Pokémon Vivillon

[danaw167]

I don't know if Noivern can outspeed it after two boosts, but a scarfed one would be pretty scary on the switch in. I like Draining kiss because of it's neutral hits, plus the offsetting the heal has on LO and FS

...you know that Draining Kiss has 50 BP, right? It won't do appreciable damage at all (and, by extension, won't heal for much of anything) unless you hit things super-effectively with it. And even then, it'll hit for less than Hurricane in almost any instance.

Hold on, here is a full list of type combinations that take more damage from Draining Kiss than from Hurricane:

- Rock/Dark (does not exist)
- Rock/Dragon (does not exist)
- Rock/Electric (does not exist; but if it did, you'd still be screwed since Draining Kiss doesn't hit this type combo super-effectively, so you should have run Energy Ball instead)
- Electric/Dark (does not exist)
- Electric/Dragon (Zekrom, which is an Uber and therefore irrelevant)
- Dark/Dragon (Hydregion)

With Life Orb:

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Vivillon Draining Kiss vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 364-432 (111.6 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Vivillon Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 298-351 (91.4 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

With Focus Sash:

+2 252 SpA Vivillon Draining Kiss vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 372-440 (114.1 - 134.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 306-360 (93.8 - 110.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

So, you're running a move that does unimpressive damage (and heals for a similarly unimpressive amount) against pretty much everything, except for one relatively uncommon Pokemon that Vivillion can beat just as well with Hurricane and Stealth Rock support anyways. I'd rather use that moveslot for a move that has more utility than that, such as Substitute or an actual coverage move (such as, say, Dazzling Gleam, which only requires one boost to guarantee the OHKO on Hydregion on non-Life Orb sets, and actually hits hard enough to threaten other Pokemon).

 

[eesang]

Rock/Dark = Tyranitar
Rock/Dragon = Tyrantrum

I can see Draining Kiss be useful if you're running Life Orb or Focus Sash.

I still really wish Viv could learn Focus Blast.

 

[Martin]

I've personally been wreaked by a Vivillon (it sweeped half my team at +2) and judging by my experience this thing isn't going to be NU. It is definitely going to be in RU or BL3 as that power is just overwhealming in NU with a 91% accurate Hurricane, a 97.5% accurate Sleep Powder and the ability to OHKO or 2HKO almost all things that can absorb sleep powder at a mere +1 is just going to be too much for the NU tier to handle and it will lead to forcing people to run specialised counters/checks for it like Mega Kangaskhan did before it was banned such as - for Mega Kangaskhan - Rocky Helmet Skarmory and Ferrothorn and - for Vivillon - Coba Berry Tropius with Harvest, Tanga Berry Exeggutor with Harvest, specially defensive Cradilly and Steel-types holding Safety Goggles.

One of the reasons why Smogon ban Pokemon to the Uber, Bl, Bl2 and Bl3 Tiers is as follows:

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

OR

Capable of sweeping standard in common battle conditions with one turn of set up or less.

These would apply to Vivillon in the NU tier and, seeing as they do not aply to Vivillon in the other tiers, it is going to be in at least Bl3.

Please note that I may be wrong about this and, as such, it is open to discussion. For discussion on this could you use the hashtag #vivillonspower and quote this message so people can see what sub-topic within a topic you are talking about.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

...you know that Draining Kiss has 50 BP, right? It won't do appreciable damage at all (and, by extension, won't heal for much of anything) unless you hit things super-effectively with it. And even then, it'll hit for less than Hurricane in almost any instance.

Hold on, here is a full list of type combinations that take more damage from Draining Kiss than from Hurricane:

- Rock/Dark (does not exist)
- Rock/Dragon (does not exist)
- Rock/Electric (does not exist; but if it did, you'd still be screwed since Draining Kiss doesn't hit this type combo super-effectively, so you should have run Energy Ball instead)
- Electric/Dark (does not exist)
- Electric/Dragon (Zekrom, which is an Uber and therefore irrelevant)
- Dark/Dragon (Hydregion)

With Life Orb:

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Vivillon Draining Kiss vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 364-432 (111.6 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Vivillon Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 298-351 (91.4 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

With Focus Sash:

+2 252 SpA Vivillon Draining Kiss vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 372-440 (114.1 - 134.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 306-360 (93.8 - 110.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

So, you're running a move that does unimpressive damage (and heals for a similarly unimpressive amount) against pretty much everything, except for one relatively uncommon Pokemon that Vivillion can beat just as well with Hurricane and Stealth Rock support anyways. I'd rather use that moveslot for a move that has more utility than that, such as Substitute or an actual coverage move (such as, say, Dazzling Gleam, which only requires one boost to guarantee the OHKO on Hydregion on non-Life Orb sets, and actually hits hard enough to threaten other Pokemon).

Draining Kiss actually heals for just as much as Drain Punch or Giga Drain.

 

[Antonius the Great]

Yes it heals 75% of damage dealt instead of 50%, making it recover just as much as other draining moves, it just deals less damage.

What does the consensus say the best move set is for this little butterfly? QD, Bug Buzz, Hurricane, and Sleep Powder? Or would a coverage move be better for the last move slot? Hurricane and Bug Buzz don't hit through a lot, both resisted by Steel and Rock, so this thing could see some problems with Excadrill and TTar, so would HP Fighting be a viable move choice? (Sorry if this was brought up already, I didn't see it)

Also... #666 in the national dex.

EDIT: By viable I meant to ask if anyone had any success with HP Fighting, my bad..

 

[Schpoonman]

Rock doesn't resist Bug.

 

[adman2]

PSA:

DO NOT USE VIVILLON IN SKY BATTLES. IT IS NOT A WAY TO SMUGGLE IN VOLCARONA!

That said, it could do decently elsewhere where fewer things might resist Bug/Flying. I don't play standard OU all that much (more Sky, Monotype and Inverse Battles), so take THAT bit of advice with a grain of salt.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Yes it heals 75% of damage dealt instead of 50%, making it recover just as much as other draining moves, it just deals less damage.

What does the consensus say the best move set is for this little butterfly? QD, Bug Buzz, Hurricane, and Sleep Powder? Or would a coverage move be better for the last move slot? Hurricane and Bug Buzz don't hit through a lot, both resisted by Steel and Rock, so this thing could see some problems with Excadrill and TTar, so would HP Fighting be a viable move choice? (Sorry if this was brought up already, I didn't see it)

Also... #666 in the national dex.

EDIT: By viable I meant to ask if anyone had any success with HP Fighting, my bad..

Ok so I made vivillion my pet project in OU and it is performing very well, there are obvious drawbacks but the fact is if you get up a quiver dance, you are about to deal some damage,

I am very confused as to the topics of these conversations because they seem pointless especially about vivs having healing moves or lefties. I mean I dont think viv has lived a hit yet, but I use focus sash.

I tried some different hidden power moves like fighting. fire, fairy, but I always value bug buzz and hurricane more. So to answer your question the best move set for this monster is QD,Bug Buzz, Sleep Powder, and hurricane.

Everybody in this thread is trying to make this poke more than it is, it is going to be a serious threat no matter what tier its in but the only viable sets IMHO are focus sash and LO sets.

 

[danaw167]

Rock/Dark = Tyranitar
Rock/Dragon = Tyrantrum

I can see Draining Kiss be useful if you're running Life Orb or Focus Sash.

I still really wish Viv could learn Focus Blast.

Whoops, my bad. However...

+2 252 SpA Vivillon Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 114-136 (28.2 - 33.6%) -- 97.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Tyranitar still laughs at it.

+2 252 SpA Vivillon Draining Kiss vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyrantrum: 260-308 (84.9 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Wanna gamble with that? Because I sure as hell don't. Why not use Dazzling Gleam instead?

+1 252 SpA Vivillon Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyrantrum: 312-368 (101.9 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As for using it with Focus Sash and to mitigate Life Orb recoil... other Pokemon make draining moves work by virtue of bulk, which is something that Vivillion distinctly lacks (80/50/50 defenses). If you aren't KOing things with it, you aren't going places (there's a reason Focus Sash is used to let it set up in the first place, remember?), and Draining Kiss isn't really KOing things. Vivillion really only has one "free" moveslot, so why use it on a move with such limited usefulness when you could be adding coverage to help it sweep better? If you're running Life Orb + Draining Kiss, then you're neutering the sweeping capabilities that you tried to boost by running Life Orb in the first place. Besides, it's not like taking 10% HP recoil heralds the end of the world.

Draining Kiss actually heals for just as much as Drain Punch or Giga Drain.

I know that (note that I specified that the low damage is the reason it heals for an unimpressive amount). It's still a weak move on a frail Pokemon that wants to set up and KO things, not sit about and take hits.

 

[aVocado]

lots of text about why viv isn't gonna be NU

um, you're arguing for a tier and a metagame that does not exist yet.

 

[Aoda]

...you know that Draining Kiss has 50 BP, right? It won't do appreciable damage at all (and, by extension, won't heal for much of anything) unless you hit things super-effectively with it. And even then, it'll hit for less than Hurricane in almost any instance.

Hold on, here is a full list of type combinations that take more damage from Draining Kiss than from Hurricane:

- Rock/Dark (does not exist)
- Rock/Dragon (does not exist)
- Rock/Electric (does not exist; but if it did, you'd still be screwed since Draining Kiss doesn't hit this type combo super-effectively, so you should have run Energy Ball instead)
- Electric/Dark (does not exist)
- Electric/Dragon (Zekrom, which is an Uber and therefore irrelevant)
- Dark/Dragon (Hydregion)

With Life Orb:

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Vivillon Draining Kiss vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 364-432 (111.6 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Vivillon Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 298-351 (91.4 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

With Focus Sash:

+2 252 SpA Vivillon Draining Kiss vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 372-440 (114.1 - 134.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 306-360 (93.8 - 110.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

So, you're running a move that does unimpressive damage (and heals for a similarly unimpressive amount) against pretty much everything, except for one relatively uncommon Pokemon that Vivillion can beat just as well with Hurricane and Stealth Rock support anyways. I'd rather use that moveslot for a move that has more utility than that, such as Substitute or an actual coverage move (such as, say, Dazzling Gleam, which only requires one boost to guarantee the OHKO on Hydregion on non-Life Orb sets, and actually hits hard enough to threaten other Pokemon).

The only reason I don't mind the abysmall bp, is because of the boosts you do. Also, according to Serebii:http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-xy/dazzlinggleam.shtml Vivilion does not dazzling gleam, so stop talking about it.

I would prefer hp ground or fight as a coverage move, grass doesn't seem that impressive to me, coverage wise.

 

[Piccolo289]

The only reason I don't mind the abysmall bp, is because of the boosts you do. Also, according to Serebii:http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-xy/dazzlinggleam.shtml Vivilion does not dazzling gleam, so stop talking about it.

I would prefer hp ground or fight as a coverage move, grass doesn't seem that impressive to me, coverage wise.

You also have Energy ball or (hopefully) giga drain making hp grass irrelevant.

 

[danaw167]

The only reason I don't mind the abysmall bp, is because of the boosts you do. Also, according to Serebii:http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-xy/dazzlinggleam.shtml Vivilion does not dazzling gleam, so stop talking about it.

I would prefer hp ground or fight as a coverage move, grass doesn't seem that impressive to me, coverage wise.

Wait, it doesn't? Then dafuq were all those calcs on the last page - oh, now I see. That'll teach me to take any posted calcs at face value.

Still, that's only one Pokemon...which you just listed better coverage options for. And it doesn't nullify anything else that I said. Also, how many boosts do you usually get? Because my calcs show it to be an underwhelming option even with a reasonable amount of boosts.

 

[tango1075]

So what nature and spread is being used for a sweeper viv? Compound eyes with Hurricane, Sleep powder, Quiver Dance, and Powder?

 

[AOPSUser]

So what nature and spread is being used for a sweeper viv? Compound eyes with Hurricane, Sleep powder, Quiver Dance, and Powder?

lol Powder. Don't use Powder. You shouldn't set up on anything with a Fire-type move, and if you have to, you should make sure you at least outspeed and can sleep it. Hurricane, Sleep Powder, Quiver Dance, and either Substitute or Bug Buzz in that last slot.

 

[tango1075]

lol Powder. Don't use Powder. You shouldn't set up on anything with a Fire-type move, and if you have to, you should make sure you at least outspeed and can sleep it. Hurricane, Sleep Powder, Quiver Dance, and either Substitute or Bug Buzz in that last slot.

What about nature and evs?

 

[AOPSUser]

What about nature and evs?

Um...the standard 4/252/252? Unless there's a reason to run anything else, that's what you use on Vivillon.

 

[doughboy]

lol Powder. Don't use Powder. You shouldn't set up on anything with a Fire-type move, and if you have to, you should make sure you at least outspeed and can sleep it. Hurricane, Sleep Powder, Quiver Dance, and either Substitute or Bug Buzz in that last slot.

Can we just extend this idea and say just don't use Vivillon at all in OU?

I mean really, you are using a Pokemon that at most can use a 279 special attack stat (it will die to anything that outspeeds), relies on a terrible STAB combination that is resisted solidly by the #1 threat in the tier (Aegislash), and is 4x weak to Stealth Rock. As a special sweeper, Vivillon is outclassed. As a Quiver Dance user, Vivillon is outclassed. As a Quiver Dance user with Sleep Powder, Vivillon is outclassed.

Venomoth (M) @ Focus Sash
Trait: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Quiver Dance
- Sleep Powder
- Bug Buzz
- Baton Pass

Meet Venomoth, a surprisingly decent Pokemon in last generation's OU metagame. Venomoth has the distinction of one of three Pokemon able to Baton Pass Quiver Dance (Smeargle and Masquerain are the others) and is the best one to pull off the combo. Venomoth is the best because it is the fastest and the one with the most offensive presence in case it can't pass off its own boosts. Venomoth can pull off mono-coverage with Bug Buzz very well due to Tinted Lens. Tinted Lens allows you to hit Pokemon that 2x resist Tinted Lens neutrally and those that 4x resist Tinted Lens for 2x resist damage. Only Pokemon that possess a 4x resist on your moveset will be able to stop the damage thoroughly. Granted, some popular Pokemon resist this such as Aegislash, Skarmory, Charizard (normal/y), and Mawhile and Heatran, but these are the same Pokemon that resist Vivillion's moveset (note you have a heavy accuracy drop on Charizard Y with Hurricane).

Enough with that though. You got to get those Quiver Dance boosts to something with good coverage and good stats. Vivillion can't do that, but Venomoth can. Heatran is a good choice due to its power and its resistance to priority. Special Mega-Lucario is also another good choice.

The point is Venomoth offers the same amount of offensive presence as Vivillon, but with the awesome ability to pass off boosts to its teammates safely with Sleep Powder. It is also 2x weak to Stealth Rock instead of 4x weak like Vivillon. Don't use Vivillon. If you really want to, use Venomoth.

*Also note that Venomoth can speed tie the all so important Dexoys-D to Sleep Powder it. Vivillion is too pathetic and misses out by 2 speed points because it sucks.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Can we just extend this idea and say just don't use Vivillon at all in OU?

I mean really, you are using a Pokemon that at most can use a 279 special attack stat (it will die to anything that outspeeds), relies on a terrible STAB combination that is resisted solidly by the #1 threat in the tier (Aegislash), and is 4x weak to Stealth Rock. As a special sweeper, Vivillon is outclassed. As a Quiver Dance user, Vivillon is outclassed. As a Quiver Dance user with Sleep Powder, Vivillon is outclassed.

Venomoth (M) @ Focus Sash
Trait: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Quiver Dance
- Sleep Powder
- Bug Buzz
- Baton Pass

Meet Venomoth, a surprisingly decent Pokemon in last generation's OU metagame. Venomoth has the distinction of one of three Pokemon able to Baton Pass Quiver Dance (Smeargle and Masquerain are the others) and is the best one to pull off the combo. Venomoth is the best because it is the fastest and the one with the most offensive presence in case it can't pass off its own boosts. Venomoth can pull off mono-coverage with Bug Buzz very well due to Tinted Lens. Tinted Lens allows you to hit Pokemon that 2x resist Tinted Lens neutrally and those that 4x resist Tinted Lens for 2x resist damage. Only Pokemon that possess a 4x resist on your moveset will be able to stop the damage thoroughly. Granted, some popular Pokemon resist this such as Aegislash, Skarmory, Charizard (normal/y), and Mawhile and Heatran, but these are the same Pokemon that resist Vivillion's moveset (note you have a heavy accuracy drop on Charizard Y with Hurricane).

Enough with that though. You got to get those Quiver Dance boosts to something with good coverage and good stats. Vivillion can't do that, but Venomoth can. Heatran is a good choice due to its power and its resistance to priority. Special Mega-Lucario is also another good choice.

The point is Venomoth offers the same amount of offensive presence as Vivillon, but with the awesome ability to pass off boosts to its teammates safely with Sleep Powder. It is also 2x weak to Stealth Rock instead of 4x weak like Vivillon. Don't use Vivillon. If you really want to, use Venomoth.

*Also note that Venomoth can speed tie the all so important Dexoys-D to Sleep Powder it. Vivillion is too pathetic and misses out by 2 speed points because it sucks.

vivillion can sweep unprepared teams and venomoth cant, The baton pass set is irrelevant to be comparing to vivillion because it doesnt have baton pass...outclassing means it does the same thing but better, and at least with your example that is not the case. Dont get me wrong I understand vivillion has a lot of flaws but it is a glass cannon that can fire off very powerful and accurate hurricanes, that have a chance of confusion. Most moves that bring vivs to her sash also bring venomoth down to its sash, and the stealth rock weakness is irrelevant IMHO because even if it did 1% instead of 50% vivillion is dead because the sash is gone.

Obviously a MEGA-Lucario is a better special sweeper than this little bug but again this thread is talking about how to make vivillion viable and/or fun to use not point out how a the most op poke right now is better...btw saying aegislash is the #1 threat in the tier is completely your opinion, and most would agree its lucario which can be killed by a setup viv in one hurricane.

 

[Rennyjesus]

Can we just extend this idea and say just don't use Vivillon at all in OU?

I mean really, you are using a Pokemon that at most can use a 279 special attack stat (it will die to anything that outspeeds), relies on a terrible STAB combination that is resisted solidly by the #1 threat in the tier (Aegislash), and is 4x weak to Stealth Rock. As a special sweeper, Vivillon is outclassed. As a Quiver Dance user, Vivillon is outclassed. As a Quiver Dance user with Sleep Powder, Vivillon is outclassed.

Venomoth (M) @ Focus Sash
Trait: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Quiver Dance
- Sleep Powder
- Bug Buzz
- Baton Pass

Meet Venomoth, a surprisingly decent Pokemon in last generation's OU metagame. Venomoth has the distinction of one of three Pokemon able to Baton Pass Quiver Dance (Smeargle and Masquerain are the others) and is the best one to pull off the combo. Venomoth is the best because it is the fastest and the one with the most offensive presence in case it can't pass off its own boosts. Venomoth can pull off mono-coverage with Bug Buzz very well due to Tinted Lens. Tinted Lens allows you to hit Pokemon that 2x resist Tinted Lens neutrally and those that 4x resist Tinted Lens for 2x resist damage. Only Pokemon that possess a 4x resist on your moveset will be able to stop the damage thoroughly. Granted, some popular Pokemon resist this such as Aegislash, Skarmory, Charizard (normal/y), and Mawhile and Heatran, but these are the same Pokemon that resist Vivillion's moveset (note you have a heavy accuracy drop on Charizard Y with Hurricane).

Enough with that though. You got to get those Quiver Dance boosts to something with good coverage and good stats. Vivillion can't do that, but Venomoth can. Heatran is a good choice due to its power and its resistance to priority. Special Mega-Lucario is also another good choice.

The point is Venomoth offers the same amount of offensive presence as Vivillon, but with the awesome ability to pass off boosts to its teammates safely with Sleep Powder. It is also 2x weak to Stealth Rock instead of 4x weak like Vivillon. Don't use Vivillon. If you really want to, use Venomoth.

*Also note that Venomoth can speed tie the all so important Dexoys-D to Sleep Powder it. Vivillion is too pathetic and misses out by 2 speed points because it sucks.

Vivillon can't be outclassed when it does have a tool that Venomoth doesn't that is compundeyes and combined with Sleep Powder and Hurricane makes Vivillon a realiable sleep source that is at least bulkier and quicker than Smeargle and have some offensive presence (of course, isn't my precise intention to compare those two)...

And remember that Venomoth just speed ties with Deoxys D in that regard so isn't such a "reliable" thing to check Deoxys D...

 

[Jkickit]

Is Vivillon any good in OU?
Compound eyes Hurricane and Sleep Powder sounds gooood.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Is Vivillon any good in OU?
Compound eyes Hurricane and Sleep Powder sounds gooood.

If you look back to last page or two i posted a few good vivillion sweeps, so yes it is viable in OU but only on the lower end of the ladder. If you are just playing to try stuff out thenI say go for it but if you are serious about laddering then, no it isnt very good because any good player will just wreck it with priority.

 

[Adonzo]

vivillion can sweep unprepared teams and venomoth cant, The baton pass set is irrelevant to be comparing to vivillion because it doesnt have baton pass...outclassing means it does the same thing but better, and at least with your example that is not the case.

The Baton Pass set is VERY relevant, as it means that in one set, Venomoth can do the same thing as Vivillon AND MORE. Tinted Lens allows Venomoth to keep an offensive presence similar to Vivillon's Compoundeyes, as they will still be walled by the same things. But when he is walled, Venomoth can simply pass the boosts off.

EDIT: I agree that the SR weakness is irrelevant. Unless you're running Life Orb, neither has the bulk to really care about Rocks, as they die to a stiff breeze anyways. Vivillon's advantage is hitting harder with Hurricane and a more accurate Sleep Powder, Venomoth's advantage is Baton Pass, but those sets are in direct competition with each other.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

The Baton Pass set is VERY relevant, as it means that in one set, Venomoth can do the same thing as Vivillon AND MORE. Tinted Lens allows Venomoth to keep an offensive presence similar to Vivillon's Compoundeyes, as they will still be walled by the same things. But when he is walled, Venomoth can simply pass the boosts off.

EDIT: I agree that the SR weakness is irrelevant. Unless you're running Life Orb, neither has the bulk to really care about Rocks, as they die to a stiff breeze anyways. Vivillon's advantage is hitting harder with Hurricane and a more accurate Sleep Powder, Venomoth's advantage is Baton Pass, but those sets are in direct competition with each other.

I think you missed my point, or i didnt say it properly. I was mainly just saying that this is a vivillion thread where we talk about its viability and good sets, not a venomoth thread. But also that vivillion has the ability to have compound eyes and a focus sash so if lets say talonflame( one of the most common pokes) came in, venomoth would have to switch out and couldnt baton pass where vivillion could take the hit and OHKO with hurricane. But thats not really the point I just didnt like his post because it wasnt contributing to this thread, you dont go on a thread and say dont use this poke, you go on and say here is a viable set or something along those lines.

 

[doughboy]

I think you missed my point, or i didnt say it properly. I was mainly just saying that this is a vivillion thread where we talk about its viability and good sets, not a venomoth thread. But also that vivillion has the ability to have compound eyes and a focus sash so if lets say talonflame( one of the most common pokes) came in, venomoth would have to switch out and couldnt baton pass where vivillion could take the hit and OHKO with hurricane. But thats not really the point I just didnt like his post because it wasnt contributing to this thread, you dont go on a thread and say dont use this poke, you go on and say here is a viable set or something along those lines.

First if you didn't noticed in my post, Venomoth is also holding a Focus Sash so it can baton pass boosts to a better sweeper. Staying in on Talonflame with a Focus Sash is not exclusive to Vivillion. However, this is irrelevant to what I have to say about the bolded part of your post.
_____________________________________________________________

The purpose of these threads was to introduce the new generation 6 Pokemon and mechanics to us and discuss them. It is not to exclusively support the use or viability of certain Pokemon in the OU metagame.

Here is the deal: not all Pokemon are created equal. Game Freak isn't a master of game design to where they can balance out every Pokemon (essentially a character) in the game to be of equal power to each other. Now in Vivillion's case, it is just one of those Pokemon that does have a very small niche, but that niche is not enough compared to many other Pokemon out there in OU. It's just something that won't win you the majority of games because it is not strong enough in OU. You said it yourself you would only use it against "the lower end of the ladder."

Smogon is a community of competitive players. Everyone is out there playing to win; that is where they get their enjoyment out of the game. I will not, and neither should anyone else, advocate certain Pokemon, sets, teams, or whatever if I do not believe that it will win you the majority of games in a competitive environment such as ladders or tournaments. Now don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem if you get your enjoyment and fun from the game by fooling around and using what you think is cool (I run into those times too). But if that is where you get the majority of fun in the game, you aren't really in the right community or environment (at least on this specific OU forum).

This forum isn't about "in OU use poke x." It is about "win in OU with poke x."
_________________________________________

Sorry if you felt like I attacked you personally, but it is just a rant I have about these forums. Newer players on here are not going to get better if the community around them and the posts that come out of that community don't focus on the idea that we talk about Pokemon that will give us the best chance to win. And I sincerely do want them to get better because I want to see this game develop