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UU Suspect Test Round 2 Voter Identification and Suspect Nominations

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LonelyNess

LonelyNess

Makin' PK Love
is a Community Contributoris a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Alright guys it's time to nominate suspects / claim your alts.

Ln's screeny was terrible and a bit premature, there were no changes but here's the updated one for 3am EST

2u8ktc5.jpg

Please identify any alts above 1350 on this list. Those of you who have a rating of 1400 are eligible to vote without having to write sentences (2-3) on the suspects. Those of you between 1350 - 1400 will be allowed to vote, given that your sentences on the suspects prove that you're definitely qualified. Example. For clarification: don't send these in until after the suspects are announced. Tyia (thank you in advance)

Those who did not qualify for voting based on rating may also submit a special voter's application to me and JabbaTheGriffin if they wish to attempt to vote. These will not be given out like candy. I would like to note for this round, however, we will be more lax if missing the reqs was caused by some weird combination of the server downtime and decay. If you had the reqs within a day of the server downtime but dropped down afterwards, you'll likely be able to vote.

All applicants must answer the following questions.

1. What was your highest ranked account, and what was its rating on Saturday, July 2nd at 12:00 am EST?

2. Why do you believe you should be given voting rights, even though you did not meet the requirements?
Click to expand...
All voters accepted through special applications will be required to send in the "1350 sentences." You should work on these now, on the off chance that your application is accepted, so as not to delay the voting process.

This Thread will also serve for the Suspect Nominations.

Guidelines for Nominations

  1. We are allowing people to nominate abilities for a ban vote. If you nominate an ability, keep in mind that it will be banned on all Pokemon who get it. If a Pokemon only has one ability and that ability gets banned, said Pokemon will also effectively be banned (at least, until its secondary ability is released in Dream World).
  2. You may not nominate an ability + Pokemon combo, OR an item + Pokemon combo.
  3. You are not required to cater your nomination to any of the three 4th gen characteristics of an Uber/BL. All we are looking for in these nominations are sound logic and nomination popularity.
  4. There is no minimum length per nomination; if you get your thoughts across, and you show good reasoning, that's all we need to see.

This is not a debate thread. I do not want to see a single post that does not contain an identification and/or a suspect nomination.

This stage will last approximately 4 days, ending July 5th at 11:59 pm EST. Happy nominating!
 
Hi, my name's kaonohiokala and I submitted a special voter's application today. :jump:


Gorebyss, Huntail, and Smeargle: In place of current complex ban suspect Shell Smash + Baton Pass. Put simply, we'll back away from a complex ban, and consider each individual Pokemon capable of doing that combo for BL. I believe complex bans are uncalled for, and in general unhealthy for any of Smogon's tiers. The complex ban argument has been made many times, and it would seem that the general consensus is that most prefer no complex bans to complex bans. In this generation, tiers should be made up of Pokemon and Abilities, not Move+Move complex bans.

Chansey: FUCK CHANSEY. Put simply, this metagame lacks the raw physical firepower of the OU metagame. This allows Chansey to come in with its monstrous defenses and stall out everything and anything. People often use it as a PHYSICAL wall, walling various attacks, such as CB Flygon's Outrage, LO Mamoswine's Earthquake, and various other attacks. It's capable of supporting the team efficiently with Toxic or T-Wave support, SR support, cleric support, and Wish support. Its walling potential is becoming more and more obvious the longer this metagame goes on for.

Espeon: The source of Baton Pass' mana. Magic Bounce makes Espeon a bit too powerful for its own good. It can easily pull off any role for a baton pass team: dual-screener, CM passer, wish passer, and sweeper. With the big uprising of Baton Pass this round, Espeon has come out on top to be the star of the show. Magic Bounce means that common things that beat Baton Pass no longer work, such as phazing and taunting. With Espeon on the field, stopping Baton Pass becomes much more difficult.

Deoxys-D: Free Spikes, sponge, taunt, etc. Behind Chansey, the next leading defensive Pokemon is one that was an Uber last gen, Deoxys-D. With BW UU looking similar to DP OU, we get a real taste of what Deoxys-D is actually capable of. Thanks to its unbelievable defenses, it walls everything that doesn't have boosted super-effective attacks. On top of this, it also possesses a decent speed stat as well as the ever-useful Taunt. With all of this, Deoxys easily comes in on the majority of the metagame and can do whatever the hell it wants. More often than not, this means free spikes and chip damage, and he can easily come out unscathed thanks to his recovery move, Recover.

Wobbufett: Free kills and free set-ups are just ridiculous. Like many others say, Wobb is the anti-Pokemon Pokemon. Quite simply, you can't counter it due to its ability (with minor exceptions such as Shed Shell and Baton Pass). With Wobb on the opposing team, Choice attackers that can't pull off a 2HKO on Wobb easily get trapped and killed. Slow Pokemon that get outspeed by Wobb are also easily shut down. And lastly, anything that can't deal decent damage against it is killed easily. Tickle Wobb+Pursuit/Dugtrio is also becoming more common in the current meta, and we all know how dangerous that is.

I also support Abomasnow and Froslass nominations.
 
Just to clarify, the following Pokemon are automatically Suspects, so there is no need to write nominations for them.

Victini
Staraptor
Mew
Shell Smash + Baton Pass (if there is overwhelming support among the qualified voters this can be changed)
 
Identifying as SubReversal and PalindromemordnilaP.

I would like to nominate

Chansey: Chansey is excessively difficult to kill when it is holding Eviolite. Even the strongest physical attackers in UU can't 2HKO it with non-Fighting attacks, as suggested by the fact that it takes 35.8% - 42.2% from a max Attack Rhyperior Earthquake. This means that practically, Chansey can just switch in and out with impunity, inflicting status on and stalling out large portions of enemy teams. To make matters worse, Eviolite and the nerf of Beat Up mean that most of the traditional means of beating Chansey no longer work (such as Adamant CB Dugtrio). The only truly reliable means of eliminating Chansey is Tickle Wobbuffet, and this strategy is in itself powerful enough to be Suspect-worthy.

Snow Warning: Hail teams in UU are overwhelmingly powerful. Much of this is related to the exceptional difficulty of killing Froslass and Walrein in Hail before they stall out the opposing team, but the matter is complicated by the fact that making Blizzard 100% accurate also gives Hail teams a decided offensive advantage, one that Abomasnow itself uses quite well. Given that a typical Hail team looks like Abomasnow/Nidoqueen/Slowking/Walrein/Froslass/complementary Pokemon, Hail team tend to have monstrous defensive advantages, while "BlizzSpam" ensures that they put far more offensive pressure on an offensive team than an ordinary stall team does.

Wobbuffet: Wobbuffet with Tickle, Encore, Mirror Coat and Counter wipes out virtually automatically any defensive Pokemon that is slower. It also wipes out virtually any Choiced Pokemon not attacking with a strong, STAB Bug, Ghost or Dark move. These two characteristics taken together allow Wobbuffet to create excessively great opportunities to sweep the opponent's team, opportunities the opponent can do virtually nothing to prevent. Wobbuffet utterly disrupts the offense/defense balance of UU in favor of offense.
If it receives enough support to merit real consideration, I would like to nominate Baton Pass, the move itself. Baton Pass chains are extremely difficult to stop, but the offense/defense balance of UU is already so fragile that the number of Pokemon that can totally disrupt the metagame with Baton Pass is quite substantial. Rather than banning all of the Baton Passers outright, especially an otherwise useful and balanced Pokemon like Espeon, I would rather ban Baton Pass itself.
However, if Baton Pass itself lacks support, as I expect it probably will, I would like to nominate:
Espeon: Aside from being hands-down the best Baton Pass receiver and finisher with Stored Power and Magic Bounce, Espeon is the factor that makes Baton Pass chains excessively difficult to break. Reflecting Taunt, Roar and Whirlwind greatly restricts the ways in which Baton Pass can be reliably stopped, and the threat of Stored Power and/or Grass Knot deters even most common Haze users.

Venomoth: I know, Venomoth gets no respect. However, QuiverPassing is nearly as dangerous as SmashPassing, and Venomoth does it better than any SmashPasser does (with the possible exception of Smeargle, see below). Tinted Lens helps Venomoth a lot in terms of bypassing four moveslot syndrome, allowing Venomoth to run a simple set of Quiver Dance/Sleep Powder/Bug Buzz/Baton Pass. Very few of the conventional means of stopping a Baton Pass work when Venomoth can use Sleep Powder from +1 speed. Even the most reliable tactic, a Sleep Talked Roar (as from Suicune) is a 50-50 proposition, considering the 75% accuracy of Sleep Powder and the 1/3 chance of Sleep Talk choosing Roar. Even without Espeon, there are a very strong selection of QuiverPass recipients, including Nidoking and several that have access to Psyshock and Stored Power (like Sigilyph, Cresselia, Victini...).

Smeargle: The strongest and best of the SmashPassers, Smeargle can stop attempts to keep it from SmashPassing with Sleep, even more reliably than Venomoth (because Spore > Sleep Powder).
 
Karenai Hana

I'm not interested in any suspect that isn't already on the list, but I'd like to express support for the repeal of Shell Smash + Baton Pass as a suspect. If the conditions require me to choose an alternate, I'd like the vote to be transferred to Espeon.
 
Confirming as Lira Ansem

I would like to nominate:

Chansey- with her amazing HP and Spdef, reliable recovery move, support status moves, and the ability natrural cure she makes easily hands down the best special wall in the game, compared to her evolved form blissey...of course this comes with the downisde of have an extremely low defense. But now that is patched up with the item evolite, allowing her to take physical hits just a lil bit below slowbro (a main physical wall of the game) she can now wall STRONG physical attackers such as rhyperior and mamoswine and still wall the majority of special attackers in the UU metagame with ease...not only from being a great wall, she is also one of the best support pokemon in the game with moves such as aromatherapy, wish(now thanks to the new mechanics it get buffed even more), stealth rock and many more...

Espeon- The main reason milotic and other random pokemon are running haze...espeon ability magic bounce changes the entire way we deal with baton pass/shellpass...the normal means of dealing with them would be taunt/roar/whirlwind..but thanks to espeon those moves are completely useless against Baton pass..Personally before banning the move baton pass, I'd like to see a metagame where espeon doesnt exist and people go back to the way they used to always deal with baton pass..as mentioned earlier, haze has had a major increase thanks to espeon because it is now the most reliable way to deal with the boost...LOL at haze quilfish and crobat

Wobbuffett- This shuts down the idea of competativeness in this game..Wobb limits the moves of choiced pokes, making them think twice before actually spamming there moves..Also Wobb makes stall almost inviable, thanks to tickle+dugtrio/pursuit poke...This strategy is beyond difficult to break, that your sometimes forced to run ridiculous, like a large amount of U-turn/volt switchers. This strategy takes down almost any wall wobb chooses and allows specific pokes to easily sweep a team with their counter or check FORCED to die...

Frosslass- Frosslass is the key in most hail teams with its ability to set up spikes...thanks to its ability snow cloak, it does this job really well with less skill, prediction, and a large increase in luck on frosslass's side..it makes it so that getting hit with an attack less than 90% accuracy relies on luck..Also thanks to its ghost+ice typing it is one of the best spin blockers, hitting both hitmontop and dohpan for massive damage with blizzard while both can only rely on attacks that will possibly end up missing frossslass
(Probably will nominate more later)
 
My special application (shown below) was accepted, so here are my nominations.

Here are my suspect nominations:

Espeon: Nothing really counters Baton Pass, thanks to Magic Mirror Espeon, who reflects phazing, Taunt, and can basically set up Calm Mind in the faces of those users. Other Baton Passers can Baton Pass to Espeon once a Taunt / phazing move is predicted, making it pretty much impossible to counter Baton Pass teams. Espeon is the main reason Baton Pass is broken, so I believe it has to go.

Snow Warning: Abomasnow sets up permanent hail, then powerful hail sweepers / supporters such as Mamoswine and Froslass can easily abuse Snow Cloak to great effect. Mamoswine (who can 2HKO almost everything in the metagame) can often avoid attacks aimed at it, and most Mamoswine checks can't afford a miss. Froslass abuses Snow Cloak even better. With a set of Blizzard | Spikes | Substitute | Thunder Wave, it is almost always guaranteed three layers of Spikes, a kill, and another para'd mon. I believe Hail has to go.



JabbaTheGriffin said:
ShinyAzelf said:
Hi LonelyNess and JabbaTheGriffin,

I hit a rating of 1355 on the day of June 30th, the day which we were originally supposed to vote on.


http://s1182.photobucket.com/albums/...0at22750PM.png


1. What was your highest ranked account, and what was its rating on Saturday, July 2nd at 12:00 am EST?

Around 1270ish.

2. Why do you believe you should be given voting rights, even though you did not meet the requirements?
I was going to ladder a bit to prevent decay, and instead went on a tilt, which is why I do not appear on your screenshot. I do have a lot of knowledge on the UU metagame, and did hit a rating of 1355 on the day which the vote was originally head on, (June 27th - June 30th), so I believe I should be able to vote.

Thank you,

ShinyAzelf
Click to expand...

alright, you're good
Click to expand...
 
jrrrrrrr here @1368

Nominating:

Espeon- aka the only reason why people think Baton Pass is broken. Magic Bounce is an awesome ability but it only crosses over into "broken" levels IMO when combined with a Baton Pass team and the move Stored Power. Baton Pass isn't broken without Espeon, and Espeon isn't broken without Baton Pass. Without the fear of status, phazing or Taunting this guy can be a pain to take down with even a small number of boosts.
 
Confirming as doodles.

Nominations:
Espeon - Espeon's ability to shut down about half of the strategies commonly used to stop Baton Pass makes Baton Pass ludicrously difficult to stop, basically forcing you to rely on the poorly distributed Haze or brute force to stop Baton Pass chains. As soon as some defense boosts get up, brute force goes out the window, which means that really a decent Baton Pass team that prepares for a few specific Hazers will be able to successfully accumulate boosts. With Stored Power + Grass Knot, Espeon has no trouble destroying anything that commonly runs Haze, meaning with a couple of boosts it can effectively shut that down, too.

Wobbuffet - Basically the ability to get free kills on walls with Tickle makes it too easy to just do that and then spam powerful sweepers once your opponent's defensive core is removed. Wobbuffet is also extremely good at killing your scarfers, so it pretty much removes both of the things that usually stand in the way of sweepers, and makes any balanced or defensive team style basically suck.
 
Jcpdragonx

Espeon
Hold Baton Pass teams together and makes them near unbreakable. All it needs is a few boosts and Assist Power which destroy almost everything. The best way to check BP is to use Haze which has poor distribution and takes up a valuable move on a Pokemons move slot. Dragon tail also has poor distribution among the top UU Pokemon and can't break through subs. Espeon needs to go.

Hail
Hail's only competition is sand which is uncommon and there are no real fantastic sand abusers in UU. Snow Cloak makes Mamoswine and Froslass hard to take down as they are top tier UU Pokemon already. Nidoqueen and Slowbro can absorb all of hails weaknesses which makes a hail team incredibly hard to take down. Abomasnow has an easy time keeping hail up and has very good Dual STAB moves.

Chansey
You can say the Chansey is the ultimate set up fodder, however it walls too many Pokemon which don't set up on it. It passes Wishes with ease and has many support options. No other Pokemon in UU comes close to Chansey's walling/supporting capabilities. +6 Suicune and Raikou with leftovers don't even 2hko Chansey which says a lot about how bulky Chansey is. She also walls many physical attackers which lack a strong/STAB fighting move or unboosted move.
 
Confirming as Jubilee, Morningside, and SheiBe.

Nominations:
Espeon: Rather than nominating every Shell Smash + Baton pass user (who aren't broken without Espeon) I think the more appropriate thing to do would be to ban Espeon which makes Baton Pass so broken. Taunt, Roar, and Whirlwind are all the most effective ways to stop Baton Pass chains, but with Espeon none of these are possible to do as they're all bounced right back. Once Espeon has a few boosts under its belt it hits incredibly hard with Stored Power, it doesn't even need +Special Attack boosts to OHKO some Pokemon with it if it has enough boosts elsewhere.
Wobbuffet: Shadow Tag + Tickle + Dugtrio / Pursuit user is a broken strategy in my opinion. Its to easy to come in and trap Pokemon like Chansey, Tickle, send in Pursuit user/Dugtrio and KO it. Wobbuffet makes it easy to remove the opponent's checks/counters to certain sweepers (like Raikou once Chansey is gone) and allows them to sweep through their opponent's team with much, much more ease..
 
blah.(no voting reqs, again. >.<)

Chansey-seriously? half the voters wanted it gone in the last round, and it was 1 vote away from a simple majority. Anyway, this shit needs to go, period. Extremely good defensive capabilities and you pretty much need Taunt/Close Combat just to shut it down...

Shell Smash-this is the thing that should get banned if there isn't much support for Baton Pass(although there is so...). Banning this thing will badly nerf Huntail and Gorebyss, as well as place a couple of nerfs on a bunch of horribly irrelevant Pokemon(Cloyster's OU, Crustle is a SR lead, the other users just plain suck, except maybe Omastar), while still keeping the option of Baton Pass open.
 
confirming as still shit. nominations coming soon


Chansey: With Eviolite it is able to wall just about ever special attacker, even at +6. Unboosted, non-stab, physical fighting attacks will rarely even 2HKO. To beat Chansey you have to make sure every single member on your team is able to 2HKO it (nearly impossible unless you you run 6 fighting types, Taunt it, or setup on it. If you give Chansey any free switch-ins it will status your team while passing 350 HP wishes around, enough to fully heal just about any Pokemon in the tier.

Espeon: Stored Power is insanely powerful after just a few boosts. Powerful enough to deter any Haze user from switching in, which is the only way to rid Espeon of its boosts. Dragon Tail works but it's a 60 BP, generally unSTABed attack with imperfect accuracy, that cannot get past a sub. An immunity to Roar, Whirlwind, and Taunt make it nearly impossible to stop it on a dedicated Baton Pass team.

Wobbuffet: Shadow Tag is just uncompetitive. It can pick off nearly any slow defensive pokemon as well as choice users. Walls and choice scarf users are what teams use to check threats, and Wobbuffet can remove them with ease, paving the way for an unhindered sweep for another pokemon. Even with team viewer, you're still helpless. If you don't wanna send in your Chansey to wall that Raikou, then the Raikou can just set up until you're forced too, and then in comes Wobbuffet.
 
Nominations:

Baton pass- Shell smash or not, this move pretty much took control of the entire suspect round. Baton pass chains are potentially unbreakable with Espeon to block phazing and Mew with iron defense, substitute and taunt to block dragon tail and haze. With no reliable way of stopping a baton pass chain, this move should simply be banned entirely from UU.
 
fatty! - will edit in explanations later.

Baton Pass - i'm not buying this 'espeon is the only problem' bs for one second. yes, espeon is an extremely important asset to bp teams, but it isn't the one and only issue. in fact, there are multiple other mons that utilize bp to it's fullest and can leave the opponent entirely helpless if utilized correctly. some of the mon's of which i'm referring to include mew (arguably the best overall baton passer), smeargle (most likely the toughest bper to stop), venomoth (quiver dance + sleep, nuff said), and gorebyss (has become the most well prepared for bper in my eyes, but is still just as gamebreaking). due to the sheer dominance and virtual unstoppability that all of these pokes share, i feel that the only way we can take care of the entire problem and make the metagame a lot more competitive and enjoyable is by banning the move baton pass itself.

Wobbuffet - for most of the round, i honestly thought i was going to abstain on wobbuffet. i played a couple of matches on the ladder and felt that it was really underwhelming and often didn't have the time of day to do much throughout the match. then i realized that i was just playing some really shitty wobb users. on the last couple days of the suspect period, i played a few more wobb's, and luckily this time the user was actually fairly skilled. this coupled with the fact that they were utilizing a fast wobb made my life a living hell. fast wobb is an absolute monster, as now not only does it take out your fast sweepers / choice users, but it easily takes out your slow, bulky mons as well, allowing a number of opposing sweepers to cut through an entire team like a hot knife through butter. wobb is just an overall pain in the ass to face and simply strips uu of the competitiveness that it deserves.
 
Confirming as Ninjoe.

Nominating:

Espeon: The sole reason Baton Pass teams are so overly difficult to beat. Without Espeon, a simple Roar is guaranteed to phaze out anything besides Mew (Taunt) and Cradily/Octillery (Not a problem). Also makes it impossible for your BP chain to be statused OR Taunted. Has to go.

Wobbuffet - Everyone else covered this already. Not gonna repeat it.

I would also like to propose that the Shell Smash + Baton Pass nomination be dropped, and then Espeon nominated in its place. Espeon is what pushes Baton Pass as a whole overboard, and without I don't think many people could truthfully say it would still be broken, even with Shell Smash. I don't agree with the SmashPass ban, so just checking if anyone else would support this.
 
Confirming as Lolcat.

Nominating a ban for Smeargle to replace Shell Smash +Baton Pass. Will edit reasoning later.

Okay, do we really need a complex ban again? It's common knowledge that if a Pokemon can run a broken set, then it is broken. No ifs, ands, or buts. Since abilities do not come into play here, the only thing that should be banned here is Pokemon, not move combos. Now that we've established that, we should ban whatever breaks this strategy and has the smallest effect on the metagame. I think if we ban Smeargle, the best of the SmashPassers, we'll have solver this dilemma. Huntail and Gorebyss need to set up Smashes and switch out, and while the Huntail or Gorebyss is Smashing it's open to attack, but since Smeargle has Spore it can just Smash, outspeed, and Pass. Huntail and Gorebyss can be KOed or pHazed before they can pass, especially if the opponent runs a strong priority move. If this does not receive support then I would like to add Huntail and Gorebyss as suspects or Espeon if it would save SmashPass. Banning Baton Pass is ludicrous unless it was broken on every Pokemon that got the move, which it obviously is not. Also, fuck complex bans let's just ban broken shit.
 
The guy who created the Starwave software.

Nominations: (Chansey copied from before)

Chansey: She can effortlessly wall most of the metagame thanks to evolite. The ease at which she can wall special attackers is ridiculous and even physical attackers have trouble taking her down. That incredible bulk also allows her to easily support the rest of the team with Wishes/Heal Bell/etc. Natural cure makes her pseudo immune to status, meaning toxic/sleep/burn won't less cripple her walling ability as she can easily switch out. She's almost impossible to take down with the right team support and when used correctly.

Hail: Hail just gives too much teamssupport and pushes several pokemon over the edge. Pokemon like Walrein and Froslass are very difficult to take down with their abilities and when you throw Toxic Spikes and residual damage into the equation things get even nastier. Ice-type sweepers can spam 100% accurate Blizzards a.k.a blizzspam. (a viable strategy)

Oh and i'd like change my Shell Smash + Baton Pass nomination to just Baton Pass as a whole.
 
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