Resource USUM PU Viability Rankings

[MZ]

Updates are a good excuse to double post. Anyway I moved the voting slate it to a google sheets format instead for a couple of reasons. It's easier to make, it lets individual council members post opinions if they want instead of me trying to summarize everybody's feelings (although some of us were too busy to and obviously not every nomination needs a whole spiel), and I don't think it should be a significant reduction in easiness to read unless people really loved those charts. They were cute but I'm ok with this tradeoff. Feel free to criticize the format if you find anything annoying since obviously this is a bit of a new thing. Anyway, here's the new sheet.

Rises
Guzzlord S- to S
Carracosta A- to A
Ludicolo B+ to A-
Golurk B to B+
Simipour C- to C
Simisage Unranked to B-
Camerupt Unranked to D

Drops
Oricorio-Pom-Pom A+ to A
Quagsire A to A-
Persian-Alola A to B+
Aggron A- to B+
Kabutops A- to B+
Poliwrath B+ to B
Roselia B to B-
Manectric B to C+
Cradily C+ to C-
Munchlax C to C-
Liepard C+ to D
Pawniard C to D
Mr. Mime C to Unranked

The sheet has reasoning from some members for all of the nominations and links to the nominations themselves if anyone is unclear on a change, although you can always ask for more clarification on discord, on PS, in my PMs, etc. I'd like to leave Duosion Unranked to D as a discussion point since our 7 member council managed to split 50/50 on it, this mon is in perpetual limbo and we could use some real resolution. That's it though, there's likely a large tier shift coming tomorrow and I just wanted to get this update out as a final reflection on this meta just in case everything really does drastically change.

 

[Akir]

Right on the heels of the last update, we got 3 new Pokemon in PU: Ferroseed, Mega Abomasnow, and Cinccino. In the meantime for these new mons to find their place, they have been put in the "New Drops" rank. Feel free to discuss where these new drops will go.

And goodbye Mesprit, you were loved.

 

[orangebeedrill]

Mr. Meme has a niche gosh darn it!

Mr. Mime UR -> D/C-

Should I have brought this up last shift? yeah probably. But one thing that was overlooked during the last discussion on mime was how his fairy typing gives mime a 4x resistance to fighting. This means that despite having total garbage 40/65 physical defenses, mime can pretty easily switch in on and threaten out Gurdurr and Hitmonchan.

calcs

44+ Atk Gurdurr Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 79-94 (35.7 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mr. Mime Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 254-300 (67.9 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As you can see here, mime is able to cleanly switch into a knock, and then outspeed and win the 1v1 (assuming z crystal).
With rocks up it's a bit of a different story, as gurdurr knock->knock->mach has a chance to ko, so it would be up to the roll as to who wins the 1v1.
But again, this is assuming the worst case scenario where mime switches in on rocks and the gurdurr user predicts that play correctly. If Mime comes in on a drain punch, Gurdurr has absolutely no chance.
44+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 34-40 (15.3 - 18%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
The matchup with Hitmonchan is largely similar, but with a few key differences.
136+ Atk Iron Fist Hitmonchan Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 120-142 (54.2 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mr. Mime Psyshock vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 266-314 (88 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mr. Mime Psyshock vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 266-314 (88 - 103.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This time the matchup is more offensive, chan has almost no chance to ohko without significant chip, whereas mime's psyshock has a decent chance to kill even at full, and almost any amount of chip on chan will secure the ko.
Once again the fighting type moves do pretty laughable damage, so it's very much up to the chan user to predict right and get lucky in order to keep mime from switching in and claiming a kill.

This combined with it being a threat to Guzzlord and the recent psychic type vacuum means Mr. Mime has a niche and deserves to be ranked.

Gurdurr A+->S
The most recent shifts have been absolutely huge for Gurdurr and everyone is aware of that, even if council does decide to quickban Cincinno and Mega Obama, I will still stand by this nom because losing Mesprit is just that big. Other people will probably be able to argue this better than me, but I think the evidence almost speaks for itself. Mesprit was the most common and splashable Gurdurr check in the tier, and Gurdurr was already notorious for being pretty difficult to check, so now that Mes is gone, Gurdurr might just be the best mon in the tier, so we should at least put it in the top 3.


Skuntank A+->A
On the flip side of that, Mesprit leaving means skuntank is kinda bad now. It loses to all the most prominent hazard setters, which is pretty bad for a defogger, and its defensive niche is suddenly a lot worse now that the best psychic type is gone. On top of that, the new drop ferroseed completely walls it unless it runs unmove Fire Blast. while it is able to offensively pressure both Cincinno and Mega Obama, a lot of its utility as a pivot and hazard remover is gone with mes leaving, and especially if the former two get banned I personally see skunk falling off hard.


Now I know what you might be thinking, "interesting post beedrill, I sure hope you don't ruin it by nomming some awful meme nom"

Honedge UR->D/C-
In my opinion, Honedge has had a niche ever since cryo dropped, because at that point nearly every team had an ice type, and the move combo of gyro ball + shadow sneak is really threatening to a lot of teams. With Mega Obama dropping ice types have become even more ubiquitous, and Honedge can also serve as a teams normal check for Cinccino and Stoutland. Also it underspeeds Mega Obama under TR which is a plus. Again, like my other noms, I am still gonna stand by this one even if the banhammer drops because frankly steel/ghost is just that good of a typing, and hopefully I'll throw some replays on this post later to prove that.

Some smaller noms I want to make but I'm not totally confident in them/other ppl can make them better:

Musharna C->higher The go to defensive psychic type now that mes is gone, I feel like this is an obvious nom but I personally haven't used mushy a ton because it still lacks a lot of the splashability and role compression of the late and great mes.

Oricorio Pom-Pom A->A+ With Gurdurr being so much better now pom pom has also become more valuable as a team slot, but it's still not at the prime that it was in during the lilli meta, and it's checks in regi eel and guzz are still very prominent so I'm not as certain about this nom.

 

[TTK]

Haven't made a VR post in a while and I'd love to get my own thoughts and nominations out of the way but before I do that, I'll have to express my own opinions regarding some of the latest nominations

Honedge UR->D/C-
In my opinion, Honedge has had a niche ever since cryo dropped, because at that point nearly every team had an ice type, and the move combo of gyro ball + shadow sneak is really threatening to a lot of teams. With Mega Obama dropping ice types have become even more ubiquitous, and Honedge can also serve as a teams normal check for Cinccino and Stoutland. Also it underspeeds Mega Obama under TR which is a plus. Again, like my other noms, I am still gonna stand by this one even if the banhammer drops because frankly steel/ghost is just that good of a typing, and hopefully I'll throw some replays on this post later to prove that.

I don't really agree with this at all tbh. I get the general gist of this nom is that Honedge is an "ice resist" and ice types are on every team. Honedge is hardly a reliable ice resist. Aurorus bops this with Earth Power thanks to Honedge non-existent Spdef stat, Rotom just Volt Switches and also 2hkos. I will admit thanks to its good defence stat, it can handle alolaslash and physical maboma but thats about it. I also don't really think Honedge underspeeding maboma under TR is that impressive, since TR maboma isn't really the best way to run the mon and also Blizzard still 2hkos Honedge. We also have better Normal resists in the tier like Regirock, who isn't vulnerable to Knock Off and doesn't lose to Stoutland. There just isn't much reason to use this and despite the fact Steel/Ghost has many resistances, it's still weak to common typings in the tier like Ground, Fire and Dark.

I'm leaving Mime for now because I know someone can probably argue that mon better than I but I really wanted to argue against Honedge getting ranked because it's not good. Now time for my own nominations.

(D to like C c'mon): I realise Camerupt just got ranked but I think it can go even higher. Fire/Ground on its own is nearly unresisted in the tier outside of Altaria (which gets bopped by hp ice on the switch), Swanna (who dies to Eruption after rocks) and Oricorio-F (the digimon), meaning this mon has zero switchins in the tier outside unmons like Munchlax, which is pretty good. I'm not saying any higher due to its really poor speed and frailty but this mon shouldn't be D.

(D to C/C+): I still confused why this mon is still D tbh. Beheeyem has always had a niche of setting its own Trick Room and being decently bulky to do so reliably. 125 base Spatk is no joke and access to Nasty Plot just amplifies it. Mesprit leaving the tier is allowing other niche Psychic types like Musharna and Beheeyem to shine. Also, being able to 1v1 Guzzlord under TR with Colbur (one of its biggest checks) is really good and being stuck in D with the likes of pretty niche mons like Ditto and Pawniard is unfitting for this mon.

(B to B-): Haunter is really really struggling and this mon doesn't really offer much to teams. The Scarf set just lacks any damage and is only useful for crippling passive mons like Quagsire with Trick. You are also the same speed as the most common scarfer in the tier, which you do not kill from full while you die if you've taken the slightest of chip damage. Life Orb is outclassed by Specs Jelli, who has a higher damage output and who doesn't fold to non-STAB Knock Offs. Haunter's lack of defensive utility and overall lack of damage without a Life Orb or Specs (unset btw) makes it warrant a drop tbh when there's much better Ghost-types in the tier.

Regarding our new drops (excluding the possibility of Cinccino/maboma getting quickbanned), I wouldn't be surprised to see Cinccino being around A thanks to its speed tier, good damage and good movepool, maboma being around A/A- due to its high damage output and the fact you can beat certain threats you can outspeed prior to mega evolving and Ferroseed being a solid mon again at A/A- as well.

 

[termi]

(D to like C c'mon): I realise Camerupt just got ranked but I think it can go even higher. Fire/Ground on its own is nearly unresisted in the tier outside of Altaria (which gets bopped by hp ice on the switch), Swanna (who dies to Eruption after rocks) and Oricorio-F (the digimon), meaning this mon has zero switchins in the tier outside unmons like Munchlax, which is pretty good. I'm not saying any higher due to its really poor speed and frailty but this mon shouldn't be D.

You're massively overplaying what Camerupt can do. First of all, just because nothing particularly common can switch into either STAB doesn't mean that there isn't stuff that can reliably check it. AV Guzzlord for example is a fantastic mon that at worst gets 3HKO'd by Earth Power while resisting Eruption and Fire Blast, Jellicent can come in on Earth Power and threaten with a Scald OHKO depending on if it outspeeds, and because Camerupt relies on Choice Specs just having a Ground immunity plus a sturdy Fire resist is enough to keep it at bay somewhat. More problematic is the fact that its lack of speed and bulk gives it very few opportunities to do big damage before it goes down, only particularly slow teams (which imo are just bad) and specific mons that don't run good coverage for it like bulky Froslass and Eelektross give it the opportunity to do much. I could possibly see Camerupt rising a bit because it can exploit Ferroseed, but since that thing only just dropped and we don't know what its exact impact on the meta will be, I'd hold off from making that argument for now. Camerupt is not terrible, but it's extremely hard to justify when ultimately it's just an OK-ish matchup dependent breaker that forces you to build your team around it because of how little team support it offers of its own.

(B to B-): Haunter is really really struggling and this mon doesn't really offer much to teams. The Scarf set just lacks any damage and is only useful for crippling passive mons like Quagsire with Trick. You are also the same speed as the most common scarfer in the tier, which you do not kill from full while you die if you've taken the slightest of chip damage. Life Orb is outclassed by Specs Jelli, who has a higher damage output and who doesn't fold to non-STAB Knock Offs. Haunter's lack of defensive utility and overall lack of damage without a Life Orb or Specs (unset btw) makes it warrant a drop tbh when there's much better Ghost-types in the tier.

This nomination is completely bizarre. For one, saying Scarf Haunter "lacks any damage" when it hits about as hard with Sludge Bomb as Modest Scarf Mesprit does with Psychic while hitting a better speed tier (outspeeds SS Omastar!) is kinda ridiculous. I don't see why Haunter speed tying with Primeape is at all relevant to its viability either. The fact that you say Life Orb is outclassed by Specs Jellicent shows that you do not understand what "outclassed" means because these Pokemon function very differently and have different boons. Specs Jellicent has more bulk and more raw power with Specs Water Spout, but it's also vastly slower and forced to lock itself into moves whereas Haunter is free to switch moves, making it way more capable of whittling down bulky teams that can't handle its combination of high speed and strong coverage. It also has access to Substitute + Pain Split to exploit bulky cores even more or Destiny Bond to try and take a check like Skuntank down with it. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to a Haunter drop, but your arguments fail to make any sort of point and show that you haven't properly considered what its actual merits in the meta might be.

Also, I would honestly hold off on nominating anything for a bit if I were any of you. Losing Mesprit and gaining Ferroseed plus two offensive threats that may or may not end up getting quickbanned leaves the meta in a volatile state, I get that losing its biggest check and gaining a thing it can check may make Gurdurr seem like an obvious S rank candidate, but let's wait and see how people fill up the void left by Mesprit before doing anything rash.

 

[TTK]

This nomination is completely bizarre. For one, saying Scarf Haunter "lacks any damage" when it hits about as hard with Sludge Bomb as Modest Scarf Mesprit does with Psychic while hitting a better speed tier (outspeeds SS Omastar!) is kinda ridiculous. I don't see why Haunter speed tying with Primeape is at all relevant to its viability either. The fact that you say Life Orb is outclassed by Specs Jellicent shows that you do not understand what "outclassed" means because these Pokemon function very differently and have different boons. Specs Jellicent has more bulk and more raw power with Specs Water Spout, but it's also vastly slower and forced to lock itself into moves whereas Haunter is free to switch moves, making it way more capable of whittling down bulky teams that can't handle its combination of high speed and strong coverage. It also has access to Substitute + Pain Split to exploit bulky cores even more or Destiny Bond to try and take a check like Skuntank down with it. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to a Haunter drop, but your arguments fail to make any sort of point and show that you haven't properly considered what its actual merits in the meta might be.

So quick to counter what I have to say and you've missed the point completely. I think my point about being the same speed as scarf ape is perfectly valid. It does hurt haunter to be the same speed because its kill or be killed. Messing with rng in that matchup is not reliable at all. And saying idk what outclassed means clearly isnt necessary to say at all but oh well, not surprised tbh.

Also, I'm pretty sure I've acknowledged its merits in the meta. It is still a fast attacker with ground immunity and good offensive typing and is also a spinblocker. I think this just shows you fail to see the flaws of this pokemon which outweigh the pros. You mention subsplit plus d bond but froslass just does that better. That is neither haunter's best set nor lass' best set but you see the point. There are more consistent offensive ghost types in the tier and haunter isnt one of them. You even say you wouldnt mind haunter dropping and I think my post gave decent points about why it should drop.

Regarding Camerupt, I have nothing to say. You literally repeat what I said regarding its negatives plus adding av guzz and jelli, which didnt really add anything.

The only thing I agree with in your post is not nomming anything yet but why not provoke some discussion in this thread? It's not "rash" or anything of the sort.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I'm really not sold on gurdurr to S. Mesprit was honestly just a "check" or a revenge killer, besides being a setter I really think it's nonsense to call scarf mes a check completely needing it's item to actually support the team outside of healing wish.
It did prevent gurdurr from bulking up turn 1 and did revenge, but I find it silly to think it's the only reasonable mon to do either. S- only seems fair cause with mesprit and current changes frolass might also be S- as well as guzz. I support all being S- over S
Gurdurr to S-

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Qwilfish to A+

I think qwilfish will be hands down the biggest winner from ALL these changes, Silvally is more tempted to run flamethrower over thunderbolt, gurdurr gets stopped, check to physical snow and band cinno, being able to trade with tail slap and not care to much about bullet seed/u turn.

It wins the hazard war vs ferroseed and isn't weak to hitmonchan(t punch, but scouting) like all the setters besides mudsdal and ghosts.

Think all these meta changes are ridiculously in it's favor in a meta where bulky offense and fighting mons are in the drivers seat and between t spikes/taunt/speed it really doesn't risk set up bait like some mons

 

[Yoshi]

I don't have any nominations or insights to make nor am I an authoritative figure but I was reading through these recent nominations and I think it is absurd that we're even making nominations just a few days after we've lost one of the most influential Pokemon the tier had. There's little to no physical evidence to base these nominations off of, and is purely speculation. If you find yourself saying things like "I think x Pokemon will be affected by these changes the most" then you probably shouldn't be making a VR post just in general. Again, I'm not an authoritative figure or anything but you should most definitely wait at least two weeks with these recent changes, especially since the meta is so volatile and up in the air. While yes, you can speculate that certain Pokemon like Qwilfish and Gurdurr are going to get better with Mesprit's absence, there's no way of knowing what other meta changes might occur. Maybe we'll see the rise of more Gurdurr and Qwilfish checks due to the absence of Mesprit, making it harder to call for a rise on these Pokemon.

Now I'm obviously not in charge of this thread or anything so don't take my word as a final say but I mean seriously, lol.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I agree with You whole heartedly, but there has to be a starting point and that's not some exact science as much as from play testing and labbing that can vary with time. Many people I assume think I'm pretty full of shit but I think the critical importance of offering up ideas is still worthwhile IF everyone actually debates and progresses.

There's no one person here who is a master of all pokemon who can go around throwing out the most fire teams for each archetype able to always play every set in every viable team structure+lures.

Think this tier is collective knowledge to aid in quickly building new and seasoned players and the tier is theoretically to big for someone to have 100% hammered out. Like off hand what were the best cores that didn't lose to hail and stall even during mesprit?

I think most people thought about and waited Yoshi. Idk have decent respect for these people and I'm sure they agree with You as well.

 

[MZ]

The council unanimously agreed to start Ferroseed at A rank. While it may not be as good at checking the strongest threats in the tier since the last time we had it (Guzz, Gurdurr, and Eel are not super troubled by it to name a few), it still blanket checks half of the meta and provides more utility than almost any other mon with auto chip damage from iron barbs, spikes, leech seed, knock off, thunder wave, etc.

 

[rien]

I'll start by saying I really like the new spreadsheet, this is a great way of providing insight while keeping things tidied up and easy to read.

Some quick noms that I think would be relevant even with Guzz potentially leaving the tier:

A > A+
I've been wanting to make this nom for a while. Eelektross has so much going for it; Excellent typing and ability, great natural bulk, good mixed offensive stats enhanced further by an excellent movepool, slow Volt Switch, etc. Being able to offensively pressure a lot of mons while still functioning as a blanket check for many others and being able to pivot out of potentially bad switchins early-game while generating momentum makes it extremely easy to fit on a wide range of teams and playstyles. Having a very solid PUPL record (#5 in usage, positive winning rate) further solidifies its place as a top-tier mon imo.

A > A+
Another mon that deserves a higher VR ranking due to how well it performs its role and how easy it is to fit on teams. While it can stuggle late-game as it doesn't like getting locked into any specific move, the incredible momentum is generates early-game for offense thanks to U-turn, as well as its good offensive presence which allows it to be a decent wallbreaker once its checks are out, makes it an invaluable part of many teams.

B > B+
Very decent spinner that allows for nice versatility when building spikestacking teams. While its lackluster Defense and typing means it's not as easy to use as Sandslash-Alola and Hitmonchan, its excellent Speed, reliable recovery, and ability to pressure common spinblockers like Froslass and Jellicent as well as Fighting-type checks like Pom-Pom and Vic warrant it enough of a niche to be considered over the aforementioned spinners.

A+ > A
While it still preforms very well as a spinner, the increased prevalence of Fighting-types since the Mesprit rise, as well as Hidden Power Fire and other Fire coverage being everywhere thanks to Ferroseed dropping, means it's slightly less consistent than it used to be and no longer sets the bar for other spinners to follow.

Gurdurr A+->S
The most recent shifts have been absolutely huge for Gurdurr and everyone is aware of that, even if council does decide to quickban Cincinno and Mega Obama, I will still stand by this nom because losing Mesprit is just that big. Other people will probably be able to argue this better than me, but I think the evidence almost speaks for itself. Mesprit was the most common and splashable Gurdurr check in the tier, and Gurdurr was already notorious for being pretty difficult to check, so now that Mes is gone, Gurdurr might just be the best mon in the tier, so we should at least put it in the top 3.

I highly disagree. While it's unarguably a great mon, its lack of set variety means it can be easily stopped dead in its tracks by Pom-Pom, Victreebel, and offensive Silvally-Fairy just to name a few, while its general vulnerability to special attacks still limits its switch-in opportunities. Losing one check and gaining another mon to abuse is not enough to warrant a rise to S imo.

 

[MZ]

We're going to do a VR update over the weekend and I just wanted to post some council nominations that we've discussed internally and will vote on. Not all of them are mine, nor do I necessarily agree with all of them, I just prefer not voting on a lot of secret things.

Victreebel A- to A: One of the ones I'm not a fan of, but it's hard to deny how impossible it is to wall Victreebel. It's only limited by offensive pressure and the amount of times it can switch in.

Alolan Persian B+ to A-: This thing fell off really hard because Guzzlord dropped. Guzzlord un-dropped. Fighting types are still more common and annoying than before (like we have more scarf ape and gurdurr running around) so this probably isn't going back to A+ just yet, but it's undeniably one of the biggest winners of the Guzzlord ban.

Throh C+ to B-: This is still mediocre but people keep showing off you can do some fun stuff with it. Throh is limited by how much people can get out of it, and recently with things like this people seem to be optimizing it to a greater degree.

Combusken B to B+: Sometimes it'll just win and that's a pain. Honestly I still don't think it should rise because it's kinda hit or miss and hasn't done anything recently (3 uses and 2 wins in PUPL lol) but yeah it was brought up.

Drampa B+ to A-: Lost a big competitor and is certainly a nice go-to mon for "pick this and you get a kill". Like Throh it can be difficult to use and kind of depends on what people get out of it which is why I'm reticent to move it up, but a well-optimized Drampa is pretty scary.

Musharna C to C+: This is mostly theorycraft from how much it likes our last 2 big losses, but apparently HJAD actually used it and says we've got it mildly undervalued so idk

 

[tom holland]

Hello, since vr updates are happening this week I am going to make this post now instead of later. There are some pokemon I am confident are being misrepresented by the rankings rn, mainly just due to lack of exposure. There are also past noms I strongly agree with.

Unranked -> at least C-, if not higher
Grumpig is a very big winner of the current meta, and I am honestly surprised no one has noticed it until recently. Some of the largest threats in the tier currently are Victreebel, Hailcore, and powerful Fire Types (aka Simisear and Combusken). Also with the relevance of Fighting Types right now, having the niche of checking those is a strong asset to have as well. With all of this said, now imagine a pokemon with the ability to switch into Hailcore, Fire Types, and somewhat Victreebel as well as check Fighting Types while remaining fairly healthy throughout the match not being ranked. Also, consider the scarcity of Psychic Types in the tier as well as the lack of Psychic resists on teams due to a scarcity of these Psychic Types. Grumpig has the niche of being a glue mon which can do all of the above while also being fairly threatening offensively still with Psychic+Focus Blast. If you are unfamiliar with what I think is the best set for Grumpig, it is this.

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Grumpig @ Mago Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 124 HP / 48 Def / 156 SpA / 180 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recycle
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Calm Mind / Taunt / Shadow Ball

I have explained the ev's in the underrated sets thread, but for clarity, 156 SpA Modest 2HKO's AV Hitmonchan with Psychic and 2HKO's Skuntank with Focus Blast after Stealth Rock. 180 Spe allows you to outspeed Victreebel and OHKO it with Psychic, and the remaining is invested in bulk. 124 HP and 48 Def is there specifically because it is how you survive two Pursuits from non-Choice Band or Black Glasses Skuntank with the most HP ev's possible out of the remaining ev's. Also for clarification, the reason it only somewhat switches into Victreebel is because it really would rather not tank a Bloom Doom, but besides for that it can switch in if it must, I just personally think it is a very bad idea to make Grumpig your only Victreebel answer. Here are the calcs for what I mentioned.

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156+ SpA Grumpig Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Skuntank: 153-180 (43.9 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (admittedly, this is without black sludge and for rocky helmet variants, though you still have a fair chance with black sludge recovery, and if he keeps using pursuit it is a 4hko when you're at full health anyways.)
252 Atk Skuntank Pursuit vs. 124 HP / 48 Def Grumpig: 138-164 (41.5 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
156+ SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victreebel: 308-366 (102.3 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
156+ SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hitmonchan: 144-170 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

tldr, Grumpig is a hailcore answer, fire type answer, fighting check and somewhat of a vic answer all in one team slot with fairly reliable recovery, and because of this compression maintained with a fairly relevant offensive presence, it should definitely be ranked C-, if not higher.

note: I don't have replays because they are replays which highlight teams I am still using in PU Open, and I rushed this to fit it in before votes happen. If you feel it is NECESSARY to see replays though, I will scramble for some.

Unranked -> D or C-
Before you immediately scroll past this and think it is an unmon, realize I do not think Sticky Web variants are good. I actually am one to think the niche of Masquerain is a role of a quiver dance sweeper. I think Sticky Webs is not in a good place for this meta, and while it can work it is on the fringe. This is the set I think makes Masquerain viable:

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Masquerain @ Buginium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- Scald

This mon is extreme on its pros and cons. It is an extremely threatening sweeper which is capable of snowballing through teams with its coverage and one-time nuke with savage spin out. With Intimidate and a Z-crystal, you are a Gurdurr answer when rocks are off your side of the field, which is always a great asset to have, especially on an offensive pokemon where it is not an expected asset to have. This pokemon can turn the tables of a match in your favor in a matter of a couple well-played turns. However, it is undeniable that the 4x stealth rock weakness is a huge hindrance to it, and it also requires some team support to set up quiver dances reliably. Essentially, Masquerain is a risk+reward sweeper that you need to build around for it to function, but with the correct support and player it is a huge threat.

People exaggerate the amount of support this pokemon needs. The only true support necessary is reliable entry-hazard removal, and some sort of setup-enabler. This typically means one really solid defogger and a memento-user for me, or a defogger+spinner if you aren't comfortable with that. This really is not too many extra roles to pressure yourself with in building when you consider you should have reliable removal anyways, and some very viable pokemon can fit in memento, parting shot, or use screens.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-949379084
Masquerain shows how easily it is to set up and sweep in this replay, and while the crab would have ko'd with Ice Hammer, flinch chance+miss chance actually did make the odds skew closer to a 50/50.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-939678452
This one is probably one of the best showcases of Masquerain in my opinion

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-949523015-0hno9s0zjs6ueg5mjpterehuih55uwepw
Another pretty decent replay of masq, I don't think the flinch mattered too much in this game.

tldr, masq is a really great sweeper and still has some defensive utility. It requires some support sure, but the support pays off well. This makes it worthy of being D or C-

-----
Some noms I strongly support
Combusken B to B+: The swords dance set is a THREAT and with its versatility of z-crystal and the coverage option in thunder punch, it becomes that much more scary to face. Also, tlenit1 has showcased just how threatening and relevant sub/protect special attacking combusken is. With Toxic Spam+this combusken, you can wear down the combusken answers and clean pretty easily. Many people can attest to the success of the team Brobusken tlenit created, where Combusken is the star.
Victreebel A- to A: Terrifying mon, without a dedicated special wall this thing can pretty consistently grab a KO every game. Paired with Stoutland, it becomes one of the most unstoppable offensive cores to face right now. Its ability to switch into fighting types give it more opportunities to cause a riot and makes it that much more threatening in a game.

-----
Thank you for reading this! And thanks for all the hard work everyone puts into these rankings.

 

[MZ]

That VR update took a hot sec but it gave Taskr time to vote so worth. Here's the sheet.

Rises:
Eelektross A to A+
Oricorio-Pom-Pom A to A+
Victreebel A- to A
Alolan Persian B+ to A-
Drampa B+ to A-
Throh C+ to B-
Musharna C to C+
Camerupt D to C-
Mr. Mime Unranked to D

Drops:
Skuntank A+ to A

There are reasonings in the sheet and most of this was fairly well telegraphed as a response to Guzzlord and Mesprit leaving (Skunk worse, Mush better, etc. etc.). Much more on the rises side but I don't really see the VR as top-heavy yet even though that was what I was expecting here.

A few discussion points from the vote: Cryogonal B to B+ went 50/50, how do people feel about offensive Cryo? Gurdurr A+ to S was also pretty close, I personally wanted to wait and see a bit with more Slam (maybe Snake) but what's the feeling on Gurdurr prep?

 

[UberSkitty]

AAAAAAAhelloAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Rises:

Gurdurr: A+ -> S
First of all, Mesprit left, so there's one of its biggest checks for Gurdurr out of the way. However, even with Mesprit in the meta I've found myself having to add multiple checks for Fighting-types, with this mon being the main cause. It runs Knock Off which causes difficulty for both Psychic- and Ghost-types to come in, and can run Toxic to wear down foes that don't mind Knock Off as much such as Silvally-Fairy. If not running Toxic, Gurdurr is able to finish off weakened teams with its combination of Bulk Up and Mach Punch. This is all on top of its STAB choice, Drain Punch, being able to somewhat keep it healthy. It is also a solid check for physical attackers including but not limited to Lycanroc, Stoutland, and Kangaskhan, all of which it can use as setup bait. On top of Mesprit leaving being an obvious benefit, this also has led to people refraining to using Stealth Rock setters like Regirock, Ferroseed, and Alolan Sandslash, all of which can be taken advantage of by Gurdurr. Overall, Gurdurr is a Pokemon that is so hard to reliably check on teams, and I believe it deserves its place in the S-rank.

Aurorus: A -> A+
This mon remains to be an amazing wallbreaker with its Choice Specs set. However, I believe its highlight set is Choice Scarf. This set is able to creep base 110 Speed Pokemon like Dodrio, Froslass, and Alolan Raichu, while being able to still hit decently hard thanks to Blizzard, on top of the rest of its solid coverage. Hail cores with Alolan Sandslash are also great and always something that needs to be thought about when teambuilding. Oh yeah there's also that Stealth Rock set, so that's just an addition to its already existing two great sets.

Type: Null: B+ -> A-
Type: Null is simply a great special wall. Even with all the Ghost-types in the tier it can easily just U-turn out, which is the better set over Swords Dance. While Restalk isn't very unique, it works wonders on Type: Null, allowing it to be cured from status conditions like Toxic and heal off any damage done. It also makes this mon one of the best defensive answers for Jynx, and speak of the devil...

Jynx: B+ -> A-
Jynx is another Pokemon that benefited from Mesprit leaving as that takes away one of its large competitors. Furthermore in this newer meta, Pokemon like Skuntank and Lycanroc aren't as good, which could otherwise revenge kill Jynx with their priority. Certain mons like Choice Scarf Swanna are being overtaken by slower Choice Scarf mons like Aurorus, which makes Z-Lovely Kiss even better. Jynx also has plenty of options for its last slot between Nasty Plot, Focus Blast, and Substitute, making it hard to reliably check defensively, especially with its great STAB combo.

Alolan Persian: A- -> A
Before Guzzlord dropped, this mon was A+. While that ranking at the moment is debatable, Alolan Persian remains to be a great pivot with Parting Shot and good sweeper with Nasty Plot. This is thanks to its high Speed, a solid moveset in both offensive and support, and its ability, Fur Coat.

Musharna: C+ -> B
With Mesprit leaving, Musharna has is on its way to being the best bulky Calm Mind user. Its bulk allows it to serve as a solid check to many mons too, and can be hard to check once setup due to its solid coverage in Dazzling Gleam. It also has recovery in Moonlight, which is nice for preventing being worn down. It does get some competition from Clefairy as a Calm Mind user, but that isn't the better Clefairy set at the moment and it can be crushed by physical mons anyway.

Duosion: UR -> D
Ok. Ok. Ok. Here me out. These changes in the meta have basically all benefited Duosion. Mesprit was Duosion's main competition and Guzzlord was a high ranking Dark-type, both of which are now gone. Next, Ferroseed has dropped, which is easy setup bait for Duosion since it doesn't have to worry about Leech Seed. Finally, with Mesprit being gone, Dark-types in general are lowering in usage and viability. Otherwise, I won't get into any detail on Duosion's niches, since I think we all know them by now.

Drops:

Stoutland: A+ -> A
My first nom on this thread and now I'm nominating it back down. While Stoutland can bust through teams without a Normal resist, those are on almost every team now, between Regirock, Alolan Sandslash, and Ferroseed. But the big reason is that I just struggle to justify using it over Kangaskhan on a lot of my teams, the access to priority moves is just so hard to give up. Still a great option, just a little outclassed.

Articuno: A- -> B+
This is an overdue drop. Lilligant is gone, so what does this mon do? It's good on stall but that alone isn't going to keep it at A-. Offensively, there are just better Ice-types like Aurorus, same with defensively with mons like Alolan Sandslash. It doesn't even really beat any notable offensive mons, unless I'm missing something.

Carbink: C+ -> C
This mon is just going back in forth between being a niche check for a large threat and just a Trick Room setter. Now that Guzzlord is gone, it's back to being that Trick Room setter, which isn't a particularly good playstyle.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAbyeAAAAAAAA

 

[termi]

carbink was c+ before guzzlord dropped, it never benefited from guzzlord dropping since non-specs sets wanted to run heavy slam anyway. also, afaik carbink's niche that got it where it is rn has always been sr setter on stall teams cuz it's like the only thing that doesnt shit itself and die vs drampa, so i rly dont think ur argument holds any water. ok peace

 

[Sir Pin]

There seems to be some debate about Gurdurr rising to S and while there's definitely some good arguments for it, I myself am leaning more towards it remaining in A+, and to show why I'll be taking a look at what it takes to be an S-rank mon. For this I'll be using Froslass and previous S-rank mons in their respective metas as case studies and seeing how Gurdurr compares.

Firstly is the great difference in versatility. Mesprit, Skuntank, Lilligant, Pyroar etc all had multiple sets that kept opponent's guessing when facing them, making them much trickier to check and play around. Meanwhile Gurdurr only has one very linear set with one or two deviations at maximum. This set is very effective yes, and there have been cases of S-rank mons with only one set (Archeops, Ferroseed) but both of these were extremely effective at their role to the point that they had no or real roadblocks/counters when it came to accomplishing said role. Gurdurr on the other hand has a predictable set which is again very effective at its role but can be checked or countered by several high-ranking threats. These include Victreebel, Silvally-Fairy (both of which are particularly common rn) Qwilfish, Oricorio-E, and to a lesser extent Oricorio-G, Sableye and Quagsire. In short, not as versatile, and not as potent, as previous S-ranks.

The definition for the S rank is that the "S rank contains Pokémon that define a particular tier, being able to perform a role (or more) extremely well and lack glaring flaws which prevent them from being effective in said roles". In some ways this statement remains largely true for Gurdurr: with the absence of Mesprit and Guzzlord, and the fall of Skuntank, Gurdurr has perhaps become one of if not the defining Pokémon of the tier. However, for Froslass, the current S-rank mon, all of this statement is true: it is not only highly versatile, with multiple sets that contribute towards its viability, but can perform its role as a Spikes setter/spinblocker extremely well. It is also very splashable, distinctively more so than Gurdurr, due to it's lack of glaring flaws. Meanwhile Gurdurr's role as a 'bulky attacker' does not always perform well, rarely as well as other S-rank mons, due to it's higher number of checks and lower splashability. Consequently Gurdurr does not yet feel like S-rank material imo.

B+ -> A-

When prepping for Fighting-types now this is probably my go-to mon. Being able to switch in to such prevalent threats as Gurdurr and Primeape and force a switch and potentially get a free setup and sometimes sweep just feels so valuable. In terms of usage it was the 3rd most used mon at both the 1630 and 1760 elos at around 20% usage which goes to show how splashable it is. Both the Defog and SD sets are very effective rn, Defog being able to threaten would-be threats such as Victreebel, Qwilfish, Ferroseed and Alolan Sandslash with its Electric/Fire coverage. I've seen a lot of variation on this mon too, people running tech like Thunder Wave, offensive spreads, defensive spreads, SD on the Defog set, Parting Shot on the SD set, it can be really difficult to know what this mon is running when facing it. Yeah Guzzlord's left but that's caused a rise in both Alolan Persian and Drampa usage, two more mons that Silvally-Fairy can switch into and offensively pressure.

In terms of other mons,
I agree with Musharna rising to at least B-. I didn't really use this mon prior to the nom but after trying it out I was surprised by how bulky it is. It hardly has any competition as both a bulky Psychic-type and a bulky Calm Mind user and performs both of these roles as well if not better than expected. Sensu rising to A- seems fair too, seeing how it dropped a long time ago and largely because it had become less effective in a meta where Victreebel and Fighting-types weren't as common as they are now. Finally there's a couple mons in B- that I feel are slightly better or worse than their rank reflects but I'll wait to see how the meta changes.

 

[tom holland]

Hi, I have comments on some previous noms and also one nom of my own. Also, thoughts on Fighting Type prep right now. No grumpig update yet.

Gurdurr: stay in A+
It is undeniable that Gurdurr is one of the best mons in the tier and one of the most important ones to prepare for in teambuilder. However, I also think people are giving it more credit than it should when they say it is S rank material. I agree that it is good at what it does as a bulky setup-sweeper, as well as a physical blanket check. However, where I disagree is when people say that it is incredibly hard to check and hard to deal with in teambuilder. We have a plethora of options to use as Gurdurr checks still, and they are all very viable choices. There are also other mons which have rose to the occasion to deal with Gurdurr better that people often overlook such as Musharna. In general when the argument is that it does its job well and is an important mon, it just doesn't cut it. Stoutland does its job well and is an important mon, as is Victreebel, Mudsdale, etc. There is nothing else behind this really and I think it is genuinely just being a tad overhyped and given credit for things that actually should be given to Fighting Types as a whole, which I will discuss more in this post later.

Musharna: C+ to B-
I definitely agree with this. I think if there is anyone that you should be talking to about discussion of Musharna it should be gum because gum is a big fan of Musharna and is very knowledgeable of all the sets, however I will share my brief thoughts. Obviously when fighting types are more dominant that gives Musharna a bigger purpose, and also when Mesprit is gone Musharna is no longer overlooked. It has fantastic bulk and surprising offensive prowess, so even in games where there isn't a Gurdurr or Hitmonchan it is definitely not dead weight. Between healing wish and moonlight, you can expect Musharna and its teammates to stay in the fight longer than a typical build would. My current favorite set of this mon is the Z-Future Sight set, but yeah basically I think this mon is great and I endorse this also ask Gum for insight too bc I think Gum has more knowledge on discussion of this than me.

Stoutland: stay in A+ (please)
Nothing has changed for Stoutland in my opinion. It is incredibly powerful still and forms one of the best offensive cores in the game (Victreebel+Stoutland). I think Stoutland and Kangaskhan should never be compared, and normal resists are not much of a problem in games when there are teams where Stoutland is dedicated to wear down those normal resists for another teammate like Lycanroc (another legendary core). This mon has not changed at all and has been a consistent threat, and it would be an injustice to drop this to A.

----
my own nom

Oricorio-Sensu: B+ to A-
I really would be surprised if this is just me, but there are so many instances where I see myself sticking Oricorio-Sensu on teams because of its immense role compression right now. Fighting Types and Victreebel have become even more prominent and important to deal with in teambuilder than ever, and Oricorio-Sensu is a Gurdurr switchin, soft counter to primeape, check to hitmonchan, and consistent switchin to Victreebel. Added onto this is the fact that it works as a stallbreaker and wallbreaker for teams too, meaning it is more than just glue for teams. It is very easy to slap this on a team and add another Fighting check, and then suddenly in two team slots you have covered some of the most important roles on team checklists right now. While Skuntank is still threatened by Oricorio-Sensu, it sure is nice that it declined since the meta changes, as Oricorio did not like relying on hurricane to threaten it, and when it also can have Pursuit or be Choice Band Pursuit even. Not only that, but the favored Skuntank set now is special Skuntank in my opinion, which means there is little worry now about being pursuit-trapped. I think there has been a lot of factors which contribute together to make this mon deserving of a rise to the A- category.

----

thoughts on Gurdurr/Fighting Type prep since Mzard mentioned it as a potential discussion point

So I think that fighting type prep has gotten to a point where you need two fighting checks per team, and at least one of them being a switchin. For example, slapping a Victreebel on a team and calling it a day will not suffice for Fighting Type prep. You cover Gurdurr reliably but you lose to a well-played Primeape. To throw a wrench in this even more, I think the best set right now on Hitmonchan is Choice Band or Life Orb Chan without Rapid Spin and instead Ice Punch, and when this becomes popular (as it should or I will be bothered) Fighting prep may become even more difficult. This means stuff like Golurk+Victreebel won't cut it anymore. I think Fighting Spam is one of the best archetypes in the tier right now and I think Fighting Type prep is bonkers and uncalled for, however, I think what people are doing is blaming this issue on Gurdurr and using it as reasoning for a rise to S. As I have pointed out, Gurdurr is not the main issue here. The issue is that Gurdurr counters are not always Primeape counters, and Gurdurr+Primeape counters are not always AoA Hitmonchan answers. All of this is quite the conundrum and is making builder intense right now, and will be even worse when AoA Chan becomes more popular. However, don't blame Gurdurr, blame the group as a collective whole. I say all of this to say that plz don't use fighting prep as a reason to put Gurdurr in S rank, because there are confounding variables to this Fighting prep which does not equal it being 100% a Gurdurr problem.

 

[orangebeedrill]

It appears I have provoked some controversy.

but first, some smaller yet important noms

Roselia B- -> C+
With Ferro dropping, Roselia's niche has become even more crowded, as it struggles to make its utility seem unique as it's wedged in between Qwil and Ferro in terms of defensive typing and it still struggles with its overwhelming passivity and 4mss.

Claydol B- -> B
Claydol, on the other hand, has received a pretty big boon from recent meta shifts. It's relative immunity to entry hazards already makes it a pretty solid choice of spinner in our spike-centric meta, and its ability to check fighting types gives it some nice role compression and makes it a good fit on Regirock teams. Plus the general lack of offensive grass and water types means fat ground types are in a pretty good spot overall.

Stoutland A+ -> A
I largely agree with Uberskitty's thoughts on this good boy, but one thing I'd like to add is because mesprit is gone, basically every rocker in the meta doubles as a stout check. This means stoutland is pretty naturally checked by most teams without having to go out of their way for a normal resist, and stout isn't as consistent of a breaker because of that.

My Man
I can definitely see where the A+ camp is coming from, as Gurdurr definitely is still very linear and it's checks are still pretty consistent, but I still believe Gurdurr deserves the S rank because the way it defines the meta stands far above all the A+ ranks. This is due to gurdurr's ability to just shut down teams that aren't prepared for it. Gurdurr's combination of bulk, recovery, and status immunity means it can just sit on any team that isn't properly prepared for it in a way that basically nothing else can. So while it's not as versatile as Froslass and I agree it's often more threatening in the builder than it is in the battle, I think the centralization it forces is enough to justify the S rank. In that sense however, it's not that different from how it was in past metas, so I'd just like to note a few things in this meta that signal to me just how important checking Gurdurr is

-The continued use of Colbur berry by psychic/ghost types as their preferred item despite the sharp drop in skunk usage
-The rise of Mudsdale as the definitive rocker over Regi because it doesn't invite gurdurr in as easily
-free S- (/s)

 

[Specs]

Stoutland A+ -> A
I largely agree with Uberskitty's thoughts on this good boy, but one thing I'd like to add is because mesprit is gone, basically every rocker in the meta doubles as a stout check. This means stoutland is pretty naturally checked by most teams without having to go out of their way for a normal resist, and stout isn't as consistent of a breaker because of that.

Largely disagree with this reasoning, the two rockers I assume you're mentioning are Regirock and Mudsdale (Ferroseed is alright but the lack of initial residual recovery generally means it takes a huge risk switching in multiple times, meaning it's a very situational switch in.) Regirock yeah for sure, it is a pretty solid Stoutland check. Has to watch out for Superpower of course but can generally pivot in nicely and threaten the next turn. Mudsdale however at most switches in 3 times if it's a %50 berry. You should never really have that as your go to normal check. I don't think these two being more common has affected Stoutland at all, it's still a terrifying breaker that benefits greatly from current meta trends. Such as Gurdurr being able to pivot into Regirock consistently, Eelektross giving it some much appreciated slow momentum with Volt Switch, and Victreebel being able to come in on Gurdurr & Primeape who commonly want to revenge it. Overall just don't agree with either nom to drop Stoutland, but felt like this one was just a bit more flawed, not really shining a light on how the meta has actually helped Stoutland in some regard aswell.

Would love to discuss this more if you want, feel free to reply to this or hmu in the ps room when im on!

 

[LordST]

The fabled Natu post is here (+ some house cleaning)

Natu C- -> C+
Natu used to have a decent niche in the meta way back when Ferro was originally here and Lass hadn't dropped yet. With the addition of Froslass and later Guzzlord along with unfavorable meta trends like Offensive Rocks Mesprit and the Hail core essentially made Natu unusable and it probably shoulda been unranked. However I believe the current meta offers a clear niche for Natu.

Natu can beat basically every common hazard setter right now with the only notable exception being Froslass. Yes there are some Rockers that can easily beat it like Aurorus or Golurk, but these either rarely run Rocks or are not very common to begin with. What Natu provides is basically keeping your side of the field rocks free vs the Regirock/Mudsdale/Metang Bulky Offense that gets spammed. This on top of relieving Spikes pressure from Qwilfish and Ferro can make for creative builds that would otherwise struggle a lot vs hazards.

In my opinion the best way to build with Natu is to utilize secondary hazard control. Options like Cryo, Snowslash, or Stone Edge Chan are good choices for mons that don't need to remove vs everything, they just need to be able to pressure Froslass. You can couple this with mons that don't care so much about a spike or two going up by stacking ground immunities. This is particularly nice for Oricorios and Cryo who appreciate Natu keeping rocks off.

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-954637157
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-955408268
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-954654561
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-954715643
In these replays Natu is able to successful prevent the Mudsdale, Ferroseed, or Metang from ever getting their hazards up, making each game basically unloseable once my rocks went up. Natu shows here how it can successful neuter these meta-typical bulky offense/balanced builds.

I'd urge players to try out Natu. It can open up a lot of interesting things in the building process and can be quite fun to use.

Housecleaning Section

Basculin D -> unranked
Basculin isn't terrible, but there really isn't any reason to use it over Floatzel, Swanna, or even Simipour. The assets that these three provide is always more useful than the extra power you can get out of Basculin's STAB. Floatzel's extra speed and ability to trap Froslass and Swanna's defog and dual STAB are more useful 90% of the time, and the other 10% of the time you need some scary wallbreaker Simipour will suit your needs just fine. Delete this.

Gourgeist C- -> unranked
Gourg is completely outclassed in any role you could imagine it fulfilling. As a fighting check its completely outclassed by Tangela. As a spinblocker its not nearly as effective as Sableye or Jellicent. It really can't check any of our water types reliably. This thing is just a relic of Kingler meta and has no purpose on the VR anymore.

Thoughts on other noms

Sensu to A- Agree
As Victreebel continues to become more and more popular Sensu has much more of a place in the metagame than the past. Not being able to Roost easily on Eel the way Pom-Pom can is certainly a downside, but it's presence as one of the only solid Vict checks rn shouldn't be overlooked and I believe A- would reflect that more accurately than B+.

Silv-Fairy to A- Disagree
Sure everyone may be using this on ladder, but rather than this reflecting its splashability I think it shows ladder is slow to adjust to post Guzz meta. As a fighting check Silvally is very vulnerable to hazards compared to other fighting checks that can use recovery to mitigate this such as Victreebel or Oricorio. As a Defogger it struggles with our two most common Rockers in Muds and Regi. SD Flame Charge is decent but I wouldn't say it's good enough to boost it to A-.

 

[gum]

hi, im gonna add my opinion on some of the noms and make some noms as well

a+ to s: disagree

i wont spend a lot of time on this nom as a lot of people have already covered this really well but i'd like to add something to the convo

This is due to gurdurr's ability to just shut down teams that aren't prepared for it. Gurdurr's combination of bulk, recovery, and status immunity means it can just sit on any team that isn't properly prepared for it in a way that basically nothing else can.

you could say this about every pokémon in the a-ranks. for example, if you don't have a kanga answer you're obviously gonna struggle against it. also, it's not like you have to go out of your way to find a gurdurr answer, as they're, for the most part, easy to fit on teams as they fulfill other tasks very effectively and you could've brought this point up even during mesprit meta. unrelated to this point but mes leaving was a double-edged sword for it; yes it lost a check / switchin but it also lost one of its best partner. without mesprit's hwish, gurdurr can find itself overwhelmed and unable to effectively do what it's supposed to do.

So while it's not as versatile as Froslass and I agree it's often more threatening in the builder than it is in the battle, I think the centralization it forces is enough to justify the S rank. In that sense however, it's not that different from how it was in past metas, so I'd just like to note a few things in this meta that signal to me just how important checking Gurdurr is

the centralization it caused didnt really help it. i can understand why'd you think it makes it more s-rank worthy but, gurdurr answers are very common, which makes it very hard for gurdurr to pull off a sweep and significantly lowers its threat level.

b+ to a-: agree

sensu is in a very good spot right now, it checks & forces out a ton of threats like victreebel and gurdurr which is extremely important in a meta where fighting-types and victreebel are so common. this gives it plenty of opportunities to setup and guzz leaving is extremely nice for it. eel is everywhere right now but it takes 45% from +1 revelation dance and it's just extremely easy to wear it down. also, teams are often going muds over regi as their rocker, which makes it even harder to deal with. overall, meta trends have favorited this a bit and i find myself using it more and more.

(fairy) b+ to a-: disagree

lst sniped me and i dont have much to add other than that it just tries to do too much at once. defog sets struggle to defog reliably and check fighters and runnng it as your defogger means that you're forced to use a tspikes absorber with it. also swords dance set require a certain amount of support and can rarely pull of a sweep due to how common mons like regi and qwil are and how weak it is unboosted.

b to b+: agree

cryogonal checks very threatening pokémon like pom-pom, victreebel, non-drain punch eelektross, and ludicolo and brings removal while being decently hard to switch into. this makes it somewhat easy to fit on teams and it doesnt feel "forced" on most teams. also, it's the most reliable remover we have thanks to its typing and coverage, which means no stealth rock / spikes user outside of regi can safely switch onto it. offensive sets are also very good as its coverage is impossible to switch into unless you have a dedicated special wall like articuno, audino, or type: null, and it appreciates eelektross and lanturn to a lesser extent being so common, as they're both spdef pivot that can't beat it. this plus regirock being less common make it a very good choice on a lot of teams.

b- to b: disagree

while claydol is not a bad mon by any means, it just wants to do too much at the same time which means it often finds itself overwhelmed and unable to effectively fulfill the tasks it's supposed to achieve. as a spinner, it's unable to beat common spinblockers like froslass and jellicent and, while at a type advantage, can struggle to remove stealth rock effectively against common setters like mudsdale and regirock due to its susceptibility to toxic and lack of recovery. also, ferroseed dropping really didn't help it, it's just one more entry hazards setter that beats it. it's lack of reliable recovery also leaves it overwhelmed by threats it's supposed to check like gurdurr and primeape, making it an unreliable switchin and it also just has a mediocre offensive presence. i've toyed with offensive sets and while they give it a better matchup against common rockers like regirock and mudsdale, it's disappointingly weak and it trades its bulk for more power. while offensive grass- and water-types aren't that common (although victreebel is everywhere and ludicolo is somewhat common as well), claydol struggles against other threats that are pretty common, such as eelektross, taunt cm pom-pom, np alolan persian, and the aforementioned victreebel.

c+ to b-: agree

musharna is a pretty underexplored mon, and while cm sets are solid, i think the main reason it should rise is because of offensive sets. moonlight + hwish 2 attacks is a set capable of checking various threats like gurdurr, primeape, and even victreebel to a lesser extent and withstanding hits such as stoutland's return while hitting decently hard and doing this consistently thanks to moonlight, which is extremely important in a meta full of fighting-types and they appreciate skuntank being on the decline. this allows it to 1v1 the majority of the meta outside of spdef mons and skunk while also supporting its team with healing wish. also, synchronize is good and in general makes people think twice before clicking toxic with their muds / regi / you name it. and since tom mentioned it, future sight + fighting spam is heat af, and z-future sight hits stupidly hard.

ok now time for my noms!!

a+ to s-/s

ok so this is a pretty controversial nom but i do believe eel should rise. eel is crazy good right now and soft checks a ton of stuff while being obnoxiously hard to switch into due to its insanely good coverage / utility. the majority of teams that don't have an audino or a type: null rely on a physical wallbreaker like stout and kanga to break this. it also influences the way people play, and people often tend to lead with their strong physical wallbreaker whenever they see and elektross on the opposing team. it appreciates stuff like pom-pom, muds, and even victreebel to a lesser extent being so common, as it takes advantage of all of them to gain free momentum. i'd also like to mention that this pokémon pairs insanely well with other strong threats such as stoutland, gurdurr, lycanroc, froslass, and the aforementioned victreebel. but yeah, answers to this are hard to fit onto most playstyles and it just offers so much that it's actually hard justifying not using it.

b+ to b

clef is, while still decent, nowhere as good as it once was. as a defensive pokémon, it just drains too much momentum and invites in a ton of common threats, which means it only really fits on fat passive balance builds, which aren't the best right now as they struggle with a ton of threats. it also doesn't really check special pokémon all that well anymore as they all have their way around it. victreebel 2hkoes, taunt pom-pom is common, choice specs aurorus 2hkoes if clefairy has taken any prior damage, etc. i could go on but basically it just fails to effectively do its job and just invites it to many threats due to its passivity.

b to b-

bellossom, unsurprisingly, really struggles in a meta where victreebel and pom-pom are so common. this makes pulling off a sweep really hard and it can't even switch on stuff like mudsdale and regirock as toxic is a thing. plus, when unboosted, its speed makes it very susceptible to faster threats like primeape, simisear, hail sweeper snowslash, and dodrio, which are all pretty common. guzzlord leaving didn't help it, as having moonblast allowed it to setup on non-physical sets and punished builds that relied on it as their spdef pivot.

b- to b

leafeon really appreciates recent meta trends. guzzlord getting banned really helped it, as it means it isnt forced to run double edge anymore and can instead run synthesis, which allows it to switch into some stuff and to be played more aggressively and making it harder to revenge kill with pokémon like primeape and kangaskhan. it also beats the majority of grass resists / switchins like a slightly weakened victreebel, pom-pom, sensu, cryogonal, skuntank, and even snowslash while also having a good matchup against common physical walls thanks to its typing and coverage, which makes it pretty scary for most teams to face. i swear it's good!!

c- to ur

bouffalant is a digimon wbk. in all seriousness, bouffalant kinda lost its entire niche over other normal-types with lilligant getting banned and im surprised this is still ranked. every other grass-type either beats it or can potentially cripple it, making it an unreliable check. it also doesn't like recent meta trends, and while it can do some stuff in some matchups, it's really hard to justify using over a better normal-type or grass check like stoutland and pom-pom that aren't deadweight 90% of the games.

 

[m3po]

I definitely agree with Silvally-Fairy going to A- since its one of the most dependable Fighting-checks in the tier, as well as that its able to serve its role as a Defogger and offensive pivot effectively. First of all, the only reason we use Silvally-Fairy as a Defogger is because it checks Fighting-types super well. While this thing is healthy, Fighting-types and Knock Off are basically non-existent threats to your team (aside from Gunk Shot Primeape). Yes, this thing loses to Regirock and Mudsdale, but hazard removal is there to remove hazards, not necessarily to beat the actual hazard setter in a 1v1. Also, I don't understand the issue with it not having reliable recovery; Lanturn and Eelektross don't and they are still some of the best defensive pivots in the tier.

Addressing its SD set, it's very effective in my opinion. People always expect this thing to be an offensive Defogger so they aren't ready for the combination SD + Flame Charge once their defensive tanks are down in the late-game. I've been swept by this set a couple of times and it's certainly more potent than one might think.

Rises

Absol from B- to B

This thing is an absolute beast after an SD boost, which is usually easy to set up given how many switches it forces. It is outstanding at cleaning late-game once Silvally-Fairy and Gurdurr are gone and its checks have been weakened. While its SD set is its best, Choice Band hits extremely hard and Choice Scarf can nab surprise KOs on Raichu-Alola, Froslass, and others with Pursuit. Additionally, I could easily argue why Absol is better than half the mons that are currently in B.

Leavanny from Unranked to C

Leavanny @ Buginium Z
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- X-Scissor
- Synthesis / Knock Off

Aside from being a premiere Sticky Web setter, Leavanny can be quite good as a Swords Dance sweeper. It has the STAB combination needed to neutralize many defensive behemoths including Regirock, Ferroseed, Jellicent, Lanturn, and Gurdurr, all of whom fail to threaten it back. If the C and D ranks are defined as merely having a niche, Leavanny most certainly qualifies.

leavanny calcs

+2 252 Atk Leavanny Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 192-226 (51.3 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Leavanny Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Stoutland: 271-321 (87.1 - 103.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Leavanny Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 301-355 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Leavanny Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mudsdale: 360-426 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Leavanny Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 452-534 (111.8 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Leavanny Leaf Blade vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 304-358 (108.5 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Leavanny X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 309-364 (88.7 - 104.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Leavanny Savage Spin-Out (160 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 309-364 (88.7 - 104.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Leavanny Savage Spin-Out (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Victreebel: 313-370 (103.9 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Leavanny Savage Spin-Out (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 228-268 (78 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Drops

Tangela from A- to B+/B

I don't understand why this thing is still all the way in A- after Ferroseed dropped. Ferroseed outshines this thing in nearly every single way possible. It has a better defensive typing and it can set hazards. Ferroseed does lose to Fighting-types such as Gurdurr and Hitmonchan, but then I would just use Victreebel, who also outclasses Tangela. There's simply no logical reasoning behind using Tangela when Ferroseed also exists in the tier.

Ursaring from C+ to C-/D

Ursaring is bad for a multitude of reasons. Its Quick Feet set is unviable given how slow it is, and its Guts set is really only viable under Trick Room, which in and of itself started to die once AlolaEggy was banned. Besides, Marowak is a superior TR sweeper anyways given its defensive utility. Outside of Trick Room, Ursaring sucks and you're much better off using Zangoose.

 

[TTK]

I definitely agree with Silvally-Fairy going to A- since its one of the most dependable Fighting-checks in the tier, as well as that its able to serve its role as a Defogger and offensive pivot effectively. First of all, the only reason we use Silvally-Fairy as a Defogger is because it checks Fighting-types super well. While this thing is healthy, Fighting-types and Knock Off are basically non-existent threats to your team (aside from Gunk Shot Primeape). Yes, this thing loses to Regirock and Mudsdale, but hazard removal is there to remove hazards, not necessarily to beat the actual hazard setter in a 1v1. Also, I don't understand the issue with it not having reliable recovery; Lanturn and Eelektross don't and they are still some of the best defensive pivots in the tier.

Addressing its SD set, it's very effective in my opinion. People always expect this thing to be an offensive Defogger so they aren't ready for the combination SD + Flame Charge once their defensive tanks are down in the late-game. I've been swept by this set a couple of times and it's certainly more potent than one might think.

Rises

Absol from B- to B

This thing is an absolute beast after an SD boost, which is usually easy to set up given how many switches it forces. It is outstanding at cleaning late-game once Silvally-Fairy and Gurdurr are gone and its checks have been weakened. While its SD set is its best, Choice Band hits extremely hard and Choice Scarf can nab surprise KOs on Raichu-Alola, Froslass, and others with Pursuit. Additionally, I could easily argue why Absol is better than half the mons that are currently in B.

Leavanny from Unranked to C

Leavanny @ Buginium Z
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- X-Scissor
- Synthesis / Knock Off

Aside from being a premiere Sticky Web setter, Leavanny can be quite good as a Swords Dance sweeper. It has the STAB combination needed to neutralize many defensive behemoths including Regirock, Ferroseed, Jellicent, Lanturn, and Gurdurr, all of whom fail to threaten it back. If the C and D ranks are defined as merely having a niche, Leavanny most certainly qualifies.

leavanny calcs

+2 252 Atk Leavanny Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 192-226 (51.3 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Leavanny Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Stoutland: 271-321 (87.1 - 103.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Leavanny Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 301-355 (80.4 - 94.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Leavanny Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mudsdale: 360-426 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Leavanny Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 452-534 (111.8 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Leavanny Leaf Blade vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 304-358 (108.5 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Leavanny X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 309-364 (88.7 - 104.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Leavanny Savage Spin-Out (160 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 309-364 (88.7 - 104.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Leavanny Savage Spin-Out (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Victreebel: 313-370 (103.9 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Leavanny Savage Spin-Out (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 228-268 (78 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Drops

Tangela from A- to B+/B

I don't understand why this thing is still all the way in A- after Ferroseed dropped. Ferroseed outshines this thing in nearly every single way possible. It has a better defensive typing and it can set hazards. Ferroseed does lose to Fighting-types such as Gurdurr and Hitmonchan, but then I would just use Victreebel, who also outclasses Tangela. There's simply no logical reasoning behind using Tangela when Ferroseed also exists in the tier.

Ursaring from C+ to C-/D

Ursaring is bad for a multitude of reasons. Its Quick Feet set is unviable given how slow it is, and its Guts set is really only viable under Trick Room, which in and of itself started to die once AlolaEggy was banned. Besides, Marowak is a superior TR sweeper anyways given its defensive utility. Outside of Trick Room, Ursaring sucks and you're much better off using Zangoose.

There's a lot I want to talk about in this post because theres a lot I straight-up dont agree with.

Tangela drop:
I woke up and I read this and I was thinking "the only thing comparable about Ferro and Tangela is the fact that they are small-looking grass types". It made me question if you have ever used Tangela because Ferro and Tangela do not do the same thing. Tangela is a physical wall who is able to pivot into the majority of our physical attackers like ape, golurk, stoutland being the most important imo and etc and ferro is a hazard setter which lacks Tangela's physical bulk so it is not able to pivot into attacks as well as Tangela but does possess the better defensive typing. Then you mention using victreebel as the better fighting check rather than Tangela and I just sigh at this point. Once again, you cannot compare these pokemon because they are so different. Sure, victreebel is a fighting resist due to its poison typing but when hit with coverage like chan's ice punch, it folds. Tangela is a fighting check because it doesnt take much damage from any of our fighting types then can just switch out.

I think you just miss the point of why people use Tangela and a drop for it when Stoutland still exists in the tier alongside other threatening physical attackers is uncalled for.

Ursaring drop:
I dont have much to say on this, ursa is kinda bad rn and is just outclassed by any normal type above it. What ursa does excel at which it does better than even Stout is stallbreaking. Breaking more defensive teams is the best thing Ursa does because it can just 2hko everything in the tier with its Guts set and isnt actually locked in like Stout is. This niche alone can probably keep ursa around C, it's not D material imo.

Leavanny rise:
"Premier sticky web setter" webs kinda sucks rn but that's beside the point because you're addressing the sd set. You mention the fact that bug/grass can threaten a lot but this mon has a lot of problems. Weaknesses to common typings like Ice, Flying and a rocks weakness doesnt make it a reliable set up sweeper compared to something like Dodrio (rocks weakness ik) but has higher attack, higher speed and stronger STABs.

I also wanted to address your calcs which I find quite irrelevant. Ik you want to show how much Leavanny does at +2 but using ev spreads that dont exist like max defence jelli, max defence mudsdale, 0 defence gurdurr oel and doing calcs on physically frailer mons like z move at +0 like victreebel isnt necessary cuz we all know its gonna kill if its unresisted.

 

[m3po]

There's a lot I want to talk about in this post because theres a lot I straight-up dont agree with.

Tangela drop:
I woke up and I read this and I was thinking "the only thing comparable about Ferro and Tangela is the fact that they are small-looking grass types". It made me question if you have ever used Tangela because Ferro and Tangela do not do the same thing. Tangela is a physical wall who is able to pivot into the majority of our physical attackers like ape, golurk, stoutland being the most important imo and etc and ferro is a hazard setter which lacks Tangela's physical bulk so it is not able to pivot into attacks as well as Tangela but does possess the better defensive typing. Then you mention using victreebel as the better fighting check rather than Tangela and I just sigh at this point. Once again, you cannot compare these pokemon because they are so different. Sure, victreebel is a fighting resist due to its poison typing but when hit with coverage like chan's ice punch, it folds. Tangela is a fighting check because it doesnt take much damage from any of our fighting types then can just switch out.

I think you just miss the point of why people use Tangela and a drop for it when Stoutland still exists in the tier alongside other threatening physical attackers is uncalled for.

Ursaring drop:
I dont have much to say on this, ursa is kinda bad rn and is just outclassed by any normal type above it. What ursa does excel at which it does better than even Stout is stallbreaking. Breaking more defensive teams is the best thing Ursa does because it can just 2hko everything in the tier with its Guts set and isnt actually locked in like Stout is. This niche alone can probably keep ursa around C, it's not D material imo.

Leavanny rise:
"Premier sticky web setter" webs kinda sucks rn but that's beside the point because you're addressing the sd set. You mention the fact that bug/grass can threaten a lot but this mon has a lot of problems. Weaknesses to common typings like Ice, Flying and a rocks weakness doesnt make it a reliable set up sweeper compared to something like Dodrio (rocks weakness ik) but has higher attack, higher speed and stronger STABs.

I also wanted to address your calcs which I find quite irrelevant. Ik you want to show how much Leavanny does at +2 but using ev spreads that dont exist like max defence jelli, max defence mudsdale, 0 defence gurdurr oel and doing calcs on physically frailer mons like z move at +0 like victreebel isnt necessary cuz we all know its gonna kill if its unresisted.

Tangela: You're denying the fact that Ferroseed also switches into Golurk and Stoutland (with a little prediction) alongside other physical threats including Skuntank, Dodrio, and AlolaSlash. If I wanted a Grass-type physical wall on my team, I would be going with Ferroseed over Tangela 90% of the time, given its invaluable support capabilities. This is because Ferroseed can take on a variety of special attackers that Tangela straight up loses to. Tangela is more of a catch-all defensive pivot that performs only one role that Ferroseed can do equally as well. Also, Ferroseed has an immunity to Toxic, a very important defensive asset that Tangela lacks. I don't know how to make this argument without comparing the two because Ferroseed dropping is the only reason I'm making this nomination in the first place.

Ursaring: If I wanted a half-decent Normal-type stall breaker, I would just use Zangoose, who, with Adamant, has comparable power to Ursaring (even more so than Stoutland does). The reason I bring up Adamant is because Adamant Zangoose is still notably faster than Adamant/Jolly Ursaring and if I truly wanted a stall breaker, Adamant would be preferred. Additionally, Zangoose has access to Knock Off, allowing it to cripple stuff like Gurdurr and Tangela. The two aren't even in the same ballpark yet Zangoose is B- and Ursaring is literally one subrank lower at C+, which is a travesty to say the least. Nevertheless, it seems that you're content with Ursaring dropping to C or C-, so I'm fine with that.

Leavanny: I'm not sure why you're comparing Leavanny to Dodrio since Leavanny is unranked and Dodrio is all the way up in A. From what I understand, mons that are ranked are ones that have distinct niches in the tier, which Leavanny does. I'm only arguing for this thing to be ranked at all; I'm not saying that this thing should be anywhere close to Dodrio. Leavanny having common weaknesses should not invalidate it since Lycanroc and Absol have an even worse weakness to Fighting, yet they're solid SD sweepers. Again, I'm nomming this mon for <C rank , which I think is more than fair since it is able to threaten so many defensive cores with its STAB coverage. Sticky Web is an optional fourth-slot move as well to demonstrate that Leavanny can provide utility and that it is more than a one-trick pony.