Blace.

I think I explained how Blace is consistent due to its absolute lack of defensive checks and how this sets it up in a position where blace can always put in work if you're able to play properly against your "checks", and if you look at how consistent the mon is, scarf can easily get 1-2 kills vs offense consistently, paired with specs can put major holes in the opponents team even against its checks, obviously meta trends are against it right now, but I think its important to look at the effect that Blace has had to cause these changes simply by being such a threat, also I disagree with the statement that Blace requires a lot of support as a mon, overall defog/removal as a whole is decently easy pack into teams at the moment, while finding a pokemon that can put in the work that Blace can every game isn't something to be ignored because Tyranitar usage is higher than normal, which the calcs show that Blace can still beat banded Tyranitar with ease.

 

[micmacaroni]

I have to disagree with Blace's rise as well (in its current state). While it's not a bad mon at all, boasting huge wall breaking potential, it doesn't seem quite as good as the more consistent pokemon in the A tier. For example, it doesn't switch in on a lot of pokemon. It takes huge damage from even resisted hits.

Hide

252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blacephalon: 156-183 (63.1 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
60+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blacephalon in Grassy Terrain: 231-273 (93.5 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blacephalon: 99-117 (40 - 47.3%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO after trapping damage
252+ SpA Magnezone Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blacephalon: 174-205 (70.4 - 82.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blacephalon: 194-228 (78.5 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

and it's not always safe to switch into defensive mons either.

Hide

0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blacephalon: 107-126 (43.3 - 51%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blacephalon: 127-151 (51.4 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blacephalon: 128-152 (51.8 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Clefable Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blacephalon: 156-184 (63.1 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Quagsire Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blacephalon: 312-368 (126.3 - 148.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blacephalon: 218-258 (88.2 - 104.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

It requires a lot of support and offers almost no defensive utility at all outside of being a 1 time switch in to AV mage and defensive mega venu, and a spin blocker against excadrill. Defog/spin support is manditory so it doesn't take a quarter of its health when it switches, and volt turn support is imperative to get it in safely. Water shuriken from specs ash gren and and mawile/bisharp always guarentees an OHKO, while you can't even ohko pokemon such as defensive lando-t and hasty kyu-b. A rank would be too generous with this many flaws as a choiced wallbreaker.

It's not like blace automatically gets a kill once it comes in either. Against protect users such as celesteela, ferrothorn, or mega sableye, they can scout which move blace is going to use, and then switch out (or stay in) according to whichever move they used. Switch-ins such as toxapex, tyranitar, greninja, and mantine all trouble blace. Then, after the opposing pokemon takes a hit, they will be able to tell which set blace is, specs or scarf, and play accordingly. If it's a scarf blace, they can instantly go out into their tyranitar and pursuit trap it next time or play a bit more recklessly with their checks. If its specs, the opponent will be able to threaten it using faster pokemon such as kartana or tapu koko.

The other A rank wallbreakers, such as kyu-b, lele, and mega mawile have other traits such as insane coverage, priority, better natural bulk, better defensive typing and/or psychic terrain which makes them arguably harder to revenge kill or wall.

However, the ghostium Z set seems like it could be very strong, patching up several problems that the current specs/scarf blace set has, that is being forced out after getting a kill or mispredicting a switch (ie faster scarfers for the scarf set, naturally faster pokemon for the specs set, priority for both sets, or being locked into an unfavorable attacking move). I may change my opinion on blace's A rank if that sub/taunt cm ghostium set happens to be good.

 

[paoisd]

Tapu Bulu: A --> A+
I am really surprised this nom hasn't happened yet. Tapu bulu is fantastic right now, with offensive sd sets, leech seed sets, choice band, and the ever prevelant assault vest set which basically single handedly took over the position of one of the former best mons in ou (tangrowth). All of bulu's sets are amazing, but I really want to talk about the assault vest set. This has sky high usage right now and it checks some of the metagame's most dangerous threats right now like specs koko, zygarde, ash greninja, etc. This is one of the best pivots right now and even with little attack investment it still hits like a truck with grassy terrain. Bulu also is a great partner for hawlucha and bar none one of the very best mons on balance because of the ability to heal and weaken earthquakes for teammates.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Weavile: B+ ---> A-: Disagree
I don't get it. What exactly changed that warrants this mon rising again? It's certainly not terrible, but let's compare to the other A- offensive threats, being Blacephalon and Keldeo. Blacephalon has stunningly high versatility, being able to run anything from choiced to CM Z-move, while also having an amazing offensive typing. Keldeo is much the same, except it has more bulk, is faster, and has a few more coverage choices. Weavile in comparison can only run one set really (LO), and is therefore super predictable. It is worn down quite easily due to LO recoil and a Rocks weakness, and it doesn't have as great of an offensive typing as those two Pokemon. It has cool role in revenge killing offensive Lando-T, but aside from that, Ice Shard isn't as great as it's cracked up to be. B+ makes sense seeing as Naganadel has been gone for a while now, and I'd even argue that it wasn't A- material even in that metagame, since it still had to compete with Mamoswine for the role of Naga Rker.

Blacephalon: A- ---> A: On the fence
I've used this mon a lot myself, and after hearing the arguments from both sides, I really dunno what to think. It's strong as shit and super versatile when it comes to possible sets. It basically has a set to take down every playstyle, whether it be cracking stall with Sub CM or crapping on offense with Scarf. But it's bulk is sooooo bad, basically requiring a slow U-turn/Volt Switch or a sack to get it in. Any set other than Choice Scarf (it's worst set IMO) will crumble in the face of faster, more offensive teams. In the end, I'm not completely against moving it up, but if it does, then it's certainly on the lower end of A rank.

Hawlucha: B+ ---> A-: Agreed
Why hasn't this happened yet? This mon is fucking bonkers, lmao. All you need is a Tapu on your team (which isn't exactly a tall order), and what you got is a monstrous cleaner that is nigh unstoppable once your opponent's defensive checks have been weakened or KOed. I cannot begin to count how many times I've faced this thing, only for one misplay leading it to sweeping me. Please move this monster up now, it fully deserves this rank.

Edit: quick nom of my own btw

Tangrowth: B+ ---> B
Tangrowth has been totally usurped by AV Bulu, who checks all the same things that Tangrowth does, but better, doesn't need to put a ton of its EVs into SpDef since it's already pretty solid to begin with, has miles more offensive power, and mostly compensates for a lack of Regenerator via Grassy Terrain + GT-boosted Horn Leech. Tang still has niches in Regenerator and being able to take on Lando better, but it's definitely fallen out of favor. Other mons currently in B+ have their own roles that they fulfill, while Tangrowth is just a mostly worse version of another prominent Pokemon. Tangrowth is to Bulu as Garchomp is to Lando, except maybe not as sorely outclassed.

 

[Sultan]

Proposing Zard Y to stay C+

I honestly feel Charizard Y is a bit overhated in the current meta. Sure, it's nothing great, but I think it has enough to keep it in C+. Let's look at some of the things that Charizard has over Blacephalon, a Pokémon it's often compared to:

1. Better Tyranitar matchup

The big one. Blacephalon is just hopeless against Tyranitar, while Zard Y has Focus Blast to keep it at bay. And before you go, "but Specs HP Grass/Ground/whatever 2HKOes after rocks" ask yourself, is being locked into a weak Hidden Power really going to help you against the teams Tyranitar is on, especially if you're not getting a kill? That can be a huge momentum drain against BO/Balance, so Charizard's matchup is clearly superior.

2. Better Kartana matchup

Another thing that's really common nowadays. Blace is murdered by Scarf Knock Off, while Zard Y can take a +2 Knock Off and takes little from Kartana's other common moves.

+2 252 Atk Kartana Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 222-262 (74.7 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

3. Better Rain matchup

Charizard is a really good rain countermeasure, being able to pressure rain teams easily when brought in at the right time. Against a defensive Pelipper (by far the more common one, and easy to scout for besides), it forces a switch (as long as the sun's up). Who was that guy who said that Pelipper makes Charzard dead weight against rain, he clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. Anyway, nothing common on rain teams likes switching in to Charizard Y. While you can't play it mindlessly, of course, Zard Y can put in a lot of work against rain, something Blacephalon fails to do.

4. Better bulk/recovery

Another big thing, it allows Charizard to simply survive longer in matches, especially against bulkier teams.

Overall, I think people nag on Charizard too much because of its weakness to Toxapex, which, while bad, doesn't kill all viability in the Pokémon. Toxapex will be forced to Recover after a couple of Solar Beams, which gives you a switch to your breaker. Plus, less Toxapex are running Toxic in favor of Knock Off, and without Toxic, Toxapex isn't doing much to Zard Y either. And sure, many metagame trends are going against Zard Y, but a few have been in its favor, like Defog being more common, Mantine dropping in usage, and Stone Edge scarfers dying out. Sure, it's not great, but C+ accurately reflects that. It has more of a niche than things like Mega Gallade or Mega Garchomp, so it should not go down.

 

[robofiend]

I think that this nom is overdue
Blacephalon A- -> A
I've used scarf, specs - I won't harp on those because it's pretty clear how good either of those sets are. Lately have been having a great time with this set:

Blacephalon @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Flamethrower
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Shadow Ball

Ground covers Tyranitar and Heatran, especially on the latter, where it claims a kill easily after prior damage or hazards, even on a mispredict coming in. Psychic is the crown jewel of the set, as it covers several things that scarf Blace struggle with: Venusaur and Toxapex. These pokemon can safely swap in on Flamethrower or Shadow Ball and heal off the damage ad infinitum, either until they decide to attack of Blace runs away.

Calcs

252 SpA Blacephalon Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 208-248 (54 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Blacephalon Psychic vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Venusaur-Mega: 150-178 (41.3 - 49%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Blacephalon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 156-184 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Of course, after a kill, this set becomes even more deadly, dealing very solid damage to these checks and counters:

+1 Calcs

+1 252 SpA Blacephalon Psychic vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Venusaur-Mega: 226-266 (62.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Blacephalon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 232-274 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Blacephalon Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 312-368 (81 - 95.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Ghostium-Z is there for the things that Blace often needs to get the KO on like weakened Zygarde, Sableye, Landorus-T and Charizard-X. Many times players will swap these pokemon in assuming a scarf set, giving Blace an opportunity to blast through them.

Ghostium-Z Calcs

252 SpA Blacephalon Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 192-226 (63.3 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Blacephalon Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 306-360 (85.4 - 100.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Blacephalon Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 334-394 (112.4 - 132.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Blacephalon Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 340-402 (89 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Overall, Blace's place in the metagame shouldn't be underestimated. It's not an A- mon: its influence is great enough to make SpDef Heatran and AV Tyranitar popular again and it's definitely a part of why superfast scarfers like Greninja, Latios, Kartana and Keldeo remain popular.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

Proposing Zard Y to stay C+

I honestly feel Charizard Y is a bit overhated in the current meta. Sure, it's nothing great, but I think it has enough to keep it in C+. Let's look at some of the things that Charizard has over Blacephalon, a Pokémon it's often compared to:

1. Better Tyranitar matchup

The big one. Blacephalon is just hopeless against Tyranitar, while Zard Y has Focus Blast to keep it at bay. And before you go, "but Specs HP Grass/Ground/whatever 2HKOes after rocks" ask yourself, is being locked into a weak Hidden Power really going to help you against the teams Tyranitar is on, especially if you're not getting a kill? That can be a huge momentum drain against BO/Balance, so Charizard's matchup is clearly superior.
True, But almost every pokemon has a niche this small. This is like the argument in XY that “Jolteon isn’t outclassed by Raikou because it can outspeed Talonflame.” Unless if you really need a Fire breaker that can beat Tyranitar, I don’t see why I would ever use Zard Y. And even then, I would look over my build first. Blacephalon can still break past Tyranitar with choice specs HP Grass, so it’s not a foolproof answer. I guess you could argue that HP grass is punished easily, but at least Blacephalon isn’t hard stopped by one of the best Pokémon in the metagame, unlike Zard Y.
2. Better Kartana matchup

Another thing that's really common nowadays. Blace is murdered by Scarf Knock Off, while Zard Y can take a +2 Knock Off and takes little from Kartana's other common moves.

+2 252 Atk Kartana Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 222-262 (74.7 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So we are going to ignore that Fightinium Z is a viable option?
+2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 299-352 (100.6 - 118.5%) --
Darkinium is also viable, and +2 Black hole Eclispe is a clean OHKO.
Also the knock off calc is pretty shaky as stealth rock will turn it to a ohko, heck, even a little chip damage can turn it to a ohko.
3. Better Rain matchup

Charizard is a really good rain countermeasure, being able to pressure rain teams easily when brought in at the right time. Against a defensive Pelipper (by far the more common one, and easy to scout for besides), it forces a switch (as long as the sun's up). Who was that guy who said that Pelipper makes Charzard dead weight against rain, he clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. Anyway, nothing common on rain teams likes switching in to Charizard Y. While you can't play it mindlessly, of course, Zard Y can put in a lot of work against rain, something Blacephalon fails to do.
No. Zard Y is walled indefinitely by Pelipper. Fire blast does like 20% to Pelipper in rain, as does focus blast. Tapu Koko and Hawlucha easily offensivley pressure you, and you can really only come in on mega Pert. As you can’t ohko Kingdra with solar beam. Not to mention Pelliper. If anything, Charizard Y is a liability against rain, as Pelliper u turns on the switch and brinks back a rain sweeper ready to wreck havoc with their rain turns reset back to max.
4. Better bulk/recovery

Another big thing, it allows Charizard to simply survive longer in matches, especially against bulkier teams.
When is this actually relevant outside of super shaky situations like the kartana situation you mentioned.
Overall, I think people nag on Charizard too much because of its weakness to Toxapex, which, while bad, doesn't kill all viability in the Pokémon. Toxapex will be forced to Recover after a couple of Solar Beams, which gives you a switch to your breaker.
This is about as useful as a double switch, something any competent player can do without Zard Y.
Plus, less Toxapex are running Toxic in favor of Knock Off, and without Toxic, Toxapex isn't doing much to Zard Y either. And sure, many metagame trends are going against Zard Y, but a few have been in its favor, like Defog being more common, Mantine dropping in usage, and Stone Edge scarfers dying out. Sure, it's not great, but C+ accurately reflects that. It has more of a niche than things like Mega Gallade or Mega Garchomp, so it should not go down.
Honestly, it really doesn’t. The mons in C+ have small but usable niches so that I would actually consider using them. Charizard Y belongs more with the C mons that also have no place on a serious team.

Response in bold. Zard Y should go down.

 

[Ya Boi Teej]

View attachment 94177
I have to disagree with Blace's rise as well (in its current state). While it's not a bad mon at all, boasting huge wall breaking potential, it doesn't seem quite as good as the more consistent pokemon in the A tier. For example, it doesn't switch in on a lot of pokemon. It takes huge damage from even resisted hits.

Hide

252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blacephalon: 156-183 (63.1 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
60+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blacephalon in Grassy Terrain: 231-273 (93.5 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blacephalon: 99-117 (40 - 47.3%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO after trapping damage
252+ SpA Magnezone Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blacephalon: 174-205 (70.4 - 82.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blacephalon: 194-228 (78.5 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

and it's not always safe to switch into defensive mons either.

Hide

0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blacephalon: 107-126 (43.3 - 51%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blacephalon: 127-151 (51.4 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blacephalon: 128-152 (51.8 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Clefable Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blacephalon: 156-184 (63.1 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Quagsire Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blacephalon: 312-368 (126.3 - 148.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blacephalon: 218-258 (88.2 - 104.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

It requires a lot of support and offers almost no defensive utility at all outside of being a 1 time switch in to AV mage and defensive mega venu, and a spin blocker against excadrill. Defog/spin support is manditory so it doesn't take a quarter of its health when it switches, and volt turn support is imperative to get it in safely. Water shuriken from specs ash gren and and mawile/bisharp always guarentees an OHKO, while you can't even ohko pokemon such as defensive lando-t and hasty kyu-b. A rank would be too generous with this many flaws as a choiced wallbreaker.

It's not like blace automatically gets a kill once it comes in either. Against protect users such as celesteela, ferrothorn, or mega sableye, they can scout which move blace is going to use, and then switch out (or stay in) according to whichever move they used. Switch-ins such as toxapex, tyranitar, greninja, and mantine all trouble blace. Then, after the opposing pokemon takes a hit, they will be able to tell which set blace is, specs or scarf, and play accordingly. If it's a scarf blace, they can instantly go out into their tyranitar and pursuit trap it next time or play a bit more recklessly with their checks. If its specs, the opponent will be able to threaten it using faster pokemon such as kartana or tapu koko.

The other A rank wallbreakers, such as kyu-b, lele, and mega mawile have other traits such as insane coverage, priority, better natural bulk, better defensive typing and/or psychic terrain which makes them arguably harder to revenge kill or wall.

However, the ghostium Z set seems like it could be very strong, patching up several problems that the current specs/scarf blace set has, that is being forced out after getting a kill or mispredicting a switch (ie faster scarfers for the scarf set, naturally faster pokemon for the specs set, priority for both sets, or being locked into an unfavorable attacking move). I may change my opinion on blace's A rank if that sub/taunt cm ghostium set happens to be good.

To be honest i'm not sure what you are trying to say here, you posted a bunch of calcs showing how poor the mons defensive stats are which I completely agree with, but overall all you're saying is that its frail,

View attachment 94177
I have to disagree with Blace's rise as well (in its current state). While it's not a bad mon at all, boasting huge wall breaking potential, it doesn't seem quite as good as the more consistent pokemon in the A tier. For example, it doesn't switch in on a lot of pokemon. It takes huge damage from even resisted hits.

Hide

252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blacephalon: 156-183 (63.1 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
60+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blacephalon in Grassy Terrain: 231-273 (93.5 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blacephalon: 99-117 (40 - 47.3%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO after trapping damage
252+ SpA Magnezone Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blacephalon: 174-205 (70.4 - 82.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blacephalon: 194-228 (78.5 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

and it's not always safe to switch into defensive mons either.

Hide

0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blacephalon: 107-126 (43.3 - 51%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blacephalon: 127-151 (51.4 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blacephalon: 128-152 (51.8 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Clefable Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blacephalon: 156-184 (63.1 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Quagsire Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blacephalon: 312-368 (126.3 - 148.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Ferrothorn Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blacephalon: 218-258 (88.2 - 104.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

It requires a lot of support and offers almost no defensive utility at all outside of being a 1 time switch in to AV mage and defensive mega venu, and a spin blocker against excadrill. Defog/spin support is manditory so it doesn't take a quarter of its health when it switches, and volt turn support is imperative to get it in safely. Water shuriken from specs ash gren and and mawile/bisharp always guarentees an OHKO, while you can't even ohko pokemon such as defensive lando-t and hasty kyu-b. A rank would be too generous with this many flaws as a choiced wallbreaker.

It's not like blace automatically gets a kill once it comes in either. Against protect users such as celesteela, ferrothorn, or mega sableye, they can scout which move blace is going to use, and then switch out (or stay in) according to whichever move they used. Switch-ins such as toxapex, tyranitar, greninja, and mantine all trouble blace. Then, after the opposing pokemon takes a hit, they will be able to tell which set blace is, specs or scarf, and play accordingly. If it's a scarf blace, they can instantly go out into their tyranitar and pursuit trap it next time or play a bit more recklessly with their checks. If its specs, the opponent will be able to threaten it using faster pokemon such as kartana or tapu koko.

The other A rank wallbreakers, such as kyu-b, lele, and mega mawile have other traits such as insane coverage, priority, better natural bulk, better defensive typing and/or psychic terrain which makes them arguably harder to revenge kill or wall.

However, the ghostium Z set seems like it could be very strong, patching up several problems that the current specs/scarf blace set has, that is being forced out after getting a kill or mispredicting a switch (ie faster scarfers for the scarf set, naturally faster pokemon for the specs set, priority for both sets, or being locked into an unfavorable attacking move). I may change my opinion on blace's A rank if that sub/taunt cm ghostium set happens to be good.

Well I have to disagree with you to be honest, The calcs you showed don't really prove anything and are overall irrelevant calcs, also saying that you blace has horrible coverage which is true to an extent, but then going onto say that it has trouble dealing with ferrothorn and celesteela because they can scout what move you're clicking? I don't see how this effects blace at all and it just seems like a random point, I already explained how blace is only really annoyed by tyranitar, and how it has ways to beat it with MINIMAL chip, and mantine + pex fall to entry hazards and shadow ball with ease.

 

[micmacaroni]

To be honest i'm not sure what you are trying to say here

The calcs I showed were mostly against stuff that blace should force out, outside of heatran, quagsire, and sometimes kartana, meaning that unlike kyub, mega mawile, or tapu lele, it'll have a much riskier time switching in. I then discussed about the amount of support the team needs to provide: defog support and volt-turn support, and how blace itself provides next to no support for a team. Normally this isn't enough to stop a pokemon from rising, so I continued by saying its wall breaking powers still isn't enough to break past certain offensive and defensive checks, which is what other pokemon like QD volcarona, SG magearna, kartana, and zygarde do better. I then talked about A ranked wallbreakers that arguably are a bit better than blace because of their other traits.

The calcs you showed don't really prove anything and are overall irrelevant calcs, also saying that you blace has horrible coverage which is true to an extent, but then going onto say that it has trouble dealing with ferrothorn and celesteela because they can scout what move you're clicking? I don't see how this effects blace at all and it just seems like a random point, I already explained how blace is only really annoyed by tyranitar, and how it has ways to beat it with MINIMAL chip, and mantine + pex fall to entry hazards and shadow ball with ease.

The calcs I showed were supposed to illustrate that blace isn't normally coming in on threats. I never said that it had trouble dealing with ferro or celesteela, I just said that protect scouting lets you check blace easier which allows you to switch in pokemon such as mega zard x or tapu bulu who normally aren't switch-ins to blace.

I'm not denying that blace is powerful; if it's not, it wouldn't be ranked A-. In short, I'm just saying that blace is a lot scarier in theory than in practice, so it shouldn't rise.

 

[weirdo faye]

I think lopunny should be a rank along with scizor and mawile, the part abt being faster than ashgren koko i think every1 knows but idt many players (most of us are ladder players anyways are we not) have used the utility set which i think is the best. Its the pup encore dual stab set. I have some replays of just how good that set is, its not as powerful as medicham pinsir etc. but that set can win u tons of games.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-678400857
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-671855684
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-671891341
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-670910634
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-670915338

 

[ZiodyneDX]

Hmm, while I thought a while ago M-Lopunny deserves a rise. I am not so sure die to a lot of recent trends in OU kinda working agaiant it.

Many Kartana's and Blacepehon's now run scarfs meaning there the ones that can outspeed and revenge kill it, and Hawlucha and M-Pinsir seem to be on the rise. I think it's fine in A- for now

 

[Yung Dramps]

Skarmory: B ---> B+
I feel like recent metagame trends have made this Pokemon a whole lot more desirable on teams. With the rise of powerful physical attackers like Mega Lopunny, Hawlucha, Kartana, Tapu Bulu, CB Tyranitar and Mega Pinsir, Skarmory is capable of taking on all of these Pokemon very comfortably thanks to its amazing physical bulk and typing.

But wait, you may be asking, doesn't Celesteela already do all this? Well, in my opinion, Skarmory has several qualities that let it be its own thing and do well. For one thing, Skarmory gets access to Roost, meaning it is much harder to wear down over the match. Celesteela's reliance on Leech Seed for recovery can be shaky against things like Mega Venusaur and Clefable, and is just generally far less reliable than actual recovery. Since Celesteela is also locked into using Leftovers as an item and has to run Protect to make the most out of Leech Seed, this gives Skarmory another niche in being more flexible with items and moves. Skarm, for example, can run Rocky Helmet to chip down the physical attackers it's supposed to check, or Shed Shell to avoid bad run-ins with Magnezone. Another niche Skarmory has over Celesteela is Sturdy + Whirlwind. Unlike Celesteela, this gives it the ability to check cleaners like Hawlucha, DDance Tyranitar, SD Kartana and offensive Lando better, as it can guaranteed take a hit and Whirlwind the stat boosted threat away. Finally, if you can fit it, Skarmory gets Spikes and the ubiquitous Stealth Rock, making it a solid hazard setter.

tl;dr Due to metagame trends in its favor and unexplored options that differentiate it heavily from Celesteela, Skarmory deserves to be moved up.

 

[ZiodyneDX]

Skarmory: B ---> B+
I feel like recent metagame trends have made this Pokemon a whole lot more desirable on teams. With the rise of powerful physical attackers like Mega Lopunny, Hawlucha, Kartana, Tapu Bulu, CB Tyranitar and Mega Pinsir, Skarmory is capable of taking on all of these Pokemon very comfortably thanks to its amazing physical bulk and typing.

But wait, you may be asking, doesn't Celesteela already do all this? Well, in my opinion, Skarmory has several qualities that let it be its own thing and do well. For one thing, Skarmory gets access to Roost, meaning it is much harder to wear down over the match. Celesteela's reliance on Leech Seed for recovery can be shaky against things like Mega Venusaur and Clefable, and is just generally far less reliable than actual recovery. Since Celesteela is also locked into using Leftovers as an item and has to run Protect to make the most out of Leech Seed, this gives Skarmory another niche in being more flexible with items and moves. Skarm, for example, can run Rocky Helmet to chip down the physical attackers it's supposed to check, or Shed Shell to avoid bad run-ins with Magnezone. Another niche Skarmory has over Celesteela is Sturdy + Whirlwind. Unlike Celesteela, this gives it the ability to check cleaners like Hawlucha, DDance Tyranitar, SD Kartana and offensive Lando better, as it can guaranteed take a hit and Whirlwind the stat boosted threat away. Finally, if you can fit it, Skarmory gets Spikes and the ubiquitous Stealth Rock, making it a solid hazard setter.

tl;dr Due to metagame trends in its favor and unexplored options that differentiate it heavily from Celesteela, Skarmory deserves to be moved up.

I am a bit on the fence about a Skarmory rise, as there is alsolots of trends in the meta that can work agaiant Skarm . Koko , Heatran and Magnezone are as popular as ever, and unlike Celstella it cannot threaten them by reading a switch-in with EQ or Flamethrower . Offensive Zygarde can ground and wear down Skarm with TA. Encore is now a popular move on M-Lopunny, meaning it can Lock Skarm in a utility move while it sets up with PuP

 

[NintendoVSPlaystation]

I think lopunny should be a rank along with scizor and mawile, the part abt being faster than ashgren koko i think every1 knows but idt many players (most of us are ladder players anyways are we not) have used the utility set which i think is the best. Its the pup encore dual stab set. I have some replays of just how good that set is, its not as powerful as medicham pinsir etc. but that set can win u tons of games.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-678400857
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-671855684
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-671891341
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-670910634
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-670915338

I agree with this. Not to mention it was the best mega in the ORAS OU. That stab fake out is actually very effective for rubbing out damage and as you said before; outspeeding Tapu Koko, Weavile ( though Weavile has priority ), Hawluncha ( Unburden outspeeds Mega Lopunny ) and Latios really helps it. A rank is agreeable in my eyes; and I have used it in battle. Return and High Jump Kick are actually solid moves even though High Jump Kick is a risky move.

These are some examples of High Jump Kick.
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Ferrothorn: 318-374 (90.3 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 91 Def Heatran: 386-456 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 440-518 (96.9 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO


Return can be pretty weak when fighting most OU pokemon, but Return can be a problem if Lopunny gets an attack boost. Before someone says that this applies to most physical attacks in OU; which is true. But it's high speed stat and decently high attack is important.
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 366-432 (97.8 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 390-460 (107.1 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 309-364 (102.6 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Discharged Xurkitree]

Skarmory: B ---> B+
I feel like recent metagame trends have made this Pokemon a whole lot more desirable on teams. With the rise of powerful physical attackers like Mega Lopunny, Hawlucha, Kartana, Tapu Bulu, CB Tyranitar and Mega Pinsir, Skarmory is capable of taking on all of these Pokemon very comfortably thanks to its amazing physical bulk and typing.

But wait, you may be asking, doesn't Celesteela already do all this? Well, in my opinion, Skarmory has several qualities that let it be its own thing and do well. For one thing, Skarmory gets access to Roost, meaning it is much harder to wear down over the match. Celesteela's reliance on Leech Seed for recovery can be shaky against things like Mega Venusaur and Clefable, and is just generally far less reliable than actual recovery. Since Celesteela is also locked into using Leftovers as an item and has to run Protect to make the most out of Leech Seed, this gives Skarmory another niche in being more flexible with items and moves. Skarm, for example, can run Rocky Helmet to chip down the physical attackers it's supposed to check, or Shed Shell to avoid bad run-ins with Magnezone. Another niche Skarmory has over Celesteela is Sturdy + Whirlwind. Unlike Celesteela, this gives it the ability to check cleaners like Hawlucha, DDance Tyranitar, SD Kartana and offensive Lando better, as it can guaranteed take a hit and Whirlwind the stat boosted threat away. Finally, if you can fit it, Skarmory gets Spikes and the ubiquitous Stealth Rock, making it a solid hazard setter.

tl;dr Due to metagame trends in its favor and unexplored options that differentiate it heavily from Celesteela, Skarmory deserves to be moved up.

Like ZiodyneDX said, Koko, Heatran, and Magnezone are more prevalent than ever. Many mons that u mention that are weak to Skarmory often run teammates like these, such as Scizor and Koko, or M Pinsir and Magnezone. I think Skarmory is good where it is.

 

[Jordy]

Skarmory: B --> B-

In contrary to Yung Dramps his nomination I'd like to nom Skarmory down, this Pokemon is very hard to fit on teams and really it hasn't benefitted from any metatrends and if any it's been very small for Skarmory. First of all, the fact that Skarmory is limited to Shed Shell as its item to escape Magnezone in itself is very bad for Skarmory since it really appreciates the passive recovery Leftovers offers. While yes Skarmory has access to Roost to keep it healthy and a massive phys def stat, please do not forget its terrible spdef and hp stat which means that it will drop to most Special Attacks relatively fast. Skarmory also heavily struggles with even a lot of physical attackers like Hawlucha (lol it does not beat Hawlucha no.), SD Kartana (this breaks skarm's sturdy with Leaf Blade and after that it gets KOd by either Darkinium Z or Fightinium Z at +2), Offensive Landorus-T (how the fuck would it beat this lol.), even SD Mega Scizor can heavily cripple it thanks to its access to Knock Off. Furthermore Skarmory also fails to check any type of special attacker as many of them like Ash Greninja, Heatran, Tapu Koko, Offensive Magearna, and Volcarona can easily beat it and these are just some of the top Pokemon atm. Did i mention it's a defensive Steel-type that fails to check Tapu Lele btw?

Mega Latios: B --> B-

Mega Latios was a perfect Tyranitar and Magearna lure at first however now it's known to carry Earthquake in its arsenal, thus making it easier for opponents to pivot around it since they know the possibility of getting lured and hit by an Earthquake, however I don't think its lure value as a whole is gone since HP Fire instead of Roost/Draco can be very useful to trick opponents into thinking they have succesfully played around ur lure, for example, they have Tyranitar and expect u to use Earthquake on Tyranitar, most of the time they will then switch into Mega Scizor or Ferrothorn (if they have those) to take the EQ and effeciently deal with Mega Latios, however when they come in on Earthquake they will be in range of HP Fire and bop u lured other mons.

 

[Toshiro46]

I agree with this. Not to mention it was the best mega in the ORAS OU. That stab fake out is actually very effective for rubbing out damage and as you said before; outspeeding Tapu Koko, Weavile ( though Weavile has priority ), Hawluncha ( Unburden outspeeds Mega Lopunny ) and Latios really helps it. A rank is agreeable in my eyes; and I have used it in battle. Return and High Jump Kick are actually solid moves even though High Jump Kick is a risky move.

These are some examples of High Jump Kick.
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Ferrothorn: 318-374 (90.3 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 91 Def Heatran: 386-456 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 440-518 (96.9 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO


Return can be pretty weak when fighting most OU pokemon, but Return can be a problem if Lopunny gets an attack boost. Before someone says that this applies to most physical attacks in OU; which is true. But it's high speed stat and decently high attack is important.
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 366-432 (97.8 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 390-460 (107.1 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 309-364 (102.6 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I have no opinion on a Lopunny rise as I haven’t played all that much recently, but I don’t think this was a good nom. You just named some of its qualities and listed some calcs. If Mega Lop was unranked or relatively unexplored, the qualities you listed would be good for pointing out what it can do. But it is ranked, at A-, mostly for the reasons you gave. When nomming for a rise, you generally want to list changing trends in the metagame that benefit Lopunny and make it more viable, such as a check like Toxapex falling off in usage (an example, it actually isn’t) or a mon that Lopunny takes advantage of rising in usage. Or you could list off a new, unexplored set that you think makes it that much better. Sorta how people are arguing for a Bulu rise due to its AV set bursting into the scene in the past month or so. But just listing off the qualities that got it ranked in the first place doesn’t help your case. Neither does mentioning that it was the best Mega in ORAS OU, as that’s a completely different metagame.

Hope this helps you out for future posts