Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

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Mega Scizor: A- --> B+
Disagree

I disagree with the idea of a Mega Scizor drop because of its ability to handle the highly popular and dangerous Psychic-types as well as other threats like offensive Magearna and Kartana, which are surging in popularity currently. Knock Off is a bigger boon than some are implying. A Heatran, Toxapex, Rotom-W, and or Celesteela getting Knocked Off can change games and how the opponent has to approach the Scizor user and its partners. Hell, U-Turn sets with Magnezone still pop up as they give great pivoting support and Magnezone itself is great at the moment. We can also see supporting Scizor has been becoming easier with its common partners like Garchomp and Tapu Fini oozing in viability at the moment. While Magnezone, Zapdos, and the like are certainly not entirely positive for Scizor in the current metagame, its ability to handle surging threats like PsySpam, Kartana, and Magearna along with the support it brings through Knock Off or even U-Turn pivoting makes it worthy of its current spot as an A-. Most of the Pokemon that are sited as reasons for Scizor to drop save Magnezone and Zapdos haven't even increased in usage that drastically overall. Many Pokemon Scizor does check, like Kartana and Tapu Lele, have actually increased in use, which is a boon for it and shows the metagame is trending in a direction thats a net positive for it. Scizor is on par with most A- Pokemon like Gliscor and Reuniclus and perhaps better than other ones like Chansey, as its more splashable and takes less overall work to support.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-443567
This smogon tour playoffs game between SoulWind and Gondra shows how Scizor can support its teammates through its pivoting support and how it utterly walls Magearna, Mega Latias, and Tapu Lele, eventually leading to it to win late-game.

EDIT: Just because there are other Knock Off users doesn't mean Scizor isn't justified in its A- position. Sure, Mawile and Torn are better Pokemon on the whole that happen to use Knock Off but they do different things. Mawile is a more offensive Steel-type with not nearly the same defensive utility while Tornadus has a different role as a strictly a pivot that Defogs to check things like Kartana and Landorus. Plus, the logic in general is off. As an example, you can say Landorus is a better Stealth Rock setter than Garchomp and Kommo-o. But that's not a good reason to drop them in itself. They do different things beyond the surface level of setting rocks.
 
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M.Scizor A- -> ?

I personally don't have any thoughts, I like M.Scizor on defensive teams, but on more offensive orientated teams I feel its dropped off imo, a few months ago it defiantly deserved to drop I think though. However I would like to point out a few things, since theres seems to be some iffy info. Despite a rise in usage on near all its checks, most notably Toxapex and Magnezone, M.Scizor sees an uptake in usage itself, especially noticeable in tournaments. I think this is because the mons M.Scizor itself checks have seen their own rise in usage too, with Pokemon like Kart, Alakazam, and Magearnas offensive sets all rising.

Also, while Knock Off is a great move for M.Scizor, as Celesteela, Heatran and Rotom-W really hate losing there items, U-Turn has seen a rise in usage compared to knock. I believe this is because, while M.Scizor can cripple these, a lot of the time if they are in the back it just completely stops M.Scizor sweeping until they are defeated, so U-Turn ends up providing more immediate utility, especially for the likes of hard hitters such as Kyurem-B and Hoopa, who are popular teammates.

1825 Ladder April
U-turn 52.914%
Knock Off 40.313%

1825 Ladder May
U-turn 61.203%
Knock Off 35.930%

World Cup Overall
3 | U-turn | 11 | 37.93%
5 | Knock Off | 3 | 10.34%

I don't where the thought that Knock Off variants are more prominent came from, or the fact the Pex hasnt rised in usage, well it has in Tours but not so much ladder. Also Zam isn't a M.Scizor teammate RRahman1, or at least a popular one as since TornTs rise to popularity, regular Alakazam has barely seen any usage at all.
Weeks 7-9 of Smog Tours vs WCop round 1

| 9 | Toxapex | 138 | 16.51% |
| 4 | Toxapex | 75 | 28.85% |

| 6 | Heatran | 183 | 21.89% |
| 5 | Heatran | 70 | 26.92% |

| 13 | Celesteela | 105 | 12.56% |
| 10 | Celesteela | 47 | 18.08% |

| 14 | Rotom-Wash | 103 | 12.32% |
| 11 | Rotom-Wash | 45 | 17.31% |

| 36 | Magnezone | 39 | 4.67% |
| 16 | Magnezone | 31 | 11.92% |

| 21 | Zapdos | 74 | 8.85% |
| 21 | Zapdos | 24 | 9.23% |

| 31 | Charizard | 49 | 5.86% |
| 31 | Charizard | 17 | 6.54% |

| 39 | Victini | 38 | 4.55% |
| 33 | Victini | 14 | 5.38% |


Ladder 1825 Usage stats April vs May

| 15 | Zapdos | 11.18793% |
| 12 | Zapdos | 12.76903% |

| 22 | Celesteela | 8.20394% |
| 22 | Celesteela | 9.09063% |

| 23 | Rotom-Wash | 7.97035% |
| 23 | Rotom-Wash | 8.77584% |

| 39 | Magnezone | 5.04195% |
| 33 | Magnezone | 5.80825% |

| 44 | Volcarona | 4.30952% |
| 32 | Volcarona | 5.97106% |
Weeks 7-9 of Smog Tours vs WCop round 1

| 11 | Kartana | 121 | 14.47% |
| 7 | Kartana | 58 | 22.31% |

| 15 | Tangrowth | 102 | 12.20% |
| 13 | Tangrowth | 41 | 15.77% |

| 27 | Latias | 59 | 7.06% |
| 17 | Latias | 30 | 11.54% |

| 29 | Alakazam | 54 | 6.46% |
| 23 | Alakazam | 23 | 8.85% |

| 43 | Weavile | 33 | 3.95% |
| 33 | Weavile | 14 | 5.38% |


Ladder 1825 Usage stats April vs May

| 5 | Kartana | 18.06925% |
| 5 | Kartana | 19.26891% |

| 18 | Clefable | 10.08426% |
| 13 | Clefable | 10.41312% |

| 25 | Tangrowth | 7.02590% |
| 24 | Tangrowth | 8.26830% |

| 31 | Latias-Mega | 6.08098% |
| 26 | Latias-Mega | 7.84871% |

| 40 | Alakazam-Mega | 4.73521% |
| 41 | Alakazam-Mega | 4.83789% |

| 53 | Reuniclus | 3.50795% |
| 44 | Reuniclus | 4.49963% |

| 58 | Weavile | 2.79491% |
| 52 | Weavile | 3.09013% |


Magearna Set Usage

Assault Vest 37.292%
Fairium Z 16.265%
Leftovers 10.854%
Fightinium Z 6.968%
Iapapa Berry 6.962%
Shuca Berry 6.739%
Electrium Z 5.402%
Choice Scarf 4.018%
Steelium Z 1.870%
Other 3.630%

Assault Vest 33.408%
Fairium Z 21.745%
Leftovers 17.751%
Electrium Z 7.019%
Shuca Berry 5.727%
Fightinium Z 4.372%
Steelium Z 2.528%

Iapapa Berry 2.450%
Other 5.000%

While all other items are vague to what set they are, we can clearly see the rise of usage in most Z moves and the drop in Magearnas AV set
 
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Mega Galade: B- -> B

Ignoring the cool factor, M-Galade is one of the better physical wall breakers right now, at least in my opinion. It is able to outspeed more mons than Medicham and can take more than a light breeze, unlike Lopunny. It is able to beat Kartana and Heatran with ease, heavily pressure Greninja. It destroys the Celepex core, effectively 2HKOing each.
Moreover, it gets the amazing knock off, allowing it to punish switches by removing the item, usually from a defensive mon, a very important attribute, as it can change the game in your favor.
Finally, with 2 great STABs and the ever powerful knock off, there are no really safe switches with the correct prediction, except maybe lando and Lele, but they still doesn’t appreciate knock off. It suffers similar problems to other fighting types, but it is able to take some of the important upsides from other powerful wallbreakers without too many down sides. Its main one being a lack of amazing matchups. However, I think that it counteracts that by having very few bad matchups.
I almost forgot, if it gets up an SD, it can sweep through everything.
 

Srn

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M-Galade is one of the better physical wall breakers right now, at least in my opinion. It is able to outspeed more mons than Medicham and can take more than a light breeze, unlike Lopunny. It is able to beat Kartana and Heatran with ease, heavily pressure Greninja. It destroys the Celepex core, effectively 2HKOing each.
mega gallade: 68/95/115
mega lopunny: 65/94/96

??????

Finally, with 2 great STABs and the ever powerful knock off, there are no really safe switches with the correct prediction, except maybe lando and Lele, but they still doesn’t appreciate knock off. It suffers similar problems to other fighting types, but it is able to take some of the important upsides from other powerful wallbreakers without too many down sides. Its main one being a lack of amazing matchups. However, I think that it counteracts that by having very few bad matchups.
I almost forgot, if it gets up an SD, it can sweep through everything.
Know what else has 2 great stabs? Mega lopunny with scrappy normal/fighting that's completely unresisted!

Cherrypicking aside, I fail to see any reason why mega gallade has gotten any better or was misplaced initially. Its just a slightly bulkier, faster, weaker mega medicham for teams that have trouble with kartana, and in my eyes is a significantly worse mon than mega lop overall (not to say that it is outclassed my mlop, its just a worse mon).

252 Atk Gallade-Mega Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 208-246 (57.3 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 195-231 (53.7 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

its not even especially stronger, it just has access to SD and knock off, which has less worth than 405 speed, unresisted stabs, and access to viable priority.

Ultimately I wouldnt put this mon above zard-y or manaphy, two pokemon that likewise have a high ceiling for wallbreaking but need heavy team support or only fit in specific team archetypes.
 
Not a huge advocate for a M-Gallade rise at the moment because the metagame hasn’t changed much in its favor, but the argument for using it over Mega Lopunny should be that it can break CelePex b/c it doesn’t have to worry about Protect and it has Psychic STAB.

I would also argue M-Gallade is often a better revenger killer than M-Medicham b/c of its speed tier: faster than Kartana, Blacephalon, Garchomp, Keldeo, Char-Y. That being said, I think it fits pretty well next to Char-Y and M-Pinsir at B-
 

Mega Scizor TO STAY IN A-

I think Mega Scizor is fine where it is tbh. Defensively, it's actually really good. Typing + heavy SpD investment makes it one of the few actually solid checks to powerful special attackers like Mega Zam, Tapu lele w/o HP fire, Magearna, Kyurem-B etc. It's a really nice check to grass types such as Tapu Bulu, Tangrowth and most importantly Kartana. I feel like Kartana is as powerful as ever and to have a nice check to both band and scarf kartana is really nice. Being able to check both of these offensive threats in one pokemon is very good. Magnezone is a good check to Scizor but tbh with U-turn Magnezone has a much harder time. If you U-turn to your zone check you get so much momentum. Scarf Zone doesn't OHKO M-Scizor.

Honestly the slow U-turn Mega Scizor provides is similar to AV mag's slow volt switch. It's just so nice to comfortably bring your Specs Lele/Gren on a toxapex/zapdos/etc. to fire off a powerful hit. That's not the only reason you use this mon but it certainly is cool.

Offensively, I think Mega Scizor is actually fantastic right now. It seems like everything is going slower and slower. Heatran runs Modest, Zones are running Specs or Z way more often, and everything else like Tapu Fini and base 100's are only running enough to outspeed Modest Heatran. I've been running Jolly Mega Scizor around with Superpower and Double-Edge (credit to Counting Sheep for this double edge tech) and it's actually so fun and much better than I thought. I outspeed any Heatran that is not Timid, any Zone that is not Scarf, most Zapdos, and Rotom-W. With this, a little bit of help from teammates to weaken things like Zapdos, Toxapex, Rotom-W and M-Scizor can actually comfortably sweep at +2.

I logged on PS and played a couple of games on of my alts and got this game to fully showcase how I got through both Zapdos and Heatran (2 very common Scizor counters) to win the game with Scizor.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-936107882
 
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Zydog UR -> C/C+
I'm not sure if there was a post about this before or not, but I haven't seen one. Zygarde is an underrated threat in today's metagame because teams are not prepared to deal with thousand arrows as they once were. Sure, Zydog has much more cons than its original form; this shit dies to like 2 Landorus u-turns and can't live HP ice from anything, but they still have the same damage output and thousand arrows is still busted as hell. It's not entirely cons though either, 115 speed tier actually allows you to stay in on shit like Medicham, Latis, Kartana, Garchomp, etc provided they're chipped and aren't scarf and beat shit regular Zyg couldn't. Its speed can also allow it to act as a late game sweeper to fatter / slower teams. This mon while having counter play, still has the potential to break through its counters with toxic/iron tail and can cause problems for teams once it can get in.

Zygarde-10% @ Choice Band
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Iron Tail
- Extreme Speed
- Toxic

Replays: (Yes, I made a mega gardevoir team since Zygarde helps pressure steel types and Gardevoir helps break the rest of the shit, and it's only around mid ladder since I don't grind enough.)

vs stall - remember how CB Zygarde used to 6-0d stall lol
vs bulu balance
vs rain
 
View attachment 183952Zydog UR -> C/C+
I'm not sure if there was a post about this before or not, but I haven't seen one. Zygarde is an underrated threat in today's metagame because teams are not prepared to deal with thousand arrows as they once were. Sure, Zydog has much more cons than its original form; this shit dies to like 2 Landorus u-turns and can't live HP ice from anything, but they still have the same damage output and thousand arrows is still busted as hell. It's not entirely cons though either, 115 speed tier actually allows you to stay in on shit like Medicham, Latis, Kartana, Garchomp, etc provided they're chipped and aren't scarf and beat shit regular Zyg couldn't. Its speed can also allow it to act as a late game sweeper to fatter / slower teams. This mon while having counter play, still has the potential to break through its counters with toxic/iron tail and can cause problems for teams once it can get in.

Zygarde-10% @ Choice Band
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Iron Tail
- Extreme Speed
- Toxic

Replays: (Yes, I made a mega gardevoir team since Zygarde helps pressure steel types and Gardevoir helps break the rest of the shit, and it's only around mid ladder since I don't grind enough.)

vs stall - remember how CB Zygarde used to 6-0d stall lol
vs bulu balance
vs rain
Can't say I agree w this nom at all. I used zydog after zyg was banned and it is not good. First off, it does not have the same damage output as it cannot run adamant due to a complete lack of bulk, and that makes a big difference on some rolls and shit (off the top of my head theres pdef clef after rocks that you lose, meaning you now have to predict and iron tail which also makes you exploitable bc it's a crap move to be locked into, especially V clef teams, I forget what the other big ones are now but there's more you have to chip more now), but all of this is just a nitpick compared to how bad this thing is defensively. You're using a dragon/ground, so you should be fine V tran, right? It "pressures steels", so it should help V steela, right? Wrong. Offensive trans magma does half minimum due to trapping damage, steela's slam can do like 80%, so really it provides none of the defensive utility you'd expect it to. Even if you look past this and expect it to be a purely offensive mon, it's offensive traits don't make up for the lack of any other utility in the way other mons like medicham or any other actually good mon that provides nothing defensively. You say it beats stall, but it did 41% to a Chansey which would've recovered then if the player wasn't trash (and either way it toxic'd you so it shouldn't have been hard to stall out, and what's worse is that's max roll, a bad roll would've let that Chansey recover even with the guy choking), and they also let their other check (quag) take a hyper voice from garde which nearly killed it. That doesn't really scream breaking stall because... It kind of doesn't. It can somewhat pressure it, but it needs either a decent amount of support (like your actual stallbreaker mgarde in this case), and bizzarely the weak hits from stallmons can 2hko this thing, so it's not like its getting in easily anyway (0 Atk Quagsire Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zygarde-10%: 124-147 (49.7 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO, not that you'd come in to quag anyway cause scald but the point is it can't take 2 uninvested hits off base 85). I'm not exactly sure how this thing is supposed to beat fat late game, because unless everything is on less than 40 or weak to tarrows it's not going down, and can either recover or bop this thing hard. With the amount of effort it takes to make this thing so shit V fat and how little it provides defensively idt it's worth it. Band espeed is genuinely the only thing it has going for it, as well as a pretty nice speed tier, but even then it's not like priority + speed is unheard of, we have ash gren, and for fast ground types you have scarf lando (with a huge amount of defensive utility to boot) and chomp (which is slower tbf, but also has utility like rocks and checking tran). ik you're only nomming this to C and I've largely compared it to stuff higher, but even in lower ranks you have like nidoking which pressures fat considerably more (outside of Chansey, which actually comes into the set you provided barring crits anyway, even if rocks are up, so that's moot). You have to build a team around this for it to even do its job, and even then its hard to justify it outside of "tarrows is busted!!!". Yes it has a few things other mons don't have, but so do other UR mons that are generally too bad to make these niches matter. This is one of these cases.

tldr: this sucks, as do your opps in the replays, and it's niches over other mons are very minimal, and imo not worthy of ranking it.

Edit @ below: What I'm saying is why bother using this to be a subpar breaker when you have better breakers that also offer things beyond offensive capability? If a mon is both easier to get in and better at breaking, I see literally no reason to use a worse mon, so I'm not going to defend it for being hard to get in when this is a clear bonus of a breaker, particularly when it's a shit breaker to begin with. Also I don't really agree the meta is not prepped for this, obviously its less prepped than pre zyg ban but even cores like BuluTran that you should beat on paper w tarrows and iron tail can tect scout so you can't break them, and all the things you said "deal with grounds" drop to rockium chomp, so it's not really a unique selling point when it's done just the same by a better mon. And regarding the replays: My point was that zyg did approximately nothing in that replay. If the opp did not choke, he had a healthy Chansey you couldn't break, and doing 41% max roll is not really "applying pressure", or at least not efficiently, because you rely heavily on being in the better position for this mon to not be completely dud, at which point why bother? As I said, the only argument you really have is that it can be both a mediocre breaker and a mediocre revenge killer/cleaner, which idt is really worth much when you have other shit that do both roles considerably better.
 
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Can't say I agree w this nom at all. I used zydog after zyg was banned and it is not good. First off, it does not have the same damage output as it cannot run adamant due to a complete lack of bulk, and that makes a big difference on some rolls and shit (off the top of my head theres pdef clef after rocks that you lose, meaning you now have to predict and iron tail which also makes you exploitable bc it's a crap move to be locked into, especially V clef teams, I forget what the other big ones are now but there's more you have to chip more now), but all of this is just a nitpick compared to how bad this thing is defensively. You're using a dragon/ground, so you should be fine V tran, right? It "pressures steels", so it should help V steela, right? Wrong. Offensive trans magma does half minimum due to trapping damage, steela's slam can do like 80%, so really it provides none of the defensive utility you'd expect it to. Even if you look past this and expect it to be a purely offensive mon, it's offensive traits don't make up for the lack of any other utility in the way other mons like medicham or any other actually good mon that provides nothing defensively. You say it beats stall, but it did 41% to a Chansey which would've recovered then if the player wasn't trash (and either way it toxic'd you so it shouldn't have been hard to stall out, and what's worse is that's max roll, a bad roll would've let that Chansey recover even with the guy choking), and they also let their other check (quag) take a hyper voice from garde which nearly killed it. That doesn't really scream breaking stall because... It kind of doesn't. It can somewhat pressure it, but it needs either a decent amount of support (like your actual stallbreaker mgarde in this case), and bizzarely the weak hits from stallmons can 2hko this thing, so it's not like its getting in easily anyway (0 Atk Quagsire Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zygarde-10%: 124-147 (49.7 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO, not that you'd come in to quag anyway cause scald but the point is it can't take 2 uninvested hits off base 85). I'm not exactly sure how this thing is supposed to beat fat late game, because unless everything is on less than 40 or weak to tarrows it's not going down, and can either recover or bop this thing hard. With the amount of effort it takes to make this thing so shit V fat and how little it provides defensively idt it's worth it. Band espeed is genuinely the only thing it has going for it, as well as a pretty nice speed tier, but even then it's not like priority + speed is unheard of, we have ash gren, and for fast ground types you have scarf lando (with a huge amount of defensive utility to boot) and chomp (which is slower tbf, but also has utility like rocks and checking tran). ik you're only nomming this to C and I've largely compared it to stuff higher, but even in lower ranks you have like nidoking which pressures fat considerably more (outside of Chansey, which actually comes into the set you provided barring crits anyway, even if rocks are up, so that's moot). You have to build a team around this for it to even do its job, and even then its hard to justify it outside of "tarrows is busted!!!". Yes it has a few things other mons don't have, but so do other UR mons that are generally too bad to make these niches matter. This is one of these cases.

tldr: this sucks, as do your opps in the replays, and it's niches over other mons are very minimal, and imo not worthy of ranking it.
Sure, you run Jolly and not Adamant but I was speaking that they still have the potential to do the same damage, and on just about any non defensive mon that takes this hit, it doesn't change it from becoming a 2HKO. Even so, a reduce in the slightest damage can make a difference but is definitely not a breaking point for this mon..
Zydog is not a defensive measure to steel types, nor had I ever said so, obviously you don't send this shit into Heatrans for the exact same reason you don't send your Greninja into random Magma Storms. You never switch this shit into random attacks (but in my case, I did have a HW Gardevoir) because it's frail obviously, it's purely an offensive mon. It pressures steels because common steel types in the meta will absolutely switch when Zygarde is out on the field such as Tran, Mag, and a lot of shit that is supposed to deal with grounds in the meta such as Zapdos/Rotom/Celesteela will not switch into this move either. You never sent regular Zygarde into Tran in the first place because why the hell would you take so much chip on a mon that can play as a win condition against many teams? Nobody is expecting anything defensively from this mon.

About the replay - I explicitly stated that the replays were not the best; but you can still see how this mon does work against many teams with the right support. Even if said player didn't fuck up with his Chansey, there was so many opportunities for Zygarde to do work if hazards did get up that if he didn't click toxic, Zygarde wouldn't have been on a timer and would continuously applied pressure if it got the chance to hit a weakened mon. I never needed to send in Zygarde to Quag EQs etc, because I had a team that helps get breakers in. Eject button pex, U-turn Torn. Saying this is pretty dumb tbh because you don't send in breakers into random hits that would put them in an unfavorable state like stated before, you don't send Greninja into Trans Magma storms, etc. But you are right that it shouldn't straight out 6-0 stall anymore, due to it being Jolly, but even that replay shows how stall teams are built to counter a mon like Zydog anymore. Other replays show how teams that rely on shit like Tornadus and Zapdos as answers to ground will really be caught off guard by it and rely on switch ins that don't take thousand arrows well.

"With the amount of effort it takes to make this thing so shit V fat and how little it provides defensively idt it's worth it. "
This arguement makes it sound like anything frail that requires teambuilding to make work is unviable.. But you literally think this way because you're expecting this mon to do something that it shouldn't do, aka have defensive utility to get it in vs weaker mons, but that's not neccesarily always the case for breakers. If you get it in, it'll do its job. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's definitely not hard to slap on u-turn/volt switch, or make some aggressive risky doubles to get value either - which is why I never nommed it high in the first place.. It's niche is that teams aren't prepared for dealing with TA because common defensive play to any other ground attacks do not work against it. It is no stranger that very few mons can actually switch into this shit, but can you honestly say that teams aren't prepared for Nidoking in the meta? Not necessarily. Nidoking is basically only gonna shine vs fat, which isn't the case where Zygarde is going to be doing nothing against a lot of teams.
 
Sure, you run Jolly and not Adamant but I was speaking that they still have the potential to do the same damage, and on just about any non defensive mon that takes this hit, it doesn't change it from becoming a 2HKO. Even so, a reduce in the slightest damage can make a difference but is definitely not a breaking point for this mon..
Zydog is not a defensive measure to steel types, nor had I ever said so, obviously you don't send this shit into Heatrans for the exact same reason you don't send your Greninja into random Magma Storms. You never switch this shit into random attacks (but in my case, I did have a HW Gardevoir) because it's frail obviously, it's purely an offensive mon. It pressures steels because common steel types in the meta will absolutely switch when Zygarde is out on the field such as Tran, Mag, and a lot of shit that is supposed to deal with grounds in the meta such as Zapdos/Rotom/Celesteela will not switch into this move either. You never sent regular Zygarde into Tran in the first place because why the hell would you take so much chip on a mon that can play as a win condition against many teams? Nobody is expecting anything defensively from this mon.
Problem with Zydog being frail is not about switching in, its about what it forces out. While it can beat Flying types, such as Zapdos and Celesteela, it can't force them out. Each one if at any siginifcant Hp can Ohko, or threaten crippling it with Status or huge damage, unlike Zygarde 50% with its bulk, didnt care if the opponent stayed in. Even if you are in on something you force out, many teams won't care as the have a consistent answer. Tangrowth is picking up in usage compared to Bulu, especially is Helmet set on Sand teams, M.Scizor has also picked up in usage, with can gain free momentum or Knock Off. Scarf and Defensive Landorus comes in safely which is noticeably bad, allowing to Rocks, Defog and even threatens Zydog with the 2hko from U-Turn after Rocks, which is incredibly awful losing momentum so easily to the most common Scarfer in the tier. Even Gliscor comes in completely safely.

Compared to other fast frail mons in the tier, it has nothing significant to capitalise on being walled, unless you count Toxic, which is by no means a worthy niche, or anything else notable other than Thousand Arrows. Ash-Greninja forces opponents not to sac, otherwise giving Ash Gren, meaning it has plenty of opportunity to Spike up, which in turn allows it to beat its own checks, freeing up team support. Koko provides both terrain and excellent momentum maker for the team, and even has defensive utility with Shuca and its typing, allowing it to switch into TornT near freely. Lopunny both hits harder, and is much harder to switch into with its Stab combinations. Protean is even harder to switch in to, while also providing spikes... and I can keep going.

Also Zydog doesnt pressure Steel types. It forces them out yes. But they are not pressured. Pressuring a mon means reducing turns they can do stuff. Heatran pressures select Grass types, as it can often come in near free, limiting the turns the opponent can do stuff. Diancie and Lele can pressure Steel types as they can often force them in with its stabs, and Diancie can weaken with Earth Power or Hp Fire, while Lele can attempt to brute force with Specs. Zydog does neither of these. It can't switch in safely to any Steel type bar Skarm, which can stay in anyway to Counter, and it does not force any Steel types in, bar M.Scizor, and perhaps Ferrothorn on certain teams, and Zydog cant brute force M.Scizor without hax. Even after small chip, it can't revenge M.Mawile, as it'd be in range of Sucker Punch. Zydog pressures Ground and Grass types like Landorus and Tangrowth, as these will be forced in, and you can chip and Toxic them in turn.

About the replay - I explicitly stated that the replays were not the best; but you can still see how this mon does work against many teams with the right support. Even if said player didn't fuck up with his Chansey, there was so many opportunities for Zygarde to do work if hazards did get up that if he didn't click toxic, Zygarde wouldn't have been on a timer and would continuously applied pressure if it got the chance to hit a weakened mon. I never needed to send in Zygarde to Quag EQs etc, because I had a team that helps get breakers in. Eject button pex, U-turn Torn. Saying this is pretty dumb tbh because you don't send in breakers into random hits that would put them in an unfavorable state like stated before, you don't send Greninja into Trans Magma storms, etc. But you are right that it shouldn't straight out 6-0 stall anymore, due to it being Jolly, but even that replay shows how stall teams are built to counter a mon like Zydog anymore. Other replays show how teams that rely on shit like Tornadus and Zapdos as answers to ground will really be caught off guard by it and rely on switch ins that don't take thousand arrows well
"if hazards did get up"
He had a M.Sableye vs hazard Ferrothorn. Hazards were never going up.

"Zygarde wouldn't have been on a timer and would continuously applied pressure"
If the man didn't sac his 3 best Zydog checks within the first 8 turns. He had a Quagsire, which didn't care about anything but Toxic, he had a Chansey which didnt care about anything, and then he had a Clefable, which didnt care about anything but Iron Tail. Even if you did manage to somehow Toxic the Quag, he'd have many oppotunities to Heal Bell. And 16 Thousand Arrows were by no means pressuring this stall, unless you mean wasting, at most, 16 out of 48 Recovers/Wish's/Soft Boileds between the 3.

I'm going to be incredibly blunt here, but your Replays are awful. First game the man literally sacced everything important within the first 8 turns. Second replay, the guy refused to go to his Slowbro vs Zydog for some reason, as Slowbro literally walls it infinitely, and doesnt even need to recover after due to regenertor + the pitiful damage Zydog is doing.

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Slowbro: 141-166 (35.8 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

and the third replay was probably your only decent one, showing how offence like rain has little to check Zygarde, though why the guy sacced his Pelipper and not go Kartana or TornT is beyond me. I'm not trying to be mean with this, but 1500s is at most the very bottom of mid ladder, but probably low ladder with the state ladders in at the moment. I've been called out for posting bad replays here in the past and rightfully so, replays are especially important when nomming to show whats being said is not just mere speculation, and actually works in practice against competent opponents with good teams. With your replays, all you've shown is two games where the opponent wanted you to win, and a good mu vs Rain. While high ladder isn't necessary, its better as its more likely your opponent is competent and has a good team. If you can't be bothered to grind for better replays, then don't post at all, as people will pick up on it, only hurting your argument.

It pressures steels because common steel types in the meta will absolutely switch when Zygarde is out on the field such as Tran, Mag, and a lot of shit that is supposed to deal with grounds in the meta such as Zapdos/Rotom/Celesteela will not switch into this move either.

Other replays show how teams that rely on shit like Tornadus and Zapdos as answers to ground will really be caught off guard by it and rely on switch ins that don't take thousand arrows well.

It's niche is that teams aren't prepared for dealing with TA because common defensive play to any other ground attacks do not work against it. It is no stranger that very few mons can actually switch into this shit, but can you honestly say that teams aren't prepared for Nidoking in the meta? Not necessarily. Nidoking is basically only gonna shine vs fat, which isn't the case where Zygarde is going to be doing nothing against a lot of teams.
As stated correctly, Zydogs main niche is Thousand Arrows being hard to switch in to, as Hyper Offence completely struggles, and certain BO using Bulu and Ferrothorn can become free real estate for TA after sniping Bulu with Iron Tail or it can comfortable chunk Ferrothorn. Also mentioned, mons like Zapdos and Rotom-W can't safely switch in and Scarf Lando switch in once, which are the usual checks for Grounds along with Grass types. However even then Zydog is a mainly MU pick, as any BO with Scizor, Tang immediatly shutdown Zydog, and others naturally carry other ways of check Zydog as well, such as Mons like Slowbro Clef, M.Latias, Reuni etc, as well as relying on sniping Bulu with Iron Tail already puts it at a major set back. Even TornT is a good switch, as bulky variants don't die after Rocks and can threaten with Knock to completely cripple Zydog, or Hurricane pick off after chip, with its frailness letting it down once again. So I personally don't believe it should be ranked. However the people to truly ask are the people who brought it to Wcop recently, I'm not sure if it is a meme pick, or I'm underselling its niche.

I probably came off a little to blunt with this, my bad. Don't mean for any hard feelings.
 
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tapukoko.png


From A to A+

Koko is definitely in need of a rise in the current metagame. It's clearly head and shoulders above not only the other Alola Guardians, but the entire A tier itself. It has an insane amount of viable sets ranging from offensive sets such as Specs and Z Wild Charge to more supportive one's such as Defog and Dual Screens.

It's ability itself also plays a supportive roll by activating Electric Seed and boosting the power of not only it's Electric Type moves, but those of it's teammates as well. This allows Koko to create some powerful cores with Mons such as Hawlucha and Mega Mawile running Thunder Punch. It also comes with the added bonus of preventing sleep status on any grounded Mon on the field. This can prevent the opponent from sporing Koko as well as any grounded ally and prevents opponents from using Rest and Sleep Talk strats effectively.

Everyone is already pretty familiar with Koko's more Popular and common sets such as Specs, Dual Screens and Defog so I'm gonna try and focus on more on current metagame trends.

Z sets have been gaining popularity recently and for good reason as they allow Koko to defeat checks and counters to some of it's previously more popular sets. Z Wild Charge when paired with Taunt allows Koko to Beat Chansey 1v1. Taunt is actually just a great move for Koko in general as it allows it to shut down Rockers and Spikers such as Ferro on the switch in.

Roost is another move that is seeing a rise in usage. Roost allows Koko to become one of the best counters to Torn, more specifically when used in the Z set mentioned above since it doesn't fear Knock Off or any attack Torn Throws at it for that matter. Its really just a great move to have on a Mon who's constantly switching in and out and taking passive damage along the way.

Sets like the one's I mentioned above and other more recently popular sets such as the Scarf set make Koko one of the most unpredictable, threatening Mons in the current metagame and are definitely more than enough reason for it to jump up a spot in the viability rankings

One last thing I'd like to point out that since the beginning of this year's Ladder usage statistics and the post Zygarde ban Metagame, Koko has never once dropped below 7th place and is usually at about 4th or 5th place which I feel is way too high for an A rank Mon
 
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Ok, making another nom from Unranked. So thats now 6 nominations from UR in 2 pages. Oh no, what did I start D:
Me
Cleann
Charmflash
Flexxen
Hanametic

and now:



If I'm going to be honest I've never used Seismitoad, and only know its basic niche; Setting Rocks, checking Tapu Koko, Greninja-Ash and Heatran, and shutting down Zapdos and Rotom-W as Defoggers. However I've seen it around a lot, being used 3 times in WCoP (which is more than most of C/+/- rank), the most recent tour, while getting semi decent usage on ladder already. I'm just really surprised that this hasn't already been nommed, let alone ranked. So I'm nomming in hopes of someone with actual experience with Seismitoad can elaborate on my points, and add further detail.

For sets it mainly runs SpDef, helping it better check Greninja-Ash and Heatran, and with moves, Stealth Rocks and Scald are the staples, with the last 2 being a choice of Earthquake, Toxic, Protect, Refresh, Knock and even Poison Jab to snipe Bulu and spread Poison, making it very customisable for teams.

WCoP Replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-445344 - Beats Rotom-W 1v1 allowing for Rocks to stay up
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-443444 - Sets Rocks and spreads status
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-450729 - While eventually overwhelmed, Refresh allowed it to come in multiple times to set Rocks
 
Nomming Ditto to C+ (again). Ditto has performed consistently throughout WCoP and continues to have leading influence even into OLT; it's definitely more useful than some shit in C+ like blacephelon, for example.

Nominating
Ditto for a return to C+ up from its current ranking at C


Ditto's drop to C in late October was explained by the following:



Ditto hasn't been mentioned once in this thread since October's VR slate, and yet since then there are numerous OU viable builds running around with Ditto performing well on each of them. Charmflash's use of it in SPL helped put it back in the spotlight by proving its viability outside of stray/niche stall builds. His thought process behind using it in SPL is more than enough imo to bump Ditto back to C+
 
I wanna nominate Avalugg from C- to Unranked. Besides it's amazing defense and nice attack, it doesn't have anything else good. Because it suffers from the majority of the higher tier due to the rest of its stats sucking shit. Especially since it has low speed and special defense with a bad defensive typing. Now if I can name another mon like that but with lower speed but Trick Room, STAB Gyro Ball, and better stats. So overall Avalugg just can't do barely anything versus the OU Meta due to its bad typing, speed (Has Rock Polish and it has a max speed of 170. But you'd barely have that time to set up) and special defense.

Edit: BTW Mega-Scizor for A- Again.
 
I wanna nominate Avalugg from C- to Unranked. Besides it's amazing defense and nice attack, it doesn't have anything else good. Because it suffers from the majority of the higher tier due to the rest of its stats sucking shit. Especially since it has low speed and special defense with a bad defensive typing. Now if I can name another mon like that but with lower speed but Trick Room, STAB Gyro Ball, and better stats. So overall Avalugg just can't do barely anything versus the OU Meta due to its bad typing, speed (Has Rock Polish and it has a max speed of 170. But you'd barely have that time to set up) and special defense.

Edit: BTW Mega-Scizor for A- Again.
I'm going to have to disagree, I feel like your missing the point of why Avalugg is ranked. The whole point of the pokemon is to be used as a physical wall on full stall teams. The ONLY reason to use it is for that, and what it brings to the table is very niche (hence why it is ranked c-) yes it has terrible spdef and speed, but full stall teams aren't exactly the fastest archetype (being slow means nothing on stall, look at chansey and sableye) out their and you should not be switching this into special attacks in the first place. You can pretty much always switch Avalugg into Lando (unless its at +2 with z rock) as long as its at decent health, which is difficult because its weak to rocks, but this thing is ranked c- so you cant expect THAT much out of it. IMO i think Avalugg is better than half the crap in c- like golem, tales, and even scolipede, so i think it should keep its ranking.
 
I wanna nominate Avalugg from C- to Unranked. Besides it's amazing defense and nice attack, it doesn't have anything else good. Because it suffers from the majority of the higher tier due to the rest of its stats sucking shit. Especially since it has low speed and special defense with a bad defensive typing. Now if I can name another mon like that but with lower speed but Trick Room, STAB Gyro Ball, and better stats. So overall Avalugg just can't do barely anything versus the OU Meta due to its bad typing, speed (Has Rock Polish and it has a max speed of 170. But you'd barely have that time to set up) and special defense.

Edit: BTW Mega-Scizor for A- Again.
Whoa hold your horses bucko! What’s with all this hot shot talk of running polish sets? Don’t you know Avalugg has a specific niche on stall teams? Yeah good luck with your fancy pancy Mawile or hipster pinsir doo dad. Helmet lugg is great at holding back some physical wall breakers said and a few more. Spin is pretty cool too despite an admittedly poor typing.

Anyway don’t mug the lugg let Omari ps dream live on.
 

Finchinator

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S Toxapex from A+ to S: A+, S, S, S, S
A Gliscor from A- to A: A, A, A, A/A+, A
A- Latios-Mega from B+ to A-: A-, A-, A-, A-, B-
B+ Weavile from B to B+: B+, B+, abstain, B+, B+
B+ Gastrodon from B to B+: B, B, B+, B+, B+
B Manaphy from B- to B: B, B, B+ preferably, B is fine, B/B+, B-
B Slowbro from B- to B: B, B, B, B, B
B- Kommo-O from C to C+/B-: B-, C+, B-, B-, B- (even B imo)
B- Ditto from C to C+/B-: B-, B-, C+, B-, B- (same as kommo-o)
C+ Aggron-Mega from C to C+: C+, C+, C+, C+, C
C+ Skarmory frm C to C+: C+, C+, B-, C+, C+
C Krookodile from UR to C-/C: C, C, C, C, UR
B+ Kyurem-Black from A- to B+: A-, A-, B+, B+, B+
C+ Pinsir-Mega from B- to C+: B-, C+, C+, B-, C+
C- Ribombee from C to C-: C-, C-, C-, C-, C-
C- Araquanid from C to C-: C, C-, C, C-, C-
C- Latias from C to C-: C-, C-, C-, C-, C-
C (no change) Mantine from C to C-: C, C-, C-, C, C
#VALUE!
A (no change) Tapu Fini from A to A+: A, A, A, A, A
A (no change) Celesteela from A to A+: A, A, A, A, A
A- Lopunny-Mega from B+ to A-: A-, A-, fine either way, A-, B+
B+ (no change) Charizard-Mega-X from B+ to A-: B+, B+, B+, B+, B+
B (no change) Victini from B to B+: B, B, fine either way, B, B
B (no change) Kyurem from B to B+: B, B, B+, B+, B
B (no change) Hoopa-Unbound from B to B+: B, B, B, B, B
B (no change) Venusaur-Mega from B to B+: B, B, B, B, B
B (no change) Hawlucha from B to B+: B+, B, B, B, B
B- (no change) Charizard-Mega-Y from B- to B: B, B-, B-, B-, B-
B Garchomp-Mega from B- to B: B-, B, *shrug*, B, B
B- (no change) Gallade-Mega from B- to B: B-, B-, B-, B-, B-
C (no change) Thundurus-Therian from C to C+: C, C, C, C+, C
C (no change) Azumarill from C to C+: C, C, C+, C+, C
C- (no change) Dragonite from C- to C: C-, C-, C, C-, C
C- Nihilego from UR to C-: C-, C-, UR, C-, UR
UR (no change) Abomasnow-Mega from UR to C-: UR, UR, UR, UR, UR
C- Bronzong from UR to C-: C-, C-, C-, UR, UR
UR (no change) Xurkitree from UR to C-: C-, C-, UR, UR, UR
C- Zygarde-10% from UR to C-: C-, C-, C-, C-, UR
C- Seismitoad from UR to C-: C-, C-, C+, C-/C, C-
A+ (no change) Ferrothorn from A+ to A: A+, A+, A+, A, A
B Heracross-Mega from B+ to B: B, B, B+, B, B
B- Mamoswine from B to B-: B-, B-, B-, B, B-
C- (no change) Scolipede from C- to UR: C-, C-, C-, C-, UR


Changes: With explanations for everything above C ranks

Rises

S Toxapex from A+ to S: A+, S, S, S, S: Toxapex has been a great Pokemon for a very long time, but recently it has been even better, especially thanks to Toxic Spikes sets and even the occasional use of Baneful Bunker. It is all over OLT and it was approaching staple status on some WCOP balance archetypes.
A Gliscor from A- to A: A, A, A, A/A+, A: Gliscor has been a solid pick in the metagame for a couple of years now, but as of late the Swords Dance variant took off. It is now one of the better win conditions in the metagame and WCOP showed this off quite a bit. Add onto this the fact that the Stealth Rock + Toxic variant is fantastic on the OLT ladder currently and solid in general and you get a pretty complete, A rank Pokemon.
A- Latios-Mega from B+ to A-: A-, A-, A-, A-, B-: Mega Latios is back and it's still a solid addition to teams. It has a nice defensive presence and it's a potent mixed attacker, threatening the entirety of many teams.
A- Lopunny-Mega from B+ to A-: A-, A-, fine either way, A-, B+: Dual priority variants have proven to be very helpful in fending off set-up spam on the ladder, leading to an increase in usage during OLT.
B+ Gastrodon from B to B+: B, B, B+, B+, B+: Everyone's favorite slug shined bright during WCOP when used and now has a nice spot on some balance teams.
B+ Weavile from B to B+: B+, B+, abstain, B+, B+: Weavile is a great offensive utility choice right now, picking up usage thanks to how fast it is and how great both Pursuit and SD variants are. We have seen it shine in numerous tournament games and even on some balance teams on the ladder recently.
B Garchomp-Mega from B- to B: B-, B, *shrug*, B, B: Mega Garchomp keeps on popping up and doing pretty significant damage on a consistent basis. It will never be a top tier Pokemon, but it does its job and that in itself deserves a spot in B rank.
B Manaphy from B- to B: B, B, B+ preferably, B is fine, B/B+, B-: I mean it's pretty damn broken on the ladder with the Rest / Tail Glow / Surf / Psychic set on Rain. It's just tearing shit up left and right rn, nothing is a more dominant balance breaker.
B Slowbro from B- to B: B, B, B, B, B: Nice defensive pivot that answers a lot of prominent Pokemon such as Mega Medicham, Landorus-Therian, and Mega Lopunny.
B- Ditto from C to C+/B-: B-, B-, C+, B-, B- (same as kommo-o): Ditto saw a rise in popularity during WCOP and it is now a semi-regular member of some semi-stall teams, which is very cool. It is yet to shine consistently quite yet, but it is rising up the ranks and could be a household name on these sorts of teams, even if they're fringe common, moving forward.
B- Kommo-O from C to C+/B-: B-, C+, B-, B-, B- (even B imo): The god clanger is seeing a lot of usage with various sets, ranging from ratchet set-up to Stealth Rock. Overall, it is common enough and effective enough to be above the C ranks.
C+ Aggron-Mega from C to C+: C+, C+, C+, C+, C
C+ Skarmory from C to C+: C+, C+, B-, C+, C+
C Krookodile from UR to C-/C: C, C, C, C, UR - newly ranked, niche pursuit trapping Scarfer with cool natural defensive utility.
C- Nihilego from UR to C-: C-, C-, UR, C-, UR -- newly ranked, always been fringe viable as a special attacker with good special bulk and access to Toxic Spikes and a decent movepool.
C- Bronzong from UR to C-: C-, C-, C-, UR, UR -- newly ranked, niche Stealth Rock setter that checks a lot of common things such as Mega Latios, Tapu Bulu, Landorus-Therian, and Garchomp.
C- Zygarde-10% from UR to C-: C-, C-, C-, C-, UR -- newly ranked, fringe viable Zygarde replacement that can spam CB Thousand Arrows with much less consistency or effectiveness than the regular Zygarde that got banned.
C- Seismitoad from UR to C-: C-, C-, C+, C-/C, C- -- newly ranked, niche Stealth Rock setter that does a good job sucking up momentum and can be annoying to kill/pivot into for some bulky offenses.

Drops

B+ Kyurem-Black from A- to B+: A-, A-, B+, B+, B+: This one is hard to say as it really could go either way, but Kyurem-Black is harder to justify on some teams than it once was. It is still a fine choice, but it is not quite as good as it once was in its prime about two years ago.
B Heracross-Mega from B+ to B: B, B, B+, B, B: Nobody really uses it anymore and outside of that one ABR team nobody really used it before either.
B- Mamoswine from B to B-: B-, B-, B-, B, B-: No real reason to use the pig rn outside of very niche spots that are probably going to end up on flawed teams anyway.
C+ Pinsir-Mega from B- to C+: B-, C+, C+, B-, C+
C- Ribombee from C to C-: C-, C-, C-, C-, C-
C- Araquanid from C to C-: C, C-, C, C-, C-
C- Latias from C to C-: C-, C-, C-, C-, C-

Bit less of an aesthetically pleasing post, but here are your changes (^). I will try to get another one going after the first couple weeks of SSD3 and then perhaps one more before the end of SM itself. Thanks to the VR Council for voting and GMars for helping a ton. If any further explanations are needed, ask me or the SQSA thread!
 
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Ruft

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I'm going to propose more of a structural change to the VR. With the S rank becoming increasingly crowded I believe that the time has come to split it into two subranks, S(+) and S-, as I think Greninja-Ash, Landorus-T and Magearna are a cut above the other two.

I also feel like Tornadus-T would be deserving of S- rank in that case (joining Heatran and Toxapex) as it's the tier's premier defogger as well as an excellent pivot. It reached an all-time high in usage in WCoP where it came in second after Landorus-T.
So I guess I want to say
Tornadus-T from A+ to S-.
 
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Not about to make an entire nom here but Shedinja deserves a ranking on the VR since it's been pretty influential on the OLT ladder lately as a check to Manaphy and the tapus for stall teams. It's not a big niche but it's definitely enough to warrant a spot somewhere in the Cs.

heres some info from the OLT thread


- This stall team was used by ABR to climb the ladder. It takes an interesting spin on stall by using an uncommon, yet very recognizable, menace in Shedinja. While many stall teams tend to struggle against the Rest Manaphy rain teams that were being used a lot this cycle, Shedinja completely flips this matchup around, by walling most wincons on rain teams. The rest of the team focuses on keeping hazards off the field for Shedinja and by stacking its own hazards with Chansey and Skarmory.




Even though this might look the same team as abr's it is very different, i made this by fixing the mantine stall i used sometimes during my ST ssn to qualify and thats what came out. Thats supposed to be a ladder cteam, as u can see it lacks some key members that a stall always wants such an unaware mon or in general a way to force out heavy threats (such ditto) thats why i think this team should never be used in a tour game or outside of the ladder in general, but yea we are talking about ladder so its ok.
My pex there is icium, z-haze pex is very helpful in this team since as we have alrdy seen the team has no unaware mon and having the chance to recover all ur hp and restore stats at the same time is very helpful in many situations such taunt mons, sd mawile, hawlucha etc...
For sab i picked a phys def set with foul play, i think that at the moment this sab set is the best one i started using this since when SD Grounds and SD Kartana started being more popular, some calcs:
Hide
As u can see on skarm i have the combination of counter + spikes and a good amount of speed evs, the speed evs are to be faster than mawile and chip it with the helmet by recovering if the 4atks set while u can just recover and counter the SD Knock one. Spikes are there because many of the ditto balanced/semi stall that have been used had no hazard control or if they did it was excadrill that had not easy moments to spin and usually used ferro or lando as rock setter (so no way they would set up their hazard with Sab and then force me to defog) and it means that even by facing a ditto while u using a stall u will still win the match up.
Talking about shedinja i did try 3 different sets, the one on the import and those 2:
Hide
Protective pads is not a known item and thats why it works even better, is great on shedinja since it makes him immune to contact effects so Rough Skin, Helmet, Iron Barbs etc... so u can just feel free to click x-scissor or shadow sneak against all those clus, some nadus in range etc... by not worry about dying from contact ability, screech>sd is there cause of more pps. Safety goggles one has the same set as the focus sash so i guess it doesnt need any explaination.



During the tail end of the cycle ABR also used 4 different stall teams, ranging from Weav stall to the Shed stall pictured above based on various ladder trends and issues with the team(s) that he saw while laddering. The primary breakdown of the benefits for each version of the stall is that the Weav version performed the best against SD + Z Move Ground-types, the Shed version did the best against Mana rain, and the Glisc version did the best against Toxic Heatran. In addition to ABR, BK also used Shed + Volc stall near the tail end of the cycle for its strong matchup against rain and Maw offense, and it allowed him to qualify.



- https://pokepast.es/ce328d8eec6bf186


- https://pokepast.es/5d9013710dff77a1

Every year I have the temptation to stall the OLT ladder and try to figure out the way to have it beat the common stall breakers at the time. During last cycle and early on in this one I used more traditional Quag stalls (Sab Chans Pex Skarm Quag Volc / Weav) but i kept losing to rain, Lele, or Mawile among other things. With rain being omnipresent on ladder, I decided to try out Shedinja as my good friend teal6 suggested. Besides beating Manaphy, it also deals with most sets from Reuniclus, Clefable, Magearna, Latias, and Koko. Sash + prio + wisp in general lets it revenge most threats in a pinch if needed, mostly compensating for the lack of unaware on these teams. As for the last slot, I went from Hippo -> Quag -> Glisc and then kept Glisc but made a separate Volc version. Glisc is the most reliable because it helps with Tran, Z lando, Mawile to an extent, and even Ditto. The biggest draw here with regards to Ditto is that Pex + Glisc, with regen + poison heal, can outlast anything Ditto copies from your team with its infinite pp, so you never fall behind in the long run. By the end of the cycle I faced tons of Maw bulky offense and less stall so I made the last minute change to the Volcarona version, but still overall I recommend Gliscor.

Regarding sets, those for Sab Chans Skarm Shed are the same on both variants so I'll explain those first. I think physdef Sab is a viable option but overall I still usually prefer spdef to help deal with lefties Tran, Clef, Fini, Torn, and spiking Gren, with the moves being standard. Chansey is bell and can afford tox-less with the other toxic mons, particularly Pex as it deals with the special fires like Zard-Y and Volcarona. Skarm is toxic to actually beat sr grounds long term, and hp fire is for pure safety vs all Kartana sets. If Kartana uses a Z move it still has to attack and take helmet the following turn, while helmet + hp fire with 20 spa evs kills around 94% of the time. Shedinja has minimized bulk as it never uses it so you might as well make the Ditto copy more frail. Sneak and wisp are obligatory utility moves, while sd + x scis allows it to actually kill Mana and Reuni. For Pex sets, they have the same moves because toxic is required without toxic Chans and haze is required without an unaware user. The Glisc team has an actual volt stop vs mons like Zap and Rotom if need be so Pex doesn't just autolose to volt long term, and thus can afford Z toxic for taunters such as Gyarados and Z torn. Due to the Volcarona version lacking that stop to Zap and Rotom volt, I put black sludge on Pex to better deal with it long term. Glisc started out as knock for the long term chip vs stall, but at the moment I prefer toxic because it isn't fully walled by Z Lando, and you actually prefer using toxic vs Ditto instead of Knocking it because the next mon it copies won't have poison heal, yet it keeps the status. Volcarona outspeeds modest Tran with the rest of the investment going into defense to fend off the Mawile, Kyurem-B, and the grasses.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-953104287 (shed glisc vs rain)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-951348820 (shed glisc vs skarm reuni)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-952183629 (shed glisc vs ditto pex ferro (897 turns))f

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-953209868 (shed volc vs ditto fini kart)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-953226735 (shed volc vs maw tran rotom)

~

Enjoy


theres more on that thread but yeah that sums it up well
 
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B -> C+

While Kingdra is still a decent choice on Rain thanks to its better match up against opposing Rain teams, better typing, and the ability to outspeed most scarfers in the rain. It has a hard time actually fitting on the archetype now thanks to Ash-Greninja and Manaphy beating it out for spots on teams. Ash-Greninja is more powerful and can lay down spikes and Manaphy is unmatched in its phat breaking skills. Thus I think it should drop to C+ to reflect the fact thats its on the niche side nowadays.
 
190001
Mega Latias from A to A+

M-Latias has been on the rise in OLT: becoming a common sight on bulky-offense teams in particular. It checks so many of the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier right now, can provide utility through its defog+twave set and against opposing balance it's a devastating wincon.

What I just said isn't news to most people, but I wanted to make this nom when I compared Lati to the two A+ Megas in the tier- Alakazam and Mawile. Latias cannot force KOs like Zam and M-Maw can but it provides defensive utility for a team that they don't, on top of its offensive presence. Even in a match-up where Latias doesn't pop-off offensively, its fat, typing, reliable recovery, immunity to Spikes/Tspikes and speed let it remain useful as a check to potent offensive threats like Z-Rock Chomp, SD Gliscor, many variants of Kart, Bulu and more. Its insane special movepool also gives it access to niche options like Energy Ball, which eases the Rain MU since it smacks Mega-Pert and Manaphy. Obviously, EB is niche for a reason and it can't run everything it wants, but it's a 'mon with so many potential tools that it can shape itself to fit whatever your balance + bulky offense team needs. For this, I think it deserves at least some discussion.
 
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View attachment 189997

B -> C+

While Kingdra is still a decent choice on Rain thanks to its better match up against opposing Rain teams, better typing, and the ability to outspeed most scarfers in the rain. It has a hard time actually fitting on the archetype now thanks to Ash-Greninja and Manaphy beating it out for spots on teams. Ash-Greninja is more powerful and can lay down spikes and Manaphy is unmatched in its phat breaking skills. Thus I think it should drop to C+ to reflect the fact thats its on the niche side nowadays.
While this is true for the "standard" arche-type that's reinforcing a mindset that there is only one way to do rain consisting of the exact same six pokemon. Kingdra has a distinct niche in the metagame which is clicking Surf over and over again from turn 1 without being outsped. I've managed to build successful rain recently utilizing Kingdra and he's no worse now than he was months ago. If anything, as you mentioned with Rain making a comeback (along with Psyspam), he really turns the tide in both of those matchups. I'm not sure why Manaphy is even brought up when he's a designated fat breaker.
 
View attachment 184329

From A to A+

Koko is definitely in need of a rise in the current metagame. It's clearly head and shoulders above not only the other Alola Guardians, but the entire A tier itself. It has an insane amount of viable sets ranging from offensive sets such as Specs and Z Wild Charge to more supportive one's such as Defog and Dual Screens.

It's ability itself also plays a supportive roll by activating Electric Seed and boosting the power of not only it's Electric Type moves, but those of it's teammates as well. This allows Koko to create some powerful cores with Mons such as Hawlucha and Mega Mawile running Thunder Punch. It also comes with the added bonus of preventing sleep status on any grounded Mon on the field. This can prevent the opponent from sporing Koko as well as any grounded ally and prevents opponents from using Rest and Sleep Talk strats effectively.

Everyone is already pretty familiar with Koko's more Popular and common sets such as Specs, Dual Screens and Defog so I'm gonna try and focus on more on current metagame trends.

Z sets have been gaining popularity recently and for good reason as they allow Koko to defeat checks and counters to some of it's previously more popular sets. Z Wild Charge when paired with Taunt allows Koko to Beat Chansey 1v1. Taunt is actually just a great move for Koko in general as it allows it to shut down Rockers and Spikers such as Ferro on the switch in.

Roost is another move that is seeing a rise in usage. Roost allows Koko to become one of the best counters to Torn, more specifically when used in the Z set mentioned above since it doesn't fear Knock Off or any attack Torn Throws at it for that matter. Its really just a great move to have on a Mon who's constantly switching in and out and taking passive damage along the way.

Sets like the one's I mentioned above and other more recently popular sets such as the Scarf set make Koko one of the most unpredictable, threatening Mons in the current metagame and are definitely more than enough reason for it to jump up a spot in the viability rankings

One last thing I'd like to point out that since the beginning of this year's Ladder usage statistics and the post Zygarde ban Metagame, Koko has never once dropped below 7th place and is usually at about 4th or 5th place which I feel is way too high for an A rank Mon
I second this nomination. Tapu koko is an invaluable asset for practically every offensive team, and its terrain supports some of the deadliest breakers and sweepers in the tier such as shift gear Magearna, Hawlucha, Mega Medicham, and Mega Mawile. Specs Koko with thunder is incredibly powerful on rain teams as well which we all know are being spammed like crazy on the ladder.
 

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Koko is a great Pokemon, but A+ feels like a big stretch to me. I think that the offensive/pivot sets are strong now, especially on the OLT ladder, but there are still a majority of games where it is basically just a pivot with speed -- nothing more, nothing less. A lot of common Pokemon wall it -- Tapu Bulu, Ferrothorn, Mega Latias, Excadrill, etc. -- and plenty of decent ones do as well -- Gastrodon, AV Tangrowth, Amoonguss, etc.

Obviously, having fast U-turn and the ability to check Tornadus-T in a pinch are great assets, but so many other things can do either of these tasks and while it finds a place on many teams, it does not appear to be a top tier Pokemon like the other A+ Pokemon are. To me, it is well below the level of Mega Mawile, Tornadus-T, or Ferrothorn and much closer to things like Rotom-W and Protean Greninja, who are far from dominant, but very acceptable potential pivots and gameflow Pokemon themselves as well.

Screens sets and lure sets are cool additions to what Tapu Koko can do, but they are far from distinguished or common enough to really warrant moving it up to A+, too, considering how high and established a rank it is. I think Tapu Koko belongs squarely in A rank for the time being.
 
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