Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[Finchinator]

Rises

• Alakazam-Mega from A- to A+ - Likely a bit controversial that it is going all the way to A+, but it clearly stole a lot of the spotlight from Mega Latios as the Heatran checking mega evolution Psychic type that gives balance a hard time. With ridiculous Speed and Special Attack combined with a helpful ability upon evolution, Trace, and solid enough coverage, Mega Alakazam is peaking right now and it is probably the best mega in the tier, at least in terms of tournament play where balance is much more common than the ladder.
• Mawile-Mega from A- to A - Mega Mawile has always been potent, but with the increase in stall usage and also more archetypes, mainly on the offensive end of the spectrum, integrating it, this potent mega evolution sees a rise in overall viability.
• Gyarados from B+ to A- - Another product of the ladder, specifically OLT, and it also tends to get at least 1 kill a game if played decently enough, so no surprise that it goes up a notch.
• Gyarados-Mega from B to B+ - Third consecutive OLT related rise, this one being Mega Gyarados, who does well against stall and fits onto various HO builds, many of which previously did not see much use.
• Blacephalon from C+ to B- - Clearly seeing more use than ever now with ladder trends. Potent Pokemon who has deadweight potential, but can be a consistent threat despite clear lack of defensive presence. More usage and an uptick in effectiveness vs metagame trends in conjunction with the Specs and Scarf sets seeing some usage are the main reasons for the rise itself.
• Serperior from C+ to B - Double rise here because not only has it been seeing ridiculous usage in OLT, but it also picked up a bit during WCOP and is one of the best Pokemon in the tier to use against stall -- Serperior is finally seeing some love this generation.
• Pyukumuku from C- to B- - Approaching staple territory for stall and while there are other Unaware Pokemon, Pyukumuku is generally regarded as the best of the bunch.
• Ribombee from UR to C - A Stick Web setter that has seen respectable amounts of usage on the ladder during OLT.
• Zerorora from UR to C - New Pokemon and fairly mediocre overall, but still viable -- we settled on C for the time being.
• Buzzwole from UR to C- - Viable on stall, including one that saw use in WCOP. Would not use outside of this, however, which most posts for it to be ranked tried to say. That is not why we are ranking it and I hope that much is clear.
• Moltres from UR to C- - Another stall Pokemon that has surged a bit recently after being used in WCOP, with this one being in the final tiebreak game. Numerous ladder teams have used it since then with quite a bit of success.

Drops

• Gastrodon from B+ to B - Saw a big jump in viability during SPL, but has died down since May pretty much. Still a viable option for role compression on some balanced teams, but generally regarded as passive and it opens the door for far too many threatening Pokemon we see in the current metagame to justify keeping it where it is, especially when it has seen a steady decline in overall use.
• Keldeo from B to B- - Nobody is really using Keldeo, so we shall continue to drop it over time as it lacks a definitive place in the tier.
• Latios from B to B- - Same thing as Keldeo, but especially the case ever since Mega Latios surged up (and now Mega Alakazam).
• Manectric-Mega from C+ to C - Another Pokemon who simply is not used currently.
• Stakataka from C+ to C- - Stakataka saw big hype for Trick Room viability initially, but it has since then been regarded as pretty mediocre and seldom used.
• Shuckle from C+ to C- - Generally regarded as an inferior Sticky Web setter to Ribombee, who just got ranked, and Araquanid, who is already ranked higher. Steady decline from it.
• Nihilego from C- to UR - No real niche or uses at this point in time.

Hide

The full voting slate was:
Clefable A+ to S
Zygarde A+ to S
Latios-Mega A to A+
Alakazam-Mega A- to A or A+
Celesteela A to A+
Tapu Bulu A to A+
Latias-Mega A- to A
Mawile-Mega A- to A
Gyarados B+ to A-
Gyarados-Mega B to B+
Blacephalon C+ to B-
Serperior C+ to B- (we later agreed upon B, ftr)
Pyukumuku C- to C+/B-
Zerorora UR to C/C+
Ribombee UR to C-/C
Buzzwole UR to C-
Salamence UR to C-
Moltres UR to C-

Gastrodon B+ to B
Keldeo B to B-
Latios B to B-
Kingdra B to B-
Manectric-Mega C+ to C
Stakataka C+ to C/C-
Shuckle C+ to C/C-
Nihilego C- to UR

Some discussion points:

• Clefable from A+ to S
• Lopunny-Mega to B
• Suicune to C+
• Mantine to C+
• Slowbro-Mega to C+/B-
• Tyranitar to A-
• Chansey to A
• Quagsire to C+
• Hippowdon to B
• Avalugg to C
• Terrakion to C+/C
• Crawdaunt to C+

 

[volcanionisgood]

alomomola: B -> B+
This mon is exemplary on stall plain and simple. It acts as a wish passer that is able to bring a mon from under 25 to full. It easily walls taunt gyarados both mega and non mega and burns it back as well as walling charizard x. The set that is the best on stall with alomomola is 224hp/ 252 def/ 28 spedef. It gives alomomola the highest leftovers recovery although that doesnt matter too much as it is almost always the knock off switchin but it doesnt really need the extra 24 hp evs but it sure as hell needs more than 40hp on the smogon set. The reason for this and its biggest niche over tangrowth is that with this set it is a banded crawdaunt counter, which ladder has recently started picking up as a stallbreaker, because while tangrowth can take 2 hits it doesnt recover enough from regen but alomomola has recovery in addition to regen.

calcs v crawdaunt

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 206-244 (39 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 248-294 (47 - 55.7%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO

while alomomola may not be a grass type it still might as well be called a ground resist because when it's paired with skarm and unaware ground types dont stand a chance including the ever popular band zygarde

calcs vs band zygarde

252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 168-198 (31.8 - 37.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery pathetic damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 223-264 (42.3 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery still a snack

yet another reason to use the fish is that it walls z icium kyub which usually always claims a kill vs stall

calc v z kyub

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 222-262 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 165-195 (31.3 - 37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

I dont usually save games of me winning with stall and its on my olt stall team (which I think got the highest any stall team got this cycle at 1977) but heres a replay of me winning the game by burning mawile after dodging play rough but it would have lived anyway https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-782295639. this is the only game I have a replay of vs a banded crawdaunt (I dont save wins with stall usually but the fish has certainly helped me out vs crawdaunt many times) but u can clearly see I would have walled him if he did not hax me https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-782826377

 

[mushamu]

i have some time on my hands so ill address some of the discussion points

Clefable is a 'mon that i feel struggles a bit in this metagame despite being a great mon on balance due to the prevalance of Heatran, which are running z flash cannon more often to hit Mega Alakazam and Mega Latios on the switch in. its still really good, but its not S rank worthy in my eyes so it could stay at A+ for now.

Lopunny should drop, it struggles with this bulky metagame too much to keep its place in B+ along with mons like Weavile and Mega Ttar rn. Clefable and bulky scarf Lando T both hurt mega lopunny a lot and honestly there are better mega evolutions to use over Lop atm. drop to B

Suicune could probably land in B- over C+ as its struggling a bit with Toxapex but its better than the C+ mons like Azu and Thundy (Char Y should rise btw) and finds itself alongside pokemon like Blace and Chomp, niche Pokemon that can still work in the appropriate setting. i could also see this being C+ but im leaning toward b- right now.

I absolutely fucking love Hippowdon right now, its a great mixed wall with moves like Whirlwind and Stealth Rock that help phaze and chip at the opposing team slowly. Dealing with stuff like Koko and phasing Zygarde with this bulk is always nice, I want this in B.

I haven't seen Terrakion much in this metagame nor does it seem consistent so a drop to C+ would probably be necessary.

Some other nominations I agree with:

Celesteela reclaims its stance as a mixed wall on Balance & even Stall in response to recent metagame trends. Sure Heatran being really good sucks for it, although Pokemon like Mega Latios and Mega Alakazam being in A and A+ respectively gives a lot more reason to use Celesteela as it checks these two Pokemon fairly well. It's a consistent pick right now and the metagame has shifted in its favor a bit ever since it's been nominated to A- which is why I agree with it going up to A+.

i think thats ok for now, also agree with ttar dropping to a-, havent seen the rest of the pokemon in action so i dont really have strong opinions on the rest. the update was interesting this time with zam going to a+ and even blacephalon rising and the discussion points are spicy :o

 

[Vengeance417]

I feel like Zeraora should be higher than Mega Manectric, as it's basically a better version of the Pokemon other than not having Intimidate.

I agree with this. Zeraora has much more going for it than Mega Manectric in a multitude of ways. Zeraora has access to the same coverage Mega Manectric has thanks to Fire Punch access, but also has access to Z-moves, Knock Off (which really helps against Scarf Lando, Mega Alakazam [traces Volt Absorb] and Tangrowth on the switch), mixed offenses, better speed, and Close Combat for Tyranitar. I've also ran some neat techs like Sash + Endeavor + Quick Attack to either wall break or to stop a sweep, and a mixed Work Up set.

To top it all off, it doesn't take a mega slot which has started to gain more popularity again thanks to Mega Alakazam and the Mega Latis being so good right now. If anything, either Zeraora rises or Mega Manectric falls imo.

 

[Guard]

Clefable A+ >>> S

Somewhat disappointing Queen Clef again didn’t make the cut for S; I’m convinced it should be ranked along Tran and Lando. Sure, Heatran may limit it, but we shouldn’t forget that it only accounts for the Z-variants.

Utility Tran does indeed trap it and then shut it down with Taunt, but it’s attacks are not enough for a 2OHKO on Clefable, which means Clefable can just spam Moonblast and fish for SpA drops (which happens a lot, trust me). This puts the Heatran user in a rather awkward situation where it really does want to remove Clefable, but has to do so while depleting Magma Storm’s PP and hope it doesn’t miss too often, since Earth Power does this after a SpA drop:

-1 4 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 59-70 (14.9 - 17.7%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hence, Utility Tran is a very shaky Clefable check, and this isn’t even accounting the possibility of Knock Off, which severely hampers it.

Against Z-move variants Clefable has a hard time, but she still can Thunder Wave them on the switch, a move that isn’t too hard to fit if you don’t need Wish or Stealth Rock on it. Once paralyzed, Z-Crystal-Tran is a lot easier to play around since, without Leftovers and HP investment, they’re a lot less bulkier that Utility variants. Moreover, Steelium Z variants have to forgo Toxic, which makes them even easier to check/counter with Water types (or Toxapex if Flash Cannon is run over Earth Power) which makes them a lot more manageable and less threatening on the whole picture.

So to sum it up, Clefable still can do a fair bit of work against Heatran and this isn’t even taking in account that Clefable has 5 more teammates to help it out with Tran or can just simply switch from Heatran before it uses Magma Storm. Therefore, I do not think the dominance of Heatran is a valid argument for Clefable to stay in A+.

Why Clefable should be ranked S is because in one set she manages to:

• Define Balance, as she is a large part of the reason why Balance is the best archetype right now
• Be (one of) the best Stealth Rocker(s), being able to take on Mega Sableye, thus freeing up a very valuable move slot for Lando, Tran and Ferro
• Check the most threatening of the threatening mons (e.g. Zygarde, Mega Lopunny, Lando, Mega Medicham etc.)
• Alleviate the biggest issue of the two meta-defining and other staple mons: recovery
• Check/Counter Stall on its own

If this isn’t splashable, role-compressing and influencing enough for you, I don’t know what to say.

Clefable has a humongous amount of influence on two of the three available archetypes and that should be more than enough to rank it in the S-rank.

 

[Scuba Diver]

I disagree with Clefable to S. While it’s quite versatile and the face of balance, a quick scroll down S and A rankings show a variety of threats that can simply plow through it. To relate this to the recent VR update, Mega Zam, Serperior, Blacephalon, Pyukumuku (watch WCOP final) and Gyarados all got raises and all of them suck for Clef to deal with. I think people seem to forget that while Clef can run some cool techs, in practice I find Clefable fairly predictable because specific techs/lures generally decrease overall effectiveness.

Zygarde has been running Steelium for Bulu and can also use it for Clefable. Clefable is really good but it doesn’t run the meta like Heatran does.

 

[volx757]

Clefable A+ >>> S

Somewhat disappointing Queen Clef again didn’t make the cut for S; I’m convinced it should be ranked along Tran and Lando. Sure, Heatran may limit it, but we shouldn’t forget that it only accounts for the Z-variants.

Utility Tran does indeed trap it and then shut it down with Taunt, but it’s attacks are not enough for a 2OHKO on Clefable, which means Clefable can just spam Moonblast and fish for SpA drops (which happens a lot, trust me). This puts the Heatran user in a rather awkward situation where it really does want to remove Clefable, but has to do so while depleting Magma Storm’s PP and hope it doesn’t miss too often, since Earth Power does this after a SpA drop:

-1 4 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 59-70 (14.9 - 17.7%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

Just wanna note that earth power gets spdef drops as often as moonblast gets SpAtk drops. something to consider when making this argument.

I guess heatran's aren't running roar really (let alone rocks roar), but that tran variant loves to come in on clef and abuse it. Obviously z-variants break clef with ease, but what I wanna say is that in this matchup (utility tran v clef), Tran is in control the whole time. You're perfectly capable of trapping clef only to switch to something else while she cannot.

Clefable is undoubtedly a cornerstone mon similar to tran and lando, but I don't believe the mon itself demands so much specific prep, as practically any z-move user can break it, and steel is a far more viable offensive type than it ever has been, meaning steel coverage is more common.

I agree that clefable is incredibly splashable and provides excellent compression, but it's just not as immediately threatening as lando or heatran, and I agree with poster above me that while clef is technically very customizable, it has it's specific roles in this meta (defensive rocker and wish passer) that make up the bulk of its sets.

I also don't understand how Clefable can counter stall on it's own. or check it.

 

[wisdom dog]

Just wanna note that earth power gets spdef drops as often as moonblast gets SpAtk drops. something to consider when making this argument.

I guess heatran's aren't running roar really (let alone rocks roar), but that tran variant loves to come in on clef and abuse it. Obviously z-variants break clef with ease, but what I wanna say is that in this matchup (utility tran v clef), Tran is in control the whole time. You're perfectly capable of trapping clef only to switch to something else while she cannot.

Clefable is undoubtedly a cornerstone mon similar to tran and lando, but I don't believe the mon itself demands so much specific prep, as practically any z-move user can break it, and steel is a far more viable offensive type than it ever has been, meaning steel coverage is more common.

I agree that clefable is incredibly splashable and provides excellent compression, but it's just not as immediately threatening as lando or heatran, and I agree with poster above me that while clef is technically very customizable, it has it's specific roles in this meta (defensive rocker and wish passer) that make up the bulk of its sets.

I also don't understand how Clefable can counter stall on it's own. or check it.

Moonblast actually has a 30% chance, While earth power is only 10%. And clefables considered a check or at least nuisance for stall largely due to its ability to consistently get rocks up because it scares out sableye

 

[Vert]

I came back to this game for fun cause I had free time this summer, but it seems like I've lost my OLT and laddering touch. Whatever I guess....since I did manage to rack 2117 elo cycle 1 I guess I can confirm to say that everything I will say is not what people call an outdated opinion. Wanted to post here before I leave Smogon again since this was always my favorite thread. I think I'll try to get my game on though and attempt cycle 4 if I have time. The thing about USM at the moment is it's all matchup based. Anyone can be good at this tier.

Zygarde is easily S rank. It literally picks its counters outside of Unaware Clefable which is stupid as fuck. I thought I was flexing with my SD Tapu Bulu earlier today and then your opponent ends up being Substitute / Coil / DD / Arrows and you lose. Same thing goes with Toxic and Iron Tail. The Glare set is even worse since you can't bring Choice Scarf Landorus-T and it will hax your Clefable. That's assuming Glare on CB. Glare is a pain in the ass on Substitute. That's the only thing that is new from experience. The regular sets are already dumb as shit and I don't need to reiterate points that have been made by others. The fact that people are using....actually wait let me reword that. Not using, but SPAMMING Zygarde and STILL WINNING with Zygarde despite the metagame is supposedly adapting to it is bullshit. Just rise this already.

Tapu Bulu should be A+, borderline S. This Pokemon is top tier headassery. It bring so many roles to a team and can fuck up answers with SD Z-Move. Or you can just use that gay ass SpD SD set cause that set always performs. Once again I'm not posting to reiterate what users already say. Just know it's one of those Pokemon that performs better in practice than on paper. It honestly comes in and makes you say "fuck." If not that, it's leaving a huge scare for the time it's in unless you have the right counter to the right set and even then man...

Chansey is being slapped on all type of teams and it's gay to play against. It glues stall together and is even being used on balances to enormous success right now. You honestly see this on random offense teams too. Like did the builder think this is a Landorus-T or something? Well it might be because Chansey + anything not HO almost always ends up working. Rise this to A rank.

Outside of that, I'm really loving the rankings from B+ rank to S rank when I look at them objectively. Going to touch on the lower rankings now. Blacephalon is a huge threat. SubCM is the craze but idk Specs and Scarf are still good af. Scarf is what I used to reach that ELO cycle 1. It's a very consistent threat vs offense and cheese playstyles such as Veil and Webs. Rise it to B rank. Tyranitar is the only argument people are making. Sure it's a big deal, but this Pokemon is underappreciated and Finchinator needs to put his bias aside. I'd like to see Serperior in B+. Very annoying and consistent threat since Glare just neutralizes Tornadus-T and other threats. SubSeed annoys the fuck out of stall since people are using Pyukumuku now lol. Heatran don't run Leftovers a lot of the time so it's funny when this Pokemon just beats it. Huge threat that has more consistency than a lot of B rank Pokemon. Mega Gyarados is an OLT related rise which is cute but I thought it was fine in B rank. It can be hit or miss a lot of the times and even then it's vulnerable to Toxapex Scald bullshit which is sooooo annoying. Cool for full on stall though, but even those are running PhysDef Tangrowth sometimes. Regular Gyarados Z-Bounce is so much more capable of sweeping other archetypes not stall and it usually does end up sweeping. Kingdra should drop a subrank. No explanation needed. I think Mega Charizard Y should be B- instead of C+. If it's not deadweight, it's usually just outright winning lol. Crawdaunt should be C+/B- in this balance heavy metagame and it even has use versus offense with its strong Aqua Jet. I do think Jirachi is a very underrated pivot. Wish is great. I'd rise it to B. Keldeo is ass and should drop more. C and C- could probably be merged lol but I'm not here to talk about that.

Peace.

 

[Guard]

Just wanna note that earth power gets spdef drops as often as moonblast gets SpAtk drops. something to consider when making this argument.

I guess heatran's aren't running roar really (let alone rocks roar), but that tran variant loves to come in on clef and abuse it. Obviously z-variants break clef with ease, but what I wanna say is that in this matchup (utility tran v clef), Tran is in control the whole time. You're perfectly capable of trapping clef only to switch to something else while she cannot.

Clefable is undoubtedly a cornerstone mon similar to tran and lando, but I don't believe the mon itself demands so much specific prep, as practically any z-move user can break it, and steel is a far more viable offensive type than it ever has been, meaning steel coverage is more common.

I agree that clefable is incredibly splashable and provides excellent compression, but it's just not as immediately threatening as lando or heatran, and I agree with poster above me that while clef is technically very customizable, it has it's specific roles in this meta (defensive rocker and wish passer) that make up the bulk of its sets.

I also don't understand how Clefable can counter stall on it's own. or check it.

Moonblast's odds to drop SpA is 3x the odds of Earth Power dropping SpD, or in other words, the same odds of Focus Miss missing. Which is huge...

For Z-variants of Tran, the Clef player can easily scout which set Tran is running, because all he needs to do is U-turn (or frankly do damage) on it and see if it’s running Leftovers. The absence of Leftovers almost always suggests that Tran is running a Z-crystal. Z-crystals from anything powerful may break Clefable open, but there’s only one Z-slot per team, which more often than not, is predictable, scoutable and manageable if running appropriate teammates.

Having said that, Utility Tran, to do anything at all to Clef, first of all has to make sure Clef doesn't switch to something that can easily take care of Heatran (Mega Latios, Mega Zam, Gliscor, Lando etc.) and there's nothing stopping it from doing that...then it has to hit with Magma Storm and if that hits it has to either stay in and risk depleting Magma Storms PP/spam Earth Power while Clef gets to spam Moonblast and more than once lower its SpA. It'll only stay in control if Magma Storm doesn’t miss, if Moonblast doesn’t lower its SpA and if it’s Leftovers are intact (seems very shaky to me). I’ve had situations where Clef was able to lower its SpA to such low stages that as a result Tran (and not Clef) was forced to switch out.

Also, you mentioned Tran could just trap it and then switch out to something else, while Clef would be forced to stay in. I don’t regard that as a very big problem, because Clef can still lay out rocks, heal up the Magma Storm damage , set up a Wish or, if Taunted, throw out a Moonblast which doesn’t hit that softly. The very next turn (after Tran has switched), it’ll be able to switch too with at least 60% of its HP and later come back to heal up (and it has plenty of opportunities to do that).

At first glance, it may seem that Clef is helpless against Stall, however Magic Guard prevents any passive damage to it, including, but not limited to, entry hazards, status damage and Leech Seed, forcing the foe to directly damage it and the only things that are going to hurt is Steela’s Heavy Slam, Ferro’s Gyro Ball and Amoonguss’ or Venu’s Sludge Bomb. Whereas the only thing Clef needs to do to break Stall is switch in and out with preferably another Magic Guard or Regen mon, which, obviously, depletes said Archetype’s PP. Also, it’s the only mon that’s able to lay rocks consistently against Mega Sab teams, which hurts stall even more. Correct me if I’m wrong, but if a mon is able to almost 100% reliably take on a whole archetype, while providing that many more things (including the fact that it defines another Archetype), I regard that mon as meta-defining and not as a staple.

Btw, have I mentioned Clef is a big reason why people can even afford to run anything else than Leftovers on Tran? That it’s a big reason why Bulky Scarf Lando is so popular? It has stirred up the metagame quite a bit and has been defining Balance for a long time now. This much compressibility paired with this much customizability and ability to influence the metagame may not be offensively threatening moveset-wise like Lando or Tran (and btw, it can run Calm Mind too (it more than often does), which is very threatening offensively), but is extremely threatening on its own right. For me, it’s threatening to the point that it warrants a spot in the S rank.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

Alright, I have an exciting new nomination for the VR. I would like to nom KlingKlang to from UR -> C. Many of you pretty basic and don't know about the mans so I'll give this rundown: klingklang is a steel type mon with stats such as this: HP/60 - Atk/100 - Def/115 - SpA/70 - SpD/85 - Spe/90

To be honest, nothing out of the ordinary, looks like a decent physical attacker. However what klingklang holds are its moves and coverage! It has shift gear which is a 1 turn set up, clear body so it cant be affected by lando, and moves like gear grind (steelium z will kill lando +1 doing like 88% - outspeeds too) and a great move is Wild Charge! Wild charge is an amazing move on it b/c in this broken meta u can give it a terrain boost with koko. z wild charge even okos zapdos in terrain.
For your last move you can have coverage like hp fire or even go full 200 IQ and do giga impact! Here are the calcs and replays. It counters webs too b/c it cant be put at negative speed b/c of clear body

+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 246-290 (77.1 - 90.9%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos in Electric Terrain: 317-373 (82.7 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos in Electric Terrain: 317-373 (82.7 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Electric Terrain: 230-272 (69 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 296-350 (88.8 - 105.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

and if u run z giga
+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 324-382 (101.5 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swampert-Mega: 274-323 (80.3 - 94.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock -- bruh lmao u outspeed too lmao

return is by far more modest but still
+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Breakneck Blitz (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swampert-Mega: 220-259 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
.

All in all sick of you niggas im happy to nom this overlooked mon and i believe it deserves usage in the tier.

high ladder replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-784644674
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-784624401 - hell ya
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-784620578 - the team was garbage but if i had rocks it legit swept did u see that damage on lando

 

[Lil Infant Tylenol]

Alright so I wanted to make a post about the Green Snake

Zygarde definitely should go from A+->S. This has been discussed on the thread, but I would like to add to it. Some of the stuff is obvious why its so good. DD coil iapapa berry is the most common and has the ability to set up on basically any physical attacker that doesnt have a super effective move. Then there is the attack thousand arrows which can deal with traditional ground counters. It also can bypass secondary types so it does neutral damage to Mega Pinsir. Then also, it has extreme speed allows Zygarde to be really hard to revenge kill. A +1 does 58.2-68.7 to a scarf gren and can pick it off when weakened. Obviously non of this is news to people playing the tier (and may not be enough to move it up), but I would like to show how it has the ability to pick its counters like no one else in the tier (except maybe Lando) has the ability to do.

So to start off the most common counter to Zygarde is Tangrowth. Well what about if the Zygarde Z outrage. At +1, Zygarde does this amount to AV Tangrowth
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Tangrowth: 342-403 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Ok thats cool, but what about defensive. Spoiler alert, its not much better. HP Ice does 55.8-65.9%. However A +2 Z Outrage is guarnteed ohko after rocks. On top of this, it is really impossible to tell what type of Zygarde it is.
+2 252+ Atk Zygarde Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 360-424 (89.3 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Alright so thats cool and all, but what about Unaware mons? Here is how clefable takes a banded Zygarde.
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Ok what about quagsire.
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
Granted this makes it locked into outrage and allows the team to switch into a steel type/ fairy type, but then Zygarde could switch out the next turn if its a fairy and 50% chance to be a 2 turn outrage if the quagsire stays in. Then there is also a pyuk. A sub Zygarde can just set up on pyuk as pyuk helplessly sits there doing nothing. Alright, these mons are on stall teams. On basically any other play style, Lando-T is often used as the premier counter on balanced or bulky offense. Granted it is the best counter if it is defensive. Offensive Lando is Ohkoed by neutral devasting drake after rocks. Even it is Defensive, Lando-T is probably the easiest mon to chip. Even if the zygarde wanted to, Zygarde has the ability to beat Lando 1v1. Defensive Lando-t's HP Ice also does only 48-57 and z outrage is this
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 331-391 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery. So all you need is a little bit of chip and and then a +1 Zygarde then goes ham on the team. Then also not to mention its ability to provide utility. It can cripple its offensive checks with a 100% accurate glare that can cripple the offensive checks.

So I really think that people have been underrating this mon. I speculate it is because Lando-T is on most teams and people really believe that lando-t is a counter (as mentioned before it is really not). There is a reason why it is on a lot of OLT teams. Its splashable and can sweep through teams really easily. Imo, it is definitely an S tier mon along the ranks of Heatran

TL;DR
Zygarde can pick its counters so it effectively has 0 counters. There is a way to beat every single mon in the tier with Zygarde.

 

[MikeDawg]

SHAYMIN TO C RANK
​

First of all, Shaymin is by far the cutest pokemon. He always tries his best, and that's a fact.

But just when we thought Shaymin couldn't get any better, we were recently blessed with an event that gave him the move Celebrate. It's understandable as to why this wouldn't drum up any hype right off the bat, but with some closer examination & a few good meta shifts, Shaymin is ready to take his rightful position near the bottom of the tier list. <3 Here's the set in question:

Shaymin @ Normalium Z
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Seed Flare
- Hidden Power [Rock] / Hidden Power [Ice] / Hidden Power [Fire] / Synthesis
- Earth Power
- Celebrate


As a bulky grass type, Shaymin has plenty of set up opportunities, especially given the ease with which he forces switches. Especially considering Seed Flare's SpDef drop chance, he has relatively few reliable switch-ins due to his coverage. Not only that, but Celebrate itself invalidates many of these would-be hard checks & counters. A super common scenario:

1. Shaymin in against good matchup (Greninja, Koko, Kartana, Clefable, etc.).

2. Opponent switches in Torn-T, Shaymin uses Celebrate

3. Shaymin outspeeds and:

+1 252+ SpA Shaymin Hidden Power Rock vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 196-232 (65.5 - 77.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

As long as Torn has taken a few percent in chip damage at some point in the battle, Shaymin can secure the KO. Worst case scenario, as long as Torn has already used up its Z-Crystal, Hurricane only does ¬68% if it hits. The alternative is that they leave the original mon in to sack, Shaymin tanks a hit and sets up, then 1hkos with appropriate move.

Another common case:

1. Shaymin in against good matchup.

2. Opponent sacks a mon to revenge or set up on Shaymin (Pinsir, Torn, Alakazam, etc.). Shaymin uses Celebrate.

3. Shaymin outspeeds and 1hkos, or can easily tank a hit. Here's some of those calcs:

Pinsir can't 2HKO with Quick Attack

252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Quick Attack vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 120-144 (35.1 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252+ SpA Shaymin Hidden Power Rock vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsir-Mega: 392-464 (144.6 - 171.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Alakazam

+1 252+ SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam-Mega: 258-304 (102.7 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Scarf Blacephalon can't 1HKO with Fire Blash

252 SpA Blacephalon Flamethrower vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 218-260 (63.9 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ SpA Shaymin Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Blacephalon: 326-384 (131.9 - 155.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(Mega) Latios can't 3HKO with DM

252 SpA Latios-Mega Draco Meteor vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 165-195 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 142-168 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252+ SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 127-150 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Scarf Kartana doesn't 2HKO

252 SpA Latios-Mega Draco Meteor vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 165-195 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

+1 252+ SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 127-150 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Mega Medicham can't 5HKO

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 49-58 (14.3 - 17%) -- possible 6HKO

+1 252+ SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Medicham-Mega: 307-363 (117.6 - 139%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Scarf Lele can't 2HKO & is 1HKOd by Seed Flare

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin in Psychic Terrain: 148-175 (41.4 - 49.3%)

+1 252+ SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 237-280 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

After that, he is typically free to sweep. Because of that ridiculous bulk, Shaymin can comfortably run Modest, which gives him an effective Base 115 SpAtk, and a surprising amount of power in practice.

The prevalence of Zygarde and Tapu Bulu work out really well for Shaymin. Most variants of Zygarde are easy set up fodder, and Bulu has the obvious boon of giving Shaymin passive healing and a massive boost to Seed Flare. Because of its popularity surge, it's not uncommon to find Bulu on the opposing team, which is great if you don't want to deal with running double grass. From an even more general perspective, with Magnezone support, Shaymin can easily beat comfortably beat all of the A, A+ and S mons (except for unburdened Hawlucha) while taking only small amounts of damage.

Shaymin's coverage and 40% SpDef drop makes him a pretty big nightmare for bulkier mons, especially with Grassy Terrain support. Here's an assortment of calcs for your viewing pleasure:

Toxapex w/o Grassy Terrain

252+ SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 102-120 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252+ SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 202-238 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Good matchup vs even Ice Beam Magearna

+1 252+ SpA Shaymin Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 238-282 (79 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Magearna Ice Beam vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 132-156 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252+ SpA Shaymin Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 118-140 (32.5 - 38.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ SpA Shaymin Earth Power vs. -2 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 236-278 (65 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Clefable 1HKO at +1 Grassy Terrain

+1 252+ SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Grassy Terrain: 439-517 (111.4 - 131.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 66-78 (19.3 - 22.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

2HKO SpDef Bulu at +1 Without Drop

+1 252+ SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tapu Bulu in Grassy Terrain: 150-177 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

+1 252+ SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tapu Bulu in Grassy Terrain: 300-354 (87.4 - 103.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

0 Atk Tapu Bulu Megahorn vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 146-172 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

AV Tangrowth Surprisingly Ok

+1 252+ SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 99-117 (24.5 - 28.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 199-234 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ SpA Shaymin Hidden Power Fire vs. -2 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 266-314 (65.8 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Tangrowth Hidden Power Ice vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 64-76 (18.7 - 22.2%) -- possible 5HKO

Chansey in Grassy Terrain

+1 252+ SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Grassy Terrain: 255-301 (36.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

+1 252+ SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Grassy Terrain: 511-603 (72.7 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

252+ SpA Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Grassy Terrain: 340-402 (48.4 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

In terms of support: Shaymin loves grassy terrain, though it only really helps against super bulky mons. Magnezone support is super great, though not necessary, so that you can run HP Rock/Ice without worry. Pursuit support to weaken Chansey, Tornadus, and co. is cool too, though Shaymin already has a pretty good matchup against Latios.

The only reason Shaymin shouldn't be ranked any higher is because it takes up a Z-Crystal slot. Considering that, he fits in well in the upper part of C rank alongside friends like Crawdaunt, Manectric, Ninetails, and Zeraora.

Here are some recent replays from climbing on a new alt with a poorly thrown together set of 5 mons + Shaymin. Don't give too much weight to these because, like I said, they are some random mid ladder games. The main takeaway regardless of the plays is how easily Shaymin can tear apart common team setups from team preview.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-785192257
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-785187085
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-785185399
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-784714127

tl;dr: Shaymin is S+ rank cuteness, C rank viability

 

[Jordy]

→ A-
Why this didn't make it onto the slate, idk, but I'll try to explain, why I believe this should rise(sorry I'm a bit tired). This Pokemon is one of the best, most reliable sweepers out there and is most definitely a notch above the other Pokemon in B+. Its natural bulk, ability, and typing makes Reuniclus an absolute pain to deal with for most teams right now. The Double Dance set, when coupled with Toxic Spikes, turns some of its 'counters' into setup bait, namely Tyranitar and Weavile, which can't sufficiently damage it at +2 Defense. Steel-types such as Celesteela and Curse Mega Scizor have also seen a slight uptick in usage, which are setup bait for Reuniclus aswell (Reuniclus beats Curse Mega Scizor in a 1v1 situation). Overall, I think Reuniclus is frankly amazing and it's very threatening against a lot of teams; B+ criminally underrates it, move it up.

→UR
Basically everything I said in my last post and the newfound competition from Ribombee makes me believe there is enough ground to unrank Shuckle.

e: A lot of ho's that don't run Mega Gyarados or Blacephalon usually tend to struggle vs Reuniclus.

 

[paoisd]

Zard y up to B- or B
I wanted to hate this pokemon. I was happy that it was bad (or so i thought). Lately, though, charizard Y has been seeing a lot of popularity and for good reason. For a team to be able to not automatically lose to this pokemon they have to have a chansey pex zygarde mantine or lati. pretty much all of these are taken care of by choice band ttar which is his best partner and is great right now so that's not hard to fit. Also, the prediction game between if it is zard x or y really helps it. if you have your charizard out, they might wanna go into their pex or lando assuming its zard x, and then you just flamethrower ohko or 2hko. This pokemon is really fantastic right now and shoud definitely rise. (side note: it also kind of destroys veil)
zard x up to B+
When one zard rises, the other one does to. such is the nature of the pokemon. zard x definitely appreciates a lot of the bulkier teams that are being used right now as he obliterates bulky teams. ground fire dragon coverage from his attack stat + tough claws is kind of ridiculous and tear apart teams while a rare dd can catch people off guard. (i also feel like it should be explored with on some ho teams as it probably has some great potential there but i wont talk about that) zard really appreciates the usage of clefable and steel types like heatran celesteela mawile etc. please rise this pokemon
lop stays in B+
idk why people want this pokemon to drop as i feel like it is in a really good spot right now. as always it is fast and strong enough with the movepool to just clean teams late game, and it is a great lead due to fake out. ice punch has been used again a lot recently because of the zygarde usage which is good for it as it can be a semi check to zygarde in some situations. it also appreciates the rise of protean gren because it just outspeeds it and ohkos it. also as always mega lop obliterates ho which is extremely popular right now. i actually have no idea why people want this to drop and it definitely should not drop.
hippo up to B
everyone knows what hippo does so i dont need to go very in depth, but basically people have started using it on stall a lot because it is a great check to common stall annoyers like heatran and tyranitar. it is super consistent at setting rocks up and just never dying. again, not much to say just that it should definitely rise
serp up to B+
originally used for its strength on ho, i started experimenting with the sub seed glare set on balance, and damn is it amazing. people have already said everything there is to say about this on multiple different threads so i just want to show my support for this nom as i think serp is in a great place right now.
shaymin up to c or c-
not much to add to the post before, just that c might be a little too high, but shaymin is surprisingly good right now. i actually used z celebrate a lot myself and i personally love it with tapu bulu to 2hko some resistances after the seed flare spdef drop which will almost always happen. again, not much to add on and i just wanna show my support for this
magearna up to A+
why is this in a? magearna has about 3 great sets right now in shift gear 3 attacks, shift gear calm mind, and offensive trick room which are all absolutely fantastic and can fit on every single team style except for stall. other than these 3 sets, it also has av and defensive z move or leftovers which are really good for stall and balance/bulky offense. it really appreciates the use of things like clefable and most bulky offense and hyper offense teams cant even switch into defensive variants because of it's coverage and sheer power. please rise this
mega slowbro up to c+ or B-
Slowbro is a great blanket change right now for zygarde, heatran, landorus, clefable, toxapex and many more metagame staples. the 3 attack wall set is great but also the calm mind set is great and both of these are extra good because they can choose their counters depending on the moves they choose. adding this pokemon to a defensive team can give the team a glue or a win con and the unpredictability of it really helps it's case as a good pokemon. the rise of zygarde is great for it and i think it definitely deserves to rise

echo zygarde clef crawdaunt blace up

 

[lordoftets]

Alright, I have an exciting new nomination for the VR. I would like to nom KlingKlang to from UR -> C. Many of you pretty basic and don't know about the mans so I'll give this rundown: klingklang is a steel type mon with stats such as this: HP/60 - Atk/100 - Def/115 - SpA/70 - SpD/85 - Spe/90

To be honest, nothing out of the ordinary, looks like a decent physical attacker. However what klingklang holds are its moves and coverage! It has shift gear which is a 1 turn set up, clear body so it cant be affected by lando, and moves like gear grind (steelium z will kill lando +1 doing like 88% - outspeeds too) and a great move is Wild Charge! Wild charge is an amazing move on it b/c in this broken meta u can give it a terrain boost with koko. z wild charge even okos zapdos in terrain.
For your last move you can have coverage like hp fire or even go full 200 IQ and do giga impact! Here are the calcs and replays. It counters webs too b/c it cant be put at negative speed b/c of clear body

+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 246-290 (77.1 - 90.9%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos in Electric Terrain: 317-373 (82.7 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos in Electric Terrain: 317-373 (82.7 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Electric Terrain: 230-272 (69 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 296-350 (88.8 - 105.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

and if u run z giga
+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 324-382 (101.5 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swampert-Mega: 274-323 (80.3 - 94.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock -- bruh lmao u outspeed too lmao

return is by far more modest but still
+1 252+ Atk Klinklang Breakneck Blitz (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swampert-Mega: 220-259 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
.

All in all sick of you niggas im happy to nom this overlooked mon and i believe it deserves usage in the tier.

high ladder replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-784644674
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-784624401 - hell ya
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-784620578 - the team was garbage but if i had rocks it legit swept did u see that damage on lando

If you want it to be ranked, you need to give a good reason to use Klinklang over OU's existing Steel types. Every calc you posted can also be accomplished by Magearna running Fairium Z. It doesn't need Electric Terrain's help to KO Zapdos, and it still outspeeds and KOs Adamant Mega Swampert in the rain. Its typing gives it better offensive and defensive utility, its coverage is much wider, and its high Special Attack combined with Soul Heart ensures that it can wreak havoc even without a SG boost.

If you really need a Steel-type physical sweeper, there's Stakataka, which can also 2HKO Landorus-T and Zapdos while hitting harder than +1 Klinklang and having a powerful Rock-type STAB + Superpower to hit Ferrothorn. Or if you're gonna pair up Klinklang and Koko, why not just pair up Swords Dance Excadrill with Tyranitar?

EDIT: Went into the Discord this weekend and apologized to Omari. I was in a bad mood when I wrote this, and I wanted him to make a better case for Klinklang. Demi Lovato buy Sober on iTunes convinced me by citing its performance vs. Sticky Web teams, though it's not the biggest playstyle atm. I didn't know the VIPs were gonna pounce on him.

 

[Freshgamer]

Zard Y from C+ to B (or B-) - Agreed

I want emphasise many teams check to Zard Y right now, is either Mega Lati, Zygarde or Chansey. While Toxapex has been present, it hasn't had the iron grasp it once had due the prevalence of Pokemon such as Heatran (who can trap), Zygarde and Koko (who is one the best mons in A+) etc. It preys on current meta trends such as Gastrodon balance cores (though it has been losing traction, is still a solid balance mon), the rising of Celesteela (which sponges on Pokemon such as Mega Alakazam and Latios), bulky SD Bulu, Clefable, Mega Scizor and even Heatran to some extent. Paired with a Pokemon such as TTar or Weavile (I've even seen both paired with Zard Y a couple times, Weavile helps against unboosted Zygarde whilst having Knock Off to pressure Chansey) and hazard removal which is on most teams any way, with Pokemon such as Koko, Kart or Gliscor, this Pokemon is a solid wall-breaker choice right now, it just needs that extra kick. Also the prediction between factor of whether it's Y or X also helps, as it could end up the opponent losing a valuable wall if they predict wrong. (Though generally when paired with TTar, it's easier to predict which one.)

Other Noms

to B+ - Agreed. Solid wall-breaker and it's DD set has been gaining traction again due to Lando-T changing from Defensive to Bulky Scarf which it doesn't pivot into as well.

to A+ - Agreed. This thing loves when Psychic types are dominant. It checks Pokemon such as Mega Latios and Alakazam well, and despite Heatran being dominant it's a solid choice on Balance.

to S - Agreed. This mon is busted, it literally chooses it's checks depending on the set which it has a bunch of good ones. Versatile, splash-able and dominant in the meta.

to A- - Disagree. Tyranitar is still very strong and splash-able in the current meta, pressures a lot of Stall variants and common threats such as Heatran, Mega Lati and even the pink annoyance Clefable etc.

to A - Agreed. This staple of Stall has been gaining traction on Balance due to being able sponge pretty much every special hit. It's even been making work on Offensive teams to much surprise as a defensive pivot.

to A+ - Agreed. Honestly this Pokemon could even be S Rank material. It has the ability to role compress as a pivot + SD wall-breaker with the SpDef SD set or even go SD Z Move for the extra bang (It can even go Banded). Definitely agree with it going to A+ in the meantime.

to S - Agreed. Edited after RRah's post regarding Clef, who brought up despite it's flaws in being passive to various top tier threats, it's supportive qualities outweigh it's passiveness. It's fairly one-sided in that it's primarily used as a defensive pivot, but it can run CM effectively as well.

to B - Agreed. Solid Stall pick right now, helps against Pokemon such as Tyranitar and Heatran.

 

[Guard]

A few thoughts on some discussion points…


Clefable from A+ to S

Agree

Refer to my previous 2 posts (Essay Alert)

Edit: a lot of you seem to disagree on this because Clef is passive against top tier mons and isn't threatening on its own. I just wanna note that the same counts for Heatran and Lando too (the passivity part), since most Lando can't stop/are setup bait for a boosting Hawlucha, a boosting Clefable (Calm Mind/Stored Power, though not its most common sets), SD/Curse + Roost Mega Scizor, SD Tapu Bulu etc. while Heatran is passive against Calm Mind variants of Mega Zam, Mega Latias, Sub Zygarde, SD Gliscor, Volcarona etc. All of these mons are staples and top tier threats too.

As for the "threatening" part, I don't believe Clefable is discussed to be an S rank Pokemon because it's threatening but because of it's supportive qualities, much like Pex once was. Now Pex did have Haze to stop setup and therefore also the opponent gaining momentum and while Clef doesn't have that, it's Wishes, if correctly executed, can also immensely turn the momentum in a battle. And if you're really worried about setup, you could always run Thunder Wave over Wish (or Stealth Rock because both Heatran and Lando are excellent rockers too and have good synergy with Clef)

Lopunny-Mega to B

Not too sure. With Zam running Modest all the time, Mega Lop is basically the fastest Pokemon bar Zeraora, which is a pretty big niche. Reliably revenge killing stuff like Koko, (Non Scarf) (Ash-) Gren, chipped offensive Bulu, Band/Z-Kartana and now Mega Zam too is pretty nice. Pairing it with breakers should be enough to handle Balance, but it is pretty outclassed by a lot of mega’s right now due to it getting shut down by the omnipresent Clef. Abstain since this is all theorymonning and I haven’t really tried it out.

Tyranitar to A-

Agree

Its trapping capabilities are being undermined with Zam, Fightinium Lele and Mega Latios being the premier Psychics in teams, which also gives it competition with Weavile which is fast enough to threaten said threats (bar Zam, but that doesn’t want to risk Focus Miss anyway). The omnipresent core of Lando + Clef shuts it down and it’s a huge setup bait for (Coil/Double Dance) Zygarde when not locked in Crunch. Still very threatening in the right hands so A- seems suitable.

Chansey to A

Agree

Still the face of stall, so that department hasn’t changed but the recent success in Balance does make it a very intriguing pick right now. The ability to take on the rising Psychics (especially Zam) is invaluable while also providing rocks/cleric/status sponge support and the ability to PP stall a lot of things like the rising Serperior makes it shine even more. Frankly, it’s also a counter/check/blanket check to every single Special Attacker, some of which are on the rise again like Zard Y.

Replay of Chansey being boss: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-788240777 while being burned and without Eviolite

Quagsire to C+

Disagree

Pyukumuku might be the premier Unaware mon on Stall right now, but Quagsire is able to take on Offensive Heatran (bar Grassium Z ofc) which otherwise steamrolls through stall (while Pyukumuku gets trapped, Taunted and taken care of). Losing your Unaware mon can be game-deciding for stall, so to me it’s pretty questionable to blindly choose Pyukumuku over Quagsire while the meta (or at least the viability of the majority of the defensive metagame) is ruled by Heatran.

I also agree with Zygarde rising to S, but I’m tired of this getting rejected/ignored (while it frankly is a very logical nomination and should be realised). I have voiced my support for it countless amounts of times already so I’m not going to react to this anymore. Btw, it would be very helpful if the community could share the opinions on Clef and Zygarde moving to S (or maybe they have, but somehow I’m too dumb not to find them), since Clef rising is a discussion point again (which suggests there are divided opinions about this) and it confuses me why they haven’t been ranked S already.

 

[Ryomathekillers]

If you want it to be ranked, you need to give a good reason to use Klinklang over OU's existing Steel types. Every calc you posted can also be accomplished by Magearna running Fairium Z. It doesn't need Electric Terrain's help to KO Zapdos, and it still outspeeds and KOs Adamant Mega Swampert in the rain. Its typing gives it better offensive and defensive utility, its coverage is much wider, and its high Special Attack combined with Soul Heart ensures that it can wreak havoc even without a SG boost.

If you really need a Steel-type physical sweeper, there's Stakataka, which can also 2HKO Landorus-T and Zapdos while hitting harder than +1 Klinklang and having a powerful Rock-type STAB + Superpower to hit Ferrothorn. Or if you're gonna pair up Klinklang and Koko, why not just pair up Swords Dance Excadrill with Tyranitar?

I do agree with klinklang being ranked, but for other reasons and that reason is that it is quite fantastic against ho and webs cheese being immune to webs and being able to heavily damage most mons on it with a z move with the exception of xurkitree which is a unmon and even then a +1 breakneck blitz(return) kills and a corkscrew crash kills after rocks, the fact that is also beats screens is nice as it sets up and scares out alolatails and can kill everymon on standerd ho with rocks support and the right set, it can also be a decent balance breaker depending on the team you are facing as most counters such as zygarde and zapdos die to z moves, klinklang is a viable option for teams but imo I believe it should stay in the c-/c rank

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

If you want it to be ranked, you need to give a good reason to use Klinklang over OU's existing Steel types. Every calc you posted can also be accomplished by Magearna running Fairium Z. It doesn't need Electric Terrain's help to KO Zapdos, and it still outspeeds and KOs Adamant Mega Swampert in the rain. Its typing gives it better offensive and defensive utility, its coverage is much wider, and its high Special Attack combined with Soul Heart ensures that it can wreak havoc even without a SG boost.

If you really need a Steel-type physical sweeper, there's Stakataka, which can also 2HKO Landorus-T and Zapdos while hitting harder than +1 Klinklang and having a powerful Rock-type STAB + Superpower to hit Ferrothorn. Or if you're gonna pair up Klinklang and Koko, why not just pair up Swords Dance Excadrill with Tyranitar?

it's like you didnt take reading comp but ok lol. Good afternoon kind sir, while idk why you're hating lol ill try to take this as seriously as I can. Idk why you posted that mage gets shift gear (other than patronization) lol shits not a physical sweeper but cool beans lmao.
"Every calc you posted can also be accomplished by Magearna running Fairium Z. " - lol thats fine. every calc I posted and be done by a darmanitan. Don't straw man me lol. Mage and the klang god are not only different types of sweepers, but klang is far faster (did I mention it was physical). The rest of that paragraph is just you thirsting over mage lol so ill just skip on the rest. i know mage is thick but goddamn.


"there's Stakataka, which can also 2HKO Landorus-T and Zapdos while hitting harder than +1 Klinklang and having a powerful Rock-type STAB + Superpower to hit Ferrothorn. Or if you're gonna pair up Klinklang and Koko, why not just pair up Swords Dance Excadrill with Tyranitar?"
- not only does Stakataka need to be in TR most of time, its harder to fit on teams but thats my opinion so take the latter w/ a grain of salt. As far as sd drill with tyranitar ? Not only are these both doing different things lol it set up for an entirely different type of squad.

anyway continue using mage lol u clearly got a thing for it. dont mind me over here

 

[MikeDawg]

If you want it to be ranked, you need to give a good reason to use Klinklang over OU's existing Steel types. Every calc you posted can also be accomplished by Magearna running Fairium Z. It doesn't need Electric Terrain's help to KO Zapdos, and it still outspeeds and KOs Adamant Mega Swampert in the rain. Its typing gives it better offensive and defensive utility, its coverage is much wider, and its high Special Attack combined with Soul Heart ensures that it can wreak havoc even without a SG boost.

I agree with this, but also that's why magearna is one of the best in the tier whereas Klang is getting nominated for a niche rank (though maybe it should be C- instead, but idrc).

Klang is certainly viable on its own, and it escapes being completely outclassed by mag by A) being a physical fast steel and B) beating webs. The tier is stuffed with special tanks (for good reason). Meanwhile, the most common physical answers are celesteela/skarm/zapdos (beaten by wild charge), lando-t (clear body), scizor and ferro (beaten by hp fire or magnezone), and fast revenge killers (shift gear).

 

[AM]

The better question is why do people eat up these shit ass nominations people make as if a month or so down the line its going to get unranked because shocker it doesnt do anything genuinely relevant to the tier and has such a miniscule niche to the point its not even really a thing? That post got 20 likes over a bunch of calcs, a generic analysis of it, and replays where the first two his opponents played like absolute dogshit (sorry if you’re reading this and you were his opponents) and all together kling had nothing to do with the ultimate outcome of the matches.

But keep going, spend two pages or more talking about absolute garbage no one, especially new users to OU for which the VR is actually for, is going to use, build for, or replace with something better in the long run.

Again

 

[Leo]

That’s enough on the gears, further discussion won’t help the nom so please drop the topic already and focus on the discussion points highlighted in the slate if you don’t have a new nom, thanks

 

[Guard]

→ A-
Why this didn't make it onto the slate, idk, but I'll try to explain, why I believe this should rise(sorry I'm a bit tired). This Pokemon is one of the best, most reliable sweepers out there and is most definitely a notch above the other Pokemon in B+. Its natural bulk, ability, and typing makes Reuniclus an absolute pain to deal with for most teams right now. The Double Dance set, when coupled with Toxic Spikes, turns some of its 'counters' into setup bait, namely Tyranitar and Weavile, which can't sufficiently damage it at +2 Defense. Steel-types such as Celesteela and Curse Mega Scizor have also seen a slight uptick in usage, which are setup bait for Reuniclus aswell (Reuniclus beats Curse Mega Scizor in a 1v1 situation). Overall, I think Reuniclus is frankly amazing and it's very threatening against a lot of teams; B+ criminally underrates it, move it up.

→UR
Basically everything I said in my last post and the newfound competition from Ribombee makes me believe there is enough ground to unrank Shuckle.

e: A lot of ho's that don't run Mega Gyarados or Blacephalon usually tend to struggle vs Reuniclus.

I find your nomination about Reuniclus fairly interesting. I've used it in 20 battles to test it out and it sweeped the opposing team an impressive 13/20 times (around 1800 ladder) so I agree that it's very very underrated and should rise. However, your mention of a so-called Double Dance set isn't really realistic, as running both Calm Mind and Iron Defense means it gets stripped from coverage moves. Reuniclus really wants both Psyshock (to blast through Chansey and win opposing CM wars) and either Focus Blast for Dark-types or Shadow Ball for Psychic Types (or Signal Beam for both). Also, it's invested physical bulk is already impressive enough so it doesn't really need ID that much.

Why I think this should rise is because it has a great matchup against Balance, which ,most of the time, lacks mons that can 2OHKO it with either Knock Off or U-Turn. Also, it's a very solid check to all the Psychics running around, like Lele, Non-Shadow Ball-Zam, Non-Draco-Mega Latios and Mega Medicham (which makes it the only non-passive Medi-counter since nothing 2OHKO's it). And with Tyranitar being more lurable than ever, another very big nuisance (Pursuit) is also remedied. All in all, Reuniclus is in an excellent spot right now (probably the best it has ever been) and should rise.

 

[Jordy]

However, your mention of a so-called Double Dance set isn't really realistic, as running both Calm Mind and Iron Defense means it gets stripped from coverage moves.

You should probably watch a bit more ladder games. Also pair it with Toxic Spikes, and use Acid Armor because it has more PP. Acid Armor is essential to outstalling Dark-types or escaping Pursuit in case Toxic Spikes arent up.

e: also this https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/reuniclus-revamp.3639930/