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Project UU Victim of the Week (Round Twenty Four: Rhyperior)

The Winners are:
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173106

Estarossa and Sickist
Estarossa uses the great fire bird Moltres while Sickist continues to outlast with Mega Slowbro.
Checks:
Moltres=4
Tentacruel=2
Salazzle=0

Counters:
Mega Slowbro=6
Quagsire=4
Jellicent=2
Doublade=1
Chandelure=0

Round 17's Victim is:
Starmie
starmie.gif

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Psyshock / Thunderbolt
- Rapid Spin / Thunderbolt

Starmie is our next victim and is a fast offenisve spinner. Its coverage combined with Analytic allows it to punish most switch-ins and it serves as a decent revenge kill option against Infernape and Terrakion. Submissions are of course due by Thursday.​
 
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Muk-Alola @ Assault Vest
Ability: Poison Touch
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fire Punch
- Pursuit
- Gunk Shot
- Knock Off

Muk makes for a fantastic hard check to offensive starmie, since it has no fear of scald burns and successfully pursuit traps it.

Unlike other pursuit trappers such as krookodile or aerodactyl, it does nothave to fear hydro pumps from starmie in 50/50 situations, and can much more safely swap in on starmie, especially with its immunity to psyshock if running it.

As the calcs below show, it can be 3hkoed swapping in on an analytic hydro pump, followed by 2 normal hydro pumps wiht starmie staying in, thus making it a very hard check instead of a counter. (while in all likelihood it's likely that you will swap in on another move or a hydro pump will miss, this is still a possibility).

252+ Atk Muk-Alola Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 144-170 (55.1 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (staying in)
252+ Atk Muk-Alola Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 284-336 (108.8 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (on swap)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 103-122 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 7.4% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 134-160 (38 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (analytic)
 
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gastrodon.gif

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Scald
- Recover
- Toxic
- Earthquake

Gastrodon's typing, ability, as well as access to recovery, makes Gastrodon one of the best checks to Starmie. It can stomach 5 Ice beams, as well as 4 analytic ones. However, Gastrodon folds to Psyshock in general, making it a check instead of a counter.​
 
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reserving blissey

Blissey.png
Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Bell

Blissey is a good check to Starmie because it tanks everything which Starmie can go for as the HP and the high special bulk allows Blissey to withstand any move successfully.
Because Starmie is Analytic and not Natural Cure, Blissey is able to Toxic stall Starmie out or just whittles it down with the Toxic and Starmie gets worn down easily during the game.
However Blissey has to be careful about a analytic boosted Psyshok from Starmie on the switch and Blissey is forcded to use Soft Boiled then, but Blissey is in overall a nice specielly defensive check to Starmie.

Calcs:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 149-177 (20.8 - 24.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 82-97 (11.4 - 13.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0- Atk Life Orb Starmie Rapid Spin vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 25-30 (3.5 - 4.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 257-304 (35.9 - 42.5%) -- 94% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 82-97 (11.4 - 13.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Analytic Boosted:

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 195-230 (27.3 - 32.2%) -- 51.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 107-126 (14.9 - 17.6%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 333-394 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 107-126 (14.9 - 17.6%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery


Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Starmie: 100-100 (38.3 - 38.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 
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1556570611471.png
Manectric-Mega @ Manectite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hidden Power Ice
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower
- Volt Switch

speedy dog zap zap star go poof​
 
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kyurem.gif

Kyurem @ Leftovers
Timid Nature
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
- Ice Beam
- Substitute
- Earth Power
- Roost​

Kyurem literally doesn't care about anything Starmie does other than Psyshock which isn't very common on offensive starmie sets. Nonetheless I'll still take it into account. Starmie tends to carry BoltBeam coverage to power through most things, however Kyurem is one of the few dragons that isn't weak to ice. It had access to Roost to keep checking said Mon and can even 2OHKO it with Earth Power most of the time after rocks, garuanteed with all the LO chip. The only really instance where you have to be careful is with a analytic boost Psyshock as it has a chance to 2OHKO assuming they get a high role. Labelling it as a hard check based on these calcs and the coverage it usually runs.
200 SpA Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 108-128 (41.3 - 49%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 105-125 (25.9 - 30.8%) -- 5.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 117-138 (28.8 - 34%) -- 99.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 156-185 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Analytic Boosted:

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 200-238 (49.3 - 58.7%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 156-185 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery (Chance to be 2OHKO'd after taking a max role analytic boosted Psyshock)

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 156-185 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Never 2OHKO'd if you take a middle ground damage role meaning you can Roost it back.
 
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Krookodile @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge

Ofc you don’t switch in directly (Scarf Krook never does unless its MMane) but you trap Starmie, and if you don’t trap it, you’re probably removing something’s item / scouting for Z-Crystals. Check
 
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Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Toxic
Seismitoad is a strong check to Starmie, taking at least 2 hits from most of it's movepool, and 2HKOing it with Earthquake due to it's own Life Orb. It's immunity to Hydro Pump and Thunderbolt also makes it easy to fish for switchins to Starmie.
0 Atk Seismitoad Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 118-141 (45.2 - 54%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO Toad vs Starmie
Starmie Hydro Pump vs. Water Absorb Seismitoad: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 134-159 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 2.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 122-146 (29.4 - 35.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Starmie Thunderbolt vs. Seismitoad: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time

Analytic can get in the way of some of these calcs but you'll find that a trend with nearly every Starmie switchin anywho. There's barely any genuine counters to 4 attacks Starmie. If you play your Seismitoad smart, you can usually beat it.
 
sceptile-mega.gif


Outspeeds and smacks Starmie with Leaf Storm, and if it accidentaly clicks Thunderbolt, free boost. (make sure to get it in through a pivot/sack, cuz hydro pump can 2hko, but with Giga Drain,you get back to full). EZ check

myeh(Sceptile-mega) @ Sceptilite
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power Fire
 
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Nothing much I care to add this week as Starmie is just an annoying Pokemon to handle which is why it is understandable there is a lack of counters being submitted. I myself can only think of two, one has been submitted which I think should be listed as a counter.

blissey.png

Blissey should be considered a counter simply because Starmie isn't ever breaking through it without outside help or hax. Even if it takes a sizeable amount from an analytic boosted Psyshock you don't get OHKOd the next turn by another. If you factor in leftovers that is even less of a chance. You just simply soft-boiled on the turn you come in and you are back where you started except the Starmie user takes 2 turns of LO recoil. Everything else should just be self explanatory about this match-up, but yeah this should be a counter imo.
​
Anyways that is all I will add to this discussion, I'll be voting for Muk cos you just come in whether you hard switch or get a free turn and don't fail to trap it. Then a second check will probs be Mega Manectric as it can generate momentum with Volt Switch unlike the other submissions. Interested to see what you guys have to say as always ^_^
 
I like Twilights hard check in Kyurem because it can switch into any attack as none of the attacks are super effective anyway and it can just Roost of the damage it took upon switchin, even tho it has to be a bit careful around a max roll from analytic boosted Psyshock but regardless of all things its a really good hard check.

Mega-Sceptile is faster than Starmie but it cant switch safely into Starmie as the Starmie suer can predict right and can go for an Ice Beam, but Mega-Sceptiles special attack makes up for a good check as it is able to smack Starmie. Just be careful around Ice Beam.

Krookodile is fantastic check as it can switch into a thunderbolt or maybe psyshock and can pursuit trap Starmie with a huge chunk of dmg as Starmie isnt known to be the bulkiest mon on the physical side anyway. Krookodile in general is a nice Suit-Trapper in UU.

I like all the submission here and I'm not sure for what to vote if it comes down to the voting stage. I think you guys did a great job :)

To my Blissey, ya i thought its moreso a (hard)check as i feared about an analytic boosted Psyshock but I think you're right with just Soft-Boiling the Blissey up. If it goes to the Counter section I dont mind since I can see that most Starmies don't run Psyshock that often. Thanks for poiting it out, Twilight!
 
Will definitely be voting blissey no matter whether it gets bumped up or not but other votes will entirely depend on where everything ends up falling probably.

173485
- Strong check to starmie, since the only attack it's 2hkoed by is the albeit rare psyshock, and it has water absorb for hydro pumps. Has no way to punish swaps like the pursuit trappers and voltturners in the checks department however, and water immunity will actually lower the life orb chip thats being caused to it too. Must waste turns healing up if it takes a psyshock too, and basically forces you to click recover against starmie incase it stays in and goes for 2 psyshocks.

173486
- A nice offensive check to starmie, but can't really swap in on any attacks bar a thunderbolt without taking huge damage. Unlike gastrodon can at least punish swaps with a volt switch however, but prediction is very dangerous here making your play fairly obvious.

173487
- Unless i'm missing something here, the max damage of an analytic psyshock into a psyshock from your calcs is 104.3% which means it never kills after leftovers if at full, so unless we're factoring in potential rocks here you could maybe bump that up to counter too since it has recovery. Nonetheless it's a nice answer to starmie, able to punish its swaps with a free sub. But on the other hand it doesn't really hurt starmie enough to stop it rapid spinning on you first if it wanted to, which is a bit annoying.

173488
- Ok check i guess, but has no way to punish swaps and can't swap into any of its attacks bar thunderbolt boosting ur spA and hydro pump either really, and even that hurts it when analytic boosted, 252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sceptile-Mega: 94-110 (33.4 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, with ice beam and psyshock both ohkoing when analytic boosted. Obviously free boost with tbolt is nice, but you take massive risks if you ever try to bait it.

173489
- Should 100% be a counter here, since it cant get 2hko'd even with analytic and softboiling on psyshocks just chips the starmie. Rocks set however would be a better counter here imo, since it's able to easily get rocks up and keep them up on starmie. Not much else to say on this one really.

173490
- Nice check to starmie, while it can't swap in like some other checks it's able to pursuit trap it easily. Due to being an offensive set not a defensive one its quite easy to force starmie into range of a non switch pursuit too thanks to life orb chip and no recover, which makes the 50/50's less scary too, and you can always just knock off before this and scout crystals / remove items. I do believe muk is the better option out of these two really though since it can actually swap in directly to trap unlike krook though.

173491
- (Edit: Didn't bother calcing ice beam when I wrote this, edited after what rose said.) Very nice check to starmie, unlike gastrodon it has stealth rocks going for it here, which starmie isn't going to be able to remove until later. On the other hand it doesn't have the longevity that gastrodon has, and without a way to directly punish starmie swapping this is going to have to try and stay healthy, which will probably mean risking trying to activate water absorb.
 
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Estarossa said:
Will definitely be voting blissey no matter whether it gets bumped up or not but other votes will entirely depend on where everything ends up falling probably.
View attachment 173488 - Ok check i guess, but has no way to punish swaps and can't swap into any of its attacks bar thunderbolt boosting ur spA and hydro pump either really, and even that hurts it when analytic boosted, 252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sceptile-Mega: 94-110 (33.4 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, with ice beam and psyshock both ohkoing when analytic boosted. Obviously free boost with tbolt is nice, but you take massive risks if you ever try to bait it.
Click to expand...
Giga Drain makes up for the potential 3HKO that Hydro Pump brings. Just saying.
 
Checks:

Alomuk: Probably the hardest check in the tier, you literally switch in once and Mie is gone. Definitely gonna be voting for this.

Gastrodon and Seis: Pressured by Analytic Shock but otherwise good. Seis gets up Rocks here notably, so thats pretty cool.

Mane and Scept: Ok offensive checks but not much else. Mane can Volt ig.

Kyurem: Can be a counter but i just like it as a check since EP doesn’t 2hko (in the case rocks arent up). This can take advantage of a switch with sub, which can lead to counterplay being limited.

Krook: Kinda like Mane where it can make an obvious play BUT it does have an option to do something else. This is probably the softest check since only it and Mane dont like Hydros (Scept recovers with Giga).

Counters:

Blissey: Imo this should be a counter and it’ll be my vote should it move into the category. Not only does it stomach attacks, but it sets Rocks at the same time (which should be on this imo), which is pretty neat. The only issue with this is that it can force Blissey in multiple times due to no Pursuit, giving aggressive players an advantage. This also works against them though, as LO chip can’t go away.

Final verdict is Alomuk and Seis as Checks and Blissey as Counter.
 
Estarossa said:
Will definitely be voting blissey no matter whether it gets bumped up or not but other votes will entirely depend on where everything ends up falling probably.

View attachment 173485- Strong check to starmie, since the only attack it's 2hkoed by is the albeit rare psyshock, and it has water absorb for hydro pumps. Has no way to punish swaps like the pursuit trappers and voltturners in the checks department however, and water immunity will actually lower the life orb chip thats being caused to it too. Must waste turns healing up if it takes a psyshock too, and basically forces you to click recover against starmie incase it stays in and goes for 2 psyshocks.

View attachment 173486- A nice offensive check to starmie, but can't really swap in on any attacks bar a thunderbolt without taking huge damage. Unlike gastrodon can at least punish swaps with a volt switch however, but prediction is very dangerous here making your play fairly obvious.

View attachment 173487 - Unless i'm missing something here, the max damage of an analytic psyshock into a psyshock from your calcs is 104.3% which means it never kills after leftovers if at full, so unless we're factoring in potential rocks here you could maybe bump that up to counter too since it has recovery. Nonetheless it's a nice answer to starmie, able to punish its swaps with a free sub. But on the other hand it doesn't really hurt starmie enough to stop it rapid spinning on you first if it wanted to, which is a bit annoying.

View attachment 173488 - Ok check i guess, but has no way to punish swaps and can't swap into any of its attacks bar thunderbolt boosting ur spA and hydro pump either really, and even that hurts it when analytic boosted, 252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sceptile-Mega: 94-110 (33.4 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, with ice beam and psyshock both ohkoing when analytic boosted. Obviously free boost with tbolt is nice, but you take massive risks if you ever try to bait it.

View attachment 173489- Should 100% be a counter here, since it cant get 2hko'd even with analytic and softboiling on psyshocks just chips the starmie. Rocks set however would be a better counter here imo, since it's able to easily get rocks up and keep them up on starmie. Not much else to say on this one really.

View attachment 173490- Nice check to starmie, while it can't swap in like some other checks it's able to pursuit trap it easily. Due to being an offensive set not a defensive one its quite easy to force starmie into range of a non switch pursuit too thanks to life orb chip and no recover, which makes the 50/50's less scary too, and you can always just knock off before this and scout crystals / remove items. I do believe muk is the better option out of these two really though since it can actually swap in directly to trap unlike krook though.

View attachment 173491- On the fence here of whether i agree with it being a hard check or if its actually a counter, since while it doesn't have proper recovery it does have water absorb and an immunity to 2 of its more common moves, and using the analytic calc, 252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 160-188 (38.6 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery, it always survives 1 analytic psyshock into the 2 psyshocks while it kills, and can fish for recovery on hydros easily.
Click to expand...
I'll just make one note that Ice Beam actually does more damage than psyshock if you look at my calcs. Swapping in on an ice beam into 2 more ice beams can actually kill before you fire off your second Earthquake, hence why I see it as more of a check, esp with no recovery either.
 
checks are under the situation that they have a free switch so it’s not like mane or scept need to tank anything

Muk should be counter 100%

The water immune mons seem like odd picks considering they aren’t very threatening to a switch in but at the same time don’t rly counter
 
Smallsmallrose said:
I'll just make one note that Ice Beam actually does more damage than psyshock if you look at my calcs. Swapping in on an ice beam into 2 more ice beams can actually kill before you fire off your second Earthquake, hence why I see it as more of a check, esp with no recovery either.
Click to expand...

Yea forgot to calc that one too, agree that it's definitely a check now then. sorry, edited my post.

Scizorphobic said:
checks are under the situation that they have a free switch so it’s not like mane or scept need to tank anything

Muk should be counter 100%

The water immune mons seem like odd picks considering they aren’t very threatening to a switch in but at the same time don’t rly counter
Click to expand...

While the first sentence may be true, naturally a hard check that is capable of trapping or doing it's job without needing a free switch is *typically* a better check as it provides more opportunities, so i don't see how it isn't worth taking into account that some of the checks can take hits and some can't, especially since being able to take some hits makes prediction far less risky too?

On the muk front, it has a good chance to be 3hkoed by analytic hydro into 2 hydros like seismitoad and ice beam, as shown in my original post, which means it doesn't satisfy the definition,

Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

since if muk manually swaps into a hydro, then starmie stays in on pursuit starmie will win assuming all hydros hit.

Datsplashtho said:
Giga Drain makes up for the potential 3HKO that Hydro Pump brings. Just saying.
Click to expand...

You kinda missed the point of what you've highlighted, which wasn't to suggest hydro is a 3hko, but that even hydro isn't a particularly safe swap, with that damage for example being more than enough to put you in range of a bp from banded scizor etc, even after a giga drain after.

ie. that trying to fish for lightning rod boosts is far too dangerous to be worth consideration most of the time when 2 analytic moves ohko, and another does a sizeable chunk of damage, especially with plenty of giga drain resists everywhere making it hard for you to really heal much of that back.
 
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Estarossa said:
You kinda missed the point of what you've highlighted, which wasn't to suggest hydro is a 3hko, but that even hydro isn't a particularly safe swap, with that damage for example being more than enough to put you in range of a bp from banded scizor etc, even after a giga drain after.

ie. that trying to fish for lightning rod boosts is far too dangerous to be worth consideration most of the time when 2 analytic moves ohko, and another does a sizeable chunk of damage, especially with plenty of giga drain resists everywhere making it hard for you to really heal much of that back.
Click to expand...
oopsie daisy
 
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