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Venusaur (QC 0/3)

Small nitpick but you've got the natures mixed up on the first set. Relaxed should be slashed second since the only physical attack (EQ) is also slashed second.
 
jc104 said:
OK, changed the set to that. I think you are exaggerating when you say giga drain can't be dropped; clearly a number of us have had at least some success without giga drain. I'll try my best to summarize the discussion we've had here in the comments, that venusaur really has a lot of options and is probably going to have to sacrifice coverage against something (mainly ferrothorn, in the case of the given set), but it's best that the main set looks simple.
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Yeah I'll have to agree here: I use Giga Drain yet I feel like I'm Sludge Bombing everything all the damn time since it is just so safe to spam. Venusaur I feel never really needed Giga Drain for the threats it walled since Sludge Bomb still fared fine, and Sludge Bomb is more effective at limiting offensive switch-ins. It's not like Giga Drain helped too much against Poison switch-ins since Sludge Bomb's poison chance can make up for the resistance while Steels laugh at Giga Drain anyway. Giga Drain isn't particularly essential for Waters: it just made things easier, particularly when burns are involved. Giga Drain's main use over Venusaur's other attacks is its effectiveness at wiping out Ground-types, but since Venusaur doesn't resist Ground it could be better handled by teammates anyway.

Conclusion, Giga Drain is a luxury. It is still useful, but it can still be slashed alongside other attacks, unlike Sludge Bomb. Giga Drain is still probably worthy enough to deserve first slash in any case.
 
Beating Manaphy is not a luxury. Most teams struggle to find a check to this thing, and Mega Venu is one of the few ones. Not only this, but being able to deal significant damage to one of the best pivots in the game (Rotom-W) instead of letting it Pain Split in your face is also not a luxury and an absolutely essential thing to have if Mega Venu is your way of dealing with Rotom-W.
 
Beating Manaphy and Rotom-W cleanly is notable, I just don't think it's so groundbreaking that Giga drain should be considered essential. Manaphy is one offensive threat in a metagame that contains many, and some teams may put more value on:

1) The ability to beat steel types with Earthquake/hp fire
2) Not being a free switch-in for things like Latios, Talonflame etc by sludge bombing them
3) The ability to spam leech seed

Also worth noting that Venusaur can often wear down Rotom-W without Giga Drain, and specially defensive Venusaur isn't completely useless against Manaphy, it takes 60-70% from a +6 Ice beam assuming max Special attack, leftovers Manaphy, which allows it to hit Manaphy twice with sludge bomb, putting it in range for just about anything faster to finish it off, or beating it with some prior damage. Not a reliable stop, but viable if your team has something else to deal with it.

Fwiw I started off by running Giga drain/Sludge bomb/synthesis/leech seed on Venusaur and have played around with just about every moveset suggested here. My opinion on Giga Drain is simply because I usually find it to be the move I miss the least *shrug*
 
Quick question, while using a sun team, would it be a good idea to put growth onto a MegaVenasaur? I feel like it's at least worth mentioning.
 
Minor nitpick:

Not sure if they need to be mentioned in Checks and Counters, but Pressure users (Kyurem, Zapdos, etc.) can be extremely detrimental to Mega Venusaur, as they can easily deplete the PP of Synthesis. Even something with a bad matchup towards Mega Venusaur (such as Suicune) can easily switch in on a predicted Synthesis and take away Mega Venusaur's recovery options that much faster.

Dudeman514 said:
Quick question, while using a sun team, would it be a good idea to put growth onto a MegaVenasaur? I feel like it's at least worth mentioning.
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I personally wouldn't, but Mega Venusaur shouldn't be used on a sun team in the first place (sun teams want Mega Charizard Y for sunlight, and regular Venusaur for Chlorophyll sweeping.)
 
I didn't think pressure affected synthesis. However, Venusaur does have quite bad PP issues with its attacks too. I find myself running out of giga drains and even sludge bombs quite often. Suicune can pretty much set up in the face of any venusaur without leech seed, but I don't really think this is worth mentioning in checks and counters. Zapdos is too prone to being poisoned to be a good check. Kyurem is pretty much totally outclassed by Kyu-b, which counters venusaur better too. Altogether, then, I don't think pressure is worth mentioning. It's probably easier to PP stall venusaur without it.

Using mega venusaur on a sun team was actually already mentioned in OO, but it barely belongs there. Weather ball is pretty nice, but even with the extra bulk this does not make up for the loss of speed and item. And Mega Char-Y is of course a good choice for a sun team, but it's clearly not sufficient for sunlight, and I can see that people might have an issue with stacking fire types, particularly 4x SR weak ones.
 
Pressure does not affect Synthesis, it only affects moves used to target the Pressure Pokemon (Sludge Bomb, Leech Seed, Sleep powder, etc.).

Also, I don't see any mention of Skarmory as one of the best Mega Venusaur responses out there, being much better than Ferrothorn. While susceptible to Sleep Powder, Skarmory can Roost and more importantly strike back with STAB Brave Bird, putting much more pressure on Venusaur's Synthesis PP than Ferro can; Skarm can even Taunt if it wants to stop status or healing. Of course, Skarm can set up hazards on Venusaur like Ferro can, only Skarm can actually force Venusaur out with Whirlwind or threaten with Brave Bird.
 
I disagree that skarm is a better answer than ferrothorn, but that was nonetheless a significant oversight. Skarm will be mentioned.
 
Gengar is the only common OU Poison-type that resists Mega Venusaur's STABs while not being weak to Hidden Power Fire. Black Sludge variants can avoid a 3HKO from HP Fire, while Life Orb variants keep Mega Venusaur on its toes (Giga Drain helps to even things out though). Either way, Pain Split easily throws a wrench into any Synthesis stalling plans, so Gengar can definitely pose problems to any Mega Venusaur without Knock Off.
 
hi.

I've been using Chlorosaur a lot recently, and I think this is the best set


name: All Out Chlorophyll Attacker
move 1: Leaf Storm / Solarbeam
move 2: Sludge Bomb
move 3: Hidden Power [Fire] / Earthquake
move 4: Sleep Powder
ability: Chlorophyll
item: Life Orb
evs: 24 HP / 252 SpA / 232 Spe
nature: Modest / Rash

- Growth is kinda bad, there just isnt enough sun turns to work with to get it going
- Setting your own sun is also kinda bad because you just end up being a shitty agility attacker, Cholorosaur is most dangerous with no need to set up and max coverage. Not to mention venusaur gives zero shits about Tyranitar, Politoed, Abomasnow, and Hippowdon switching into it to disrupt its sun considering you have a move to destroy each of these pokes.
- Heat Rock is a waste when youre the best chlorophyll user in the game
- Leaf Storm is gr8 and reliable to use outside the sun as venusaur is used as an anti water type pokemon on sun teams, so sun might not always be . -2 isnt a HUGE issue when youre going to get forced out due to lack of sun pretty quickly anyways
- Solarbeam is more accurate and only slightly weaker than Leafstorm with no power drop, but, sun must be up for it to do a damn thing and you can never use it on T-tar, one of Sun's greatest enemy's
- Sludge Bomb is a great STAB move
- HP fire with a sun boost is better for killing steelies and other grass types (hello ferrothorn!), but EArthquake slams Heatran of course
- Sleep powder is great because it lets you get away from and get a free switch into stuff you cant beat like Gengar, Heatran and Chandelure *-*
- Not really a sweeper more of an 'all out attacker' so I changed the name but w/e
 
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I can't help but feel that there just has to be a better EV spread out there for this thing. While Mega Venusaur can certainly run a mixed defensive spread, I've never been a big fan of spreading out EV investment arbitrarily just for the sake of having good mixed bulk. I personally think we should try to find some sort of defensive benchmark, even if just a vague one. I've personally been a bigger fan of physically defensive sets lately, so one suggestion I have is a 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 SpD Bold spread. 232 Def EVs hit the last jump point in Defense, while the 28 SpD EVs give it slightly more special bulk. Specifically, it decreases the chance of being 2HKOed by LO Greninja's Ice Beam after Stealth Rock to a mere 3.5%, as opposed to 12.9% for a 252/4 Mega Venusaur.

There might be a better spread out there, maybe one with a special bias or different benchmarks, but I think this is a step in the right direction. As you admitted in the Set Details of the first set, EVing a Pokemon just for the sake of having equal defenses has no solid competitive value, so I recommend we find an EV spread with more purpose to it.

EDIT: Come to think of it, you could just forget the Def jump point and run a 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 SpD Bold spread. This will ensure that LO Greninja can never 2HKO after Stealth Rock without Extrasensory, which makes Mega Venusaur a more solid answer to it.
 
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While I'm sure that there is a better spread for venusaur than the one I have down currently, bearing in mind that it was just plucked out of the air, I don't think looking for very specific benchmarks is the way to find it either. It's essentially impossible to know what the true "best spread" is because this game is far too complicated. By all means, we should consider whether we want a physical or special bias, and we should possibly consider jump points, but not benchmarks such as that one. The game is complicated enough that the distribution of amounts of damage venusaur will be taking can be seen as continuous, especially bearing in mind the damage variation on each move.

I'll add a mention of 16 speed evs. The targets are relatively rare, but outrunning them is important when they do appear.

And thanks ash borer for the advice regarding the chloro set. Since I have only tested it briefly, I think I will just take your word for it for now.
 
They weren't necessarily plucked out of the air, were they? To my recollection, the given EV's were to survive a +3 non-LO Psychic from Manaphy and +2 Flash Cannon from Mega Lucario, both after Stealth Rock (but I guess you could argue that those threats were picked out of the air). Also, Defense was slightly higher than Sp. Def to avoid the Atk boost on Genesect (credit goes to Super Mario Bro for that specific spread). Considering Mega Luke's and Genesect's recent banishment and the rarity of Psychic on Manaphy, there is probably a more efficient spread.

Also, what are people's opinion of Earthquake vs. Leech Seed now that Mega Lucario is gone? I know that Heatran was the main target of Earthquake, but it was still a slight factor.
 
jc104 said:
While I'm sure that there is a better spread for venusaur than the one I have down currently, bearing in mind that it was just plucked out of the air, I don't think looking for very specific benchmarks is the way to find it either. It's essentially impossible to know what the true "best spread" is because this game is far too complicated. By all means, we should consider whether we want a physical or special bias, and we should possibly consider jump points, but not benchmarks such as that one. The game is complicated enough that the distribution of amounts of damage venusaur will be taking can be seen as continuous, especially bearing in mind the damage variation on each move.
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I disagree. I think that specific benchmarks such as this are exactly what we need to keep in mind because they translate into real-life scenarios. Let's just say, for argument's sake, we decide that a physically defensive bias is the best for Mega Venusaur. You still want to have enough special bulk to handle some of the special threats that teams often rely on Mega Venusaur to handle. I picked Greninja here because it's a pretty common offensive threat, and many teams often rely on Mega Venusaur as their first line of defense against it. That said, being able to always escape a 2HKO from non-Extrasensory Greninja after Stealth Rock (a very common field condition) is a valuable trait. Sure, Mega Venusaur won't always be at full health, but it's not unusual at all for it to take some damage over the course of the match, heal back up to full health via Synthesis/Leech Seed/Giga Drain, switch out, and then have to switch in to take on Greninja, possibly with Stealth Rock down. Not only that, but this specific benchmark doesn't take much investment to achieve. The second spread in my last post requires only 44 Def EVs to be moved to SpD in order to survive the aforementioned 2HKO, which gives Mega Venusaur the ability to safely take on a common special threat even with Stealth Rock down while keeping its physical bulk mostly intact.

These sorts of specific damage benchmarks are very common in our analyses for a reason. If you look through many of the analyses in this sub-forum with very specific EV spreads (not just your average 252/252/4 spread), you'll probably see a comment like, "The given defensive EVs allow Pokemon A to escape a XHKO from Pokemon B," or, "The given offensive EVs allow Pokemon A to always XHKO Pokemon B." We pick these specific benchmarks because they give the spread a purpose that plays out in actual matches. It certainly won't always play out perfectly (many of these spreads rely on the Pokemon being at full health or switching into Stealth Rock with no prior damage), but they still do happen, and this gives the Pokemon in question insurance against the threats it's designed to check. Now, I'm not saying that the spread I posted is the single best one. Maybe non-Extrasensory Greninja isn't an important enough target to sacrifice physical bulk for. Heck, maybe a physically defensive bias isn't the best. However, I honestly believe that specific defensive benchmarks should be used so that we can design a Mega Venusaur spread that's capable of tanking what it needs to from one side of the offensive spectrum while still focusing most of its EVs on the other side.

If we aren't going for a specific benchmark, then I think it'd be best to just focus entirely on either a physically or specially defensive spread. I've found that splitting EVs without a specific purpose sometimes makes it harder for Mega Venusaur to wall opponents because it's trying to handle too much at once. Essentially, when you try too hard to wall everything, you find it more difficult to wall anything.
 
Apologies to SMB. I forgot that I had replaced my spread (which really was plucked out of the air) with his (that wasn't).

The purpose for benchmarks such as those is more illustrative than it is practical. I mean, you can never be 100% sure of avoiding a 2HKO from greninja's ice beam, because it has a ~12% chance to get a crit and an even higher chance to freeze. It's not like you're reducing a 50% chance to a 0% chance, or even a 3% chance to a 0% chance. You're reducing a 31% to a 28% chance (roughly). And this is just in the instance that a full health venusaur switches into a max special attack timid LO Greninja Ice Beam.

The fact that every other analysis does it does not make it right. In most cases it is tolerable, because I don't usually have any better ideas, and thus I consider any random spread that doesn't waste evs to be fine. And as I said, an illustration of bulk is nice too. So, as a result, I might be willing to accept your spread, simply based on the physical/special bias, provided you can persuade me that a mostly physical bias is appropriate. Myself, I really think that venusaur is one of the few pokemon genuinely bulky enough to pull off a fully mixed spread. The spread as we have it now gives roughly equal defenses, which is a helpful guide in battles, and still hits one benchmark (manaphy) although sadly another benchmark, and the genesect download thing are now obsolete. So I'll probably find the nearest jump point and stick with that, for now.

edit: and if you are looking for benchmarks, setup sweepers are the ones to look for. They're more significant because the sweeper threatens to kill the rest of your team if your first line of defense goes down. It's actually worth making sure that venusaur remains at 100% to deal with a threatening setup sweeper.
 
I see your point about hax. I prefer to look at it this way: you can't stop hax. No matter how much defensive investment you use, raw luck still has a habit of screwing you over at the most inopportune times. However, you can minimize the risk of being KOed by a given attack under normal circumstances, given the attack's own natural damage variation. Whether you think this is worth it is ultimately up to you as the analysis writer and the QC team, though.

But hey, on the bright side, if you ever do lose the matchup because of hax, you now have an excuse to throw a fit and call the opponent "talentless trash." :)

The physical bias is more of a personal preference I've had for the bulk of XY (pun intended), and I believe CrashinBoomBang expressed a similar preference in a recent Smog interview. I might explain my preference in more detail when I get home and don't have to type on my phone, but the bias is ultimately up to QC. At the moment, I would like to recommend that you move 4 EVs from HP to Def. This does two things: first, it hits a Def jump point, which you seem to be looking for at the moment. Second, it makes Mega Venusaur's HP not divisible by 4, so in the event you have to switch into full Spikes coverage, you take one less point of damage (which is useful given Mega Venusaur's lack of Leftovers). It's not a huge change, but it'll make the spread slightly more efficient.

EDIT: Just to clarify, the old HP/SpD EVs were designed specifically to always avoid +2 Mega Lucario's Flash Cannon after Stealth Rock. Moving 4 EVs from either HP or SpD to Def in order to hit that jump point would have also put Mega Venusaur at a slight risk of being OHKOed by the aforementioned attack, which is probably why Super Mario Bro didn't go for that jump point in the original spread. Now that Mega Lucario has been banned, you can safely hit that jump point while still having enough special bulk to take non-Life Orb Manaphy's +3 Psychic from full health, another purpose of Super Mario Bro's spread.
 
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All right, so the new strategy dex is going up very soon and there are several Pokemon, including this one, that do not currently have completed analyses. jc104, if you could please try to make this look presentable within the next day, that would be helpful. Please contact user darkie once you've made it look presentable (by that I mean "acceptable to be on-site") and refer to and update this pirate pad: https://www.piratepad.ca/p/dex_skeletons

This needs to be done by tomorrow afternoon (GMT -6), so make sure you get it done! If you can't make it look presentable in the next day, please say so in the pirate pad so someone else can make a quick skeleton of it. Thanks!
 
I definitely can't do any work on this until wednesday at the earliest. If someone else has to do all or part of it, then so be it.
 
I touched upon this idea in an IRC chat with Jukain today, but perhaps Venusaur should have two separate defensive sets. Maximum Defense investment allows Venusaur to have a better matchup against physical powerhouses like Azumarill, Excadrill and Mawile, while maximizing Venusaur's EVs in Special Defense helps it defeat Manaphy, Special Aegislash, Offensive Heatran, and even Charizard-Y (as long as it doesn't switch directly into Fire Blast).
 
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Sup jc104

Thanks for implementing chlorosaur. QC has been discussing and we'd like the analysis to have three sets. 1. Physically Defensive 2. Specially Defensive 3. Chlorosaur

Offensive mega can go unless you feel strongly about it. The move slashing on the defensive set looks OK, but it might be subject to some change. I think some QC believe HP fire is a lot better than EQ or something, but just keep it as for now. What's important is detailing what either sdef or phys def wall and team options/usage tips based on that.

It looks like most QC members are agreeing htat

- Synthesis
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- HP Fire / Sleep Powder / Leech Seed

Knock Off, Roar, EQ go in moves.

is the way to go
 
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