Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[teachable]

Oh right, Zygarde go nommed for S
Agree

This is like super overdue, this mon has like an obnoxious amount of sets, all of which are good, and there is very few Pokemon in the metagame that can reliably check all of them. The most reliable checks I can think of to every possible set are Curse Scizor and Avalugg, but both are suspectible to being worn down and put into range of (these mostly fell out of favor, but worth considering nonetheless) Groundium and Steelium respectively. Tangrowth and Bulu lose to variants running Toxic/T-Spikes support and Sub/Tect. Lando is a shitty check considering how easily it gets worn down and god forbid you HP Ice a WP set. Basically you can guess wrong and lose or not be packing the counter to XYZ set and lose at team preview. Offense isn't really all this thing has going for it, its also disgusting fat with a good typing, especially given the absolute necessity of running an electric immunity in this meta. It really speaks to a mon's bulk when it can run a WP set without screens support (although Zygarde screens is disgusting).

Avalugg to C
Disagree

I will admit that this mon is definitely the best Zygarde check that can fit on M-Sableye stall builds but overall I don't really feel like that is a large enough of a niche to justify it going to C from C-. I do, however, believe we really need to clean up the entire C tier because it has a lot of mons that have lost their niche with metagame trends dying down/dissapearing.

Clefable to S
Agree

Kinda overdue also, this mons movepool is pretty disgusting and it doesn't exactly have an issue utilizing it. Calm Mind is fucking terrifying and can run 2 coverage moves effectively making guessing what checks it a guessing game entirely. Relying on Ferro to check it? Oops, Flamethrower. Pex? Oopsies, I'm Psyshock and get to start fishing for crits. Heatran? Sorry, I'm running T-wave, good luck doing anything useful now. Seriously, start fucking running T-wave again its still broken. In addition, its arguably the most consistent Rocker for balance and access to Wish for supporting Scarf Lando and Unaware to act as a non-Steelium Zygarde check on Balance/Stall makes it a versatile Pokemon that does all of its roles exceptionally. I'd honestly consider running Clefable on any team I'd build (I'll post CM Screens/Veil sometime, Hail chip is kinda fire), albeit I'm a bit crazy when it comes to teambuilding, but it specifically is incredible on and against Balance/Offense/Stall which encompasses the large majority of the current metagame.

Gonna nom apu Bulu to A+

Bulu is the glue holding together a lot of teams right now, especially with the popularity of the Spdef + SD set with Synth/Tect. It's arguably the most consistent Ash-Greninja check (fuck this Pokemon) and its popularity is IMO whats holding back A-Gren from being an S rank mon. Torn picked up in popularity but lemme drop this quote:
[12:12 PM] Dani: z rock bulu is still pretty good
[12:13 PM] Dani: you yeet on torn switch ins
[12:17 PM] Jordy: do u dab on it right after
Seriously, Ferrothorn has plenty of other checks and every other Steel is hit neutrally by Stone Edge. Most teams are opting as Torn for their primary Bulu check which... lets you kinda just yote all over them with Rockium and start doing Bulu shit.

 

[TCTphantom]

Ageee w Zygarde to S

Oh my yes, Zygarde is and has been for a while the best sweeper in the tier and one of the best wall breakers. My favorite sets rn on Zygarde are DD Z Draco and double dance in veil/screens. When your best checks are curse Scizor and avalugg you know you are a threat. Pairing Zygarde with t spikes just makes things that much better since it lets it win against grasses. I do think rn sub dd is not as good as the other two sets because literally everyone and their mother is running good defoggers like Torn T, but that set is still really good especially vs fat teams. Band is nice as it essentially gets at least one kill a match and in bad matchups it can be used to tank a hit and just punish.

Agree with Bulu to A+

Bulu is the best glue in the game rn for offensive or balanced teams. Like if I feel the team is a bit zygarde weak or ash gren weak Bulu patches up those holes. Spdef sd is godly and is my favorite set as it makes Bulu stick around longer. AV is not as good imo but terrain and horn leach keep ya in the game so that’s ok. Just for its ability to be such a godsend in team building makes me feel this non is A+ worthy, imo it’s easily better than everything else in A rn aside from maybe Scizor rn.

Unrank Mega Manectric

Holy hell this mon is trash rn. Even with overheat the only bulky grass you realistically threaten is non about tang, everything else just heals up tanks the hit and makes Manes life harder. Obviously Koko is better than this thing but Zeraora is so much better too. For one no mega obvi but also Zeraora actually has a nice move pool. Like there are no surprises for this mon. Taking up the mega spot when there are actually so many great Megas is unforgivable. Like even aero is better than this thing because at least aero has moves that make it more annoying to counter and rock flying is just a good type offensively. This mon is terrible and should be dropped.

Haven’t played enough with reuinicles and snorlax yet, but from my small scope of games both are super good, some teams auto lose to them on matchup. I could see them rising but I need to play more with them.

Also Zeraora to higher, at least C+. Band Zero is really solid with an amazing speed tier and plasma fists being annoying to switch into. Literally outspeeding everything in the tier unboosted. Life orb mixed also is good st being a pest to offensive teams. Partners well with Koko as terrain makes this thing a beast and can whistle down a lot of koko checks. This mon is easily better than most of C rn and should be at least c+.

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Volcarona: A- --> A
Ik we dropped this thing a bit ago but I think it shouldn't have happened. Volc is in a p good spot rn. For one thing, it outpaces the best scarfer in lando t at +1 with the only 100+ scarfers able to RK it being gren and keld. Also, there are claims that cause it can't carry all the coverage it wants at once, its having a hard time. Thats every mon with any case of 4MSS. If anything, this meta allows Volc to be more set in stone in what coverage it needs and thus being easier to build around. It now has an established set of Fire Blast, Bug Buzz, Quiver Dance, and HP Ground. Also, Z Bug is now known as the best hold item. It can still run psychic tho. And defog being so ez to fit only benefits Volc as it's easier to build around. Being able to beat top megas in latios and zam is never a bad thing either. If u give this thing defog, and a chansey and pex killer, this thing can do work in nearly every battle. Also, flame body makes nice cheese burns if u need to if u wanna sack it vs a physical attacker.

 

[Gross Sweep]

Haven’t posted since the last big update, and now seemed like as good a time as ever now that the thread is unlocked. So much discussion has taken place that I’m going to restrict this post to just mons mentioned in the discussion slate by Finch. Then in a few days I’ll touch on other noms that interest me. Anyways, we have a lot to talk about, so let’s get this going.

We come back to the discussion that has been taking place for what feels like months: Is Clefable an A+ mon or does it deserve an S rank of some kind. For a long time I have been big on this mon staying in A+, and my opinion on the matter has started to change I think. Clefable is a great mon being a staple on balance, which is still king imo even though ladder is loving HO during OLT season. Between Wish + Soft-Boiled sets who puts the team on its back keeping everyone alive while getting rocks, and sets opting for CM over Wish helping vs opposing fat Clefable really can do it all for a dominate style. My only reservation may be that it’s not as good as the S ranks current inhabitants of Heatran and Landorus-T. I think Clefable has a strong case for S rank, and I’ll be interested to see where this ends up.

M-Lopunny has been falling off for a while now. Lopunny can struggle vs fatter balances which are very popular making things tough for Lopunny. Even HO can be tough for Lopunny now since Screens is probably the leading HO style right now, making it so mons like Zygarde and Shift gear Magearna, or even Z-Rain Dance Manaphy who can boost speed isn’t that afraid of Lopunny. I don’t know what to say, except that I can’t imagine a lot of match ups where Lopunny is super helpful, so I’d support a drop to B.

Suicune is interesting to say the least. I can’t actually remember the last time I’ve seen one of these, and that’s a bad thing I suppose. I still think Vincune is a pretty great mon in the right situation, but I struggle to see those scenarios. It’s not even that trends are working against Suicune, besides like Tangrowth and Serperior rising (tho Cune can stall out Serp if it gets a sub up before Serp comes in). I more think it’s a scenario of there are just better options, and you have to go out of your way to actually use Suicune. I’m fine with dropping this thing to B-, not 100% sure on C+ though.

I hate Mantine, so I’m more than ok with a drop. I don’t like my Ash Greninja folding if rocks get up and my opponent is out there spamming Dark Pulse attempting to flinch as the best I can do back is Toxic/Scald after I attempt to Roost back. I’m sure Mantine does have some use, it just won’t be on a team of mine, unless of course it’s Eject Button paired with Alolan Golem, s/o Zamrock.

I am a fan of Mega Slowbro, unlike Mantine there are a solid amount of good Ash Gren switch ins out there allowing M-Bro to find a home in the tier. A lot of teams also just find a way to lose to M-Slowbro, which isn’t a bad thing. The only negative aspect of really using M-Bro is that you’re using up your mega slot on it while competing with non megas like Reuniclus for its spot on a team. I still think it’s worth a rise as M-Bro is much better than C rank, it’s an underprepared for threat that can serve as a Wincon + defensive answer to some annoying mons like Hawlucha, Swampert, and Zygarde which is very nice.

I’m ok with a Tyranitar drop. I still think it’s a strong pick, but it’s just a little slow for my taste in a breaker. Also the Latis this thing used to trap all the time are now pretty much always running EQ or Surf making things annoying for Ttar. Honestly just scrolling through the VR there isn’t a lot of mons that Ttar really scares. I will say too many people undervalue Rock types, and Banded Stone Edge can do a lot of work to a lot of teams. That said I still think Ttar can be hard to fit on teams and probably better fits in A- simply due to it not being useful in a lot of match ups if your opponent is smart and values bringing a rock resist. Aside from Banded edge the only real redeeming quality is Scarf Tar trapping on some teams like Bad Company. That said I still don’t think it’s enough to warrant staying in A, since A is a very elite level I just don't believe Ttar is at right now.

Chansey is a blob that you either hate or love, and more often than not I end up hating this thing. I think Pyuku rising a bit has helped stall upping its usage reminding everyone of how annoying Chansey is. Also just looking at OLT during cycle 1 a charge of Chansey offense type builds that once again served as a reminder of how great the blob is. I know some other players like Sabella have been using “chansey offense” type builds for a while now, but hopefully it’s becoming a better used strategy. I’m going to support the rise mainly based on stall rising a bit lately, and Chansey should definitely rise and fall with stall.

Quagsire is sitting next to Pyukumuku right now on the VR, and that’s a mistake. Be it Soak + Toxic, or my favorite in Spite Pyuku is just a better pick for a water type Unaware mon. Even with the ability to check Koko Quag is falling as the ever present Chansey remains and Hippo is on the rise to help with Koko. I can’t agree with Pyuku and Quagisre being the same rank, and I don’t think Pyuku should go above B-, so a drop for Quag just makes sense as it’s outclassed and people are rightfully passing on it when building stall.

I just mentioned Hippo is on the rise, and behold that’s it’s on the slate for a rise. Rising usage on stall, and fitting on some balances Hippos is a very nice mon right now. With solid typing in pure Ground, great recovery, bulk, phasing capabilities, and access to Rocks Hippowdon has a lot going for it. Is restricted to fatter builds, but that’s not a huge issue with how good teams with a bit of fat on them are. Lack of offensive presence is another potential pitfall, but I haven’t seen it be a huge hindrance. I will say I am supporting this raise as I like Hippo, but if council believes its presence on certain stall builds isn’t enough to rise this hippo up I can understand this thing staying B-.

Avalugg is an interesting mon, that raises one question from me to the council. Does it deserve to rise above Buzzwole and Moltres? ABR has played enough monotype random games to hide most of his relevant replays, so I sadly can’t find his game using Avalugg stall, but I can find 2 other interesting replays.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-386126

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-389227​

No Avalugg, but yes to some of its C- teammates in Buzzwole and Moltres. What they have in common is they’re odd meta picks that wall a few mons that usually have a good match up vs stall. So while yes Avalugg is fairly solid on stall walling some stuff like Zygarde I still believe it’s very similar to Buzzwole and Moltres. I don’t have a ton of experience using Avalugg, so I won’t try to break down the mon too much. Will just leave you with the question: Is it better than Buzzwole and Moltres? I trust the answer the council comes to.

I am down with dropping Terrakion to C+. I believe it can still be an extremely powerful mon in the metagame, just similar to Suicune I never find myself wanting to use the mon. I think if you have to go out of your way to use a mon, and it’s outclassed by other doing the role your forced mon is fulfilling you’re not talking about a mon with a great niche. I haven’t seen a Terrakion in months outside of one RMT where it was paired with Doublade (dope team btw). That said I don’t like mons being in any level of the B rank that are in that situation, just would like a larger niche to be fulfilled and not be so obscure.

Crawdaunt has started to rise a bit off TR as it does big damage to all the fat balance running around, and has strong priority for all the HO. Not much else to say, I feel a rise is very well deserved. Always been a fan of this thing, posted a team with it in the bazaar iirc, and am glad to see it get recognition.

Finally finished and happy to be posting on the VR again. As always I hope it wasn’t too boring. Tell next time where I touch on noms form the past 2 pages in the thread aside from a few obvious ones.

 

[Sultan]

Zygarde to S - Agree

I'm not sure if I can say much that hasn't already been said. The fact that Avalugg is not considered a complete joke should be a testament to how much of an effect it has on teambuilding. It is very unpredictable without having 4MSS, splashable enough to fit on all kinds of teams except stall, and brings unique offensive and defensive utility. Clear top 3 mon, and definitely deserves S rank. And on the other end of the scale...

Azelf to unranked - Agree

I'm not even sure if this has a niche. I hear it's supposed to be a suicide lead for HO, having Stealth Rock and Explosion. Well, number one, Lando-T does this better, as it has Swords Dance so its Explosion does not fall flat against bulky teams and Earthquake to avid forfeiting momentum to things like Heatran and Tyranitar. Secondly, Excadrill is often a better suicide lead for these teams anyway, as it can set rocks against stall without having to run Skill Swap and has extra utility in being able to spin away the opponent's hazards. Azelf suffers from 4MSS, as it wants to run all of Stealth Rock, Taunt, Explosion, Fire Blast, HP Ice, and Skill Swap. I'd even argue Uxie is the better suicide lead, as it at least has enough bulk to be able to run a Mental Herb so it won't be taunted by Protean Ninja and Koko, and Memento provides good setup opportunities. Besides, being a suicide lead is a little pointless in the metagame nowadays, since there are reliable Defog users like Tornadus-T and Gliscor which can easily Defog away Azelf's work. If someone can provide me a replay that shows Azelf doing something important in a battle that couldn't have easily been accomplished by Excadrill, Lando-T, or Uxie, I might change my opinion, but for now, I say Azelf should be unranked.

 

[Vengeance417]

Zygarde to S-rank.

I wholeheartedly agree with this, too. Imo, it's basically the best Pokemon in the meta right besides Heatran and Lando-T. It has a multitude of viable sets, like Banded, DD Steelium/Dragonium, Weakness Policy, SubGlare/Tox, RestTalk Dragon Tail/Toxic/Glare, Double Dance, I can even see some cool techs like trapper sets with Thousand Waves/(Z-) Block and sets with Core Enforcer to nullify Gliscor's Poison Heal and Torn-T's Regenerator being ran on occasion. This thing can viably do whatever the hell it wants and is easily the most versatile Pokemon in the meta.

 

[fightnugget]

I agree with Zygarde to S.

It's just kind of got everything it needs to succeed. Great bulk, stellar typing, moveslots for days because thousand arrows is insane (and also happens to not be affected by grassy terrain making bulu a great partner,) a movepool that can truly still be explored, there's nothing really that I can think of as far as meta trends that threaten zygarde to do anything but adapt, which it has this entire gen. Like, grass types are good now. We used to have bulky waters in ou, now we roll with bulky grasses. That's this fuck and kokos doing. No disrespect to Mohawk and snakelord.

Also want to echo Bulu to A+.

I just talked about the prevalence of bulky grasses and this is the best of them all IMO. Controlling terrain alone is a big deal. There are some teams now that need their terrain up at certain times, and sometimes certain terrains can just dick another team over, and not only that but sp Def bulu can switch into like any other tapu and reset the terrain. And grassy terrain is soooo good. Most mons that run ground coverage use EQ and obviously it's not only gonna patch up some of your teams weaknesses but also give some of them some a really useful resistance. But mostly that extra lefties recovery is so good.

I've been running the sd sp Def set from the analysis, but instead of synthesis I've been running leech seed, and I don't think I've missed synthesis once. SO much better on the switch and so much more useful for teammates that lack recovery like Tran, m-maw, zygarde, w/e. And you still heal up your bulu boy enough to take another hit. Best tapu, best terrain, best piercing, 5 bloody stars.

 

[Ske]

Zygarde A+>S Agree

I will echo this nomination and say this mon is borderline broken in my opinion and should be S Rank, it literately has no counters & can beat each and every one of its answers with a different set, It is the face of most Hyper Offense teams which is also highly prominent around this time around the official ladder tournament, Zygarde has been a burden to face for a lot players for a while now and im surprised it has stayed in A+ for so long. It is also not hard to fit too, It can fit on Bulky Offense, Balance, Hyper Offense, & it only really doesn't fit on stall which i actually have seen a couple times, Zygarde also is extremely centralizing causing mons like Tangrowth spike in usage & having to have multiple checks to deal with 1 Pokemon is unhealthy.

Mega Heracross B>B+
Mega Heracross is a very nice pick at the moment, it gets free switch ins to mons such as Scarf Lando, Ferrothorn, Tapu Bulu & it can break most balances & is even a huge threat to stall. Tapu Bulu paired with Bullet Seed Heracross can be lethal to defensive playstyles such as stall as it does so much to unaware clefable in terrain. Heracross isn't deadweight vs offense ether, With its bulk & typing it can get at least 1 kill before going down. its typing makes Heracross a offensive check to some pretty noteworthy threats such as Zygarde & Kartana which are very prominent at this time.



​

 

[Katy]

Zygarde A+>S Agree

I will echo this nomination and say this mon is borderline broken in my opinion and should be S Rank, it literately has no counters & can beat each and every one of its answers with a different set, It is the face of most Hyper Offense teams which is also highly prominent around this time around the official ladder tournament, Zygarde has been a burden to face for a lot players for a while now and im surprised it has stayed in A+ for so long. It is also not hard to fit too, It can fit on Bulky Offense, Balance, Hyper Offense, & it only really doesn't fit on stall which i actually have seen a couple times, Zygarde also is extremely centralizing causing mons like Tangrowth spike in usage & having to have multiple checks to deal with 1 Pokemon is unhealthy.

I agree with a rise of Zygarde to S. It's just too fitting on different Archetypes of teams. It is ridicolous to switchin to after Setups. DRagon Dance allowing it to outspeed the likes of Mlatis and bulky scarf Lando T.
Especially the Coil + DDance Set behind Dual Screens, Veil is difficult to handle, when Zygarde has already setup, being also able to revenge mons with Espeed.
Also is Dragonium Z zygarde not bad in the current metagame, being able to get past MLatis easier, which are on a decent amount of teams right now, aswell as being able to handle bulkier mons extremly well with Toxic is a factor I think makes this mon so good, since you can put this move on almost every Zygarde set somewhere.
I think Zygarde definetly belongs to S.





Another mon I AGREE on being S is Clefable. With the rise of Bulky Offense / Balance teams Clefable found it's way on more and more teams, It is a very good Stealth Rocker imho, if not the best currently with Heatran. Also being able to Calm Mind infront of a good amount of mons currently makes it even a bigger threat imho.

Long Story short: Zygarde and Clefable S agreed.

 

[SrsName]

I don't agree with Clefable to S at the moment. I agree that it's a good mon and it's an amazing glue and really reliable stealth rock setter.
Even though I like using it I feel like the hype surrounding it is kind of slowing down though. The soft boiled + wish set in particular has been the reason it got back to glory but lately it makes teams pretty passive and slow in a metagame full of HO teams that are not really forgiving on passive balance. Yes it reliably sets up rocks but so do tons of mons in the current meta. In the meanwhile your opponent can switch in a threat and set up while Clefable can't do anything back a lot of times. It's other job in wishpassing I also feel like it struggles a bit because if it switches in on an attack it often is pressured to soft boil directly to keep the ability to switch in which in turn makes it unable to pass a wish afterwards lots of times.

The cm sets I think are currently pretty interesting but suffer from all the strong breakers running around and people being well prepared on slow set-up Mons because of reuniclus at the moment.

It's still an amazing mon but just feels a bit too slow in this high pressure meta right now to be S-rank in my opinion.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

lol the echo chamber in here is huge oml. Anyway, I am safe, i am free, and I am here with another nom for C rank. FYI - a few of you haters seem to think that I nom exclusively c- mons even though nearly every single of them are no longer in that rank..... soo????????????????? AND LETS NOT FORGET, that when I nommed mons for anything other than C- rank, I was explicitly told to bring it down to C- b/c "that's how we do things." so i mean...... keep on hating.

Alright so i am nominating Empoleon from UR->C

This mon not only has a unique typing of steel and water being the only one with this combo, its resistances and special bulk are nothing short of incredible. You can even run offensive - which is what I do - or have agility +SPA berry + torrent and use it as a sweeper. It is really bulky. Lets do an overview shall we, empoleon is a water/steel mon with the spread of 84/86/88/111/101/60. That 111 spa can be extremely powerful especially when paired with torrent. It obviously gets scald/hydro/surf/hydro cannon but it also gets ice beam, grass knot, stealth rock, defog, toxic, roar, knock off, REST, whirlpool, eq, Swords dance and drill peck. I cannot recommend the physical set as I have no used it however I have used offensive grass knot, ice beam and the utility knock off and it is amazing. the knock off can be key. If you go offensive - which is my style, sash is ur friend and you can pick up an insane amount of torrent kills. for example surf with oko mega lopunny & thats actually moderately thicc. Its also important to keep in midn that not many things rn can oko empoleon if u run hp or go really bulky. but u can for sure set up rocks, toxic them, annoy them, burn them etc if u go defensive. For those of you that use broken tapus you can even try out empoleon + bulu as they compliment each other and cover the weaknesses; i ran offensive for both and it was insane the synergy they had. Sweeping empoleon can be dangerous too just have to get the right set up and boom. The downside is that ur a water mon that doesnt resist fire and ur defense is lackluster but ur resistances are high and special side is good enough to make up for it. its time for the emperor penguin to rise.

Theres honestly no need for a relevant wall of calcs this time and tbh ive used this mon for three years do I really have to put videos? If so ill post em but lets get one of my fav mons ranked!

Edit - fine but all my replays are one dimensional since i use it as a suicide lead /emergency check, and i never save replays :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-765211682
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-370806 ---- For ur tour bangwagoners its even used in tour v. finch
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-776380354
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-776205249
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-775005735
reliable rock setter - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-774556798
its presence can be hella annoying - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-774558597
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-774502745 - i lost this but it did really well
just a general nuisance - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-774005895
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-773958881 - king emp
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-773316898
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-766902719

 

[MFJK]

Hello everyone! I haven't posted in this thread in a while and with the last update I figured I'd drop some thoughts on here. The matagame has changed quite a bit since OLT has started and the discussion points are pretty interesting to me. So, without further ado, I'll start by giving my thoughts on discussion points, as well as other noms.

- So, we're starting off with M-Lopunny which is an interesting one, at least to me. I am personally in favor of it dropping although I don't think it's as bad as people are trying to make it seem like it is. It's actually a pretty good pokemon on offense, with the ladder being infested of offensive teams it has a rather good matchup against, especially when paired with hazards support. Ojama even qualified with it. Personally, I like using it with Encore to annoy stuffs like Reuniclus and Clefable. Now, the reason why I think it should is that, with OLT reaching theough its end and Snake and OLT playoffs coming soon, the metagame is probably gonna change and possibly come back to one where Balance is the most dominant and although Lopunny won't be useless in this meta, it will struggle a lot more at breaking through teams. I think we'll need to wait and see if OLT trends will make the meta one that favors Lopunny. But it is more likely for it to end up in B.

- Clefable is imo, a case similar to Lopunny's. The OLT metagame isn't one that really favors Clefable and as a consequence, Balance isn't as common and the ones that are ran which are generally Reuni + Pex type of teams generally don't want to fit Clefable in since it doesn't match up that well against the most common teams. However, OLT playoffs and Snake are coming soon and the meta is likely to come back to one where Balance reigns and Clefable is pretty much a staple in those, as the last few months have sufficiently shown. Now, is the rising Offense gonna keep rising and become the most dominant playstyle? Are Reuni + Pex balances (which typically don't run Clef, at least not in the ones that I've seen being used extensively) gonna outshadow Clef Balance? These are questions we'll need to wait and see how the meta evolves in order to answer them but I think that if Clefable is still a staple on Balance, then it will be able to go to S rank as it has pretty much hit a level of dominance similar to Heatran's or Lando's as countless posts on here can relate to.

- Suicune is a pokemon I already touched on in my last post on here and my opinion hasn't changed since then. I am still in favor of it dropping as it simply isn't a mon I would see myself use on a team because of the many metagame trends that are mostly going against it: the rise of Bulu, M-Latias, and more recently Serperior and Offense teams it generallly has a bad matchup against, are all trends that go against Suicune and it can't even beat Stall since people have been starting to run Pyukumuku more on it, who can stall it out of pps with Spite + Rest or simply Taunt it.

- Ever since USM dropped, Mantine has been on a constant fall from grace and it dropping to C+ is just a continuation of that. Much like poekmons like Keldeo, Mantine keeps on dropping as the metagame isn't kind to it. Mantine is also a really passive pokemon which means that everytime it will come in, it will make you lose momentum which most teams can't afford to risk, especially with some powerful breakers being on the rise right now. Most balance teams will prefer running Tornadus-T as their defogger because it has much more offensive presence, the ability to check Grass-types like Bulu and Kart, and has the ability to generate momentum thanks to U-turn and if it's not running it, it can run Taunt or Toxic to annoy bulkier stuffs.

- M-Slowbro is a mon I also touched on in my last post and although I don't have as much experience with this mon, I can say from the few games I've seen it being used in that this mon definitely got better. The 3 Attacks / 2 Attacks + Thunder Wave sets especially are pretty good in the meta. M-Slowbro's fantastic physical bulk allows it to safely counter mons like Zygarde and M-Medicham and the coverage helps it to threaten mons like M-Latios as well. With Thunder Wave, it can even cripple pokemons like Greninja and M-Alakazam thinking they can safely switch-in on it. Not much else to say about this mon, it's pretty good, similarly to 3 Attacks M-Latias. Rise it to B-.

- Now, dropping Tyranitar is a nomination I am personally against, because even though some metagame trends are going against it such as Steelium Tran being ran more commonly, it is still a prime choice to check pokemons like Tornadus-T (non-Superpower), M-Lati@s and Reuniclus, providing amazing utility in a lot of teams, and is quite a versatile pokemon, with Band, Scarf, and AV (which can even trap M-Alakazam) being its main sets and are useful against different mons depending on the team; and I don't think these metagame trends should stop it because of that. It's simply too much of a useful mon, and HOs (against which it isn't that bad btw) being common shouldn't be the main reason for it to drop, especially since OLT is ending soon.

- I agree with the pink blob rising because of how good Stall is in this metagame and it rising should be reflecting that. Not only that but Chansey can work on other types of teams such as p2's Ditto-Torn team. There really isn't much to say about this mon, it's just stupid and should rise.

- Yeah, Quagsire should rise because Pyukumuku is the main Unaware user on Stall, which provides much more utility than Quag, and those two mons shouldn't be at a same rank. Quagsire should drop to separate it from Pyukumuku.

- Hippowdon is a monI would be fine with it staying or rising but if it were to rise, it woud be because, just like Chansey, this pokemon should rise because of the utility it provides to Stall in stealth rocks and checking dangerous physical pokemons like Zygarde, Gliscor, Lando, and M-Mawile among others, an Electric-immunity, as well as a phazer which is super useful against dangerous sweepers. It can also run Ice Fang in order to better check Zygarde and stuffs. Its usage also isn't restricted to Stall and some balance teams can use it effectively, such as one that Hayburner has been spamming this cycle. However, these are still fat teams but that isn't much of an issue for it.

- What I'm gonna say about Avalugg is mainly what my friend Gross Sweep said about it. Basically, this mon has a good niche on Stall and is ranked along with Buzzwole and Moltres, and the question is: Is it better than those to actually deserve a rise over them? In my opinion, if it's going to rise, it should be along Moltres and Buzzwole for their niche on Stall. Otherwise, I think it should stay in C-.

- Terrakion is a similar case to Mantine since although it can be really strong in some matchups, I would simply not see myself using it on a team over other Fighting-type wallbreakers because of its obvious flaws and metagame trends that aren't favoring it. I don't think it should be ranked along with pokemons like Tapu Fini which have a much stronger niche in the meta and should thus, drop one or two subranks.

- Crawdaunt is a really fun mon to use and I support its rise here. It's a really strong wallbreaker with it's Adaptability-boosted stabs which allow it to break through most fat teams, and also has tools against offense in priority Aqua-Jet. One of it's notable appearances is on Mimolette's team which peaked number one in the ladder.

~
​

Alright so I'm done with the discussion points and I'm a bit tired of writing so I'll just talk briefly about some other noms I wanted to talk about. I agree with

rising to S rank because it's one of the most dominant threats in the metagame that can beat many of its checks with different sets, and this versatility puts him above the cut. People started running Curse Sciz and Acid Armor Reuni to counter it and it started running Dragon Tail on DD sets which is just an example of how it adapts to whatever metagame it's in.

rising is also something I agree with because it's pretty good against some metagame threats atm such as Gyarados and Swampert. Most people don't run Defog anymore on it which means it can run both Will-O-Wisp and Pain Split to check stuffs more reliably.

and

are two really interesting mons I've had a lot of fun building and playing with and I would like to see both of them rise to B+ and B respectively. People stretch their niche only in HO when they're actually pretty good on other types of teams like BO mainly. Another mon I would like to see rising is

as it's a really cool mon to check mons like Torn-T which is being spammed on ladder, as well as Lati@s and Reuni, similarly to its non-mega counterpart but also provides rocks support and lately I've been seeing it used a lot on Reuni-Pex teams mainly.

So that's it for my post. Thanks for reading it and I hope I brought some good discussion to this thread.

 

[We Three Kings]

I don't see how Clefable is S. Wish is cool and all, but Mawile+Heatran meta is not friendly to it. You don't check anything outside of maybe Zygarde particularly well, and CM sets are niche compared to ORAS. I believe it is too passive for the OLT meta, and a clear step below Heatran in terms of usefulness throughout all the archetype matchups. SR Clefable is pretty equal in viability between SM and ORAS, and despite Wish being awesome, ORAS Bold Clef catches a far greater spectrum of threats defensively.

I read the last page of nominations in this thread and I think it's ridiculous that people want to rise Clefable and Zygarde to S rank when there's a clearly better Pokemon in the same subranking.


Ash-Greninja is the best Pokemon in the metagame, and should be moved up to S rank.

 

[blank]

clefable isn't S rank material.

it's hilariously slow and passive, and not in the defensive powerhouse way that toxapex was where it checks a million things in the tier and provides utility and never dies due to that amazing bulk + regenerator. clefable's defensive stats mostly allow it to barely live crucial attacks in comparison, such as vs. cb zygarde where tarrows can potentially 2hko lol. a lot of really powerful mons like mega mawile and heatran can just come in for free vs it, and getting these two in is really big, especially in mawile's case since vs. so many teams it's "bring it in and get a kill" and the main reason it isn't broken is because it's not the easiest thing to get in... but clefable let's it in for free LOL. it's a good glue mon, but it isn't some metagame defining glue mon like landorus-t or heatran... it's more like ferrothorn (honestly below ferrothorn if you ask me) in that it provides really nice utility and bulk. definitely an A+ mon, but S is SERIOUSLY pushing it.

also i see some posts in here talking about the "OLT metagame" as reason to drop kingdra and mega lopunny and i think this is just silly. in the OLT thread you have ojama posting a team with mega lopunny + greninja saying it was reliable to ladder with and whatnot. one person alone shouldn't be enough to push a mon up, but i don't think mega lopunny should under the premise that "OLT meta doesn't favor it" since it clearly has its pros and cons. kingdra, on the other hand, seems to be MORE frequently used on rains than before. it's still not good, but it doesn't make sense to drop it when it's probably seeing higher usage on rains now than before .-.

i alluded to it above, but i think mega mawile is insanely good. it comes in on clefable pretty reliably, and it can come in vs. the more common than ever bulu and protean gren under certain situations. yeah, it takes damage and all, but it really only needs to come in a few times to put huge holes in an opponent's team. also, a lot of pivots that bring it in no problem make it even easier to use now than ever before. you have scarf landorus-t being so dominant and splashable, bulky and flyz tornadus-t both being AMAZING pivots that just last a long time thanks to regenerator, and things like rotom-w and u-turn 4th move protean gren gaining traction. these all act as amazing ways to get mawile in, in addition to it being able to come in vs more stuff than previously on its own. pex usage is also lower, making sd sets a bit more practical since you can usually sd up pretty easily once you get in on something. i remember in the past i really hated sd sets cause even though sd knock off does a TON to pex, you had to find the opportunity to set up before you could go for it. it's a lot easier to set up now + pex is less common, giving the sd / sucker / pr / knock set so much more flexibility. i haven't been playing around with 4 attacks or suckerless sets as of lately since the standard sd set is just so good. also since you don't need the max (or near max) attack as much as previously, you can run extra bulk now, making mawile able to even more reliably switch in vs some things. also it feels like most ppl still rely on tran + landorus-t to beat maw when you can just deal tons to these on switch in (if they do... if not then you probably are killing something else LOL) or just wear them down over time. these two have never been particularly hard to wear down outside of specially defensive protect tran (annoying af with bulu support), and maw can just roll right past them with proper prediction and/or a little bit of prior damage, ESPECIALLY given how a lot of these trans are 0 hp. i've been trying to use my own teams with this thing, but building SM gives me panic attacks, so i've been using that ABR team. even with tran switch in rotom-w and 164 attack EVs mawile i find myself able to wear down and break past tran with no problems vs. players of similar or higher caliber than myself. this pokemon is just insanely dumb, especially if you are willing to make BIG READS with it. A+ material imo.

there's some other stuff i want to comment on, but i don't really have much to say. i still think zygarde should be S rank for the reasons i had previously posted + the reasons a lot of good people have mentioned itc. it's super dominant and has a million sets like ffs people are running cb resttalk now and resttalk sets in general have gained a ton of traction making zyg a pretty reliable heatran answer. rotom-w should probably rise given its prevalence this OLT, especially in how it handles rain and gyarados and supports breakers like mega mawile. i also still think options like z hydro and/or toxic have their place and are a bit underrated right now... the defensive set is probably the best given what it handles in the current meta though. tapu bulu should definitely be in A+ rank. it's sooo dominant right now, especially with the specially defensive sd set. it requires very little support and it provides a ton of utility. it's like such a perfectly balanced and easy to use pokemon. really pushes the whole "bulky offense is great" thing right now. i think blacephalon should be in B rank. we went from thinking it'd be really good early SM to thinking it's trash because nobody wanted to build with it. well now people are building with it and using it throughout OLT, and it's clear it's a pretty niche pokemon that benefits from matchup, but it's not some total gimmick or anything. i think currently it's about on par with other offensive stuff in B rank like mega heracross and mega charizard x, as well as gimmicky stuff like victini.

TL;DR: don't raise clef, keep kingdra and mega lopunny where they are, mega mawile -> A+, zygarde -> S, rotom-w -> B+, tapu bulu -> A+, blacephalon -> B.

edit: also if zygarde doesn't rise again, i'd really appreciate hearing a council member's explanation as to why council believes it shouldn't rise. i don't mean that in a hurr durr lemme challenge your authority type of way, just curious because a lot of people i talk to seem to think zygarde is one of the best pokemon in the tier by far, including myself.

 

[Ske]

I don't see how Clefable is S. Wish is cool and all, but Mawile+Heatran meta is not friendly to it. You don't check anything outside of maybe Zygarde particularly well, and CM sets are niche compared to ORAS. I believe it is too passive for the OLT meta, and a clear step below Heatran in terms of usefulness throughout all the archetype matchups. SR Clefable is pretty equal in viability between SM and ORAS, and despite Wish being awesome, ORAS Bold Clef catches a far greater spectrum of threats defensively.

I read the last page of nominations in this thread and I think it's ridiculous that people want to rise Clefable and Zygarde to S rank when there's a clearly better Pokemon in the same subranking.


Ash-Greninja is the best Pokemon in the metagame, and should be moved up to S rank.

I agree with Clefable staying at A+ rank, But saying Ash Greninja deserves S rank more than Zygarde, I completely disagree with, Ash greninja while it is very very good ATM it is not as centralizing as Zygarde. Zygarde has very little counterplay & even its really solid answers can be muscled through (Tangrowth with Spdef Rest Talk, Toxic Banded, Banded Rest Talk with T-Spikes Support) Scizor gets heavily pressured by Banded Glare while rocks are up and the ever so popular Curse set loses to DD D-Tail which is rising on HO style teams, Zygarde has so many sets & about 80% of its sets are very effective at what they do, Ash Greninja while very effective is very linear once u figure out its set & S rank mons are usually a place for extremely versatile Pokemon (Which Ash Greninja is not) or the face of a playstyle (Which Greninja is not). I know Ash Greninja is good right now but mons such as Spdef Tapu Bulu & Toxapex & Tangrowth handle it pretty well and consistantly and even if spikes go up they can still check ash greninja pretty well unlike zygarde which is much more threatening since its so versatile. If you have a good remover such as Torn which is very easy to put on teams and very good atm u can elliviate this even more. Ash Greninja stomps the HO that is spammed right now but Zygarde has so much versatility and has sets that are good vs every playstyle including Hyper Offense, While I do think Ash Greninja is the best mon in A+ & Ash Greninja rising isn't a bad idea I do not think Ash Greninja should be ranked higher than Zygarde as this is downplaying Zygarde honestly.
Keep Ash Greninja in A+

Also take it from a user with a RMT coming soon with both of these Pokemon :]

Astroworld Coming Soon

 

[power]

clef shouldnt go to s. it was s rank worthy when i originally nommed it nearly 3 months ago back in may, and it was probably s rank worthy up until early to mid july. however the metagame has clearly shifted against clefable and you see that in the number of balances forgoing it. abusing wish is much much much easier than it was back in may. the window to move clef to s passed a month ago, theres no reason to move it to s in the current meta at all

edit: also agree with lasse ash gren is stupidly good and olt just keeps showing us that. ice beam is also a surprisingly viable pick as cpg webs has shown and ash gren is a total terror at the moment. it might just be the current meta but asking to move ash gren to s is totally reasonable

 

[paoisd]

YES ASH GRENINJA TO S -> SUPER AGREE
I've been wanting to say this for so long but I felt like it would be super frowned upon if I did say that but I think it really deserves it. So many teams only have one check to gren, be it tangrowth, tapu bulu, etc. Gren can just put up a spike on these checks and eventually for most of them he'll only need one dark pulse flinch to kill them and then he just kind of wins the game. Water shuriken is also amazing for him as it alleviates the need to have a scarfer on a lot of teams. He benifits from things like AV magearna and ferrothorn being relatively low in usage, especially mag, it's possibly best check. Ash gren beats prety much all of the S and A+ mons and it also super appreciates the amount of HO because it is arguably the best pokemon in the whole meta against HO. Please rise this thing

also i wanna agree with heracross up. it is super bulky and strong so it can always do stuff against balance and stall while in other matchups it should probably be able to get at least one kill a game. it should really rise.

 

[Dreadfury]

I'm gonna try to provide my own take on why Ash-Greninja should remain A+. I do agree that it is easily one of the most threatening things in the metagame, but I firmly believe it isn't even remotely on the level of Lando-T, Heatran, Zygarde (which should be S even though it criminally isn't), or even Clefable (which I'm starting to agree shouldn't be S anymore, although it's easily one of the best things in A+), but there are a couple things holding Ash-Greninja back from being one of the versatile juggernauts Lando-T, Heatran, and Zygarde happen to be, or the queen of role compression Clefable is:

The first thing I want to note about Ash-Greninja is that it's extremely good at the thing it does happen to do. Water Shuriken is a fantastic move and it gives offensive teams an absolute headache, its STABs give it some insane firepower (which is partly why it has eclipsed Kingdra as Rain Offense's dedicated special attacker of choice, since it 2HKOs literally everything that isn't immune to Hydro Pump entirely under rain, and it forces enough switches to where it can comfortably stack up Spikes. I don't think anybody can deny that Ash-Greninja's ability to compress a wallbreaker, Spike setter, and lategame cleaner makes it incredibly dangerous. Likewise, it definitely has some other options (like Ice Beam) to hit some of its would-be checks and counters. However, that's really all Ash-Greninja does.

S is reserved for versatile threats like Lando-T and Heatran, which can run upwards of five or six different sets, can fulfill an assortment of roles - often in one set, such as Heatran being a bulky user of Stealth Rock and a powerful Stallbreaker or Lando-T being able to function as a pivot and/or wallbreaker, hazard setter, or revenge killer - and which centralize the metagame around them by providing both potent defensive synergy with much of the tier. Alternatively, S is reserved for threats that, while very linear in what they do, are the figureheads of a particular playstyle and/or perform their role(s) so effectively that they eclipse any form of competition, such as Toxapex while it was still S, or Naganadel while it was busy blowing its blue and purple loads on everything not named Assault Vest Tyranitar or Heatran. Ash-Greninja certainly isn't compressing both offensive and utility roles as well as the likes of Heatran and Landorus-T, it isn't the extraordinarily overwhelming offensive force Naganadel was (though, again, it's very good), and it definitely isn't the nigh-indestructible defensive behemoth old Toxapex was. It doesn't boast the versatility Zygarde and Lando-T have, and its pathetic bulk and lackluster defensive typing also don't do it any favors when so many things it boasts an immunity to carry Focus Blast or a Fairy-type move anyway.

Another thing Ash-Greninja lacks is immediate firepower. If Battle Bond just straight-up gave Ash Greninja those fantastic stats with no drawbacks, I could definitely see it being S if not outright banworthy. But the fact of the matter is, Ash-Greninja needs to land a kill before it actually becomes Ash-Greninja, and that means you're not running a Protean Greninja that, by virtue of its fantastic ability and Greninja's naturally-expansive movepool, can quite literally pick and choose its checks and counters and hits substantially harder without its main Dark and Water STABs (since, you know... everything becomes STAB anyway). Ash-Greninja often finds itself far, far more strapped for moveslots and this often means you're dealing with a Greninja without a relevant ability until it lands a kill. That lack of immediate firepower gives it quite a few rising checks and counters - Magearna, Tapu Bulu, etc., none of which are anything short of fantastic in this meta) and forces it out quite easily.

Finally, though it absolutely can muscle past its checks and counters, Ash-Greninja usually has to rely on RNG to do so. Hydro Pump isn't the most accurate thing in the world and Dark Pulse, while strong on its own, only threatens with the potential for a flinch (though that's terrifying in its own right). This in tandem with Ash-Greninja's reliance on landing crucial kills in order to transform and gain the crazy stat boosts it needs to be a true terror leave it rather inconsistent at times. You have to rely on something with only decent firepower early on, and having to rely on Hydro Pump to land crucial kills can often turn it into a sitting duck (or, potentially, just cannon fodder) should it miss. This shouldn't be nearly as big of a deal as it is - after all, Heatran's Magma Storm is notorious for missing when you really don't want it to - but something that has the offensive prowess to be in S should generally threaten you from the word go. I'd even go so far as to argue that half of what makes Ash-Greninja so terrifying is that one turn is all it needs to surprise you by being Protean and just slapping you with one of its billions of powerful coverage options, Z-moves, etc. and killing what it wants to kill. I'm of the mindset that the two Greninjas should always be ranked near-identically because that first turn of sheer uncertainty is all one of them needs to do some serious damage, and I'm of the mindset that both, while fantastic, are just that: fantastic. Not S-level fantastic, but fantastic.

Ultimately, I get it. Ash-Greninja is good. Very good. It's a great countermeasure to the rising Hyper Offense and it finds its way onto a great many archetypes. Its first attack is often the only turn it needs to do some damage, especially if it's actually not Ash-Greninja and you thought it was, or if it's actually not Protean and you thought it was. But I don't think it compresses enough roles, or is overwhelming enough in the offensive department (because let's face it, this thing's about as durable as a wet paper packet), to find its way into S. Therefore, A+ is where I'd argue Ash-Greninja should remain.

 

[NotInMyChristianServer]

Ash-Greninja to S: Disagree
Ash-Gren may be a fearsome wallbreaker, spike setter and a good Anti-Offense mon with Water Shuriken, but it lacks "that special" that Lando, Heatran and Zygarde have. And by "that special", I mean versability. You cannot just make 3 different viable Ash-Gren sets, 'cause:​

• A) Unlike all three aformentioned mons, the overrated ninja frog lack any defensive utility outside being a solid scald & Mega Lati@s switchin. Heatran is a switchin for Fire, Psychic, Dragon and Fairy attacks, Lando has two crucial inmunities (Ground and Electric) and Intimidate, and Zyg is one of the better Heatran switchins, can make 101 substitutes, access to ResTalk and a Electric inmunity. ​
• B) Role Compression. Heatran can be a hazard setter, stallbreaker, defensive backbone, a Psychic and Dragon lure (Steelium Z) and a Toxic User, Lando is (or can be) a switchin for like pretty much every physical attacker in the tier barring Weavile, Mega Swampert on rain and the uncommon Crawdaunt & Crabominable, a Volt switch blocker, a hazard controller (either setting or removing them), a pivot, a suicide lead or a wallbreaker with SD+Z move sets. Zyg is pretty much Lando, being more of a sweeper, stallbreaker (Restalk/substitute) and an Anti-Offense mon with Espeed than a pivot. Ash-Gren can only act as a Wallbreaker, Spike setter and sweeper, like it was listed before.​
• C) Flexibility in moveslots. Ash-Gren cannot afford forgoin even one move, since Spike allows him pressuring via punishing switches, Water Pump and Dark Pulse are pretty much mandatory because they're his stronger STAB moves, and Water Shuriken let it pressure faster, frail threats like Scarf Kartana & Blace, +1 Volcarona (if weakened enough), etc. and also being a reliable Water move. If you forgo Dark Pulse for Extrasensory to lure Toxapex, then Mega Latias walls you. Ice beam lets you remove slower Dragons and hit Flying types hard, but then Pex walls you. HP Fire? You wreck Ferro and M-Scizor, but then Pex and Dragons put an roadblock to you. If you forgo Spikes, then you are giving away actual support for another breaker just to lure Pex, Ferro and/or Bulu. S rank mons and Zyg doesn't have this problem, since their roles demand less moves to work (you only need Magma Storm, Epower and Taunt to succesfully trap Pex, Chansey & Clef, prevent Defog and steel still having offensive presence, and Tarrows hit everything bar Grass and Bug, letting Zyg enough moveslots to run both a boosting move and Utility like Glare or Restalk).​
• So, long story short, Ash-Greninja isn't S rank material, at least imo. Is a dominant force in the metagame, yes, but it lack the versatility most mons on S rank tend to have. Keep it in A+​

 

[1_TrickPhony]

Sorry if I'm breaking any rules by mentioning this, but is now not a particularly great time to potentially bring back the S- rank? We have been arguing back and forth on several mons, whether they deserve S or not, and all that has come out of it (aside from the Heatran to S, thank god for that) is that we have a bunch of mons in A+ that seem really out of place considering their effect on the metagame, but putting them in S seems like we would have to redefine what we believe a "S" mon to be.

Here is how I would see that unfold, were we to bring back S-

S: Tran, Lando, (Zygarde)
S-: (Zygarde), Ash Gren, Clef,
Up to A+: Magearna, Bulu

This puts 2/3 mons in S, 2/3 in S-, and replaces the mons stripped from A+ with two very worthy rises from A+. Again, this makes us have to reconsider a lot in the tier by bringing back S-, but I think it helps move away from the opinions of what goes where and gives a better idea to the VR users what kinds of mons are defining playstyles ATM.

I'd also like to put some of my opinions on mons recently discussed, and add 1 more opinion, but I will stay away from Zygarde and Clef since those have been discussed for the past 50 pages of this thread.

Ash-Greninja to S: Disagree. This is a clear example of a metagame trend bringing it to the forefront where it can shine, but if we put it to S we will find out very quickly it doesnt have staying power there. Against offense, Ash-Greninja might be one of the best in the game, because its priority beats out the most common and best scarfer, and its raw speed beats out almost all the rest. However, as soon it gets placed into an S rank, it will get hated out by the very splashable Bulu, Pex, and Tang as the meta shifts to combat it and drop it back down, and if it doesn't transform, it performs like an A- at best mon. You may say "its better than A+ right now", and I'd agree, which is why a reinstated S- may make sense.

Reuniclus to A-: YES. Acid armor sets are sweeping teams left and right that don't have any special attacking support. Toxic spikes makes the mon nearly unstoppable on a team that gives it space to shine. It also works at so many ladder levels, A- may be underselling it but seems like a bare minimum.

If we bring back S-, Lando T to S-: Not a agree or disagree, but I would consider moving Lando down to it. Too many mons can take advantage of its passiveness, and the only really potent offensive set rn, skystrike, is a one time nuke that can be scouted surprisingly easy, especially with Bulu's running protect nowadays. Ice beam on any mon kills it. Its Scarf set is still wowsers level of good, which is why I wouldn't say "I believe Lando-T should be S-), and I'm not a high level player, but I would want people to tell me why it wouldn't fit in nicely if we created an S- tier.

 

[KztxL7]

There is no reason to bring it back. Especially considering how recently it was removed. It existed because Lando-T was absurdly dominant that the gap between S to A+ was impossible to cross when comparing anything to Lando-T.

That gap doesn't exist particularly when looking at the current A+ and S and most likely won't exist for the foreseeable future. There really is no reason to talk about it beyond this point.

 

[volx757]

If we bring back S-, Lando T to S-: Not a agree or disagree, but I would consider moving Lando down to it. Too many mons can take advantage of its passiveness, and the only really potent offensive set rn, skystrike, is a one time nuke that can be scouted surprisingly easy, especially with Bulu's running protect nowadays. Ice beam on any mon kills it. Its Scarf set is still wowsers level of good, which is why I wouldn't say "I believe Lando-T should be S-), and I'm not a high level player, but I would want people to tell me why it wouldn't fit in nicely if we created an S- tier.

Lando-t is anything but passive. The reason for his dominance that past few years is that he's an incredibly designed defensive pokemon (2 weaknesses, 3 resistances, 2 immunities, intimidate, solid natural bulk) that also happens to have incredible offensive capabilities. These traits combined with a large movepool and a very customizable EV spread mean that you can get lando to do practically anything you want short of being a special attacker or sponge. You mention that ice beam from any mon kills it, and I'll add that it's speed tier is only decent, but these are literally the two things that hold it back from being broken and banned. Double dance is still a fine offensive option, along with rock-z, sash, you can fuck with ground-z or earth plate if you want, there's gravity sets, smack down sets, it just has so many many sets. It's the most splashable mon in the tier in that it can switch in on the vast majority of physical attacks from literally anyone and retaliate with *something* useful, whatever it may be in the situation.

starry blanket said it best so i'll just echo clef isn't S material because it's easily overwhelemed and saps momentum against every steel, and Mmaw is a monster worthy of a rise. but i also don't think ash gren is S rank material either. It feels pretty matchup dependent to me whether or not it sweeps. Many teams have a counter or very solid check for it's base form and can keep it from bonding with smart play. olt and ho rises right at the end of the ladder part of olt don't make sense. if we're gonna rise mons for certain cycles why don't we do it when the mon is actually at it's peak, not 2 months later (or whenever next vr update is).

 

[Vengeance417]

I also have to disagree with Clef rising to S. It's a fantastic mon, no doubt about that, and is easily the best rocker in the tier, but many of the mons it's supposed to check can easily overwhelm it after taking the smallest amount of chip, such as Banded/Steelium Zygarde, Mega Medicham, Mega Latios, Mega DD/Banded Tyranitar, and SubZero Kyurem-B just to name a few.

 

[Scuba Diver]

Nominating Kommo-o from UR to C+ (or C)

I'm bad at this game so I'll just credit Lopunny Kicks' team and show some high level replays first

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-787745961
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-787515397
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-786976156

I think it's very obviously time to rank Kommo-o for its merit on HO, specifically webs (I don't think it's nearly as good on veil squads). I think Kommo-o puts intense pressure on the opponent to scout its set; we're well past early SM where you could just send your fairy type or Lando brainlessly into this thing. It has access to a plethora of set up moves like Dragon Dance, Work Up, Belly Drum, Swords Dance, Bulk Up and Clangorous Soulblaze. Soulblaze is really quite scary and the threat of it (regardless of if it is on your moveset) can make your opponent misplay. The fact it goes through substitutes is situationally useful for killing these cancerous sub glare Zygardes and Serperiors. Kommo-o also has a gigantic movepool, I'm not going to list it out but seriously, It has everything. It can absolutely flatten all the frail fairies in the tier with Poison Jab (also nice for Tang who can't do anything to you), break through Pex with Thunder Punch Belly Drum and so on. It's extremely, extremely customizable (picks its checks) and I don't think we've properly experimented with all its possible sets and techs yet (clef lures could be fun). It's one of the few real mixed attackers in the tier.

Kommo-o defensively checks Ash-Greninja which is huge for HO, which typically struggles against it without Mega-Gyarados. It also can check Blacephalon from its typing + bulletproof. Speaking of bulletproof, Kommo-o makes Ferrothorn a huge liability if you're running sub Belly Drum. Naive/Jolly outspeeds Adamant Zygarde (Zygarde is Adamant 97% of the time). I think this mon can easily stand next to stuff like Marowak and Azumaril in C+, it's a real threat that brings useful offensive and defensive traits to HO.

Sets

Dragon Dance Kommonium

Kommo-o @ Kommonium Z
Ability: Bulletproof
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Clanging Scales
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
- Dragon Dance

Sub Salac

Kommo-o @ Salac Berry
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 36 HP / 220 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Belly Drum
- Thunder Punch / Poison Jab
- Drain Punch

 

[Daikessen]

Buzzwole: C- to C at least

If zygarde is going to rise to S then there's no reason why one of the best (and most underrated) physical walls in the tier should rise too. Buzz checks pretty much every relevant Zygarde set, with the ones most threatening to it (Z-Outrage and Toxic sets) still having some counterplay with Roost + Lefties recovery. Access to Ice Punch sets it apart from Curse Scizor as a check, as well as STAB Drain Punch for additional recovery while still being able to break subs after a boost.

Other than that Buzz is just a solid phys wall in itself. Checks non-flyinium Lando, Chomp without fire blast, Bulu, Kartana, M-Gyarados, M-Scizor, Mamoswine, Bisharp, Weavile, Ttar, Excadrill - only M-Medi, Zard-X, M-Pinsir and Hawlucha threaten it and such, it's a good mon that does a lot with 4 moves. Its coverage is pretty good as well: Earthquake for le smogon urchin, Thunder Punch for bulky waters, Leech Life, Lunge, Poison Jab etc.

EDIT: Just wanted to show this sick replay of Buzz taking on TWO flying types and cleaning late game
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-792163329