https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/formats/uubl/
- Drought / Drizzle
- Mewnium Z / Kommonium Z
- Baton Pass
- Drought / Drizzle
- Mewnium Z / Kommonium Z
- Baton Pass
-
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Metagame USUM UU - General Discussion & Trends Thread!
- Thread starter aim
- Start date
Alot of newer players have asked me to talk about this so I thought I would just post this.
Metagross. One of my personal favorite Pseudo Legendaries (You can't beat Salamence in my book <3) and a pretty fun mon to use. It has amazing coverage, good utility moves, and a nice typing. It's abilities aren't terrible either. It was a star in it's debut, but now it's kinda just mediocre. Let's look at Metagross' competitive history. I'm going to keep it short in the parts where it's solidly OU because this is the UU forum.
Gen 3:
Metagross was first introduced in this generation and it was really stellar. Sometimes ran HP grass to hit pert, sometimes exploded, and dished out painful meteor mashes. Overall, Metagross was a key part of ADV OU.
Gen 4:
Good lead. Gets rocks up, can kill opposing Metagross with explosion, eq, etc. Nice priority gained this gen with Bullet Punch and got physical psychic STAB in zen headbutt. Solidly OU once more.
Gen 5:
This is where Metagross starts to fall behind. It's speed is just not good enough and it's super hard to actually bring into things. Still OU, but kinda shakey in it.
Gen 6:
Metagross hits UU. It's terrible speed and lack of settup finally let Metagross fall. Metagross is utilized as a Rocker, Choice Band user, Mixed Attacker, Pursuit Trapper, or AV pivot (worst set from what I've heard). It is constantly trying to escape the shadow of Cobalion, who does everything Metagross can do, but better. However, it does outshine Cobalion a little since it has access to options such as Bullet Punch, Pursuit, Grass Knot, Explosion, etc. Overall, Metagross was okay in Generation 6 Under Used.
Gen 7:
This is the saddest part for me. Metagross, the once top of the meta mon of ADV OU, sucks this generation. It has a not that great typing, especially when it can't even check the plethora of fighting types in UU. It's speed (once more) holds it down from its dreams of being at the top. Heck, it's not even worth using at this point due to other options just being better. Want a revenge killer with Bullet Punch? Scizor. Want an offensive bulky steel? Cobalion. Want a solid steel rocker with good coverage? Mega Aggron. Metagross is still UU at the time this post is being written, but I'm confident it'll fall to RUBL by the end of the generation. (RUBL because it's probably too broken for RU, idk though since I don't play that much RU.) Sadly, Metagross will eventually become like some of our other favorites from the early generations, constantly descending into the deep, dark pit of non-relevance.
On first glance, Metagross looks like a solid pokemon that would easily be top tier, but in reality, it's just not good enough. It's subpar speed stat and lack of settup moves just hold it down to the point where it's stuck between being too good for one tier and not good enough for another. (reminds me of another pseudo legendary that I love)
Anyways, thanks for reading this history lesson. If you have any suggestions on what needs to change in this, hit me up fam. I might continue doing this with other mons in the future. Till then, onwards, UU players.
Metagross. One of my personal favorite Pseudo Legendaries (You can't beat Salamence in my book <3) and a pretty fun mon to use. It has amazing coverage, good utility moves, and a nice typing. It's abilities aren't terrible either. It was a star in it's debut, but now it's kinda just mediocre. Let's look at Metagross' competitive history. I'm going to keep it short in the parts where it's solidly OU because this is the UU forum.
Gen 3:
Metagross was first introduced in this generation and it was really stellar. Sometimes ran HP grass to hit pert, sometimes exploded, and dished out painful meteor mashes. Overall, Metagross was a key part of ADV OU.
Gen 4:
Good lead. Gets rocks up, can kill opposing Metagross with explosion, eq, etc. Nice priority gained this gen with Bullet Punch and got physical psychic STAB in zen headbutt. Solidly OU once more.
Gen 5:
This is where Metagross starts to fall behind. It's speed is just not good enough and it's super hard to actually bring into things. Still OU, but kinda shakey in it.
Gen 6:
Metagross hits UU. It's terrible speed and lack of settup finally let Metagross fall. Metagross is utilized as a Rocker, Choice Band user, Mixed Attacker, Pursuit Trapper, or AV pivot (worst set from what I've heard). It is constantly trying to escape the shadow of Cobalion, who does everything Metagross can do, but better. However, it does outshine Cobalion a little since it has access to options such as Bullet Punch, Pursuit, Grass Knot, Explosion, etc. Overall, Metagross was okay in Generation 6 Under Used.
Gen 7:
This is the saddest part for me. Metagross, the once top of the meta mon of ADV OU, sucks this generation. It has a not that great typing, especially when it can't even check the plethora of fighting types in UU. It's speed (once more) holds it down from its dreams of being at the top. Heck, it's not even worth using at this point due to other options just being better. Want a revenge killer with Bullet Punch? Scizor. Want an offensive bulky steel? Cobalion. Want a solid steel rocker with good coverage? Mega Aggron. Metagross is still UU at the time this post is being written, but I'm confident it'll fall to RUBL by the end of the generation. (RUBL because it's probably too broken for RU, idk though since I don't play that much RU.) Sadly, Metagross will eventually become like some of our other favorites from the early generations, constantly descending into the deep, dark pit of non-relevance.
On first glance, Metagross looks like a solid pokemon that would easily be top tier, but in reality, it's just not good enough. It's subpar speed stat and lack of settup moves just hold it down to the point where it's stuck between being too good for one tier and not good enough for another. (reminds me of another pseudo legendary that I love)
Anyways, thanks for reading this history lesson. If you have any suggestions on what needs to change in this, hit me up fam. I might continue doing this with other mons in the future. Till then, onwards, UU players.
Great timing Sickist, I will not have to do a double posting.
I would like to digress on something I talk about about a weeks ago with Pearl on Discord ; and this thing is Work Up Rest-Talk Primarina !
Rest-Talk + 2 STABs Primarina is a well known Pokemon in Underused. Thanks to its typing and a defensive EVs spread, Primarina is able to check Pokemon like Hydreigon, Choice Scarf Latias, Krookodile, Altaria-Mega to a certain extent but also Kommo-o, Sharpedo-Mega, non-Gunk Shot Infernape, Kyurem etc.. However, this set kinda lacks of sheer power and the fact that it is a bit passive can be problematic in some situations. Thanks to Work Up, Primarina denied this passivity which is incredible tbh.
Work Up Primarina is a two-dimensional Pokemon : on one side, Primarina acts as a regular Rest-Talk Primarina by being able to check a lot of Pokemon (Hydreigon, Krookodile, Kommo-o, Kyurem etc..). On the other hand, Primarina can be a really dangerous threat thanks to Work Up which allows it to be a Bulky Setup Sweeper. Even if Work Up isn't as good as Calm Mind, it allows Primarina to pressure even more Pokemon than its Rest-Talk set. In my opinion, it's not that big of a deal to get rid of Scald for Work Up. I definitively think that this set is 100% better than Rest-Talk Primarina and I was surprised to see that this set was nonexistent on the Ladder.
This is why I wrote this post ; so that players can have a look on this underrated set, so they could test it and took the time to judgement on it.
I would like to digress on something I talk about about a weeks ago with Pearl on Discord ; and this thing is Work Up Rest-Talk Primarina !
Rest-Talk + 2 STABs Primarina is a well known Pokemon in Underused. Thanks to its typing and a defensive EVs spread, Primarina is able to check Pokemon like Hydreigon, Choice Scarf Latias, Krookodile, Altaria-Mega to a certain extent but also Kommo-o, Sharpedo-Mega, non-Gunk Shot Infernape, Kyurem etc.. However, this set kinda lacks of sheer power and the fact that it is a bit passive can be problematic in some situations. Thanks to Work Up, Primarina denied this passivity which is incredible tbh.
Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Work Up
- Moonblast
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Work Up
- Moonblast
This is why I wrote this post ; so that players can have a look on this underrated set, so they could test it and took the time to judgement on it.
Honestly, I always wondered why a-ninetails & not aurora veil. (I was not here during the ban.) I see these arguments and think, "that's not a good argument at all."
Aurorus does not have snow warning AND aurora veil. Neither does A-Sandslash. Not a good example. Of course aurora veil won't look broken if it takes 2 mons to pull this off (both of which are not good).
If you are seriously going to tell me that A-Ninetales is broken and not aurora veil, then please show me a replay of A-Ninetales sweeping the meta or of A-Ninetales easily pressuring teams. A-Ninetales sets up the move and made sure other mons could not set up alongside by using encore. That was it.
A better example is if we had another mon with aurora veil + snow warning. Not one that is inherently bad either. One that is either fast or has similar stats/movepool/typing as other mons in the current metagame. Since we don't have one, we can't really make a good comparison. But, would if I to then say that Zeroara, Mesperit, and other fasts mons had snow warning + aurora veil. Would aurora veil be broken or the mons?
Obviously it's the move and not the pokemon. Other pokemon abused the move for crying out loud. It was thanks to the move that other mons were able to sweep so easily in the first place. People ran defoggers more often than not for the move, not for A-Ninetales.
I honestly agree that Alolan Ninetales should be unbanned, and the move aurora veil should be banned.
I agree with you as far as ninetails itself not being broken, but veil being. However thats where I draw the line. First off, unbanning tails and banning veil would never happen thanks to smogon's absolute hatred of complex bans. See, the thing is, Ninetails is banned because it's just too good of a setter. It's speed lets it get veil up vs pretty much anything that doesn't outspeed it and kill it or something that has super effective priority (aka Scizor). It also has tools like Encore to lock something into a settup move and get up Veil. Overall, as much as I dislike Atails only being UUBL for veil, its most likely not coming down at all, unless by some miracle UU decides to ban Veil alone and retest Alolatails.
Alright, I'm gonna add my 5 cents here
While uncommon of an archetype, Veil is at least a viable archetype in the current UU metagame.
Alolan ninetails however, likely wouldn't bring enough to the table by itself to justify usage in the UU metagame.
Why ban a viable archetype just to unban a mon we'd probably give to RU in a month anyways? It makes no sense.
All of our dragons can hit Alolatales, our priority (Most notably Scizor) can dumpster it, it can't really hit steels, it can't check things most other fairies can since it can't wall fightings, and a lot of our darks can hit it with a non-dark move.
I don't see why we should ban an archetype that's probably more viable than veil-less Alolatales would ever be just for the sake of retesting it.
While uncommon of an archetype, Veil is at least a viable archetype in the current UU metagame.
Alolan ninetails however, likely wouldn't bring enough to the table by itself to justify usage in the UU metagame.
Why ban a viable archetype just to unban a mon we'd probably give to RU in a month anyways? It makes no sense.
All of our dragons can hit Alolatales, our priority (Most notably Scizor) can dumpster it, it can't really hit steels, it can't check things most other fairies can since it can't wall fightings, and a lot of our darks can hit it with a non-dark move.
I don't see why we should ban an archetype that's probably more viable than veil-less Alolatales would ever be just for the sake of retesting it.
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A lot of the facts you pointed out is what I already pointed out in my initial post and I put down all the points. And complex bans have been made: Drought, Drizzle, and following OU complex bans (like baton pass). Just as Mega Houndoom wasn't inherently broken without sun, same goes for Alolan Ninetales. And Mega Houndoom is bulkier, stronger, faster, and arguably has a better movepool. Same goes for Dugtrio, Gothitelle, Ninetales, Politoed, all swift swimmers / chlorophyll-ers, and baton pass users.
It's not like Alolan Ninetales is broken or Hail. Rather the move as when used by anything that's moderately fast w/ snow warning, it automatically makes set-up sweepers more dangerous.
Aurora Veil didn't even make A-Ninetales broken, it made sweepers broken. Nobody thought, "Oh no! Aurora Veil is up! How are we going to stop A-Ninetales?!" They thought, "how can we safely defog it away without giving any free turns to set-up sweepers" or "how can we maneuver around these threats while veil is up".
I mean, not even fast mons would be able to abuse a-veil if they had snow warning. Bulky mons like shuckle could exploit it too. Anything with good stats and/or typing could.
Look where Mega Houndoom is: RU BL. Look where a lot of mons are that relied heavily on a broken ability/move that created archetypes.
I don’t see how it’s not a good example? It’s the only tier relevant example, and despite needing two pokemon to pull off the move the strategy is usable albeit niche within the tier, while Ninetales teams were considered too much for the tier. Surely this shows that Aurora Veil can exist within UU so why would it be banned? Why would we ban an archetype that brings diversity to the tier for the sake of a pokemon that would be pretty useless in this tier? We make tiering decisions with the intent of removing the minimum amount from the tier while rectifying the issue and I think this is exactly what the Ninetales ban did. Banning veil instead would make Aurorus and Sandslash unviable in the tier, has a significant impact on Ninetales’ own viability to the point where it’d probably be unviable itself so where is the benefit for the tier in taking this decision? You’re correct, Ninetales has probably never swept a competent team or wallbroke to the point where it looked a broken threat based on that alone, but that’s not why the suspect was required, so I’m not sure why you’re attempting to use it as a reason to justify changing a decision that was made way back and really has no reason to be changed.
I just don’t understand what is driving this sudden desire to see Ninetales go back to RU or wherever it would end up at th expense of removing some diversity from our tier. My view has been that our tiering should always be done to improve the tier as a whole, and I think changing this decision would contradict that completely.
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Why not ban politoed and not drizzle? Why not ban mega houndoom and not drought? Why would OU not ban Dugtrio seeing as trapinch with arena trap isn't broken at all in the slightest. Look at RU, they didn't ban drought, they banned mega houndoom. And Drought was still a viable playstyle here too. I remember PIF talking about how it did well against stall and a few others stating it did well against a few HO & balance teams at the time. Venusaur was C+ rank and Ninetales was like B- rank or something before mega houndoom dropped.
It's not a good example since it's not comparable. And I already stated how, it takes two of them not one. We don't have another mon that has snow warning + aurora veil to make a fair comparison off of. That's why I argue that it wouldn't just be a-ninetales that would be deemed broken if there were other mons that had both snow warning and aurora veil.
So why ban the pokemon if it didn't accomplish any of this? Mega Houndoom was banned and it at least accomplished all of these tasks.
Because, would if in gen 8 we get more mons that have both aurora veil and snow warning? Both fast and bulky. Should we ban them all? Or just the move. Plus, what about other tiers? Alolan Ninetales might add something to other tiers too. It'd be selfish to think only of UU since the ban affects other tiers.
Drizzle and Drought are far FAR better Abilities than Snow Warning. No residual damage (Ice sucks as a defensive typing worse than the lack of residual damage helps), boosts to certain-typed attacks, Pokemon with weather-boosted Speed Abilities that are actually viable...
Also, Mega Houndoom WAS banned instead of Drought. Then it was found that the problem was sun support, not Solar Power.
Also, Mega Houndoom WAS banned instead of Drought. Then it was found that the problem was sun support, not Solar Power.
I really am tired of this whole, “Oh let’s unban shit for the tier!” mentality going on when the big question is, “What good would it even do for the tier?” Many agree that this is currently the best iteration of UU so why is everyone so dissatisfied with the metagame? Unbanning mons just because you want to change up the metagame is a selfish mindset that goes against the entire tiering philosophy of Smogon. Even for something as minimal as Alolan Ninetales, you’re sacrificing interesting aspects of a metagame for your own personal gain even though it does no favors for the meta. Smogon promotes a balanced system that promotes creating balanced metagames for all tiers with the most minuscule amount of sacrifice to do so. I want to stop reiterating this but I’m being forced to at this point, if it isn’t broken, DON’T FIX IT!
Ah yes, stability confused for staleness, my favorite flavor of metagame
There's so much stuff viable right now, possibly more than ever in S/M and people think unbanning mons is the only way to shake up the meta
There's a lot to build with right now, a lot of unexplored mons and archetypes!
There's so much stuff viable right now, possibly more than ever in S/M and people think unbanning mons is the only way to shake up the meta
There's a lot to build with right now, a lot of unexplored mons and archetypes!
Could be that they just need more examples of teams in the current meta maybe? Not everyone is a good team builder. I know I make a good one every now and then but I usually just work off what others have made.
There is already a thread.. it's the UU Teambuilding Lab
To add on, there’s also a sample teams thread, but maybe it’s just not visible enough for some people- I know that they aren’t as active as this thread is, for example.
There is already a thread.. it's the UU Teambuilding Lab
Once again, my wording sucks. What I ACTUALLY meant to say was that these things should be more exposed to people. Sorry for the sucky wording...
Guess what ? I'm back to digress ! I know, I know.. a lot of people like the current UU metagame but even if I like it as well, I'm the kind of guy who believes that we can improve even more the tier and that's why I'm here today to talk about Latias-Mega. Even if I'm part of the players who decide to vote ban during the Public Suspect Test of Latias-Mega about a year ago and although I still believe it was the right choice to ban this Pokemon, I think it could be really interesting to reintroduce it in the current tier.
I believe that Latias-Mega could bring a lot of support to Bulky Offense and Balanced by being able to check some really dangerous threats like Nidoking, Celebi, Nasty Plot Infernape & Lucario and both Cobalion and Terrakion. On the other hand, I feel like Latias-Mega wouldn't overwhelming for the current metagame because we have a some powerful Dark types which are running around like Hydreigon or Bisharp (I don't talk about Krookodile because it struggles to beat Bulky Latias-Mega if it doesn't have Crunch). Scizor, Altaria-Mega and Primarina are as good as ever and all of them can pressure Latias-Mega if it lacks the right coverage (Hidden Power [Fire] / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam). Even if Latias-Mega has an insanely large Movepool, I think it would have a really bad 4 MSS (there is too much options between Recover, Calm Mind, Psychic/Psyshock, Draco Meteor, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Hidden Power [Fire] or Refresh, Reflect Type or even Defog..). Furthermore, Empoleon, Sharpedo-Mega and Aggron/Steelix-Mega are still good picks in Underused and all of them can bother to a certain extent Latias-Mega.
I definitively think that Latias-Mega could be an interesting retest and that's why I would like to have your opinion on this Pokemon. I'm done, thanks for your time !
No. Just... no. I don't want to play a game of 'am I lucky enough for it to not have the right coverage'. I don't want to play a game of 'does it have refresh or can i toxic it', I don't want to play a game where scouting one wrong turn is the end of the line.
We had Weavile around last meta, we still have Krook, had other strong dragons, Altaria, etc. It was still broken as hell. Keep that thing out of the tier.
We had Weavile around last meta, we still have Krook, had other strong dragons, Altaria, etc. It was still broken as hell. Keep that thing out of the tier.
My favourite was how Sylveon wasn’t a check because it could CM, eat the hit, and proceed to boost up vs it. I don’t see how much has changed.
Not that I mind this thread being live and kicking around for once, but this thread has turned into absolutely nothing but retest discussion.
I'm very confused as to why people are so eager to test mons that would surely warp the metagame around their fingers when we have arguably the most solid, all-around metagame in an extremely long time. Sure, there's arguments for why X, Y, or Z, wouldn't be horribly BROKEN, but such mons would still force out playstyles and answers to them that'd we'd lose this incredibly diverse state of the meta. Everything from balls to the wall Hyper Offense to Full Stall and every BO/Balance team in-between is viable. And why we'd want to go out of our way to disrupt arguably the best meta in gen 7 just because some people are apparently getting bored with it doesn't really make sense to me. This line of thinking that we HAVE to retest something everytime the metagame enters a decent state is how you get metas like Azu and Breloom, and overall seems extremely counterproductive to the tier.
Merry Christmas everybody. Including you Mr. Jamvad Aim.
After laddering up and down on repetition for a long time with other people's teams, I manage to come across some interesting sets that managed to annoy many players, including myself. Trappers are everywhere, and people gotten very innovative in using them. Maybe these sets will be used in future tours. Maybe Kink, Hogg, and the Sparrow Gang will disagree.
First up - Snorlax the Trapper / All credit goes to slowchamp for the set and being an actual champion of bros & kings
Snorlax @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Recycle
- Block
- Curse
- Return / Facade
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-840286836 - Trap begins Turn 1. His Snorlax manages to successfully trap and beat my Mega Steelix to death. I don't know how I won but that set was monstrous.
Snorlax is capable of trapping quite a few special attackers like Primarina (minus the mengy metronome special set), Alomomola, Mega Altaria, Moltres, Slowbro, and Suicune. It's crazy that it can trap Mega Steelix. I'd honestly run Facade to trap more mons; kept Return out of respect for the guy that came up with it in the first place.
Pyukumuku & Slowbro Trap Duo / All credit goes to Cute Pink Team a.k.a. Hyper Stall Savage , proving that these two sets don't just work in NU but, they can also work in UU as well.
Pyukumuku @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Block
- Soak
- Toxic
- Recover
Slowbro @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Block
- Rest
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-840343972 - The block begins at turn 36. I got very lucky in beating his/hers strats this game due to the fact that I had gotten bodied by this player twice before while using stall. So, I had to do pif proud and showcase primarina's metronome set to break through block wall.
I honestly think block trapping is very effective in UU. If you haven't given it a try yet, by all means go ahead and copy these sets to see what they can do.
After laddering up and down on repetition for a long time with other people's teams, I manage to come across some interesting sets that managed to annoy many players, including myself. Trappers are everywhere, and people gotten very innovative in using them. Maybe these sets will be used in future tours. Maybe Kink, Hogg, and the Sparrow Gang will disagree.
First up - Snorlax the Trapper / All credit goes to slowchamp for the set and being an actual champion of bros & kings
Snorlax @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Recycle
- Block
- Curse
- Return / Facade
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-840286836 - Trap begins Turn 1. His Snorlax manages to successfully trap and beat my Mega Steelix to death. I don't know how I won but that set was monstrous.
Snorlax is capable of trapping quite a few special attackers like Primarina (minus the mengy metronome special set), Alomomola, Mega Altaria, Moltres, Slowbro, and Suicune. It's crazy that it can trap Mega Steelix. I'd honestly run Facade to trap more mons; kept Return out of respect for the guy that came up with it in the first place.
Pyukumuku & Slowbro Trap Duo / All credit goes to Cute Pink Team a.k.a. Hyper Stall Savage , proving that these two sets don't just work in NU but, they can also work in UU as well.
Pyukumuku @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Block
- Soak
- Toxic
- Recover
Slowbro @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Block
- Rest
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-840343972 - The block begins at turn 36. I got very lucky in beating his/hers strats this game due to the fact that I had gotten bodied by this player twice before while using stall. So, I had to do pif proud and showcase primarina's metronome set to break through block wall.
I honestly think block trapping is very effective in UU. If you haven't given it a try yet, by all means go ahead and copy these sets to see what they can do.
Hello! First and foremost, merry Christmas to everyone reading this! I hope you're doing well.
Second of all I would like to talk about Muk. Is it because I've eaten so much that I feel like garbage? Most likely. Though I really feel that Muk is undeserving of the usage it has. Just so we are on the same page as far as spread, and therefore calcs, go, this below is the standard set. I've just put enough speed to oustpeed Blissey and 4 Speed RestTalk Primarina.
Despite not appreciating current meta trends like the huge influx of Fighting-types, from my experience I've seen Latias run mainly Electrium Z, which lets her muscle through would-be Steel-types checks like Aggron and Empo but not as much through Vest Alolan Muk. Of course the move does a lot though (+1 252 SpA Latias Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 141-167 (40 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO ) since its a Z Move, but it's one redeeming trait that is has over Krook, which has to come in on a sack or on a more often than not risky predict. What I'd like to focus your attention though is how hard it is to actually switch in on it. Most mons might be able to switch in on Knock Off but they don't really like to get poisoned: Z Move Infernape doesn't really like to take damage before its sweep while Hippo doesn't like its Leftovers being knocked off at all and likes even less being poisoned. I feel that you shouldn't count on Muk defensively as much but rather as a mix of defense and good offensive presence: while it can check Latias more reliably now, its weakness to entry hazards and how easy it is to chip it down without Wish support doesn't make it check stuff consistently as it would like to.
To wrap things up, I think that Muk should be used keeping in mind that its role is not to check stuff but its a though-to-switch-into attacker that can take hits in a pinch, and should in my humble opinion used more as such.
On the completely different side of the spectrum, I've seen a lot of stalls using Muk defensively to check breakers like Gengar, Celebi, CM Chandy and CM Rest Bro. Wish support and constant Defog keeps Muk healthy throughout the game and lets it knock the stuffing out of things with powerful Knock Offs knocking off lefties or life orbs, which can be crucial in stall match-ups.
Second of all I would like to talk about Muk. Is it because I've eaten so much that I feel like garbage? Most likely. Though I really feel that Muk is undeserving of the usage it has. Just so we are on the same page as far as spread, and therefore calcs, go, this below is the standard set. I've just put enough speed to oustpeed Blissey and 4 Speed RestTalk Primarina.
Muk-Alola @ Assault Vest
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 168 Atk / 252 SpD / 88 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Gunk Shot / Poison Jab
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Fire Punch
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 168 Atk / 252 SpD / 88 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Gunk Shot / Poison Jab
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Fire Punch
Despite not appreciating current meta trends like the huge influx of Fighting-types, from my experience I've seen Latias run mainly Electrium Z, which lets her muscle through would-be Steel-types checks like Aggron and Empo but not as much through Vest Alolan Muk. Of course the move does a lot though (+1 252 SpA Latias Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 141-167 (40 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO ) since its a Z Move, but it's one redeeming trait that is has over Krook, which has to come in on a sack or on a more often than not risky predict. What I'd like to focus your attention though is how hard it is to actually switch in on it. Most mons might be able to switch in on Knock Off but they don't really like to get poisoned: Z Move Infernape doesn't really like to take damage before its sweep while Hippo doesn't like its Leftovers being knocked off at all and likes even less being poisoned. I feel that you shouldn't count on Muk defensively as much but rather as a mix of defense and good offensive presence: while it can check Latias more reliably now, its weakness to entry hazards and how easy it is to chip it down without Wish support doesn't make it check stuff consistently as it would like to.
To wrap things up, I think that Muk should be used keeping in mind that its role is not to check stuff but its a though-to-switch-into attacker that can take hits in a pinch, and should in my humble opinion used more as such.
On the completely different side of the spectrum, I've seen a lot of stalls using Muk defensively to check breakers like Gengar, Celebi, CM Chandy and CM Rest Bro. Wish support and constant Defog keeps Muk healthy throughout the game and lets it knock the stuffing out of things with powerful Knock Offs knocking off lefties or life orbs, which can be crucial in stall match-ups.
Don't scold me folks because I'm not there to talk about some UUBL Pokemon
Indeed I would like to talk about a set of Altaria-Mega that I'm using a lot right now and I feel like this set is pretty underrated even if it's hella good. This set is Dragon Dance Refresh Altaria-Mega.
Altaria-Mega @ Altarianite
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 76 Def / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Refresh
- Return
Dragon Dance + Roost / Refresh Altaria-Mega is an underrated set which can use Pokemon that bother its other sets to setup. Therefore Altaria-Mega can Setup on Rotom-Heat, Alomomola, Bronzong, non-Roar Empoleon, non-Roar Suicune etc.. Of course this set needs some support to deal with Steel types and weaken them but even Dragon Dance Altaria-Mega with Earthquake kinda needs some support to beat Steel types so that's not that big of a deal. One the main advantage of this set is that it can act as a really nice status absorber which means it can take on Scald's Burns, Toxic etc..
This EVs spread is my last creation. 248 EVs in HP coupled with 76 EVs in Def allow Altaria-Mega to never get 2HKO by Krookodile's Earthquake and Terrakion's Close Combat both after Stealth Rock damages. It also ensure Altaria-Mega to never get 2HKO by Latias's Psychic after Stealth Rocks damages. 176 EVs in Speed coupled with Jolly nature allow Altaria-Mega to outspeed Jolly Bisharp and ensure that Altaria-Mega will outspeed Choice Scarf Latias/Gengar after 2 Dragon Dance.
Calcs :
• 252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Altaria-Mega: 130-154 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Altaria-Mega: 126-148 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Latias Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Altaria-Mega: 127-150 (35.9 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Indeed I would like to talk about a set of Altaria-Mega that I'm using a lot right now and I feel like this set is pretty underrated even if it's hella good. This set is Dragon Dance Refresh Altaria-Mega.
Altaria-Mega @ Altarianite
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 76 Def / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Refresh
- Return
Dragon Dance + Roost / Refresh Altaria-Mega is an underrated set which can use Pokemon that bother its other sets to setup. Therefore Altaria-Mega can Setup on Rotom-Heat, Alomomola, Bronzong, non-Roar Empoleon, non-Roar Suicune etc.. Of course this set needs some support to deal with Steel types and weaken them but even Dragon Dance Altaria-Mega with Earthquake kinda needs some support to beat Steel types so that's not that big of a deal. One the main advantage of this set is that it can act as a really nice status absorber which means it can take on Scald's Burns, Toxic etc..
This EVs spread is my last creation. 248 EVs in HP coupled with 76 EVs in Def allow Altaria-Mega to never get 2HKO by Krookodile's Earthquake and Terrakion's Close Combat both after Stealth Rock damages. It also ensure Altaria-Mega to never get 2HKO by Latias's Psychic after Stealth Rocks damages. 176 EVs in Speed coupled with Jolly nature allow Altaria-Mega to outspeed Jolly Bisharp and ensure that Altaria-Mega will outspeed Choice Scarf Latias/Gengar after 2 Dragon Dance.
Calcs :
• 252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Altaria-Mega: 130-154 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 76 Def Altaria-Mega: 126-148 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Latias Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Altaria-Mega: 127-150 (35.9 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
