UU -- Are we really using the best?

Chou Toshio

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So, I'm delving more and more into the UU game now, and taking a more careful look through the pokemon themselves. When I first started playing, I basically picked a team of the 6 sweepers that seemed to stand out to me most in discussions (scyther, swellow, ninetales, nidoking, hitmonlee and absol) and just went with it to see how it went. Obviously it didn't go very well. lol

But because of repeated trials, I started switching members, and eventually found better balance points. From the start I knew I was going for an all-offensive team, and after a while the team started to shape out with more even resistances for better switch ins, a more UU (rather than OU) mindset, and a game plan also. My most recent team was: Luxray, Swellow, Nidoking, Aggron, Scyther and Lapras.

Luxray was a poke of my own invention, born mostly from a desire to set a pace to the start of the game similar to how Gyara would. Lux of course is not gyarados, but I found did a great job of scouting in the opening game with the threat of offenses from both sides, and great amount of bulk and disabling ability with intimidate, paralysis and light screen.

Swellow and Scyther are great switches too and from Lux, and continue the offensive pace, scouting with U-Turn. Nidoking does most of the big hitting in early-mid, as almost nothing can switch in safely. It's basically my infernape/tyranitar. Aggron and Lapras are bulky sweepers who can both continue the pace and make crucial switch ins. This team has been working very well for me, and I win the majority of my battles (you can read it at work in the warstory I wrote, though Astro outplayed me there).

Of all these though, only Luxray was a truly unique set up. In my last battle with Astro though, I noticed I got mostly screwed by the sets he made which were odd-ball-- ScarfMoth and SupportRelicanth. Also Luxray has been by and far the most powerful asset to my team for a long while. This got me to thinking-- standards may dominate OU, but every UU player is cleanly aware that UU has far more threats and viable pokemon, and yet I still feel that it centers around far more pokemon than it should, probably mostly in part to a lack of experimentation by players, and the simple human inability to digest all the options available. That said, maybe we should try more?

With fall of wish hypno, I've been thinking of adding more special punch to my offensive game, and decided to do my own research instead of using standard sets. I was surprised at some of my findings:

For instance, did you know edit: sunflora has the strongest Leaf Storm in UU? Also, that the only commonly seen walls who resist leaf storm are its fellow grass types, and altaria, who are all weak to HP ice.

Did you know that Flareon has the 2nd most powerful Overheat next to camerupt?

I understand that this is the same thing that goes on everywhere in pokemon-- we can go on and on and list all the amazing things this or that BL can do, but are no where near bringing them up to OU. In the case of UU though, the "overlooked pokemon" seem to be comparatively, a lot stronger than BL pokes are to OU. I can't help but wonder how a pokemon built to fight ninetale's flamethower will like taking Overheat from a pokemon with 15 more base sp. ATK points (flareon).

Discuss?
 
The problem is that most people try to play UU the same way they play OU.
That happens because the players want to play OU, but with different Pokémon.
Another thing is, everyone wants to win. That's why we see everybody using Gengar, Blissey and Garchomp. In UU, not everyone wants to test and innovate. Most people want to win, so they use what others have proved to work: Primeape, Scyther, Pinsir, Hitmonlee, Blastoise, Meganium, Manectric, etc..
But yes, we should test more. That, or wait for Obi to make a team with an UU Pokémon to ease things up.
 
That, or wait for Obi to make a team with an UU Pokémon to ease things up.
xD

Remember, we're people, and people have a nasty habit for overlooking things or prejudging others, and smogon does that a lot. Yes, everyone on smogon, and if you want to make it fair, everyone not on smogon too. People are also lazy--I will fully admit that.

You also have to factor in that UU is a "just-born" metagame and people haven't gotton bored of using Pokémon X or Pokémon Y, except for maybe Jibaku. When we get bored of the same Pokémon (and some of us get bored faster than others--I'm already exploring NU and Little Cup. Screw standard) we'll try different ones that we think suck -- Seviper, Flareon and Castform, and find out that they don't suck, they're actually really good (or fun to use x3) and start using them. But until that point, it probably won't happen, unless a bunch of people read this post and say "good idea!".
 
For instance, did you know Cacturn has the strongest Leaf Storm in UU?

You mean Sunflora, right? Cacturne doesn't learn leafstorm ...

That said, maybe we should try more?


We should, and a few of us do, or perhaps that should be did, however the larger majority won't/don't, (and wouldn't/didn't), which is unfortunate.

I wish you luck in promoting this ... perhaps with there being comparitively more interest in UU now your efforts will be more succesful.
 
I wish you luck in promoting this ... perhaps with there being comparitively more interest in UU now your efforts will be more succesful.

If you wish him luck and you should actually do something, 'cause wishing does absolutely nothing.

I suggest making a team consisting of one of those Pokémon and prove to someone that it works, maybe post a warstory on it. I would myself, but my computer would probably selfdestruct if I tried to down shoddy.
 
For instance, did you know Cacturn has the strongest Leaf Storm in UU?
Thats actually wrong. The most powerful Leaf Storm in UU (In the entire game as well) belongs to Sunflora. It has a 105 special attack but Solar Power gives 1.5x special attack boost so Leaf Storm is hitting for almost 2x power. It means even resistant pokemon take neutral damage from Sunflora's Leaf Storm. Second most powerful is Tropius due to Solar Power again.

However Shiftry also has the right to boast one of the most powerful Leaf Storms in the game too. Nasty Plot + White Herb allows Shiftry to fire off upto two 612 s.atk Leaf Storms but unlike Sunflora isn't slow as a rock.

In the example of Flareon/Ninetales, I doubt many would care since something like Mantine from UU can even wall Heatran and Moltres of all things in OU effortlessly. If its a Rain Dance variation they're both screwed actually since switching out lets Mantine get off a free RD and attack since it'll be faster than anything not named Deoxys-S or Electrode.

A few more fun oddities worth mentioning.
  • Some of the most powerful special walls in the game all exist in UU. This is because Blissey does the job so damn well in OU theres no real room so people discount others. Muk, Mantine, Noctowl, Shuckle, Cradily and Lapras are actually among the bulkiest things in the entire game but still offer their own niche's.
  • All of the top 3 strongest special water Pokemon in the whole game are all UU's. Gorebyss, Omastar and Clamperl have the highest special attacks of any water type in the game. (Discounting Kyogre and Palkia)
  • Lanturn, a UU is the only thing that can resist Boltbeam and water attacks.
  • Relicanth's Head Smash is actually just as powerful as a Rampardos Stone Edge. Except Relicanth has twice the defenses of Rampardos and a second STAB.
  • There are actually 3 Pokemon in the game with no weaknesses. Sableye, Spiritomb and Mr.Mime with Filter. Except Mime has Baton Pass and the support movepool from hell to justify itself.
 
Originally Posted by Fat Acredula
If you wish him luck and you should actually do something, 'cause wishing does absolutely nothing.

I suggest making a team consisting of one of those Pokémon and prove to someone that it works, maybe post a warstory on it. I would myself, but my computer would probably selfdestruct if I tried to down shoddy.

I suggest using the search function, for threads started by ODDish.

You will find a selection of warstories highlighting the capabilties the of some of UU's lesser known denizens.

I stopped because I got tired of baning my head against a brick wall, and seeing the same old same old, hence my reason for wishing Chou luck.
 
In my UU experience, ODDish is one of the few "creative" UU players that I can think of. Otherwise it's a world of the typical Swellow, Scyther, etc. that I see every other match (Pinsir was on that list before being banned). Admittedly I don't try too hard to be creative, but I have used some pretty obscure UU Pokemon (like Wish Kangaskan, Seaking, Camerupt, etc.).

I don't see any particular harm in using standard UU Pokemon. People complain about it, saying things like "treating it like OU" and such, but the truth is that people will use what is effective, and there's no point in complaining about that. If it's so terrible YOU use the creative Pokemon and you can have all sorts of fun with them. Smogon is a competitive site, and winning is the goal rather than having fun by using "creative" Pokemon.
 
  • There are actually 3 Pokemon in the game with no weaknesses. Sableye, Spiritomb and Mr.Mime with Filter. Except Mime has Baton Pass and the support movepool from hell to justify itself.

Filter: Whenever a move is used on this Pokémon that is super effective, the damage is decreased by 1/4.

Not exactly "no weakness".
 
Could've sworn it was 1/2, either way its still good enough consdering its single typed and most of its moves are defensive.
 
I love UU but it does feel like I'm often battling the same pokemon over and over. Meganium, a Hitmon, Poliwrath, Froslass, Scyther, Swellow and Altaria seem to dominate.

That's why I made my new team purely for fun taking pokemon that are hardly standards but are fun to use. While I only had one match with them so far, they worked pretty well together.
 
I suggest using the search function, for threads started by ODDish.

You will find a selection of warstories highlighting the capabilties the of some of UU's lesser known denizens.

I stopped because I got tired of baning my head against a brick wall, and seeing the same old same old, hence my reason for wishing Chou luck.
xD, I was being sarcastic.

Seriously, why don't we plan out a battle to make for a warstory? We'll use those overlooked UU Pokémon and show their triumphs over OUs and BLs and other UUs.
 
Planned "warstory-able" battles rarely work. Warstory battles are something that you have to find after they are done, not something that you hunt out to look for.
 
I agree with umbarsc. Smogon is a competitive site and people are going to try and win, after all, you can have as much fun with unique pokemon, but if you can win with standard UUs, why not use them? Atleast we will be seeing less of Hypno now that Wish is banned, so you may actually see some of the pokes you are talking about since they won't be walled by him.
 
In my opinion, magcargo is underrated as a physical wall.

It has mediocre stats, but with the right ability, it can shine against any flying type enemy. It resists fire 4x, ice, flying, normal and bug. This makes it a great counter to swellow, dodrio and scyther especially. The last two have a 30% chance of being burned on the switch in. Also, once magcargo has entered play, it can wil-o-wisp or lava plume to punish switch ins, like blastoise, nidoking, and others. Hidden power rock is handy too, you can hit lapras for 30.77% - 36.20% of it's health on the switch in. The slug now has access to recover, so it can tank hits several times.

Venemoth/mothim can be devestating to teams becuase it hits the most common special tanks with stab, super effective damage. Mothim can run an endure/salac set to get extra damage due to swarm.


My first UU team includes:

LEAD: banette with focus sash. shadow claw/trick room/wil-o-wisp/sucker punch

octillery with surf/ice beam/flamethrower/energy ball

magcargo with lava plume/stealth rock/recover/ancient power

aggron with choice band iron-tail/stone edge/focus punch/earthquake

claydol with HEAT ROCK. sunny day/trick room/earthquake/explosion

sunflora with miricle seed energy ball/leaf storm/hidden power/endeavor



I also have a second team with banette/magcargo/omastar/drifblim/hitmontop/vileplume

and one with masquerain/huntail/carnivine/lumineon/whiscash/mothim


I'd say those are pretty creative.



In my opinion, the most deadly thing in UU is nidoking and magnetric, mostly because I got rid of gastrodon because it isn't as effective in UU as it is in ...other tiers, because of grass types and hidden power grass.
 
I agree. UU allows a lot more gimmicky sets/pokemon to be viable, because everyone uses the same small pool of pokemon. Ninetales, Hypno, Meganium, Steelix, Poliwrath, Scyther, Swellow, Nidoking... it's so boring.

When someone uses something different, it can really mess you up. For example, I made up a Crunch/Surf/HP Grass/Ice Beam set a while back, but I never got around to using it. This guy whips out Crawdaunt, and I'm thinking, here comes a Crunch/Waterfall so I go to Omastar, only to get OHKOed.

In OU gimmick sets don't really work, because someone will always do it better (special Gyarados is stupid because Starmie is superior) but if you use the better pokemon, it's no longer a surprise.
 
Chatot is overlooked a lot, and it's actully quite good with the Encore/Nasty Plot set. If you max its base 91 speed it outruns a lot of UU, and you get ample opportunities to set up... Steelix Earthquake, Claydol EQ/Earth Power, Cacturne Sucker Punch, Shadow Ball from whatever, etc etc etc...

Encore is just such an awesome move, I even use this thing in OU to make CMcune cry.

STAB Hyper Voice with a Nasty Plot is strong enough to OHKO a lot of non-walls, while Chatter handles ghosts decently or Hidden Power Fighting takes Rocks and Steels, as well as Exploud. Your choice.
 
As for my part, I love playing UU because though the Pokemon are kinda the same ( Swellow, Nidoking mostly), it is more "creative" than OU where Chomp is rly in nearly every team. UU just offers more Pokemon.

But there is still the problem of finding UU players.. I really cant find any.
I guess if ppl would even try playing UU, they would think that its much fun.
 
I've been using a pretty nifty Special Attacking set developed in the Creative Moveset thread... I know Phuquoph tailored the EVs for the set, but anyways here is the special attacker I've used for a while in my (small amount of) UU Battles:

Altaria @ Life Orb
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest nature (+SpA, -Atk) / Quiet nature (+SpA, -Spe)
- Draco Meteor
- Psych Up
- Flamethrower / Earthquake
- Roost

Not much to say about the set except that Psych Up after a Draco Meteor gets you back to regular stats. It's also great to switch in on a Calm Minder, which are pretty common in UU. If I decide to run EQ, I'll switch to Quiet and move the Speed EVs into one of my defenses.

What is great about this set is that Altaria is one of the scariest set up physical sweepers in UU, drawing out some common physical walls who then get crushed by Draco Meteor. Altaria is very bulky and can stick around for a while, even moreso with Roost.

And I agree, Chou, there are a lot of different things that can be done to be successful in UU that have been ignored in the past. I hope this will open up some eyes.
 
Should we UU players have a "I play UU. Do you?" on our signatures? lol.

Anyway, some sets I've used with great success are Stockpile-passing Mawile [making my Bulky Sweepers even more bulky!] and SubPunching Mixed Cacturne [Dark Pulse/FP/Sub/Energy Ball, catches everything off-guard, especially after a Sub].

I have been trying the Mini-Manaphy set for Phione with some quite positive results, too. I even swept an OU team with it, after getting some Stockpiles.
 
I would agree that ODDish is probably the most skilled and creative UU player I've seen.

I only play UU, and from what I've experienced, UUs have no problem taking down OU Pokemon.

Lanturn, for example, is one of the most annoying sponges in UU and can be effective in OU. Unless they are carrying Earthquake, common leads such as Infernape and Gyarados have a hard time dealing with it. Infernape's only move counter would be Grass Knot, which only has a base 20 (or 40) power against Lanturn, making it essentially useless. Gyarados can't taunt Lanturn like most walls, because a thunderbolt isn't something it wants to encourage.

I'm not saying UU Pokemon such as the aformentioned Lanturn will make their way into OU, but I think people need to break out of the tiers and find new ways to exploit commonly used OU Pokemon.
 
Not much to say about the set except that Psych Up after a Draco Meteor gets you back to regular stats.

Psych Up only copies the changes in the opponents stats so I would assume it does not return your own decreased stats to normal.
 
Psych Up only copies the changes in the opponents stats so I would assume it does not return your own decreased stats to normal.

It does return your stats back to normal. It just copies the opponent's current stat stages. For instance, if their Special Attack stage is at 0, then Altaria can Psych Up and copy that.
 
I've been using a pretty nifty Special Attacking set developed in the Creative Moveset thread... I know Phuquoph tailored the EVs for the set, but anyways here is the special attacker I've used for a while in my (small amount of) UU Battles:

Altaria @ Life Orb
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest nature (+SpA, -Atk) / Quiet nature (+SpA, -Spe)
- Draco Meteor
- Psych Up
- Flamethrower / Earthquake
- Roost

Not much to say about the set except that Psych Up after a Draco Meteor gets you back to regular stats. It's also great to switch in on a Calm Minder, which are pretty common in UU. If I decide to run EQ, I'll switch to Quiet and move the Speed EVs into one of my defenses.

What is great about this set is that Altaria is one of the scariest set up physical sweepers in UU, drawing out some common physical walls who then get crushed by Draco Meteor. Altaria is very bulky and can stick around for a while, even moreso with Roost.

And I agree, Chou, there are a lot of different things that can be done to be successful in UU that have been ignored in the past. I hope this will open up some eyes.

Cool, someone is actually using my set.
 
This Altaria is rather slow, common calm minders will be still faster and one step ahead of you. Also wasting a turn just to Psych Up and get back to your original stats is meh. Rather have Toxic there to screw with walls and stuff.
 
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