Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

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Gadget

Formerly Sanctus Janus
Lets talk about the Mega elephant in the OU room, but only by technicality, Mega Garchomp.
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Mega Garchomp is an interesting mon, its one of the few megas seen as a worse version of their non mega, and as such it sees very little usage, especially when there are many other megas that can hit much harder physically, while still being faster (namely mega medicham). However I do not think that Mega Chomp's strong point is the raw power, but instead it is the breaking potential it has.
Before I go about saying Mega Garchomp is good, I am first going to ask a question. What makes a mon good? Now there are a lot of answers that might come to mind, such as raw power, or sheer bulk, but I think we should take a closer look at some of the best mons in the meta right now.
The head honcho of OU himself: Landorus T
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now what does Landorus do that makes him the most used mon in the meta by a wide margin. its not one singular set, or the sheer power, but instead its just how much Landorus can do. It can be scarf for a fast pivot and late game cleaner, it can be fly z for a nuke to get past some mons that wall scarf landorus, it can be a support landorus with rocks or defog to ease the pressure off of other mons, it can be defensive landorus, custap, sash, or ever some wierder options like rockinium z. and double dance. All of these sets have something in common, they are not the best set for that exact role. "Why run defensive lando when gliscor exists?" a new player might ask? my personal answer has been not for the bulk, but for the other 2 moves you have remaining after sr/defog, and eq. gliscor plays very linearly, and the second it comes in, you know exactly whats going to happen. its gonna either get up or get rid of rocks, toxic you, and then roost/eq until its forced out. Lando has a bit more mystery around it. You cant go around bringing in a tangrowth on to lando early on if you dont know it isnt z fly, and you cant risk clicking hydro pump with your greninja if you dont know for sure it isnt scarf u turn. It can do so much, that it doesnt need raw power to get to S rank, instead it is S rank because how you can tailor it exactly for your team, making it great glue for a team
The Perfect Storm: Heatran
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Heatran is a similar story to Landorus, in that the strongest part of tran is not its sheer power, but its the number of things it can do. With just one set, A Heatran can trap a mon, get rocks up, and get past the normal checks and counters it runs into such as landorus. This mon is the definition of glue, as it provides so much support that it can be slotted onto almost every team in OU. While Heatran is arguably the worst of the S rank mons, it still has several sets and is still calced for as a benchmark for some mons, for me personaly I always be sure my tankchomp can outspeed timid heatran so I dont get blown back by HP ice, or get needlessly toxiced. All of this lets heatran be so versitile that it deserves its spot at S


If you guess wrong you loose: Magerna
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I hate playing against this mon. It has 3 main sets, but in those sets there is so much variation that it is impossible to truly know what you are facing until it is far too late. First Assault vest. Assault vest it the most splashable set because of how much it does. it eats hits from weaker mons, it acts as a pivot, it can sweep if the team is chipped, it has coverage for whatever your team is weak to, this set does it all. While normally this wouldn't be a problem for most teams, it becomes a problem when you look at its next set, shift gear. Shift gear, if not played around, sweeps teams after one boost. You need to play around shift gear, as even a little chip to your check could allow Magerna to win just by using its z move and then sweeping. This creates a guessing game where you need to play around shift gear until you know its assault vest, because if you play like its assault vest and a shift gear comes up late game, you might as well just start searching for another battle. This wouldnt be so bad, if it weren't for the coverage it possesses. Tbolt, ice beam, focus blast, fleur cannon, energy ball or shadow ball even. all of these moves can blow back a potential check on the switch, with there being no true checks for magerna, only soft checks, save some weird spdef mega camerupt. This creates another mon that can be tailor made to a team, making more great glue.

The more Linear Mons:
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Ash Gren and Pex
Im not going to spend as much time, as I believe these mons are the exception and not the rule. they both have one set that just does what it does so well that they deserve S rank, with ash gren an effective 60 bp priority stab move coming off of 600 spa if your specs is just too hard to dance around, and the other stab being dark pulse only helps with its breaking, but It really needs support to get in and it get past common checks like bulu or tangrowth. Pex on the other hand is a very linear mon. step 1, get in, step 2 get up tspikes, step 3 wall most of the meta. while the argument could be made that tspikes/spikes are support for their team, Pex and gren differ from every other mon on the viability rankings in that they are not anywhere near as splash-able, and only fit on certain builds.

Okay, so now that we figured out what the best mons in the meta do to make themselves good, what is something most of them have in common? versatility. They all can play several roles on a team. now lets look at mega chomp again. what does it do? it can set up rocks, and then be an extremely hard to switch into mon, with draco, eq, and fire blast. Looking at common walls.

Ferrothorn :
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252+ SpA Garchomp-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 332-392 (94.3 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery. This thing is not switching in, ever. if it does then its going to be outsped and bopped. furthering this, if you save your mega until a ferro switches in thinking your rockium z and cant touch it, you can get rid of a very common and hard to deal with wall for your team.

The big Pex:
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4 Atk Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 236-282 (77.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery Even off 2 min rolls and a recover spam, pex is 3hkoed off of an eq, and if it comes in with rocks up there is about a 37% chance pex just drops.

Chancy:
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4 Atk Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 228-268 (32.4 - 38.1%) -- 96.6% chance to 3HKO. Okay Ill give you this, chancy needs its eviolite gone, but otherwise walls mega Garchomp, however assuming you knock it off somehow 4 Atk Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 340-402 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO. Chancy cannot safely switch in, as it is slower and will get 2hkoed.

Gliscor:
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252+ SpA Garchomp-Mega Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 244 HP / 76 SpD Gliscor: 382-451 (108.5 - 128.1%) -- possible KO in 2 turns after Poison Heal. what that means is, if gliscor switches into a draco, it is dead unless it, by some magic, is faster and gets off a roost. this is another common wall that cannot switch in.

Reuniclus:
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252+ SpA Garchomp-Mega Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 380-448 (89.6 - 105.6%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. This is the 4th common stall/balance pick that simply cannot switch into mega chomp without risking dropping, especially if it is chipped at all by either rocks or a previous attack depending on ability.

So now we know that Mega garchomp is good at breaking common stall picks, we have to ask ourselves, is this worth the mega spot over other hard hitters? mega medicham also gives balance/stall a hard time, so why chomp? Mega chomp gives you a few things, one, if you have a tyranitar, you dont even look like chomp could be the mega, with ttar being the more obvious choice, and 2, mega chomp's ability, sand force. this gives Mega chomp a Life orb boost on its EQs and if you are running stone edge, its stone edges. This only amplifies the hard to switch into nature of this mon, with next to nothing being able to switch into it throughout the game. So with all this hyping it up, there has to be some downside, right?
Okay the obvious one is the speed. you loose out on a huge speed bench mark, and suddenly that Mega Medicham that you normally quake beats you, along with a mew ice beam, and a victini V-create. You also use up your mega, so mons that would love to be partners with this, like mega mawile, cannot be. The power gained on the physical side is just not worth it, as Life orb hits harder if sand is not up. Okay, so we know its downsides, now what is it good at? well it, along with hoopa-u and mega diance, is one of the few viable mixed attackers, and that is something that is far more relevant then most people give it credit for. Skarm cant beat it 1v1 and chancy cant if the item is knocked off.

So Now we know what the problems this mon faces is, how can we patch that up?. the biggest one is good speed control. Serp makes a great partner as serp appreciates walls being weakened by mega chomp, and mega chomp appreciates the glare support provided. Sticky web setters such as araquanid also help slow down the enemy team for mega chomp to start punching holes. You could also make the argument for trick room, but the lowest it gets is 170 speed which is not slow enough.

Mega Chomp
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B-> B+ due to its hard to switch into nature, and its ability to break most balance/stall teams in half.
 
Might as well comment on some few noms.

:Serperior: B+ -> A- Agree

I'm gonna give a reason for this. Recently a new set was "discovered" known as UtilitySerp as a really annoying HO monster that spams glare and taunts walls. Speaking of Glare, Sub Glare is so annoying to face because its basically a guaranteed paralyze on anything not named M-Sableye who just gets set up on. Zapdos is annoying though.

:Glalie-Mega: Unranked -> B- Agree

Spikes is always nice and Ice + Ground coverage is broke af. Athough B- maybe a little to much as it still has that trash typing. I think C+ is a better ranking for it. Now please blunder do the Blace nom.

:Breloom: Unranked -> C Disagree

Why would I use this over any other bulky grass type? This thing is already match up fishy and Amoonguss is another spore using grass type that isn't a match up fisher and actually brings better utility to the mix. Serp is a better subseeder thanks to glare.


:Victini: B -> B+ Agree

I agree with the reason above but also we have seen it pair up with Zard-Y for a fire spam core and Choice Band Sun Boosted V-Create is basically, "which mon do I not need."

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex in Sun: 191-225 (62.8 - 74%)
 
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Edit: Main thread is updated with changes. You do some really awesome work guys.

Why is the main thread not updated with changes? I don't quite understand why someone has to go through all the 94 pages of comments to get all the changes that were done in a final version, or am I missing something?
 
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Jordy

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Why is the main thread not updated with changes? I don't quite understand why someone has to go through all the 94 pages of comments to get all the changes that were done in a final version, or am I missing something?
The first post in this thread is what gets updated everytime there's an update. The other posts are just discussion.
 
:sm/Glalie-Mega:
I agree with Mega Glalie should be ranked, it is a good offensive Thread with Ice as its main typing and Ground as coverage option is hard to switch into. It also can set-up Spikes, which is always good and the speed-tier is also pretty solid with 100 speed bypassing some of the biggest threats in Tapu Lele and Mega Garchomp. It also speed ties with the base 100, which is enough in the OU tier to have a good spot on offensive oriented teams.
It can also held its own in some games and can easily break through steel-types like Heatran and Celesteela as Earthquake is 4x to the former and Refrigerate boosted Return/Frustration will do a good chunk to Steela, as this mon is rather spdef to tank hits from Tapu lele and Mega Alakazam.
Mega Glalie unranked to C+

:sm/Victini:
Victini is really underrated imo, not only the Z-Celebrate Set makes it a threat, when special sponges are gone, but it also offers itself as a nice momentum giver with U-Turn. V-Create is relatively hard to switch into when it is Choice Banded and only gets full stopped by the Flash Fire mon Heatran and with Scarf it can be a decent check to Mega Alakazam and other top mons like Tornadus-Therian, which has to fear Bolt Strike.
I think Victini really deserves a rise from B to B+ as the metagame tend towards its favor.

:sm/Serperior:
This mon is hella good right now with checking the best weather archetype in rain. It can threaten every mon there from mega-Swampert to Manaphy with its STAB Move or Glare. It can also use Knock off to get rid of crucial Items and proves itself as a decent Defogger as well.
It's Scarfset is also very viable as it outpaces Swift Swim Mega Swampert so it has options to revenge kill it reliably with gettin a +2 boost afterwards.
It has a really good standing in the current state of USUM OU and deserves a rise due to multitude of ways to prove itself as a threat.
 

Mubs

that introduction
is a Community Contributor
Random non-ou player, random time for a nom

:sm/shedinja:

Shedinja @ Protective Pads
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Protect
- X-Scissor
- Shadow Sneak
- Will-O-Wisp
Why is this mon not ranked at all? Shedinja, once seen as a shitmon, shedinja has risen to become quite a viable defensive option on many stall teams, mainly due to its ability to combat metagame threats such as choice locked Tapu Lele, CMSplit Magearna, and Manaphy. It also has the ability to check the majority of Tapu Koko, Reuniclus, and Latias sets. Protective Pads helps versus stuff like rough skin, iron barbs, etc. All these traits lead me to believe that it deserves a rise to C-/C, preferably C.

Here is a replay of it in action

Thanks for reading, and have a nice day.
 
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After the ban of Zygarde in the beginning of the year, I feel like this mon should’ve been ranked a long time ago.
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While seemingly outclassed, Salazzle has several unique niches over Tran and other common Fire types in OU. Outspeeding Gliscor, Non-Scarf Kart, the Mega Latis, and Serperior, is a dealbreaker since all of these except for Serperior and Kart have been seeing a spike in usage on balance teams due to their ability to counter and check Heatran and other common threats, and the latter two outspeed Heatran and can cripple it in some way.

Salazzle can fulfill the niche of a fast wallbreaker on BO or scarfer with utility. Specs hits like a truck, OHKOing and 2HKOing a majority of the OU tier including but not limited to, every viable non-Tran steel type, Gliscor, Lando, Wash, Tyranitar, Offensive Tran, and even a decent chance to 2HKO Mega-Latias after rocks which is something Heatran wishes to do.

But it can also function as a decent scarfer. Revenging SG Magearna, Koko and Scarf Kartana which are the scariest mons to face for HO teams while providing utility in Knock Off, Toxic, and even Encore gives it a viable niche on HO teams.

As we all know Corrosion is a ridiculously good ability, and a valuable one in the continuous reign of Magerana, Pex and Heatran. Crippling them is highly valuable in the current meta letting it support/pair greatly with some of the most dangerous offensive threats in the tier like Mega-Zam, Ash-Gren, Mega-Mawile, SG Magearna, and Tapu Lele. AV Magearna would be able to swap into Lele and Zam several times, not if its time is lessened. Tran would usually be able to check Mega-Mawile lategame, not if its been weakened too much by poison damage. Pex would usually be able to stop an onslaught from SG Magearna and Ash-Greninja, not if poison damage continuously deteriorates its HP.

Unlike most fire types in OU though, it is frail and doesn’t provide much defensive utility which affects it splashability and ironically its mediocre vs Stall without Pursuit support.

I nominate Salazzle out of UR to C-/C for its incredible speed tier, amazing offensive typing, and unique niche over common fire types like Tran, Victini, and Volcarona, that being an offensive fire type that fits well on HO and BO, fulfilling the role of a breaker or scarfer, while outspeeding rising threats like the Mega-Lati twins, Manaphy, Victini, and Gliscor and threatening to 2HKO them. It’s also a viable check to the likes of Mega-Cham, SD Lando, Non-Scarf Lele, Kart, Serp, and the scariest setup sweeper in the tier Magearna (If it doesn’t have Gigavolt Havoc) while being able to either 2HKO/OHKO most of the tier after rocks with Specs or cripple them with Toxic opening space for powerful offensive threats.

Salazzle (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat/Fire Blast
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Toxic

Salazzle (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Wave
- Knock Off/Encore/Hidden Power [Grass]
- Toxic

Edit:

Salazzle (F) @ Poisonium Z
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Overheat/Fire Blast
- Sludge Wave
- Toxic

I forgot to mention this set but it’s nice for luring Pex, Gastrodon, Chomp, and Tran in and proceed to harass them with Toxic while breaking through defensive cores at +2. Due to its typing it forces out stuff like Ferro and AV Mage letting it find an opportunity to setup Nasty Plot or spread Poison damage. It pairs nicely with Bulu which sponges hits from Ash-Gren and Koko while taking care of Ttar and Gastro. Bulu also appreciates Salazzle OHKOing the two rising stars of OU Balance teams, Gliscor and Mega-Lati after a NP boost + rocks and scaring off the likes of Steela and opposing Bulu.

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Overheat vs. 244 HP / 188 SpD Gliscor: 384-453 (109 - 128.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 358-423 (98.3 - 116.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Pairing it with Zard-Y lets it potentially beat Pex.

0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Salazzle in Sun: 78-92 (27.3 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

+4 252 SpA Salazzle Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Sun: 239-282 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

https://pokepast.es/f43d5c4a961575d1
(Nasty Plot Salazzle team)

https://pokepast.es/596423f20a8ecef8
(Double Grass BO but with Specs Salazzle)

https://pokepast.es/8b5b08a8cb64ceb6
(HO with Scarf Salazzle)

These are the best replays I got.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-927419282
(Showcasing Salazzle’s ability to check SG Mage even at +1)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-928744270
(Showcasing Salazzle vs Zam Balance and why its Speed tier is important. < See on turns 3 and 4.)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-970897559
(Salazzle takes a Flamethrower from Zard Y and lets Mawile win for the team.)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-970435247
(Salazzle takes an Acrobatics, preventing Lucha from potentially sweeping, allowing the team to win.)

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 342-403 (89.5 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Magearna Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 206-244 (63.7 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Magearna Volt Switch vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Salazzle: 96-113 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 168-198 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam-Mega: 273-322 (108.7 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 162-191 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO lol

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Salazzle: 218-257 (76.4 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Salazzle: 195-229 (68.4 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 312-367 (86.1 - 101.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Overheat vs. 244 HP / 76 SpD Gliscor: 328-387 (93.1 - 109.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 370-438 (104.5 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
Full SpD still won’t save it.

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 147-174 (40.3 - 47.8%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Medicham-Mega: 238-282 (91.1 - 108%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 196-232 (64.4 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Hidden Power Fighting vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 204-240 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 201-237 (53.8 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 198-234 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 224 SpD Pelipper: 211-250 (65.3 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Overheat vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 312-367 (81.4 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 144 SpD Hippowdon: 468-551 (111.4 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 208-246 (60.8 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 164 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 207-244 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Salazzle: 185-218 (64.9 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 207-244 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And side note

252 SpA Salazzle Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 288-338 (95.6 - 112.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Salazzle Fire Blast vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 192-228 (63.7 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Salazzle: 222-262 (75.7 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Salazzle: 180-212 (61.4 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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Salazzle (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat/Fire Blast
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Toxic

Salazzle (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Wave
- Knock Off/Encore/Hidden Power [Grass]
- Toxic
I'm curious what the advantage to splitting up the HP and Speed investment is, as opposed to just running max Speed.
 
I'm curious what the advantage to splitting up the HP and Speed investment is, as opposed to just running max Speed.
The ev spread for Specs lets Salazzle live a +1 Twinkle Tackle from Magearna after rocks while still letting it outrun Serperior.

+1 252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salazzle: 179-211 (64.6 - 76.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Salazzle: 180-212 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Same thing with the Scarf set spread except its desgined to outrun +2 Magearna and Scarf Kartana while taking a Hurricane from Offensive Torn at full.

252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salazzle: 240-283 (86.6 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Salazzle: 241-285 (82.2 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I also forgot to mention a 56/252/200 ev spread for the scarf set can be ran to outrun Scarf Serp.
 
UR->C

Before you say Breloom is just worse Kartana, let me explain, I'm considering the SubPunch Loom set as its best set, not the LO or Sash ones, those are pretty bad in my opinion.

As the name suggests, SubPunch Loom's main gimmick is just spamming Focus Punch: you use Substitute, click Focus Punch, and deal a ton of damage to one of the opponent's mons, and even if they have something like Clefairy, Zapdos, bulky psychics or Defensive Landorus, those are still taking around 30% damage, and if they switch on your attack, they will take a total of ~60%, Zapdos isn't even that good of a check, since Breloom could run Stone Edge as coverage, and switching into FPunch isn't really punishing Breloom that much, Toxic Heal can just recover the chip caused from Zapdos' possible Rocky Helmet and Toxic Orb makes it so that Loom can't get paralized, Zap can't roost on it too, because otherwise it'll lose its flying type and take a lot of damage.

Paired with a Pursuit Trapper, Breloom doesn't have to to worry about Psychic types, and can be a major annoyance for the oponnent, even more than it already is, talking about annoyance, Loom can put people to sleep with Spore, and that can really come in clutch, like showed in this replay of mine:https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-960943179 (i did win bc of a heat wave miss, but I still think this game shows some of the things Loom is capable of doing best)
Breloom also goes really well with cleaners that appreciate chip on the opponent's team, slow U-Turners/Volt Switchers also help Loom to come in and just deal damage.
Breloom has ok bulk, and can deal ok against Ash-Greninja if it has Mach Punch or a lot of defensive investment(it shouldn't be considered a threat to AshGren tho), on the more defensive side it can also serve as a status sponge.

What separates Breloom from other fighting types in the tier is:
  • Defensive utility
  • Spore
  • Not wasting a mega slot
  • The whole Focus Punch gimmick(other fighting types can do it too, but they usually waste a mega slot and/or are way less defensive than Breloom, without recovery or bulk.)
  • Toxic Orb+Toxic Heal combo
Breloom has some flaws tho, being a huge momentum sink and having decent, but underwhelming bulk is one of the most notable problems with it.

Overall, I feel like Breloom is a pretty decent mon, and it has put a lot of work in my battles, i'm not really high on the ladder, nor play any tournaments, so I don't battle against very experienced players, because of that saying it worked for me is not much lol, still i think it should be on the VR, in my opinion it should be at least on C.

The set I use https://pokepast.es/1618306037abc830
As commented above, you can run Edge too if you want to threaten Zapdos, I personally prefer Mach Punch because it beats Ash-Gren and because priority is just incredible.
Its not that its worse then Kartana, Breloom is worse then every other grass in OU. Its not going to set on fairys such as tapu Koko. Even if it does set up it can easily be dealt with. Other grass types don't really fear fairy types like, mega venusaur, Kartana, or amoonguss. They can set up on them, besides spore doesn't work on tapu kokos electric terrain, or tapu fini misty terrain. Then again its pointless to use Breloom over other grass mons that have better coverage, and have more survivability, and can counter more things in the meta.
 
Yeah I don't see any reason why Breloom should be ranked on the VR at all. It just has so many issues that make it not worth running.

The mere presence of 3 of the Tapus restricts important moves, electric terrain stops spore which is probably the main reason you would consider it, psychic terrain stops mach punch which makes up for its horrible speed and allows it to deal with threats such as gren and tran, and special mention to misty terrain which not only stops spore but also means breloom can't setup orb to abuse pheal or switch into any attack in general.

On the subject of that, saying Breloom has underwhelming bulk feels like an understatement, 60/80/60 bulk is just plain bad and even neutral hits OHKO or at the very least 2HKO it for the most part. For reference, Greninja is 72/67/71 bulk and we know how frail that is.

To make matters worse, the other common moves Breloom runs are situational. Bullet Seed which can be great with technician, but can also end up worse then seed bomb if you get unlucky, its inconsistent. Subpunch can work, but because of the need for at least 3 moveslots for both moves + spore, you either are forced to run no SD to have both stabs or be mono fighting which is the current Breloom set and mono fighting in a meta with amazing pokemon like Toxapex, Zapdos, Lando-T and Tornadus-T just does not seem viable to me.

The final nail in the coffin is just why use this pokemon when you have better grass types both offensively and defensively that have much less issues.

Tapu Bulu has amazing power and even without running a defensive set, can heal so much damage with Horn Leech + Terrain and actual bulk at 75/115/95 it will still probably outlast Breloom. I shouldn't even need to mention why Kartana is better but it has outstanding attack, great speed, can easily snowball thanks to beast boost even without needing to SD amongst other things.

On the defensive side Tangrowth and Amoonguss both have regen, much better bulk and also access to sleep moves. While Tangrowth might not have spore and have to deal with sleep powder misses, it has access to great moves such as Knock Off which Breloom doesn't get. Amoonguss has a nice poison typing allowing it resist fairy and more importantly, absorb Tspikes.

I could go on an mention other great grasses such as M-Venu or Ferro but I think at this point, I don't need to explain any further.

TLDR; Breloom is frequently inconsistent due to not only its own movepool but also terrains, it has bad bulk and is outclassed both offensively and defensively by better grass types and so should stay Unranked.
 
After the ban of Zygarde in the beginning of the year, I feel like this mon should’ve been ranked a long time ago.
View attachment 193506

While seemingly outclassed, Salazzle has several unique niches over Tran and other common Fire types in OU. Outspeeding Gliscor, Non-Scarf Kart, the Mega Latis, and Serperior, is a dealbreaker since all of these except for Serperior and Kart have been seeing a spike in usage on balance teams due to their ability to counter and check Heatran and other common threats, and the latter two outspeed Heatran and can cripple it in some way.

Salazzle can fulfill the niche of a fast wallbreaker on BO or scarfer with utility. Specs hits like a truck, OHKOing and 2HKOing a majority of the OU tier including but not limited to, every viable non-Tran steel type, Gliscor, Lando, Wash, Tyranitar, Offensive Tran, and even a decent chance to 2HKO Mega-Latias after rocks which is something Heatran wishes to do.

But it can also function as a decent scarfer. Revenging SG Magearna, Koko and Scarf Kartana which are the scariest mons to face for HO teams while providing utility in Knock Off, Toxic, and even Encore gives it a viable niche on HO teams.

As we all know Corrosion is a ridiculously good ability, and a valuable one in the continuous reign of Magerana, Pex and Heatran. Crippling them is highly valuable in the current meta letting it support/pair greatly with some of the most dangerous offensive threats in the tier like Mega-Zam, Ash-Gren, Mega-Mawile, SG Magearna, and Tapu Lele. AV Magearna would be able to swap into Lele and Zam several times, not if its time is lessened. Tran would usually be able to check Mega-Mawile lategame, not if its been weakened too much by poison damage. Pex would usually be able to stop an onslaught from SG Magearna and Ash-Greninja, not if poison damage continuously deteriorates its HP.

Unlike most fire types in OU though, it is frail and doesn’t provide much defensive utility which affects it splashability and ironically its mediocre vs Stall without Pursuit support.

I nominate Salazzle out of UR to C-/C for its incredible speed tier, amazing offensive typing, and unique niche over common fire types like Tran, Victini, and Volcarona, that being an offensive fire type that fits well on HO and BO, fulfilling the role of a breaker or scarfer, while outspeeding rising threats like the Mega-Lati twins, Manaphy, Victini, and Gliscor and threatening to 2HKO them. It’s also a viable check to the likes of Mega-Cham, SD Lando, Non-Scarf Lele, Kart, Serp, and the scariest setup sweeper in the tier Magearna (If it doesn’t have Gigavolt Havoc) while being able to either 2HKO/OHKO most of the tier after rocks with Specs or cripple them with Toxic opening space for powerful offensive threats.

Salazzle (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat/Fire Blast
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Toxic

Salazzle (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Wave
- Knock Off/Encore/Hidden Power [Grass]
- Toxic

These are the best replays I got.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-927419282
(Showcasing Salazzle’s ability to check SG Mage even at +1)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-928744270
(Showcasing Salazzle vs Zam Balance and why its Speed tier is important. < See on turns 3 and 4.)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-970897559
(Salazzle takes a Flamethrower from Zard Y and lets Mawile win for the team.)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-970435247
(Salazzle takes an Acrobatics, preventing Lucha from potentially sweeping, allowing the team to win.)

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 342-403 (89.5 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Magearna Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 206-244 (63.7 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Magearna Volt Switch vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Salazzle: 96-113 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 168-198 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam-Mega: 273-322 (108.7 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 162-191 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO lol

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Salazzle: 218-257 (76.4 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Salazzle: 195-229 (68.4 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 312-367 (86.1 - 101.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Overheat vs. 244 HP / 76 SpD Gliscor: 328-387 (93.1 - 109.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 370-438 (104.5 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
Full SpD still won’t save it.

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 147-174 (40.3 - 47.8%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Medicham-Mega: 238-282 (91.1 - 108%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 196-232 (64.4 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Hidden Power Fighting vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 204-240 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 201-237 (53.8 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 198-234 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 224 SpD Pelipper: 211-250 (65.3 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Overheat vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 312-367 (81.4 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Overheat over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 144 SpD Hippowdon: 468-551 (111.4 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 208-246 (60.8 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 164 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 207-244 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Salazzle: 185-218 (64.9 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 207-244 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And side note

252 SpA Salazzle Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 288-338 (95.6 - 112.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Salazzle Fire Blast vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 192-228 (63.7 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Salazzle: 222-262 (75.7 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Salazzle: 180-212 (61.4 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Okay. So first off, I absolutely, wholeheartedly agree that Salazzle has enough of a niche in OU that it should be ranked. I was actually planning on channeling my inner Omari P and making this nomination myself relatively soon but someone beat me to the punch; quite frankly, I couldn't be happier.

However, I personally think that the set that truly warrants it being ranked in the first place - not to discredit your Specs/Scarf sets, of course; I just haven't playtested them - is the following:


Salazzle (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 248 HP / 20 SpD / 240 Spe (this investment gives Salazzle the most possible special bulk it can get while outrunning Scarf Magnezone and the occasional base 115s, though one can run less investment if outpacing Serperior is more ideal).
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Flamethrower
- Disable
- Toxic

I built a really weird, unorthodox team that consisted of Ice Beam Mega Tyranitar, Choice Band Zydog (which IMO shouldn't be unranked whatsoever), and, of course, Sub+Disable Salazzle. I personally really like the support that Salazzle can provide for things that greatly appreciate having both Steel and Poison types pressured heavily (case-in-point: Fat QD Volcarona is an incredible partner for this set despite compounding several weaknesses).

This Salazzle set doesn't take the offensive approach the aforementioned Specs/Scarf sets take, instead leveraging its unorthodox typing for more of a defensive/support role. The Poison/Fire typing allows Salazzle to eat up a surprising amount of Fairy-type attacks, and with this investment it can pretty easily stomach a Twinkle Tackle from a +1 Magearna even after Stealth Rock damage although it's ill-advised to do something like that.

Salazzle is the only fully-evolved bearer of the incredible Corrosion ability, and thanks to it Salazzle has a perfectly accurate Toxic that can cripple Heatran, Toxapex, and Magearna; therefore, it naturally forces a ton of switches which it can punish by getting up a Substitute and greatly easing prediction. Disable is run to greatly punish any Heatran thinking it could get away with using Earth Power to break Salazzle's Substitute, and it's generally a pretty awesome move to punish things like Specs Lele. Flamethrower is run to get the easy damage on Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Celesteela as well as the free kill on Kartana (who can't pressure Salazzle too much if it's lacking Knock Off, either) although none of them appreciate a Toxic whatsoever.

The ability to effectively ignore one of the biggest defensive benefits to running a Steel type and to actually cripple Toxapex to a very significant degree is absolutely incredible given the current state of the metagame. Heatran may be on a slight decline in popularity and usage, but Toxapex, Celesteela, and Magearna are still phenomenal. Therefore, I echo the sentiment that Salazzle should be considered for C.

Edit: I'll be able to procure a couple of replays of Salazzle doing Salazzle things in a bit in case those are needed, although I'm not the one who made the original nomination.

Replay 1: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-971659447

So basically, Salazzle was a bit of a bitch for this guy. He didn't really have anything that could outspeed it so no matter what something was going to get nailed by a Toxic. It proceeded to 1v1 his Mega Garchomp (and had I read the Chomp switchin I could've VERY easily Subbed up instead of going for the Disable but the Disable is likely what deterred his Earthquake in the first place), prevented Magearna and Ferrothorn from even thinking about coming in, and managed to status both his Volcarona and his TTar in the process which proved extremely important when Volcarona - arguably its best partner, as I mentioned earlier - began to prep for its sweep. I was kinda hoping to get some Loom action in but it did its job pretty well nevertheless.

EDIT: This isn't a Salazzle replay but a better showcase of Loom's unique set of qualities:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-977235032
 
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Yeah I don't see any reason why Breloom should be ranked on the VR at all. It just has so many issues that make it not worth running.

The mere presence of 3 of the Tapus restricts important moves, electric terrain stops spore which is probably the main reason you would consider it, psychic terrain stops mach punch which makes up for its horrible speed and allows it to deal with threats such as gren and tran, and special mention to misty terrain which not only stops spore but also means breloom can't setup orb to abuse pheal or switch into any attack in general.

On the subject of that, saying Breloom has underwhelming bulk feels like an understatement, 60/80/60 bulk is just plain bad and even neutral hits OHKO or at the very least 2HKO it for the most part. For reference, Greninja is 72/67/71 bulk and we know how frail that is.

To make matters worse, the other common moves Breloom runs are situational. Bullet Seed which can be great with technician, but can also end up worse then seed bomb if you get unlucky, its inconsistent. Subpunch can work, but because of the need for at least 3 moveslots for both moves + spore, you either are forced to run no SD to have both stabs or be mono fighting which is the current Breloom set and mono fighting in a meta with amazing pokemon like Toxapex, Zapdos, Lando-T and Tornadus-T just does not seem viable to me.

The final nail in the coffin is just why use this pokemon when you have better grass types both offensively and defensively that have much less issues.

Tapu Bulu has amazing power and even without running a defensive set, can heal so much damage with Horn Leech + Terrain and actual bulk at 75/115/95 it will still probably outlast Breloom. I shouldn't even need to mention why Kartana is better but it has outstanding attack, great speed, can easily snowball thanks to beast boost even without needing to SD amongst other things.

On the defensive side Tangrowth and Amoonguss both have regen, much better bulk and also access to sleep moves. While Tangrowth might not have spore and have to deal with sleep powder misses, it has access to great moves such as Knock Off which Breloom doesn't get. Amoonguss has a nice poison typing allowing it resist fairy and more importantly, absorb Tspikes.

I could go on an mention other great grasses such as M-Venu or Ferro but I think at this point, I don't need to explain any further.

TLDR; Breloom is frequently inconsistent due to not only its own movepool but also terrains, it has bad bulk and is outclassed both offensively and defensively by better grass types and so should stay Unranked.
I really wouldn't say that technician sets are even worth talking about, they are so terrible. The real set that has been getting some usage is the sub punch set.

I feel like in some matchups breloom absolutely dominates, but like I said in SOME matchups. When you don't have that good matchup it might as well be dead weight. No other mon does exactly what it does, but that doesn't necessarily mean it should get ranked. I haven't tried a bulk up set in this generation, but I seriously doubt it is viable due to bulu existing and basically doing the same but better in most ways. Also I do not think mach punch is the best move on subpunch, its too weak, I think leech is superior.
 
Been seeing some Salazzle posts so also gonna post my thoughts on that and also nom a pokemon I feel should be higher ranked.

Firstly I'll cover Salazzle's offensive sets. Salazzle suffers from two main issues which are a lack of coverage and a lack of power. This pokemon does not get any coverage outside of its stabs, and unlike Blace which also suffers the same problem, does not have an amazing special attack stat or the ability to snowball with either scarf or getting speed beast boosts. Then there are other pokemon like Zardy and Victini which also have better coverage and can hit harder, so offensively, I see little to no reason why you would use this.

Defensively however, is the interesting part. Corrosion is unique ability to poison anything and with sub + disable, you can either force things out or take at least thing out as it gets Salazzle down to lower health. Well, this is how well it goes in theory at least. In reality its rare to have battles like that. Apart from heatran, no steel types will switch or stay in vs Salazzle and even if they did, flamethrower would be the better option. There are two problems I have this set, the first being that its extremely predictable. Most people see Salazzle and instantly know ToxicSub because that's the only thing it can do which is somewhat viable. The second is after you toxic something, Salazzle becomes pretty much deadweight, because thats all it can do. Its not much different then Toxapex doing Toxic and then spamming recover, apart from Salazzle having less bulk, weak to SR and lack of recovery in return for being able to Toxic Toxapex and Heatran and have mild damage output with flamethrower.

Protect over Disable is honestly better because 68/60/60 means even resisted hits are breaking sub so protect offers more longevity, though status absorbers such as Tapu Fini and Gliscor can still wall it. I feel like this pokemon if ranked, should be C- at most, but I would like to see high level games where Salazzle does show off what it can do before being ranked.

That aside, time for the other half of the post which is nomming Jirachi from B+ to A-.

Jirachi is an amazing pokemon on stall teams and while its not a staple yet, it is easily one of the best pokemon on stall. It is able to deal with common yet fearsome stall breakers such as Kyub and Lele yes, but it also deals with other pokemon like Latias and Reun who are CM users that can also give stall a hard time. Jirachi can also deal with basically all Magerna sets including the CM PS one which only a few other pokemon that are more niche such as mega venu or Shedinja can.

To make things even better, despite being a steel psyshic, it doesn't get trapped by Zone or Ttar since choice locked Zone can't break through wish + protect unless either crits or paralysis happens and Ttar can be scouted first to see if pursuit or crunch as pursuit doesn't come close to killing and jirachi can switch out if crunch. Alternatively jirachi's high speed means you can also 2hko with Iron head regardless since you outspeed and odds are in your favour to flinch which is what makes it safer then other trap prone pokemon like Skarmory.

Jirachi can also help other pokemon stay healthy by means of Wish + Uturn and has other moves like Stealth Rocks to reduce the moveset burden on pokemon like Chansey or Clefable. Speaking of hazards, being immune to Tspikes and resistant to rocks also helps it stay healthy. It does have its issues however, since it hates being knocked off or burned and so makes it less of a great switchin to pokemon like Torn-T and Toxapex. It also doesn't have great matchups against some of the best and common pokemon in the game such as Heatran and Greninja. Despite that I still think Jirachi has the potential to be A-.

TLDR; Salazzle is C- at Best, Jirachi for A-
 
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Gliscor from A to A+

Gliscor's post-WCoP rise has been meteoric, to say the least. It was seen everywhere in OLT, on bulky offense/balance type builds. Within the first week of Snake Draft, Gliscor was used 17 times. This was more than Landorus's 13 and Magearna's 14 (shoutouts to Jordy for telling me this), which is totally insane. The two sets that have seen the most play are the SpDef SD set and the SR + Toxic set. The former is a potent wincon against bulkier builds, who can't even rely on toxic to wear it down, thanks to poison heal. It even abuses bulky teams that lean on fellow rising-star Ditto to handle set-up sweepers, since the only thing Ditto can hit it with is a pathetic, status-less Facade. The latter abuses Gliscor's amazing typing and the status immunity + passive healing of Poison Heal to make for a sturdy rocker that can take big hits, can't be worn down with toxic, and heal five million later in the fight, on a free switch into something like ferrothorn or toxapex.

Players have had to adapt their builds to the Gliscor Renaissance, one way or the other. Heart Swap Magearna fell out of fashion, as it gave Gliscor free turns to set up and kill it (which in turn made Reuniclus better, leading to the Gliscor + Reuniclus balance builds that were all over the place, in OLT). For a goofy example of this, look no further than Eo VS Soulwind for SSD.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-455306

Soulwind's SD Gliscor was a serious threat to Eo's team, on paper. If you wore down MLop (assuming that it has Ice Punch at all, which is less common now, compared to double priority), Gliscor SDed on literally every member of this team, and decimated it. Eo's answer to this was luring it with Clefable and then smacking it with a Z-Ice Beam. The Z was required for Clef to secure the kill on Gliscor, as it was otherwise a roll; and you want to secure the kill against a mon that can heal 5/8ths of its health in one turn. This tech worked beautifully, and let Eo take the game for his team, but I feel like this illustrates the kind of impact Gliscor has on building. Fat needs answers/lures to it, or else it will just murder them unopposed

(as an aside, seeing ABR wreck Valentine with SD Gliscor, followed by both Eo and SW bringing it in the very next SSD game is what prompted me to make this post)

Gliscor isn't perfect, of course. It's insanely weak without boosts, can be overwhelmed by faster offensive builds, is vulnerable to many premier threats like Greninja and can be kind of deadweight in certain matchups, like rain. You can also argue that I might be jumping the gun on this nom, and all this hype could potentially fizzle out when people are more prepared for it. In spite of this, the combination of its defensive utility, its potential offensive prowess, as well as its insane usage on the highest level makes me think that it's still a nom worth considering.

Addendum: The Defog + Toxic Gliscor variant was the one that saw the most use in SSD. Its typing, status immunity and bastard recovery making it as good at removing hazards as it is at setting them shouldn't be all that surprising. Brickshitting defensive Landorus (even with HP Ice) and scaring away Heatran are good qualities for a defogger as well.
 
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Why would I use this over any other bulky grass type? This thing is already match up fishy and Amoonguss is another spore using grass type that isn't a match up fisher and actually brings better utility to the mix. Serp is a better subseeder thanks to glare.
I feel like in some matchups breloom absolutely dominates, but like I said in SOME matchups. When you don't have that good matchup it might as well be dead weight.
I'll have to disagree with the statement here that loom is matchup fishy, Breloom can put in work even on disadvantageous situations, it isn't deadweight, that's mainly because of Spore, which is effective against any team, even when they have Koko or/and Grass types, putting something to sleep means you're getting a free Sub and then you just do what Breloom does, Focus Punch is almost always dealing a lot of damage, even against fat mons.

No grass type really does what Breloom does, Amoongus and Tang put people to sleep but they're passive, Serp doesn't have Spore, Pheal, nor the instant damage output that Breloom has, in fact I feel like Loom is more of a fighting type than a grass type, its grass typing is only useful so it can resist water and EdgeQuake. while Fighting gives it FPunch and MPunch STAB, and the fighting mon that comes closer to what Loom does is Buzzwole I think, but again it doesn't have PHeal and Spore.



Yeah I don't see any reason why Breloom should be ranked on the VR at all. It just has so many issues that make it not worth running.

The mere presence of 3 of the Tapus restricts important moves, electric terrain stops spore which is probably the main reason you would consider it, psychic terrain stops mach punch which makes up for its horrible speed and allows it to deal with threats such as gren and tran, and special mention to misty terrain which not only stops spore but also means breloom can't setup orb to abuse pheal or switch into any attack in general.

On the subject of that, saying Breloom has underwhelming bulk feels like an understatement, 60/80/60 bulk is just plain bad and even neutral hits OHKO or at the very least 2HKO it for the most part. For reference, Greninja is 72/67/71 bulk and we know how frail that is.

To make matters worse, the other common moves Breloom runs are situational. Bullet Seed which can be great with technician, but can also end up worse then seed bomb if you get unlucky, its inconsistent. Subpunch can work, but because of the need for at least 3 moveslots for both moves + spore, you either are forced to run no SD to have both stabs or be mono fighting which is the current Breloom set and mono fighting in a meta with amazing pokemon like Toxapex, Zapdos, Lando-T and Tornadus-T just does not seem viable to me.

The final nail in the coffin is just why use this pokemon when you have better grass types both offensively and defensively that have much less issues.

Tapu Bulu has amazing power and even without running a defensive set, can heal so much damage with Horn Leech + Terrain and actual bulk at 75/115/95 it will still probably outlast Breloom. I shouldn't even need to mention why Kartana is better but it has outstanding attack, great speed, can easily snowball thanks to beast boost even without needing to SD amongst other things.

On the defensive side Tangrowth and Amoonguss both have regen, much better bulk and also access to sleep moves. While Tangrowth might not have spore and have to deal with sleep powder misses, it has access to great moves such as Knock Off which Breloom doesn't get. Amoonguss has a nice poison typing allowing it resist fairy and more importantly, absorb Tspikes.

I could go on an mention other great grasses such as M-Venu or Ferro but I think at this point, I don't need to explain any further.

TLDR; Breloom is frequently inconsistent due to not only its own movepool but also terrains, it has bad bulk and is outclassed both offensively and defensively by better grass types and so should stay Unranked.
That reply was really well written and made me think a lot about my nom, in fact, after reading it I thought that Breloom wasn't deserving of C rank, C- is much more appropiate.

The presence of the Tapus doesn't harm Breloom as much as you said, Mach Punch isn't that essential to Loom, Psychic Terrain is not appreciated but it doesn't change much, you're really only using that move against Ash-Gren or against mons very low on health, in fact, Mach Punch could be replaced with other moves like Rock Tomb and Leech Seed. Breloom can also always come in when there's no Misty Terrain to set his Pheal.
Electric Terrain is probably the Terrain that prejudices Loom the most, and even then it isn't that bad, Terrains don't last the entire match and switching into Breloom to block its sleep is risky for Koko bc it can't tank a Focus Punch very well.

Breloom's fragility can be circumvented by Substitute+Poison Heal, making it last a lot on a battle, in fact, i'd say it lasts longer than Banded Bulu, because of Wood Hammer.

Also, Tornadus isn't really a good option to deal with Breloom, as it takes too much from Focus Punch and can't really come in on it. Talking about checks, Loom can p much beat every check of his if it can put them to sleep with Spore. But Sleep Clause is a thing so

Spdef Bulu is a defensively oriented mon, unlike Breloom, which is pretty much Offensive Support, both Kartana and Banded Bulu pack much weaker fighting type moves, can't just spam Substitute like Loom can, and they also don't have Spore.
Ferrothron and MVenu can't be compared to Loom for the same reason Amoongus and Tang can't, they wouldn't be used for the same reason Breloom would, they are defensive mons.
 
But a team with a Venusaur, Amoonguss, Bulu, or Koko can just switch said mon in and shut down Breloom. Only Koko fears Bullet Seed and you’re relying on a Ferrothorn to spike tack to set up a Sub for Focus Punch. Breloom just doesn’t cause enough switches anymore to warrant using SubPunch imo.

It’s primary checks in OU CANNOT be put to sleep, that’s what makes them really effective checks.

Additionally, counters like Tornadus or Koko don’t mind taking Focus Punch as much because of Roost or Regenerator.
 
Id like to mention that Kartana and Bulu, don't need good fighting type moves, even though bulu has super power. and Kartana has sacred sword, meaning things that are weak to fighting don't want to switch on them anyway. And don't need spore to make them ranked. They can survive a lot longer then Breloom. Bulu has more advantage over Breloom, meaning it can hit flying types hard with stone edge, it can heal your megas and others with grass terrain, and being fairy makes it immune to dragons. Kartana has the advantage of being getting beast boost every turn, making it even harder to counter.

And your only reason for using Breloom cause it has a better fighting move and spore? Even though a lot of things in the meta can easily counter spore. Pretty much any other grass mon in OU also can counter Breloom and counter other mons on your team. And true terrains don't last the whole game, but they don't have to, since they set up for other mons that can come in on Breloom, like volcarona, and bug buzz you through sub. Or clefable who will get free calm minds or free comic powers.
 

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Id like to mention that Kartana and Bulu, don't need good fighting type moves, even though bulu has super power. and Kartana has sacred sword, meaning things that are weak to fighting don't want to switch on them anyway. And don't need spore to make them ranked. They can survive a lot longer then Breloom. Bulu has more advantage over Breloom, meaning it can hit flying types hard with stone edge, it can heal your megas and others with grass terrain, and being fairy makes it immune to dragons. Kartana has the advantage of being getting beast boost every turn, making it even harder to counter.

And your only reason for using Breloom cause it has a better fighting move and spore? Even though a lot of things in the meta can easily counter spore. Pretty much any other grass mon in OU also can counter Breloom and counter other mons on your team. And true terrains don't last the whole game, but they don't have to, since they set up for other mons that can come in on Breloom, like volcarona, and bug buzz you through sub. Or clefable who will get free calm minds or free comic powers.
Hi I would appreciate it if you tried to use less vague explanations for describing why Bulu and Kartana are better than Breloom. While all 3 mons use the same move coverage (grass + fighting), how they work is what makes them different. Kartana having beast boost is great, but it's the combination of speed + swords dance + beast boost + z moves that makes it truly threatening. Bulu relies on bulk and grassy terrain to do what it does with pivoting and wallbreaking. Breloom has spore + focus punch with poison heal, which might not be as impressive as the other two, but it can put in work at times. Spore might not be great since koko's terrain, fini's terrain and opposing grasses can get in the way, but not every team has those. There's also the fact that some of the mons that are switching into breloom, like torn-t, may be prone to spore.

I didn't really explain much, but you can go into a lot more detail as to why Breloom isn't as great as Bulu and Kartana other than "they all use fighting + grass moves and spore is not good." The replay on the previous page did show Breloom putting in work in a situation where Kartana and possibly Bulu would have lost in (after the heat wave miss). I'm not saying Breloom is great or even good, but please do try provide better and more in depth explanations for why someone should or should not use Breloom in the current metagame.
 
Hi I would appreciate it if you tried to use less vague explanations for describing why Bulu and Kartana are better than Breloom. While all 3 mons use the same move coverage (grass + fighting), how they work is what makes them different. Kartana having beast boost is great, but it's the combination of speed + swords dance + beast boost + z moves that makes it truly threatening. Bulu relies on bulk and grassy terrain to do what it does with pivoting and wallbreaking. Breloom has spore + focus punch with poison heal, which might be as impressive as the other two, but it can put in work at times. Spore might not be great since koko's terrain, fini's terrain and opposing grasses can get in the way, but not every team has those. There's also the fact that some of the mons that are switching into breloom, like torn-t, may be prone to spore.

I didn't really explain much, but you can go into a lot more detail as to why Breloom isn't as great as Bulu and Kartana other than "they all use fighting + grass moves and spore is not good." The replay on the previous page did show Breloom putting in work in a situation where Kartana and possibly Bulu would have lost in (after the heat wave miss). I'm not saying Breloom is great or even good, but please do try provide better and more in depth explanations for why someone should or should not use Breloom in the current metagame.
When using Breloom this is what I'm thinking, ok so what advantage do I have over using bulu, kartana or even serperior? I have to rely on spore to set up, even though anyone else can easily counter it with other top grass type, then countering me with a poison move, making Breloom dead weight. Or them bringing in a tapu and then making it useless, then they set up with something like volcarona or clefable, can mean game for me. Now I can use Bulu, and I'm not worried about using sub or spore, and getting free damage anyway even if they switch in, and can hit flying types, with stone edge. Same with kartana, or serperior, they don't have to set up, and get free damage on switch ins. This makes my job a lot easier of breaking through teams instead of hoping spore or sub doesn't work and missing my chance to get any damage at all.

Breloom set ups are easy to counter which is the problem, cause Breloom without set ups does hardly any damage compared to bulu, kartana or serperior
 
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When using Breloom this is what I'm thinking, ok so what advantage do I have over using bulu, kartana or even serperior? I have to rely on spore to set up, even though anyone else can easily counter it with other top grass type, then countering me with a poison move, making Breloom dead weight. Or them bringing in a tapu and then making it useless, then they set up with something like volcarona or clefable, can mean game for me. Now I can use Bulu, and I'm not worried about using sub or spore, and getting free damage anyway even if they switch in, and can hit flying types, with stone edge. Same with kartana, or serperior, they don't have to set up, and get free damage on switch ins. This makes my job a lot easier of breaking through teams instead of hoping spore or sub doesn't work and missing my chance to get any damage at all.
Why do you keep comparing Breloom with other grass types,? Loom doesn't even run any grass type moves besides Spore, anyways I explained the advantadges of running Loom instead of Bulu, Kart or other Grass types in my previous comment:

Spdef Bulu is a defensively oriented mon, unlike Breloom, which is pretty much Offensive Support, both Kartana and Banded Bulu pack much weaker fighting type moves, can't just spam Substitute like Loom can, and they also don't have Spore.
Ferrothron and MVenu can't be compared to Loom for the same reason Amoongus and Tang can't, they wouldn't be used for the same reason Breloom would, they are defensive mons.

No grass type really does what Breloom does, Amoongus and Tang put people to sleep but they're passive, Serp doesn't have Spore, Pheal, nor the instant damage output that Breloom has, in fact I feel like Loom is more of a fighting type than a grass type, its grass typing is only useful so it can resist water and EdgeQuake. while Fighting gives it FPunch and MPunch STAB, and the fighting mon that comes closer to what Loom does is Buzzwole I think, but again it doesn't have PHeal and Spore.
Breloom brings much more utility to the table than both Banded Bulu and Kartana do, Spore is obviously its main attribute, but immunity to status is also good and makes the opponent think twice before clicking Toxic, WoW, or Twave, if you're running Mach Punch your team now has priority too, which is always nice.
Loom has better durability than both of them(SPDef Bulu, as commented above, is not comparable to Breloom), since Bulu gets worn down by Wood Hammer, Kartana lacks recovery and most of the times just gets OHKOed by any Special move out there, Breloom on the other hand has underwhelming bulk, but incredible recovery, Substitute, which allows Loom to take various hits, while PHeal just heals the health taken by the sub. Immunity to status conditions is also incredible, since a burn can shut down most physical attackers.
Let's remember that Kartana also invites Volcarona to set up on it, and that Stone Edge or Rock Slide are options to use on Breloom's moveset on the place of Mach Punch, Volcarona and Clef also have to fear Spore, and if you are a smart player you'll be careful enough to not waste your Spore, or to invite that Volc/Clefable for free, when that would mean game for you.

In general, the biggest argument to support the use of Breloom over Bulu or Kartana is that those mons are used for different reasons, and that Bulu and Kart can't do the same things Breloom can, thus they can't simply outclass it. I've been trying to say this since my first post, but i'll explain more clearly now, because i do feel like I didn't do my job properly on my other posts:

Breloom's role on a team is as Offensive Support, it can work as a wincon, but that's not really why you use it, the main reason to use Breloom is to support your wincon by putting things to sleep and dealing constant chip damage to the oponent with Focus Punch, a lot of things that switch into Breloom are still taking reasonable damage from it, or are threatened by Spore, and although many of them can cure themselves with Regenarator, Recovery moves, or simply passive recovery like Gterrain or Lefties, they are usually breaking down at one point, Tangrowth and Tornadus-T for example take more damage from Focus Punch than what Regen can heal, Fini takes too much damage from FPunch, and is very susceptible to being worn down, and Bulu is a nice check to Breloom, but still can be taken down by constant damage from Breloom's Focus Punch, i've won a game due to Breloom chipping down at my opponent's Bulu, which allowed me to win with my Landorus' EQ. You see what's Breloom's job on a team? it helps other Pokemon of yours to win, it damages the opponet's team until your wincon can finish the job, or it puts a threatening mon to sleep, allowing your sweeper to set up.

Kartana and Bulu on the other hand work as Breakers or as a Cleaner(in Kart's case), they can either open a hole on the opponent's team, or win in lategame after certain damage is dealt to the opposing team. Bulu comes close to what Breloom can do, but it doesn't have its main defining aspects, which are the constant damage behind sub, Status Immunity, and Spore.

I didn't mention Serperior because it and Breloom are pretty different mons, Serperior is either a sweeper with access to great speed control with Choice Scarf and Glare, or a weak SubSeeder with a potential to clean/sweep after a Substitute is up. Serp lacks the potency that Loom has, doing considerable damage only after a boost, Serp is more of a wincon too, instead of a supporting mon like Loom, although Glare is pretty nice for the team.


as robofiend requested, these are all the replays i have with breloom:


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-956344684
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-956361585 played like shit, but breloom did some stuff
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-956361585
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-956921208
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-960943179 the one on my previous post
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-972494532 dude just leaves so i have to wait lol



there's this one if you can count that a legitimate game: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-95981551
 
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I just want to point out that this whole Breloom discussion has only 1 replay to back it up. If Breloom is viable, we should at least be able to get more than 1 replay to show it being effective (or not)

edit: (I made a team using loom this afternoon out of curiosity)

In response to my call for replays:

This battle doesn't showcase Breloom too much, though when I double into Ferrothorn my opponent realizes that they're in deep shit and drops. In this scenario I get a free sub that I can either use to Punch something for >50% or I get to sleep Lando and keep on fighting. Ferrothorn is a great target for this mon unless it runs Gyro.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-973526237

Again, Breloom doesn't really shine here, but he is useful against my opponent's Bulu/Pex/Tran core. Since Loom is immune to status and can sleep Pex or Lati, my opponent has to always counter with Bulu, who isn't particularly threatening to the rest of my team either. Unlike other bulky grasses, in this matchup Breloom can shine because he doesn't fear status and gets a lot of mileage out of Poison Heal. I think he could have beat me if he would've swapped Bulu out on the second to last turn when Kommo-o is Poison Jabbing him.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-973528037

This one probably shouldn't count for anything because my opponent's running such a niche team, but Breloom does get his chance to shine at the end by sleeping Donphan and allowing Kommo to boost up without too much fear of getting RK'd by Ice Shard.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-973534454

Again, more niche ladder offense, but this one shows Breloom's mid-late-game power perfectly. I repeatedly get to sleep Scizor, Mage, and Gren to keep them from doing anything, and end up cornering him pretty effectively. I feel like this guy had a pretty good chance of beating me with Band Hoopa, which I think is what he was running, so I'm not sure why he quit unless he was scarf or something. Maybe he was running an ultra-slow set or something.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-973553866

This one's fun too. This guy's running super standard ladder offense with MGyara, Kokolucha and SG Mage - you can see it from the start. He admittedly messed up at the end by not just killing Breloom with Mage, but that opening lets Breloom break the rest of the team unassisted. People say that Koko's a great Breloom check, but it very clearly does not like taking FP's:
252+ Atk Breloom Focus Punch vs. 20 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 153-181 (53.4 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-973560019

So what do I think about ranking Breloom? I say we keep it in UR until we get better replays.

I think it's clear that just because you can use a mon in OU doesn't mean you should, or rather, that my building this team around Loom doesn't prove it's viable. My opponents as a rule played badly and many had other niche unmons on their team like Cloyster. Not to mention, I was in the 1500's for all of these, and it shows in my opponents teams.

I believe that if people actually run Breloom outside of solely proving it for the forums, then Loom's qualified for C- rank, but not much else. But I also don't believe we should just rank shit because I can show you 5 times where it works. Honestly there's shit in C- like Bronzong, Avalugg, Araquanid or Zy-10 that are straight up garbage that I've barely ever seen used and I think Breloom's at least on that tier, but I don't think we should be nomming it to C- just out of boredom. I think it's better we just move on until/unless we get some tourney or higher ladder replays.
 
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hate to say it, but your opponent played like an absolute idiot in the subtoxic salazzle game - the replay doesn't really prove anything. I could see the set having some merit, but i'm not super sold on it either. the typing is obviously insane but salazzle is so frail that even a secondary resisted move might be problematic, especially with hazards. at the same time it could probably put serious holes in some teams - it just seems like a lot to dedicate a team slot to something so situational. the set definitely has some surprise factor though.

i feel like nasty plot salazzle is more unviable. it is hard outclassed by blacephalon, and isn't going to sweep anything - the speed tier is cool but still outsped by gren, torn, scarf lando, etc. plus any priority is a huge problem.

with all that said there are some super questionable mons in c and c- so maybe it belongs there too.


on a similar note I feel like blacephalon should rise (i'd say b is probably fair, maybe b+). specs blacephalon is a massive problem for most teams if you don't have one a few specific counters like ttar. ghost resists outside of ttar and gren (which arguably doesn't count) are super rare and not much can switch into fire blast besides pex, heatran, ttar. if the blacephalon player predicts that and clicks shadow ball something is basically gone. it's obviously super frail and requires support but if you just pair it with scarf landot you can get it in fairly safely. scarf is cool too but i haven't used it much. i think blace is at least as relevant as hydreigon, hoopa, or kingdra and it is definitely better than gallade.
 
hate to say it, but your opponent played like an absolute idiot in the subtoxic salazzle game - the replay doesn't really prove anything. I could see the set having some merit, but i'm not super sold on it either. the typing is obviously insane but salazzle is so frail that even a secondary resisted move might be problematic, especially with hazards. at the same time it could probably put serious holes in some teams - it just seems like a lot to dedicate a team slot to something so situational. the set definitely has some surprise factor though.
My reasoning on ranking it is not cause of Sub-Toxic. Sub-Tox sets are kinda trash. Its very passive, requires huge amounts of support, and doesn’t break through defensive cores which is what I nommed it for. (I nommed it for its Specs and NP set) I also don’t take credit for the replay nor do I have any part of it.

i feel like nasty plot salazzle is more unviable. it is hard outclassed by blacephalon, and isn't going to sweep anything - the speed tier is cool but still outsped by gren, torn, scarf lando, etc. plus any priority is a huge problem.
I would like to point out that Salazzle outspeds Kartana and Mega-Latias which may not seem important at first but keep in mind that Blace is gonna checked if Kart comes in due to the 107/109 Speed tier difference. Blace easily OHKOs Mega-Latias after rocks but keep in mind its gonna get outsped and OHKOd by Surf after rocks. Specs Salazzle doesn’t OHKO Mega-Latias, but it at least can outspeed it and has a decent chance to 2HKO it after rocks with Specs, thus forcing a switch or Roost if Mega-Latias is lucky ensuring it won’t switch in safely again. Blace also can’t check SG Mage which is a big merit over it.

+1 252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Blacephalon: 288-339 (116.5 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Salazzle: 180-212 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Some other advantages Salazzle has over Blace is guaranteeing a 2HKO off Kommo-o, being able to 2HKO M-Ttar with HP Fighting even without rocks, and outpace Serperior.

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kommo-o: 144-170 (49.3 - 58.2%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kommo-o: 201-237 (68.8 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Salazzle Hidden Power Fighting vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 204-240 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Hidden Power Ground vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 126-150 (32.8 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock


Both can’t 2HKO AV Ttar but Salazzle doesn’t die to Pursuit from it, even after rocks and sand chip.

32 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Salazzle: 172-204 (60.3 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage

32 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 378-446 (153 - 180.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO


I would like to point out that NP Sal is a wallbreaker, not a sweeper. A wallbreaker is a mon that crushes through defensive cores, a sweeper plows through entire teams but needs its counters/checks removed first.

SD Lando, and Kyurem-Black are examples of wallbreakers.

Volcarona, Mega-Maw and SG Magearna are examples of sweepers (or wincons).

So how does Salazzle accomplish the wallbreaker role well enough to be ranked?

Well for starters, anything that isn’t OHKOd by Salazzle at +2 is poisoned by it and crippled for the rest of the game, and as for how much of the tier is OHKOd by it, well.......

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 457-538 (119.6 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kyurem-Black: 339-399 (86.7 - 102%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Overheat vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 364-429 (97.5 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 262-309 (86.1 - 101.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 358-423 (98.3 - 116.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Overheat vs. 244 HP / 188 SpD Gliscor: 384-453 (109 - 128.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 435-513 (102.5 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 277-327 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y in Sun: 252-297 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 291-342 (81.5 - 95.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Overheat vs. 252 HP / 144 SpD Hippowdon: 415-489 (98.8 - 116.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 304-358 (79.3 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Diancie-Mega: 255-301 (105.8 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 164 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 510-600 (129.7 - 152.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO


It’s quite large. Despite its frail nature, the added benefit of its typing lets it force out common OU staples like Ferro, Steela, Mage, Kart, and 3/4 of the Tapus, and also absorbing TSpikes which are a common sight on Pex balance. This set has to worry about Ttar though.

Most wallbreakers are outsped and revenged by Gren and Tornadus, and many mons in the tier are revenged by Scarf Lando so its nothing new. Only 5 Pokemon from S rank to A- rank carry priority and two of them
(
161A985A-0577-4B5C-AB3B-1D4BFAB8836D.png
0AF1ECEE-76BC-43D0-A378-0C35FE45169A.png
) can’t OHKO it and are outsped by it. Mega-Mawile has to play 50/50 mindgames with Salazzle in order to revenge it, meaning a Sucker Punch isn’t a guarantee. Torn is a good check but it still has to rely on a base 70 acc move in order to revenge it unless its hits it with Z-Hurricane. But in moments like this your opponent would question whether or not its worth to exhaust their only z-move on a mon with 68/60/60 bulk.
 
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