USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V2

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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Ok, time to compare Slowbro to Alomomola.

Criteria:

The following sets will be used for both Pokemon

Alomomola @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Def / 216 SpD
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic
- Scald
This is the standard defensive Alomomola set, taken from Smogon.

Slowbro @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Flamethrower
This is an interesting set I came up with, a Slack Off + 3 Attacks set.


We shall now be looking at their match-ups from S to B+ ranks.

Azumarill
Slowbro does slightly better than Alo since it can actually damage Belly Drum variants, making switching in risky for the Azu user. Both lose to Perish trapper.

Scizor
As backwards as it may seem, Slowbro actually has a better match-up vs this than Alo. While the latter has to rely on Scald burns to take it out, Slowbro can lure Scizor into directly using Knock Off or Bug Bite, remove it with Flamethrower, and then can switch out and restore all of its hp.

Gliscor
Slowbro does better than Alomomola VS Gliscor. Because its Special Attack isn't piss poor, it can actually scare out Gliscor with Scald, even after it has activated its Toxic Orb.


Aerodactyl-Mega
Both win against this.

Altaria-Mega
Varies depending on the set, but both generally do poorly against it.

Hydreigon
Both do poorly against this, even Alo can be taken advantage of via U-turn.

Latias
Both do poorly, although Slowbro can do slightly better VS non Thunderbolt/Z-Thunder sets.

Manectric-Mega
lol

Serperior
Both lose, but Slowbro can at least keep it from setting up Sub.


Amoonguss
While Alo just straight loses to this, Slowbro can actually deal nice damage with Psyshock, averting it from switching in.

Breloom
If Bullet Seed gets a bad roll and another mon is already asleep (or sleep rolls happen), Slowbro can actually maybe win. Breloom cannot set up on Slowbro either unless it is asleep. Kinda inconsistent, but at least it has a chance unlike Alo.

Cobalion
Both can beat it, but once again, Slowbro's match-up is generally better due to its resistance to its dual STAB and higher power.

Infernape
See Cobalion.

Mamoswine
Both win comfortably.

Muk-Alola
First match-up so far where Slowbro does worse than Alo, but it doesn't take much from Pursuit, even after Colbur is consumed:
204+ Atk Muk-Alola Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO after hail damage
After Regenerator, that's like, 10% net damage.

Primarina
Slowbro does better since its spdef isnt awful and it can actually damage Primarina back.

Suicune
Both lose to Vincune I think idk


Aggron-Mega
Both win.

Alomomola
Alo wins VS the bro with Toxic.

Blissey

Both lose (Toxic stall).

Gengar
Slowbro loses to Specs and Life Orb, but wins VS Scarf if it has enough HP. (252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 318-374 (80.7 - 94.9%))
Unsure about how Alo does.

Heracross
Both lose.

Klefki
Slowbro wins much easier compared to Alo.

Pidgeot-Mega
Alo wins, the bro loses.

Sharpedo-Mega
Alo wins, the bro loses.

Stakataka
Both can win. Don't let it accumulate too many boosts, though.

Starmie
Both lose hard to Tbolt variants, but if it isn't running that, Slowbro has a generally higher winrate.

Swampert
Slowbro wins better.

Togekiss
Both lose to NP flinch hax.


i gtg soon so i'll put these in later


tl;dr
-Slowbro wins against much of the same things Alomomola does while actually doing better in certain cases and not sacrificing too many match-ups
-The weaknesses that come with its additional Psychic typing are completely blown out of proportion, as there are few cases where they matter.
-Slowbro actually has a movepool with offenses, unlike Alo. While you can argue this leads to heavy 4MSS, this also comes with a slew of helpful bonuses like xMarth CM + Subzero Slammer set which can lure and take down many of Slowbro's special attacking checks.

I don't even care how much backlash I get for this, Slowbro for B+ AT MINIMUM
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
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Your match up chart seems to completely disregard the set marth posted, which was Scald, Ice Beam, Calm Mind Slack Off with Icium Z, instead the Slowbro you assume seems to be running all of Calm Mind Psyshock, Scald and Flamethrower with a Colbur Berry??? I could pick specific matchups where I can find flaws in your reasoning but cba to nitpick honestly. I think a lot of this comparing Slowbro to Alomomola misses out on the fact that while both have regen, Alo has access to WishTect which is massive for the builds it’s placed on because it allows it to perform the same scouting duties while also bringing an important stall utility to the table. I’d be fine for a Slowbro raise honestly but I think you’re far too focused on comparing it to Alomomola rather than actually stating what’s changed for Slowbro in this metagame and why it’s worth running now, when previously it was assumed not worthwhile. Marths set at least pointed out a lot of scenarios that allow on it to prey on common metagame trends and so was good reasoning for me.
 
Alright, I'll go over the slate nominations first:

Breloom A -> A+ Agreed lol
Honestly I don't know why this Pokemon isn't S-Rank yet, it's introduction knocked down the viability of a fair amount of Pokemon in tier while also increasing some others, like Amoonguss. It was pretty much recommended to have a Grass-Type resist on the team with Serperior's introduction, but now Breloom forced most teams Grass-Type blanket into being another Grass-Type due to Spore. You can't simply slap Alola-Muk onto the team and say done with Grass-Types now. It's various sets give a level of unpredictably at team preview, is it Poison Heal? Is it SD Natural Gift? Could it even be Banded for all we know? Either way it should definitely be A+, if not S-Rank.

Mega Aggron A- -> A Agreed
This Pokemon is a really good blanket for a lot of teams that struggle against Pokemon such as Mega Aero, Scizor, Stakataka etc. It's even better when paired with Wish support so it doesn't have to waste a move/s for Rest/Sleep Talk. With Wish Passers such Alomomola being viable allows Aggron to wall more consistently. Great Stealth Rocker and Curse setup sweeper, overall A-Rank material.

Stakataka A- -> B+ Disagree
While it's usage has gone down since it's introduction due to hype loss, and while more teams are prepped for it, I still think it's A- material. Stakataka alone still has the potential to snowball mid to late game and what also separates Stakataka from most Trick Room users, is that it doesn't need to be entirely in a Trick Room dependent team. Breloom's introduction hasn't helped it, but I strongly believe that it stands way above most Pokemon in B+ viability at the moment.

Mega Houndoom B+ -> A- Agreed
Already made a lengthy post on why: it shreds a huge amount of balance and bulky offensive teams, capable of revenge killing most top tier threats, not complete dead weight against Stall, one the few good Fire-Type wall-breakers in the tier (CM Chandelure isn't as viable due to Alola-Muk and Salazzle forces to run Z-Crystal for certain KOs whilst also not being as bulky.) Yeah the meta hasn't changed much since it's introduction other than Breloom scaring it with Mach Punch, but it's certainly a good Mega choice in tier right now.

Chandelure B -> B+ Agreed
Chandelure faces competition with Gengar right now for both Choice Specs and Scarf at the moment, but Chandelure has a slight niche over Gengar. With Infernape using Scarf a lot lately, Chandelure blanket checks Nape from locking itself into a Fire-move or Fighting-move. It also deals with Scizor and Cobalion, which Gengar has to use Focus Blast on the latter to OHKO, whilst also being able to deal with Pokemon such as Lati and Seperior much like Gengar. It's still niche over Gengar though, which has better match-ups against Pokemon such as Hydreigon (Dazzling Gleam/Focus Blast), Azumarill, Mega Altaria, Primarina etc. B+ is a solid place for it.

Tsareena C+ -> C Disagree
I think because Breloom takes up the role of a physical Grass attacker better, that people think Tsareena should drop. Tsareena niche is it being a Rapid Spinner that happens to deal with most standard setters like Swampert, Blissey, Stakataka and Cobalion with it's typing and coverage. If anything Tsareena is better with the introduction of Breloom, as Tsareena also fills the rare niche of being a Rapid Spinner that is immune to Spore and can threaten Breloom with Play Rough/Meadow Plate Power Whip. With it's ability, Breloom can't Mach Punch it and Meadow Plate Power Whip with Adamant Nature 2HKOs Breloom anyway. Honestly I think Tsareena should just rise to B- due to this amazing niche.


Now for some other nominations that have been discussed:

Slowbro C- to atleast B+ Actually Agreed
xMarth has a point, Slowbro walls pretty much similar things that Alomomola does without being as passive at the cost of a few extra weaknesses. Though it's weak to Pokemon such as Hydreigon and Gengar even more, Slowbro trades those extra weaknesses for more offensive pressure against various offensive and defensive threats. Pokemon such as Gliscor which Alomomola can not beat (unless you Scald burn or Knock Off before Toxic Orb activates) and walling Pokemon such as SD Infernape better as well. It's certainly not better overall as a defensive blanket as Alomomola (besides a few niches), but it's less passive nature I believe makes it as viable as Pokemon such as Hippowdon and Sylveon. Also CM Bro just beats CroCune as well that lacks Roar so that's nice.

Tentacruel B+ to A- Agreed
Like Darksafadao said, it's a splash-able spinner due to it being able to check Pokemon such as Scizor and Azumarill. Tentacruel has been using Poison moves more lately to deal with Sub Serperior, so it's a check it to some extent as well. Absorbs potential Toxic Spikes and punish Leech Seed users like Breloom and Serperior due to Liquid Ooze. It also one of the few viable Toxic-Spikers right now so that's an added bonus.


Finally my own nomination:

Mega Pidgeot A- to A
Recently through videos and playing on the ladder, I've noticed a surge of this Pokemon and immediately noticed how good this Pokemon can be at the moment. With Rotom-Wash's departure, it was an immediate win for this Pokemon. Pokemon like Klefki which can take hits and cripple Pidgeot have been on the down-low with the various defoggers stopping it's spike staking, Raikou isn't as common due to Manetric mostly outclassing it, Stakataka hype has died down so there has been less of that Pokemon as well and overall increase of bulky Grass-type and teams just make Pidgeot better. Capable of scaring top tier threats like Breloom, Serperior and Scizor with Hurricane + Heat Wave. It also dents defensive Pokemon such Amoonguss, Gliscor, Swampert etc. with Hurricane and also has that nasty 30% confusion rate which can just shut down or force sacks due to Pokemon hitting itself. Work Up Pidgeot also has been seeing more usage to help break the fatter teams. It's ability to pivot and having reliable recovery in Roost is another bonus, unlike Manetric which doesn't have the luxury of both worlds, so it can be worn down easily. Overall, I think Pidgeot has got the stuff for it be A rank material, just though.
 
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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Your match up chart seems to completely disregard the set marth posted, which was Scald, Ice Beam, Calm Mind Slack Off with Icium Z, instead the Slowbro you assume seems to be running all of Calm Mind Psyshock, Scald and Flamethrower with a Colbur Berry??? I could pick specific matchups where I can find flaws in your reasoning but cba to nitpick honestly. I think a lot of this comparing Slowbro to Alomomola misses out on the fact that while both have regen, Alo has access to WishTect which is massive for the builds it’s placed on because it allows it to perform the same scouting duties while also bringing an important stall utility to the table. I’d be fine for a Slowbro raise honestly but I think you’re far too focused on comparing it to Alomomola rather than actually stating what’s changed for Slowbro in this metagame and why it’s worth running now, when previously it was assumed not worthwhile. Marths set at least pointed out a lot of scenarios that allow on it to prey on common metagame trends and so was good reasoning for me.
Eyo, thanks for the response. I see where you're going with the idea that Alo and Slowbro aren't really comparable in what they do, you're definitely not wrong, but that wasn't the point of my match-up chart. The idea was to show exactly that: The match-ups. And as you see, Slowbro wins just as many match-ups as Alo does. Its current rank in C- would imply that it has a few very, very specific cases where it is better than other defensive pivots in the metagame, but generally sacrifices too many wins to be worth considering, and again, that clearly is not the case at all.

What changed for Slowbro? Nothing really. I just think that for whatever reason people overhated on it and acted like the extra weaknesses from the Psychic typing were unexcusable. While it may seem that way on paper, in practice, the extra weaknesses aren't a super huge deal, and can be worked around fairly easily via Regenerator and team support. What typically ends up happening is that Slowbro takes a hit, chunks the attacker back (sometimes koing them) and then healing off all the damage with Regen.

Sure, Alomomola may have WishTect, which is undoubtedly very nice for the balance and stall teams it is prominent on, but what Slowbro has is actual presence as a THREAT. Contrary to what you said, I did acknowledge Marth's Icium Slowbro set, so allow me to clarify. Wait makes Slowbro a worthy competitor to other bulky Pokemon in the tier is that it can actually fire back surprisingly hard with 100 base Special Attack and a surplus of coverage, meaning it can tank hits just as well, if not better in some cases than some lead walls while not being reduced to set-up fodder in a meta filled to the brim with powerful wallbreakers. The Icium set is an example of the things that Slowbro's attacking options allow it to do, and shows just how unexplored this Pokemon truly is.

Slowbro may not receive much usage, but it may be one of UU's most unexplored mons currently. Perhaps the A ranks are overshooting it, but high B/B+ seems very fair for it.
 
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Eyo, thanks for the response. I see where you're going with the idea that Alo and Slowbro aren't really comparable in what they do, you're definitely not wrong, but that wasn't the point of my match-up chart. The idea was to show exactly that: The match-ups. And as you see, Slowbro wins just as many match-ups as Alo does. Its current rank in C- would imply that it has a few very, very specific cases where it is better than other defensive pivots in the metagame, but generally sacrifices too many wins to be worth considering, and again, that clearly is not the case at all.

What changed for Slowbro? Nothing really. I just think that for whatever reason people overhated on it and acted like the extra weaknesses from the Psychic typing were unexcusable. While it may seem that way on paper, in practice, the extra weaknesses aren't a super huge deal, and can be worked around fairly easily via Regenerator and team support. What typically ends up happening is that Slowbro takes a hit, chunks the attacker back (sometimes koing them) and then healing off all the damage with Regen.

Sure, Alomomola may have WishTect, which is undoubtedly very nice for the balance and stall teams it is prominent on, but what Slowbro has is actual presence as a THREAT. Contrary to what you said, I did acknowledge Marth's Icium Slowbro set, so allow me to clarify. Wait makes Slowbro a worthy competitor to other bulky Pokemon in the tier is that it can actually fire back surprisingly hard with 100 base Special Attack and a surplus of coverage, meaning it can tank hits just as well, if not better in some cases than some lead walls while not being reduced to set-up fodder in a meta filled to the brim with powerful wallbreakers. The Icium set is an example of the things that Slowbro's attacking options allow it to do, and shows just how unexplored this Pokemon truly is.

Slowbro may not receive much usage, but it may be one of UU's most unexplored mons currently. Perhaps the A ranks are overshooting it, but high B/B+ seems very fair for it.
You're still missing out what xMarth was pointing out in his first post. It seems like you're turning this nom into your own nom, especially with the set you posted. xMarth's set is perfectly fine to work off of. The match-up chart was okay and all but, you're just repeating everything xMarth and Freeroamer have already said. xMarth previously pointed out that Slowbro has similar match-ups with Alomomola, and Freeroamer already acknowledged what has been said. It's cool to spread the word, as the vr council likes that, but make sure to add in something different.

Just going to add this on: it's not like people haven't recognized what Slowbro can do in the UU tier. While talking in chat a lot, I've heard people mention z-sets in tandem with Slowbro quite a few times before the nomination. I think what the major change is, is that xMarth has brought up good points by comparing Slowbro with upper ranked pokemon that do similar jobs, emphasizing the niches Slowbro has over it's competition. AV and colbur were talked about before then, hydro vortex took their place very quickly. The EVs were usually placed in special defense or mixing it up in special attack & special defense. The key difference with xMarth's set is being able to take advantage of there being more mons weak to ice moves in this meta by putting emphasis on the z crystal boosting ice beam. This works great with scald that handles a lot of mons that resist ice or at the very least burning them, leading to a harsh crippling effect like with Scizor. The meta has definitely shifted in Slowbro's favor, and xMarth found the right set to take advantage of it the most.

I also agree Breloom should be in A+ or S rank (skip the elitists with PIF! haha just kidding). Breloom can provide some really good lure strategies with it's team mates, whether it's spore, facade, rock tomb (rare), or natural gift. Weird thing is, it even has a couple bulky sets (bulk up + poison heal) that are pretty decent. It's SD sets are definitely on par with SD Scizor, Double Dance Gliscor, and choice band Azumarill. All four have very customize-able sets that disrupt the meta.

Mega Pidgeot to A rank makes a lot of sense. I agree with this too. Definitely an easy mon to use that loves to spam Hurricane throughout the game. The work-up stallbreaker set and the 3 attacks + roost set are both annoying to go up against for any team. Mega Manectric is arguably the best mega in the tier due to the momentum it brings to the table but, Mega Pidgeot could end up there due to Hurricane being a pain to deal with. Not only that but, it does have better ways around some of it's checks (like work-up stallbreaker set vs Blissey; although it does forgo being able to hit steel types with Heat Wave) in comparison with M-Mane (although it can run HP grass for Quagsire and Swampert, it still forgoes being able to hit dragons + gliscor with HP ice).
 
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Breloom A > A+ Agree
Breloom is one of those threats that can pick off of its own counters. It is able to run Rock Tomb for flying types, Natural Gift for Amoonguss and Mega-Altaria. The only thing that would potentially drive it away from A tier is the four move syndrome (Which btw is the same problem Gliscor has but is S rank due to the strengths it possesses). Mach Punch priority is also appreciated on its movepool and makes it slightly harder to revenge kill.

Mega-Aggron A- > A Disagree
Admittedly it’s ability to fend off against the tiers physical attackers even those that sport super effective moves is nice on Balance or Stall teams, but it’s lack of recovery can be a huge problem for it being overwhelmed by hazard stacking or Voltturn. It’s good but not worthy for a rise.

Stakataka A- > B+ Disagree
The hype is dead for it but I still think it’s ability to setup Trick Room on common mons like Latias, non-SuperPower Scizor, A-Muk, and its ability to potentially 6-0 Offensive teams on its own shouldn’t be messed with. Also Mamoswine leaving is also appreciated.

Mega-Houndoom B+ > A- Agree
Fire/Dark is a scary offensive typing with the combination of Nasty Plot. A great speed tier as well that picks off of Gengar and Latias and has decent enough bulk to be able to set up at least one Nasty Plot. I have doubted this thing before when it came back, but now I actually think it has some potential.

Chandelure B > B+ Not sure
I don’t know what side to pick here. Scizor, Breloom, Serperior, and Infernape being such common threats with it being able to either check them or straight up counter them. But it’s average speed tier and weakness to Pursuit trappers is unappreciated. Rock weakness can strict the amount of times it can come in and needs lots of support for it to work (Manly defoggers).

Tsareena C+ > C Agreed
An answer to Breloom and Azumarill. But it’s main issue is it’s matchup vs the rest of the tier.

Azumarill-Very good matchup but doesn’t like swapping into Play Rough.

Gliscor-Wins vs defensive variants that don’t carry Toxic or U-Turn and removes Toxic Orb with Knock Off but will have trouble with SD sets.

Scizor-Scizor eats this flower for breakfast

Mega-Aerodactyl-Meh matchup for Tsareena, especially since Aerial Ace is a problem.

Mega-Altaria-Easy DD setup

Hydreigon-Nukes it with Draco or Fire Blast but doesn’t like swapping into a Play Rough or HJK

Latias-A favorable matchup for Tsareena if it doesn’t swap in into a Draco or Psychic.

Mega-Manectric-MegaMane can either Volt Switch or Flamethrower/Overheat

Serperior-HP Fire 2HKOs

Amoonguss-Do I have to explain this one

Breloom-Good matchup if it carries Play Rough

I don’t want to continue cause it would be too long but I hope I proved my point. I still think beating many common rockers is neat so I wouldn’t want it to drop any further.

Tentacruel B+ > A- Agree
I don’t see any problems with this nom. Liquid Ooze allows it to potentially beat Sub Seed Serperior and is able to check a wide variety of threats. Water/Poison is a very valuable typing rn and being a spinner and blanket check in one slot is well appreciated imo.

And now for my own nom that a lot of people may disagree with.

Decidueye C+ > B-
I know this thing rose a rank just a while ago, but the meta has been kind to it lately. I appreciates the lack of presence from Mandibuzz and the ever so dominant Azumarill being present as well. It does a good job with breaking defensive cores. I have found Substitute to be useful for it as it allows it to setup a SD against non-roar variants of Swampert, Blissey, and Alomomola. It also has a favorable niche in being the only ghost type ranked that isn’t completely bodied by Alolan-Muk as +2 Sinister Arrow Raid OHKOs after rocks

Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 324-382 (92.3 - 108.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

It’s speed tier gives it a niche over SD Scizor, BD Azumarill, and SD Crawdaunt and the better matchup vs Serperior and Amoonguss gives it a niche over Breloom. Of course it’s not without its flaws like meh bulk, needing an SD to do damage, and being easy to revenge kill due to the lack of helpful priority moves. (Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch don’t really do much for Decid) But overall the meta has favored the owl and I feel B- could possibly represent that.
 

Jade

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Mega-Aggron A- > A Disagree
Admittedly it’s ability to fend off against the tiers physical attackers even those that sport super effective moves is nice on Balance or Stall teams, but it’s lack of recovery can be a huge problem for it being overwhelmed by hazard stacking or Voltturn. It’s good but not worthy for a rise.
Mega Aggrons lack of recovery can easily be solved by pairing it with a cleric. Mega Aggron + Sylveon + Suicune is one of the best cores for balance at the moment, with Sylveon keeping it and Suicune healthy to prevent it from being overwhelemed. As an added bonus, Sylveon + Mega Aggron + Suicune go great together type-wise, and Heal Bell from Sylveon keeps it away from status.Mega Aggron should not be switching in on Manectric anyway, as it does not like taking Volt Switch much. Getting overwhelemed by U-Turn is very unlikely as once again, Sylveon can keep it healthy by WishPassing. Many teams love Mega Aggrons ability to check physical attackers and some special attackers. Stall also commonly runs Alomomola, a Heal Bell user, or Wish Blissey, both of which can keep it healthy.

Also, Tsareena can beat Breloom without Play Rough (why are you using this over Knock/U-Turn/HJK anyway?): Power Whip is a 2HKO. How does Tsareena beat Latias? It resists Power Whip and Latias can Draco Meteor, Psychic, or Ice Beam it. I believe C+ is a fine rank for it at the moment.
 
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Breloom A > A+ Agree
Breloom is one of those threats that can pick off of its own counters. It is able to run Rock Tomb for flying types, Natural Gift for Amoonguss and Mega-Altaria. The only thing that would potentially drive it away from A tier is the four move syndrome (Which btw is the same problem Gliscor has but is S rank due to the strengths it possesses). Mach Punch priority is also appreciated on its movepool and makes it slightly harder to revenge kill.

Mega-Aggron A- > A Disagree
Admittedly it’s ability to fend off against the tiers physical attackers even those that sport super effective moves is nice on Balance or Stall teams, but it’s lack of recovery can be a huge problem for it being overwhelmed by hazard stacking or Voltturn. It’s good but not worthy for a rise.

Stakataka A- > B+ Disagree
The hype is dead for it but I still think it’s ability to setup Trick Room on common mons like Latias, non-SuperPower Scizor, A-Muk, and its ability to potentially 6-0 Offensive teams on its own shouldn’t be messed with. Also Mamoswine leaving is also appreciated.

Mega-Houndoom B+ > A- Agree
Fire/Dark is a scary offensive typing with the combination of Nasty Plot. A great speed tier as well that picks off of Gengar and Latias and has decent enough bulk to be able to set up at least one Nasty Plot. I have doubted this thing before when it came back, but now I actually think it has some potential.

Chandelure B > B+ Not sure
I don’t know what side to pick here. Scizor, Breloom, Serperior, and Infernape being such common threats with it being able to either check them or straight up counter them. But it’s average speed tier and weakness to Pursuit trappers is unappreciated. Rock weakness can strict the amount of times it can come in and needs lots of support for it to work (Manly defoggers).

Tsareena C+ > C Agreed
An answer to Breloom and Azumarill. But it’s main issue is it’s matchup vs the rest of the tier.

Azumarill-Very good matchup but doesn’t like swapping into Play Rough.

Gliscor-Wins vs defensive variants that don’t carry Toxic or U-Turn and removes Toxic Orb with Knock Off but will have trouble with SD sets.

Scizor-Scizor eats this flower for breakfast

Mega-Aerodactyl-Meh matchup for Tsareena, especially since Aerial Ace is a problem.

Mega-Altaria-Easy DD setup

Hydreigon-Nukes it with Draco or Fire Blast but doesn’t like swapping into a Play Rough or HJK

Latias-A favorable matchup for Tsareena if it doesn’t swap in into a Draco or Psychic.

Mega-Manectric-MegaMane can either Volt Switch or Flamethrower/Overheat

Serperior-HP Fire 2HKOs

Amoonguss-Do I have to explain this one

Breloom-Good matchup if it carries Play Rough

I don’t want to continue cause it would be too long but I hope I proved my point. I still think beating many common rockers is neat so I wouldn’t want it to drop any further.

Tentacruel B+ > A- Agree
I don’t see any problems with this nom. Liquid Ooze allows it to potentially beat Sub Seed Serperior and is able to check a wide variety of threats. Water/Poison is a very valuable typing rn and being a spinner and blanket check in one slot is well appreciated imo.

And now for my own nom that a lot of people may disagree with.

Decidueye C+ > B-
I know this thing rose a rank just a while ago, but the meta has been kind to it lately. I appreciates the lack of presence from Mandibuzz and the ever so dominant Azumarill being present as well. It does a good job with breaking defensive cores. I have found Substitute to be useful for it as it allows it to setup a SD against non-roar variants of Swampert, Blissey, and Alomomola. It also has a favorable niche in being the only ghost type ranked that isn’t completely bodied by Alolan-Muk as +2 Sinister Arrow Raid OHKOs after rocks

Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 324-382 (92.3 - 108.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

It’s speed tier gives it a niche over SD Scizor, BD Azumarill, and SD Crawdaunt and the better matchup vs Serperior and Amoonguss gives it a niche over Breloom. Of course it’s not without its flaws like meh bulk, needing an SD to do damage, and being easy to revenge kill due to the lack of helpful priority moves. (Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch don’t really do much for Decid) But overall the meta has favored the owl and I feel B- could possibly represent that.
Decidueye should not rise again imo. The influx of Mega Aggron and dark mons like Alola muk and Hydreigon do it no justice. Common threats like Scizor, Hydreigon, and Mega Pidgeot hurt it badly, and Breloom sorely outclasses it as a grass type attacker, with more attack, a better secondary type, spore, and Stab Priority. While it seems strong with SD Z-move, why would you use Decidueye over other boosters and your Z-move slot when you can be using more viable SD Z move users like Haxorus, Crawdaunt, Breloom, and Scizor, who all hit harder than Decidueye at +2.
 
B -> B+ Agree
I've recently been testing out Scarf Chandelure and its been putting in some work as a revenge killer. After a bit of prior damage, HP Ice OHKOs Gliscor. Also, it being a nice check to Nape and Sciz. With the popularity of stall, Chandy's SubCM set does fairly well against it. Using Blissey as set-up bait.
252 SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 208 SpD Gliscor: 284-336 (80.6 - 95.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252 SpA Chandelure Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 360-428 (102.2 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Chandelure Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Alomomola: 556-655 (115.5 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Chandelure: 62-74 (23.7 - 28.3%) -- 91.3% chance to 4HKO

252 SpA Chandelure Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 400-472 (101.5 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Quagsire Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 206-246 (78.9 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Infernape: 187-222 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Nape could have Stone Edge)

A -> A+ Agree
This mon wrecks havoc across Offensive teams. With Spore on an offensive mon like this, its forcing some to run items/other abilities just to block spore (Safety Goggles Bat, Overcoat Kommo-o) After a SD it gets even more dangerous with priority Mach Punch. So, faster threats that might revenge kill it now think twice.
 
I feel that people are not realizing what changed for Slowbro to actually make it rise.
Before rotom-w was in the tier, voltturn was everywhere which slowbro hated a lot and hence it was ranked so low.
Now that rotom-w has gone(few months back I do believe), voltturn died out a bit due to loss of its arguably main pivoter and hence that niche can be enough to warrant a rise for slowbro
 
Volcanion B+ ->A
Primarina A -> B+
Frankly volcanion is getting disrespected. Sure his typing leaves him weak to rocks but he is still much better than prim. For one he isnt forced out by serperior which is dangerous as hell if u give serp a turn to do whatever it wants. Get off the fairy type hype people this is gen 7 get over it. His typing is simply better than prims. Prims typing and fairy stab allow it to beat the dragons of uu. Cool it has a niche thats why it should be B+. Things that volcanion beats that prim doesnt are : mega beedrill, +0 serp with rocks up against u, muk a, amoongus, gengar, tsareena, celebi, toxicroak, abamasnow, ducideye, roserade, salazzle, venomoth, klefki, mega sceptile, and volcanion wont be worn down quick by switching into scizors bullet punch. Not to mention that steam eruption is twice as good as whatever pathetic water stab primarina is running. It is a disgrace to the tier to have weird seal thing above the burn spreading powerhouse.
 

Rabia

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Volcanion B+ ->A
Primarina A -> B+
Frankly volcanion is getting disrespected. Sure his typing leaves him weak to rocks but he is still much better than prim. For one he isnt forced out by serperior which is dangerous as hell if u give serp a turn to do whatever it wants. Get off the fairy type hype people this is gen 7 get over it. His typing is simply better than prims. Prims typing and fairy stab allow it to beat the dragons of uu. Cool it has a niche thats why it should be B+. Things that volcanion beats that prim doesnt are : mega beedrill, +0 serp with rocks up against u, muk a, amoongus, gengar, tsareena, celebi, toxicroak, abamasnow, ducideye, roserade, salazzle, venomoth, klefki, mega sceptile, and volcanion wont be worn down quick by switching into scizors bullet punch. Not to mention that steam eruption is twice as good as whatever pathetic water stab primarina is running. It is a disgrace to the tier to have weird seal thing above the burn spreading powerhouse.
This seems like a really biased nomination. You're saying Primarina doesn't beat those Pokemon, but you're giving no context for what you mean by "doesn't beat them" (under what circumstances are you addressing?). None of these Pokemon you have listed can really switch-in safely to Primarina considering its coverage beats whatever resists its STAB moves (think Psychic) and most of what you listed just gets bopped by either Moonblast or Hydro Pump. Yeah Volcanion is a good Pokemon and it may be underrated (I don't know where I stand on that tbh), but your nomination is a bit too empty (also some of the Pokemon you mentioned aren't really relevant - Roserade is a Digimon and others you listed just don't get usage).
 

Jade

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Volcanion B+ ->A
Primarina A -> B+
Frankly volcanion is getting disrespected. Sure his typing leaves him weak to rocks but he is still much better than prim. For one he isnt forced out by serperior which is dangerous as hell if u give serp a turn to do whatever it wants. Get off the fairy type hype people this is gen 7 get over it. His typing is simply better than prims. Prims typing and fairy stab allow it to beat the dragons of uu. Cool it has a niche thats why it should be B+. Things that volcanion beats that prim doesnt are : mega beedrill, +0 serp with rocks up against u, muk a, amoongus, gengar, tsareena, celebi, toxicroak, abamasnow, ducideye, roserade, salazzle, venomoth, klefki, mega sceptile, and volcanion wont be worn down quick by switching into scizors bullet punch. Not to mention that steam eruption is twice as good as whatever pathetic water stab primarina is running. It is a disgrace to the tier to have weird seal thing above the burn spreading powerhouse.
I disagree with this nomination. All the Pokemon you listed cannot switch in to Primarina at all if they predict wrong. This just seems like theorymonning/a biased nomination. Primarina should not drop, despite Azu giving it competition, it is still a great mon. Primarina wont want to stay in on a Scizor BP anyway. I wouldnt call a 90 BP move that bypasses Substitutes "pathetic." Giving Serp a free turn also isn't the worst, as every good team has a Serp check or something that can force it out. Also, you listed some mons that arent relevant such as Roserade. Most of the others you mentioned such as Toxicroak and Abomasnow don't get much usage.
 
Volcanion B+ ->A
Primarina A -> B+
Frankly volcanion is getting disrespected. Sure his typing leaves him weak to rocks but he is still much better than prim. For one he isnt forced out by serperior which is dangerous as hell if u give serp a turn to do whatever it wants. Get off the fairy type hype people this is gen 7 get over it. His typing is simply better than prims. Prims typing and fairy stab allow it to beat the dragons of uu. Cool it has a niche thats why it should be B+. Things that volcanion beats that prim doesnt are : mega beedrill, +0 serp with rocks up against u, muk a, amoongus, gengar, tsareena, celebi, toxicroak, abamasnow, ducideye, roserade, salazzle, venomoth, klefki, mega sceptile, and volcanion wont be worn down quick by switching into scizors bullet punch. Not to mention that steam eruption is twice as good as whatever pathetic water stab primarina is running. It is a disgrace to the tier to have weird seal thing above the burn spreading powerhouse.
This comment was frankly a roller coaster from start to finish. Before I get into this comment, I'd like to add a bit of context as to why B+ is a more than enough for Volcanion. During the Rotom Wash era, Volc was all the way at B- as it simply could not handle the increase in volt turn. After Rotom's absence, slow Pokémon that were annoyed by the archetype slowly began to rise. Volcano on was one of them. This is about as simply as I can put it.

Fairy type is good for a reason. While fairires scared off much of the fighting and dark types, the ability to take on all the dragons (Latias being a top tier threat) and resistance to the common u-turn is nothing to scoff at. It may not be a fail safe check dragons, but it's better than nothing. Typing is frankly not a strong argument as both utilize coverage to hit would be checks and counters. However, for the sake of this argument, Primarina has an objectively better offensive typing. Water/Fairy simply has better coverage than Water/Fire hitting Azu and Latias much harder tha Volc's coverage (and trust me these are the threats you don't want to set up). You lose out on a reliable way of hitting Amoongus but then again that's what coverage is for.

And this is the niche that Primarina has: being extremely difficult to switch in. Both of these Pokémon have concise movepools that build upon their STABs. Primarina's job is far more easier as it has to pick coverage that hits specific threats (Amoongus -->Psychic | Other bulky waters --> Energy Ball). Volcanion has to run a grass move for other bulky waters (and even then, it risks being stalled out by SubTect Cune), sludge wave for altaria and and ice move for dragons. Fitting these moves as well as accompanying support moves (I.e sub) is a lot harder as a result.

Now comes the fun part, what volcanion "checks".
  • Mega Beedrill - Drill run exists - Can KO weakened Volc or Beedrill just switches out aka no net gain for Volc user
  • Amoongus - Prim has psychic but fair enough
  • Gengar - Does not switch in at all. Purely a 1v1 scenario
  • Muk A - Moonblast exists and that match up is based on the implication that Volc has either a ground move or burns Muk
  • Tsareena - Niche. Can't Switch in
  • Celebi - If a celebi happens to get up nasty plot or SD on either of these mons, you should be afraid. Also gets u-turn
  • Toxicroak - As a person who used this on many Fighting mono teams, Toxicroak is NOT a reliable fairy check. Also niche. And psychic exists.
  • Abomasnow - As a person who built a team with Abomasnow once then forgot about it, I can confidently say that switching into Aboma is a nightmare. SD sets can beat Volc by the virtue of wood hammer alone. It also gets Earthquake. Niche.
  • Decidueye - It has a better MU against Prim than Volc. You know why? Because it's a trapper (of sorts). Either way, niche.
  • Roserade - Roserade is a Pokémon that can faint to a slight breeze. It's a really niche and sets up on both by virtue of sleep powder (or spore - whichever one)
  • Salazzle - You're kidding me. Neither can take +2 Acid Downpour.
  • Venomoth - If it didn't have sleep powder or tinted lense or quiver dance or decent stats or a workable move pool then yes, Volcanion has a better match up
  • Klefki - ? Pretty sure Klef does not like a specs hydro to the face.
  • Mega Sceptile - Haha
  • Volcanion - I see the argument here, it's like Lando checking Lando - however that argument is for assessing the healthiness of a Pokémon not its viability.
Summary of "checks":
  • Faster poison types that can't switch in
  • Grass types that prim can beat 1v1
  • Klefki
  • Giving serp free turns (whilst casually ignoring Volcanion can give Latias free turns)
Typing is good and all for measuring the viability of a Pokémon (see gliscor and scizor) but it should not be the sole factor for a nomination. Metagame trends and match ups should also be accounted for in nominations. This is one of the reasons why I stick to browsing these threads.

And while I'm at it: agree on the slowbro moving up.
 
This comment was frankly a roller coaster from start to finish. Before I get into this comment, I'd like to add a bit of context as to why B+ is a more than enough for Volcanion. During the Rotom Wash era, Volc was all the way at B- as it simply could not handle the increase in volt turn. After Rotom's absence, slow Pokémon that were annoyed by the archetype slowly began to rise. Volcano on was one of them. This is about as simply as I can put it.

Fairy type is good for a reason. While fairires scared off much of the fighting and dark types, the ability to take on all the dragons (Latias being a top tier threat) and resistance to the common u-turn is nothing to scoff at. It may not be a fail safe check dragons, but it's better than nothing. Typing is frankly not a strong argument as both utilize coverage to hit would be checks and counters. However, for the sake of this argument, Primarina has an objectively better offensive typing. Water/Fairy simply has better coverage than Water/Fire hitting Azu and Latias much harder tha Volc's coverage (and trust me these are the threats you don't want to set up). You lose out on a reliable way of hitting Amoongus but then again that's what coverage is for.

And this is the niche that Primarina has: being extremely difficult to switch in. Both of these Pokémon have concise movepools that build upon their STABs. Primarina's job is far more easier as it has to pick coverage that hits specific threats (Amoongus -->Psychic | Other bulky waters --> Energy Ball). Volcanion has to run a grass move for other bulky waters (and even then, it risks being stalled out by SubTect Cune), sludge wave for altaria and and ice move for dragons. Fitting these moves as well as accompanying support moves (I.e sub) is a lot harder as a result.

Now comes the fun part, what volcanion "checks".
  • Mega Beedrill - Drill run exists - Can KO weakened Volc or Beedrill just switches out aka no net gain for Volc user
  • Amoongus - Prim has psychic but fair enough
  • Gengar - Does not switch in at all. Purely a 1v1 scenario
  • Muk A - Moonblast exists and that match up is based on the implication that Volc has either a ground move or burns Muk
  • Tsareena - Niche. Can't Switch in
  • Celebi - If a celebi happens to get up nasty plot or SD on either of these mons, you should be afraid. Also gets u-turn
  • Toxicroak - As a person who used this on many Fighting mono teams, Toxicroak is NOT a reliable fairy check. Also niche. And psychic exists.
  • Abomasnow - As a person who built a team with Abomasnow once then forgot about it, I can confidently say that switching into Aboma is a nightmare. SD sets can beat Volc by the virtue of wood hammer alone. It also gets Earthquake. Niche.
  • Decidueye - It has a better MU against Prim than Volc. You know why? Because it's a trapper (of sorts). Either way, niche.
  • Roserade - Roserade is a Pokémon that can faint to a slight breeze. It's a really niche and sets up on both by virtue of sleep powder (or spore - whichever one)
  • Salazzle - You're kidding me. Neither can take +2 Acid Downpour.
  • Venomoth - If it didn't have sleep powder or tinted lense or quiver dance or decent stats or a workable move pool then yes, Volcanion has a better match up
  • Klefki - ? Pretty sure Klef does not like a specs hydro to the face.
  • Mega Sceptile - Haha
  • Volcanion - I see the argument here, it's like Lando checking Lando - however that argument is for assessing the healthiness of a Pokémon not its viability.
Summary of "checks":
  • Faster poison types that can't switch in
  • Grass types that prim can beat 1v1
  • Klefki
  • Giving serp free turns (whilst casually ignoring Volcanion can give Latias free turns)
Typing is good and all for measuring the viability of a Pokémon (see gliscor and scizor) but it should not be the sole factor for a nomination. Metagame trends and match ups should also be accounted for in nominations. This is one of the reasons why I stick to browsing these threads.

And while I'm at it: agree on the slowbro moving up.
I think you're ignoring some of Volcanions arguably best traits, which is being able to switch in on any Azumarill set and beat it and also revengekiling SD scizor. Not alot of pokemon can do that. I have found the sub/steam/blast/sludge set with lefties to be very good, as Volcanion often forces alot of guessing games and ppl tend to pivot around. The sub set really screws over the typical counterplay to the more common specs set while also spreading burns. I dont think the primarina volcanion comparison makes to much sense as they check completely different mons defensively. (I also think primarina got worse with the introduction of breloom since it is outsped and ohkoed. Volcanion can atleast tie with it)
 

Jade

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I think you're ignoring some of Volcanions arguably best traits, which is being able to switch in on any Azumarill set and beat it and also revengekiling SD scizor. Not alot of pokemon can do that. I have found the sub/steam/blast/sludge set with lefties to be very good, as Volcanion often forces alot of guessing games and ppl tend to pivot around. The sub set really screws over the typical counterplay to the more common specs set while also spreading burns. I dont think the primarina volcanion comparison makes to much sense as they check completely different mons defensively. (I also think primarina got worse with the introduction of breloom since it is outsped and ohkoed. Volcanion can atleast tie with it)
I know Timid Primarina is not common, but it actually outspeeds Adamant Loom by 1 point. Neither should stay in against Breloom anyway imo, as both of them hate taking Bullet Seeds or being put to sleep. While you can argue Prima good worse, I still believe it is fine in A and should not move down.

Also:

Mega Pidgeot to A: Yes please.

This mon is ridiculous. Most teams only carry Mega Manectric as their flying resist, which can only switch in once. Some dont even have a Flying resist. It is also an excellent stallbreaker. Ive found a core of Mega Pidgey + Crobat to be effective, as they can easily overwhelm their checks. Crobat also provides defog support.

Here are the sets I use: http://pokepast.es/b9c69cdb4383f3e3
 
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This mon is ridiculous. Most teams only carry Mega Manectric as their flying resist, which can only switch in once. Some dont even have a Flying resist. It is also an excellent stallbreaker. Ive found a core of Mega Pidgey + Crobat to be effective, as they can easily overwhelm their checks. Crobat also provides defog support.
100% Agree with this nom. Few teams have flying resists. Steel types like Magneton and Mega Aggron hate taking a Heat Wave. Rock types like Terrakion arent coming in on a Hurricane. Stakataka and MAero Dont like the damage that adds up. (Mega Aero can carry roost). I like that core too.
 

Hilomilo

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Just checking in to let everyone know that the update is going to be some time after this suspect. It'll either be the Sunday that the suspect is over, or a week afterward in order to properly rank Mega Slowbro. If it is this coming Sunday, Mega Slowbro's new placement will be a discussion point.

Another thing I'd like to address is the recent Volcanion discussion we just had. It's never a bad thing posting your rebuttal of a nomination, though continuing to refute someone else's nomination after another person has already done it is really counterproductive. I didn't see a whole lot of value in the rebuttal posts that weren't MewBby's, and if anything they seemed as though they were made more for the purpose of receiving likes than contributing to thread discussion. It was evident enough that we were beating a dead horse that a few different people expressed their concerns regarding this thread's recent quality to me, so for the future, I encourage that we do our best to refrain from continuing to express disagreement with another person's opinion after it has been made clear that said opinion is likely one coming from a place of bias. One person calling it out is necessary, multiple people doing it is not.

While I'm still here, I figured I'd talk about some of the changes I'd be personally interested in seeing made to the rankings with the coming update, since it's been a while and I miss makin ma noms ;-; hope you guys enjoy!

Latias up to S
This has been a really tricky one for the ranking council ever since the beginning of this particular thread, but after thinking about it some I'm definitely of the opinion that Latias is S caliber at this stage in the metagame. It's really proving through the resurgence of its Z-Thunder set that it's extremely adaptable and capable of circumventing its very few weaknesses thanks to its extreme versatility. Its massive movepool has been key to the success and consistency of particularly its Calm Mind and Choice Scarf sets, which are both established as premier sweeping/revenge killing sets. The variety of metagame staples it can cover with options such as Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, HP Fire, and more is truly unbelievable and it's what gives Latias the absolutely devastating prowess it has. I think that while meta trends have been working against it more than usual since the creation of this thread, this has only allowed Latias to showcase its adaptability, as has been seen by the increased usage of Thunderbolt/Thunder in its respective Choice Scarf/CM sets, the inclusion of Ice Beam onto some of its sets, and even the innovation of Life Orb Earthquake or Groundium Z that can be used to lure in Alolan Muk. Overall Latias is an overwhelmingly defining threat that by virtue of its amazing offensive prowess, versatility, and constraint on teambuilding is totally deserving of placement in the highest possible rank.

Mega Sceptile down to B
This guy has felt underwhelming for me ever since Rotom-W left the tier. The loss of the washing machine severely hurt Mega Sceptile in that now it's a lot more hard pressed to find opportunities to come into play without support from a pivot, though it also hasn't been taking too kindly to a few other metagame trends. Mega Aggron is extremely good and prominent right now, which severely hurts Mega Sceptile in that if it wishes to use Focus Blast to cover it, it either has to sacrifice valuable recovery in the form of Giga Drain or its only way of reliably damaging Scizor in Hidden Power Fire. Mega Sceptile also dislikes the current popularity of Dragon-type Choice Scarf users (those being Latias and Hydreigon), as well as the presence of Serperior. Not only does Serperior give Sceptile significant competition, though the tier's adaptations to Serperior's presence have hurt Mega Sceptile arguably more than they've hurt the garden snek. It's very limited in its ability to deal with either of Amoonguss or Alolan Muk unless it wants to run its really situational and gimmicky SD set, while other risen checks to Serperior in Moltres, Crobat, and choice scarfed Fire-types can also be very hard for Mega Sceptile to combat. Overall, the metagame just seems to be working against Mega Sceptile than allowing it to shine, which despite its ability to revenge kill BD Azumarill reliably (which is something several other Pokemon in the tier are capable of), is why I think a drop is justified right now.

Metagross down to C+
This one took some thinking, but I've concluded that Metagross doesn't have enough current usability to justify placement in the B rankings. It's just faced with major competition in all of the roles it tries pursuing, and while it certainly isn't a bad Pokemon it just doesn't have a defined niche in the metagame. All of its best sets (AV, Mixed Lure, and Rocks) are sets designed to cover a specific array of threats, though since they all cover such different Pokemon Metagross is super susceptible to struggling to pull any weight in a match whatsoever depending on matchup. It also has some pretty notable power issues that mostly stem from its lack of access to a move that boosts Attack unless you wanna count Meteor Mash. Moreover, a lot of metagame trends work more against Metagross than help it, some being the increased usage of Fire-type Choice Scarfers like Volcanion and Chandelure, Hydreigon's increased prominence since USM, the rise of Mega Aggron, and the increased viability of bulkier builds that can repeatedly stomach hits from this guy. It's just really struggling to have a viable niche that it can consistently perform without being mostly outclassed, and I don't think that B- really represents its worth in the tier anymore.

As if this post wasn't long enough, I'd enjoy weighing in on some of our current discussion points:
Chandelure up to B+: Agree
I really enjoy using Chandelure right now, especially the Choice Scarf set. The biggest thing currently working against it is Alolan Muk's prevalence, though it really prays on the popularity of Pokemon like Serperior and Breloom as a Pokemon capable of revenge killing them extremely reliably. It also provides a lot of utility as a check to potentially very troublesome Pokemon in Cobalion, Scizor, and Infernape, and overall currently brings enough to the table to warrant being in the same rank as two other Fire-types in Moltres and Volcanion.

Mega Aggron up to A: On the fence, leaning agree

Mega Aggron has been increasing in prominence for a while now, and there's really no denying at this point that it's an amazing pick. It's great at blanket checking a large portion of the metagame, including eleven of the sixteen Pokemon residing in ranks S through A, and it's also got an insane matchup against a lot of Pokemon with recently increased viability, including Crobat, Amoonguss after it's used Spore, and Doublade, which I personally believe to have gotten more worth using since Breloom's introduction. The one thing keeping me from flat out agreeing with this nomination is that I just don't know how influential this guy is in comparison to the rest of A. Its lack of recovery among some other minor flaws can hurt it a lot considering it may overwhelm itself as it tries checking so many Pokemon. It's just hard for me personally to gauge whether Mega Aggron is up to snuff with the Pokemon currently in A, or if it's just among the better A- Pokemon and doesn't necessarily need a rise, though the arguments for an upgrade in rank seem more compelling than ever.

Mega Houndoom up to A-: Disagree

This is also a hard one, though for me what should mainly keep Mega Houndoom from rising is how it compares to the rest of A-. I personally just don't believe it to be a Pokemon as valuable to the teams it's fitted on as what else is in B+, especially considering that it has a more occupied role (Fire-type Nasty Plot breaker) than the vast majority of Pokemon residing in ranks B+ and above, which means increased competition/opportunity cost. Being just generally not as consistent in its role as what currently sits in A- in tandem with having so-so responses to meta trends (it likes Mega Aggron's prevalence but doesn't like the popularity of breloom, azumarill, mega aero, scarfers like ape/volc/hydreigon) is why I think B+ is just about perfect for now, especially considering that doom vs. salazzle is still a bit of a debate.

I hope you guys enjoyed reading! Let's hope that we can continue healthy discussion until the suspect concludes, and please guys, make sure we aren't beating a dead horse as we refute points of someone that is more than likely of an obviously biased/flawed opinion. Thanks for your cooperation thus far :)
 

Jade

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Latias to S: Yes!

Honestly, why did this change happen? Latias is still as good as ever, and as Milo said, it is very versatile in the sets it can run.

I feel like CM Electrium Z is very great right now, as it hits Steels instead of having to forego HP Fire. It's a good wallbreaker, although not too great against stall. It's very easy for it to find an opportunity to set up, such as against Amoonguss (when a partner is already asleep), Breloom (same as Amoonguss), and most passive Pokemon without a way to damage it. Gliscor is another great mon that it sets up on, as it can fear the Ice Beam, or has nothing to hit it with. It can even beat itself if the opposing Lati is scarf and it has +1, as shown by these calcs:

252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 204-240 (67.5 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 302-356 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Another set I feel is great is Scarf. Scarf Lati is, in my opinion, the best form of speed control we have, with a great 110 speed. It can serve as a soft check to things like Mega Manectric. It's also good at supporting teammates with Trick and Healing Wish. Though I hate using it, Scarf Defog also works for emergency hazard removal. However, I think Hydreigon is better at Scarf Defog if you must use it, as it does not get Pursuit trapped as easily.

Other noms cbb to write about: Agree with Scept to B, disagree with Doomer to A-, agree with Metagross to C+

There are other sets such as Defog/Recover/STABs and Specs, but for now these are its best sets imo. Thank you for reading this.

latias.gif
 
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Sup I don't really post too much here anymore but I've played a fair amount and have really enjoyed the current metagame. Glad we are out of the dark ages of veil offense. Anyways for the discussion points:

Latias-->S: Agree

This mon easily defines what an S-ranked threat is -- easy to fit on many team archetypes, can bypass many of its checks (Z-thunder), and has a great amount of utility (HW on scarf). The main counterargument to this rise is that muk exists and the existence of many bulky steels (aggron, empoleon) that can hard check it. However, this logic is flawed because really only having situational counters is exactly what makes a mon a top tier threat.

Sceptile-->B: Agree

This thing is very underwhelming. It's main role -- pressuring offensive teams -- is offset by alternatives such as scarf lati and hydreigon, both of which offer far more defensive utility and other benefits (HW support from lati, u-turn from hydreigon). In addition, the prevalence of bulky steel types which completely shit on it unless you run f-blast (even then, you need to hit them on the switch) makes it easily checked by any sort of balance/fatter team.

Aggron-->A: Agree

Fantastic mon that checks half the metagame, notably top-tier threats like lati, aero, altaria, azu, and scizor. This allows it to set rocks easily, and its offensive presence really pressures offense to sack something to heavy slam. The main issue with aggron is that it has a poor matchup against many of the common rockers in the tier (swampert, gliscor, hippo), but its amazing defensive utility more than makes up for this.

Don't really have any thoughts on the other discussion points.
 
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dingbat

snek
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Xatu —> UR: The main reason why xatu was used in the first place was because of the massive influx of Klefkis during the Mega Latias/Mega Garde drops, which it did a very excellent job of rendering ineffective. Nowadays, klefki’s usage especially as a spikes user is heavily reduced especially due to the massive introduction of newer defog users and the banning of said drops, therefore killing the biggest niche Xatu once held in this meta.

Breloom —> A+: If you don’t think spore on a mon that holds much more offensive prowess than Amoonguss justifies it being higher ranked than Amoonguss, then you clearly don’t understand why people are bitching about Loom being broken.

Mega Pidgey —> A: kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw kacaw
 
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Latias to S Rank - > Agreed
Honestly I forgot this Pokemon dropped to A+, I always thought of it being S Rank. Like Milo said, the resurgence of Z-Thunder, alongside Choice Scarf, Calm Mind and even Life Orb/Groundium EQ to potentially lure Muk give it a strong level of unpredictability at team preview. Few weaknesses opposed to it's many, many strengths. Capable of filling multitude of roles in a single set (Defogger, Healing Wish etc.). Honestly I can blabber on for awhile about this Pokemon deserving S Rank, but I'll keep it at that.


Mega Sceptile down to B -> Agreed
As much as I hate to say, considering how much I love this Pokemon, the meta has not been in favor of it and has made it somewhat underwhelming. The surge of Amoonguss and Mega Aggron haven't helped it, alongside the fact that it faces competition of a offensive Grass-Type with Serperior and Breloom also don't help it. It's by no means bad, but it's definitely not a strong mega choice at the moment.

Metagross down to C+ -> Agreed (Could drop even lower)
In my opinion, this is a Digimon. It's just... bad... AV is outclassed by Mega Aggron in almost every way as a blanket, Mixed Lure is pretty gimmicky and Stealth Rocker is, once again, outclassed by Aggron and even Cobalion for Steel-Type Rocker. The rise of Hydreigon, bulkier builds and strong Fire types such as Infernape, Volcanion, Chandelure and Houndoom just warrant this thing to drop. It shouldn't be B-, in fact it shouldn't even be C+, it should honestly drop even further.

Xatu down to UR -> Agreed

Oh look, another Digimon. Seriously this thing was only ranked when Klefki was dominant to check Mega Lati and Gardevoir, and those are gone now, which reduced Klefki's usage (alongside Defoggers being more common).

Speaking of Klefki...

Klefki from A- to B+
First off, Klefki is by no means a bad Pokemon, it still blanket hits from top tier threats such as Latias, Serperior, Pidgeot, Hydreigon etc. but I think this drop should reflect on that fact that it's archetype and the archetypes it preyed on are either on the down low or reduced in viability. Klefki is a Pokemon that strives on archetypes more so than most Pokemon. If spike staking is strong, Klefki's usage sky rockets. If spike staking is weak, Klefki's usage drops as well. There have been cases where Klefki risen in usage due to a Pokemon that it blanket checks, those been Mega Gardevoir and Latias but those are rare incidents and even then spike staking was strong due to VoltTurn being worn down from spikes. Right now, Gliscor nullifies Klefki's work with Defog and archetypes such as VoltTurn have taken a hit with Wash-Tom's departure. When I look at Klefki back when it was A/A- Rank material, I saw it ranked A/A- for it's Spiker set and B+ for it's Screen Setter set in my eyes. Spikes are still strong but staking is very hard to pull off now and it's not as rewarding as it was during the VoltTurn meta, which is why I think it's Spiker set is now B+ material alongside it's Screen Setter set. That's my two cents, but feel free to tell me why you disagree if you do.
 

Jade

why are girls?
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
I would like to nominate: Toxicroak B- to C+.

When I first looked at the B- ranks, I thought Toxicroak's placing was rather awkward. Nearly everything in B- is better than it (especially Kommo-O). It was mainly used because of its niche of being a Water-type absorber resistant to fighting, but with the addition of Breloom, most builds have better work around Suicune than Toxicroak. It dislikes the current meta trends with Mega Aggron becoming more common and the rise of Fire-types.

Speaking of Fire-types, Volcanion offers far more to the team as a Water absorber than Toxicroak. This is where Toxicroak falls short: it is outclassed in its roles. Croak has major competition as a Fighting-type from Lucario, Heracross, etc. It faces major competition as an SDer from Cobalion and Breloom, both of which do their job better. It also faces competition as a NPer from Lucario, who is faster and more powerful.

Other poison types also give it competition, such as Amoonguss (who offers better utility), Crobat (which has better offensive presence with stallbreaking capabilities and speed control, and Alolan Muk (which is ridiculously splashable and blanket checks many dangerous special attackers)

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Toxicroak: 292-345 (95.1 - 112.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 229-271 (74.5 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Toxicroak: 214-253 (69.7 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Aggron-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 272-322 (88.5 - 104.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Thank you for reading, and don't hesitate to reply if you disagree.
 
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I'd just like to focus on Stakataka in this post, since it feels like most of the discussion for it died down and since I use it incredibly often on the ladder:

I strongly disagree with Stakataka dropping any further than A- currently. It is admittedly a lot more prepared for now, especially with Breloom being so powerful and prominent, but the fact that Swampert or revenge killers that can ignore Trick Room, like Breloom, Infernape, or Vacuum Wave Lucario (this mon is sick btw) are the only actual full-stops to Stakataka (and Swampert needs to be relatively healthy so it doesn't get blown up by a boosted Earthquake or an All-Out Pummeling) is a testament to how threatening the Great Wall is. Mamoswine's departure from the tier also gives Stakataka one fewer thing to worry about being unable to set up on.

Though Trick Room as an entire playstyle has since dropped in viability, Stakataka is still more than able to support itself with its own Trick Room. Against offensively-inclined teams Stakataka still often needs only one opening, be it a forced switch or simply living a hit thanks to its good natural bulk, to set up Trick Room and wreak havoc since nothing in the tier can outpace it under Trick Room without resorting to priority. Likewise, nothing on most offensively-inclined teams has any business taking a hit from Stakataka; both Continental Crush and All-Out Pummeling can irreparably damage things that can live normal hits, and after picking up a single boost by predicting correctly and nuking something from orbit Stakataka's few true counters become nothing more than shoddy checks. A +1 Gyro Ball will OHKO almost anything that doesn't resist it if it didn't already tear a gaping hole in the opponent's team without a boost. Earthquake or Superpower is also crucial for hitting Steels that resist Stakataka's STABs, and few if any can take a boosted hit from one.

To summarize:

Though Breloom's introduction to the tier doesn't help Stakataka out much, it is still a very, very clear cut above many of the typical things in B+, and for its ability to often dismantle offense on its own with its incredible immediate wallbreaking power and proceed to snowball out of control immediately off of a single prediction it should remain A-.
 
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