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Weather and its effects on the metagame

To be honest, that's not really the best thing for Tornadus. In my opinion, every Choiced Tornadus set needs to have Rain Dance and Tailwind. To be honest, you're either using Hurricane or Focus Blast. It's nice to have an emergency Rain Dance, or Tailwind if something is getting scary. It's really helpful!
 
To be honest, that's not really the best thing for Tornadus. In my opinion, every Choiced Tornadus set needs to have Rain Dance and Tailwind. To be honest, you're either using Hurricane or Focus Blast. It's nice to have an emergency Rain Dance, or Tailwind if something is getting scary. It's really helpful!


Oh, whoops forgot to mention that i run tailwind and rain dance on my tornadus, thats why i run life orb!
 
I'm starting to get into the anti-weather style of play where I run mons that can take advantage of my opponents weather and use it against them, or ones with unpredictable moves/items designed to make sure to bring a weather sweep up short.
 
Why would you bring up teams centered around Dragonite and then say, "can Salamence do this?" No, of course he can't. He doesn't have Multiscale or ExtremeSpeed. What we're saying, however, is that Salamence is a pokemon that can abuse a multitude of weathers. Saying, "Dragonite does it better," is a pretty bold statement. We didn't even talk about what specific set we're talking about here (though obviously we're talking about the best Salamence set, mixed). Can Dragonite run as good as a mixed set as Salamence can? Hell no. Can Salamence abuse rain and sun? Hell yes. Is Dragonite a better bulkier dancer? Of course.

I was just pointing that out that the majority of players (both good and bad) prefer Dragonite in almost all instances. Just trying to prove a point heh...

Saying Dragonite "does it better" isn't a bold statement, its a an undeniable fact. Ask pretty much anyone invested in BW OU metagame and they'll tell you that Dragonite is a better Dragon Dancer not just bulky, offensive dancer too. Dragonite's nomination seals the deal, its good enough to be considered Uber by a few users whereas people just ignore Salamence. Much, better (in general) on rain and sun team, a MUCH better Choice Bander, slightly worse at going mixed/equal to Mence(Metagross66 can attest to this with his amazing weatherless team team) a better defensive mon, better at sub DDing, can run a mixed rain set, can run a parashuffling test.

TL;DR Dragonite is the best, Salamence is for bitches just can't compare.
 
I'm starting to get into the anti-weather style of play where I run mons that can take advantage of my opponents weather and use it against them, or ones with unpredictable moves/items designed to make sure to bring a weather sweep up short.

The second strategy (random Thunder Waves/Lum Berries yay) I understand, but could you elaborate on the first? Bringing a Chlorophyll Pokemon around in case of sun?
 
I use this Terrakion to counter sandstorm teams. Being part rock type he takes no damage from sandstorm. While he works well against rain and sun, it's Sandstorm he works best in. He has great offensive typeing, as well as 315 speed. Just enough to outspeed alot of the tier(Salamence, Haxorus, Jirachi, Espeon) The best part about him is the focus sash. Most people wouldn't expect it. And I can always just throw him out to stop a potential sweep. I can Taunt or Swords Dance against most things without having to be afraid of anything. Hope this helped.
Terrakion w/Focus Sash
Justified
Adamant, 252 Attack/252 HP
-Close Combat
-Stone Edge/Rock Slide
-Taunt
-Swords Dance
 
I was just pointing that out that the majority of players (both good and bad) prefer Dragonite in almost all instances. Just trying to prove a point heh...

Saying Dragonite "does it better" isn't a bold statement, its a an undeniable fact. Ask pretty much anyone invested in BW OU metagame and they'll tell you that Dragonite is a better Dragon Dancer not just bulky, offensive dancer too. Dragonite's nomination seals the deal, its good enough to be considered Uber by a few users whereas people just ignore Salamence. Much, better (in general) on rain and sun team, a MUCH better Choice Bander, slightly worse at going mixed/equal to Mence(Metagross66 can attest to this with his amazing weatherless team team) a better defensive mon, better at sub DDing, can run a mixed rain set, can run a parashuffling test.

TL;DR Dragonite is the best, Salamence is for bitches just can't compare.

Chipping in here. I don't see how Salamence abuses weather better than Dragonite. Under Sun, Mence has what? Fire Blast? So done Nite, who can also abuse Fire Punch on his DD set. Rain? Mence has Hydro Pump and Aqua Tail. Nite has Waterfall, Thunder, and Hurricane. Aqua Jet too, but it's almost useless.

What does Mence do better?
 
Mence has 30 higher base special attack than dragonite, and under sunlight, it can rid the field of physical walls such as gliscor with SR and very little special attack investment at all. Its draco meteor is actually a threat, as opposed to roughly being on the same level as Altaria's. Under sunlight, it is handled by much less than dragonite is, and has higher initial speed to boot, not being outrun by the likes of Ninetales (this matters thanks to will-o-wisp if you aren't running Lum berry and the few who use hp ice) and other nuisances like lucario. Even with the sun boost, dragonite's fire punch is still a base 75 power attack. And why mention aqua jet at all if it's useless, just like you said?

I'm not too sure why he's being written off so easily. Dragonite does a number of sets better, but you guys also need to remember that he's easier to simply put on a team. Salamence hates sand, SR, and Scizor and quite frankly cannot stand trying to set up in a faster metagame . He also dislikes scarf landorus and scarf terrakion. I think he'll make a comeback with excadrill gone, if I'm actually right about stall teams taking off the ground.

Rain mence doesn't do much though. And after running into three seperate SpD Zapdos in the OU tier yesterday, I think I can safely say that tornadus is no thundurus replacement... D=
 
alphatron said:
Mence has 30 higher base special attack than dragonite...

...Its draco meteor is actually a threat, as opposed to roughly being on the same level as Altaria's...

You might need to reassess your opinion on Dragonite once you've actually bothered to learn his stats. ^_~

Dragonite actually has 100 Base SpA, not 80 like you imply. This, combined with the fact that Salamence often insists on running a +Spe nature whilst Dragonite is much more inclined to run a +Offense nature means Dragonite will often hit harder off the bat than his younger brother.
 
I was just pointing that out that the majority of players (both good and bad) prefer Dragonite in almost all instances. Just trying to prove a point heh...

Saying Dragonite "does it better" isn't a bold statement, its a an undeniable fact. Ask pretty much anyone invested in BW OU metagame and they'll tell you that Dragonite is a better Dragon Dancer not just bulky, offensive dancer too. Dragonite's nomination seals the deal, its good enough to be considered Uber by a few users whereas people just ignore Salamence. Much, better (in general) on rain and sun team, a MUCH better Choice Bander, slightly worse at going mixed/equal to Mence(Metagross66 can attest to this with his amazing weatherless team team) a better defensive mon, better at sub DDing, can run a mixed rain set, can run a parashuffling test.

TL;DR Dragonite is the best, Salamence is for bitches just can't compare.

I fail to see how ANY Dragonite set lacking Roost can be called superior to Salamence, as any form of residual damage turns Roostless Dragonites into Gen 4 Dragonites, who ARE inferior to Salamence.

That would be CB Nite, by the way, who can only really boast about Extremespeed, while Mence has a slightly higher attack, and far superior speed.

Also, calling Mence frail is outright foolish. 95/80/80 IS NOT FRAIL. In comparison to Dragonite it might be, but if 95/80/80 is frail, Haxorus' 76/90/70 defenses, without Intimidate as well, might I add, must make him die to a Luvdisc. Hell, Latias is more physically frail than Salamence. Salamence only seems frail because it's SR weak, and Life Orb recoil.

Running MixNite is also inferior to Mixmence, unless it's on a Rain team, and even then, you could run HydroPump Mence [Latios runs Surf on Rain teams, after all]

The only sets Dragonite outright outclasses Salamence in are Bulky DD+Roost and stall-based sets utiliseing Dragon Tail. Likewise, Mence outclasses Dragonite with DD+3 attacks, and as a mixed attacker, as well as, in my opinion, a Choice Bander [Due to higher speed and an ability which supports the hit and run nature of a Choice Bander, not one that's utterly useless on a CB set]

---

Anyway, the Dragonite v Salamence is going off-topic, so going back on topic...

Personally, I think in it's current state, weather is detremental to the metagame. Personally, I think having things like Gastrodon, as I've said MANY times before, is more than enough evidence of that, especially when you look at Porygon 2 failing to make OU in Gen 4, despite countering Gyarados, Heatran, Jolteon, some Vaporeon and checking Salamence with the same set.

However, unlike many other people who are unhappy with weather, I do see it staying in the metagame. Except rain. Rain really needs to get the hell out of OU. Water's already argueably the best type in the game, vying with Dragon, and giving Water attacks a x1.5 boost, when most Water types are fairly powerful already, bulky, and Water makes such a good coverage type, in my opinion, is overkill.

Especially when the 100% accurate Thunder takes out opposing Waters, and Ice beam takes out Dragons and any grass not called Ferrothorn...

My personal solution would be to ban Drizzle, unban Manaphy, and then see where the meta develops from there. Drizzle is still incredibly powerful, even after three bans made to nerf it [Manaphy, SS+Drizzle, and argueably Thunderus would not have been Uber without 100% accurate Thunders ruining some things that COULD check him, like Sp.Def Jirachi]

Especially when Rain teams wise up and start runing Grass Knnot/HP Grass to take out opposing Rotom-W and Gastrodons. I'm shocked Ludicolo isn't on most rain teams already, considering his movepool, Rain Dish and Giga Drain helping to offset Life Orb, and decent stats. Not to mention him giving Rotom-W and Gastrodon the middle finger.

I think the other weathers can be benificial and aid diversity in the metagame, although Sun might need a ban on Volcarona without Rain around.
 
I mixed up dragonite's speed with SpA.

For the record, I don't see the point in running a +Speed nature on DDmence that much anymore, thanks to new speed tiers. 5th gen mence should be running an atk/Spa boosting nature now since base 100 spd doesn't matter as much as it used to.

Sorry about the slip up. Whoops.
 
Mence, for the moment, is Underrated. Here's the problem with Mence: Multiscale offers Dnite more defensive presence, (provided you can keep SR and burn/poison damage away from him) and more general utility, making Dnite more useful in more situations. Dragonite has a specific niche that makes him popular and very effective, and that obviously takes away from any other pokemon with the same BST, typing, and move-skeleton. Like Salamence. Salamence can be amazing, and much better than Dnite at certain things, but unless you need a specific niche filled that Salamence can occupy, Dragonite will usually come out on top.

Both Pokemon are amazing, but when it comes down to it, Dnite's niche is bigger and wider than Mence's. At least, for now. Wait till Moxie Outrage becomes a reality, then the two dragons could possibly become equals with completely different niches.
 
Mence, for the moment, is Underrated. Here's the problem with Mence: Multiscale offers Dnite more defensive presence, (provided you can keep SR and burn/poison damage away from him) and more general utility, making Dnite more useful in more situations. Dragonite has a specific niche that makes him popular and very effective, and that obviously takes away from any other pokemon with the same BST, typing, and move-skeleton. Like Salamence. Salamence can be amazing, and much better than Dnite at certain things, but unless you need a specific niche filled that Salamence can occupy, Dragonite will usually come out on top.

Both Pokemon are amazing, but when it comes down to it, Dnite's niche is bigger and wider than Mence's. At least, for now. Wait till Moxie Outrage becomes a reality, then the two dragons could possibly become equals with completely different niches.

You pretty much just said "Here's the problem with Mence, Dragonite is better" You didn't give any reasons why Sally is worse. I think Sally is way better overall than Dragonite. His EV spread lets him do pretty much whatever he wants. And he is a great addition to any weather team. Sure, Multi-Scale is an amazing ability, But that doesn't mean that he's overall better. I'm not saying that Dragonite can't be better either. Idk, If SR are up Dragonite has nothing on Sally. Thats about it.
 
You pretty much just said "Here's the problem with Mence, Dragonite is better" You didn't give any reasons why Sally is worse. I think Sally is way better overall than Dragonite. His EV spread lets him do pretty much whatever he wants. And he is a great addition to any weather team. Sure, Multi-Scale is an amazing ability, But that doesn't mean that he's overall better. I'm not saying that Dragonite can't be better either. Idk, If SR are up Dragonite has nothing on Sally. Thats about it.

If you want an all-out offensive dragon, Mence is your man, hands down. I didn't mean to come across as just saying "dnite is better" so Im sorry. Honestly, Dnite's greater usage has more to do with the metagame around it; a more offensive, fast-paced metagame would be much kinder to Mence, as he is a much more offensive, fast-paced dragon. If that suits your team better, and if that's what you find to be more effective, more power to you.
 
I fail to see how ANY Dragonite set lacking Roost can be called superior to Salamence, as any form of residual damage turns Roostless Dragonites into Gen 4 Dragonites, who ARE inferior to Salamence.
Keep residual damage off Dragonite isn't too hard. Yes we lost our best spinner, but its not like Dragonite teams ran excadrill anyway. In fact if you look at Blue_stars team his team puts enough pressure to prevent dnite from eating SR period + the sun is up.
Your explanation does not explain why Blue_Star, X5 Dragon and other users prefer to use Dragonite on their weatherless / sun / rain teams. In theory, Dragonite seems inferior to Salamence but in practice this is hardly the case. I stand by what I said before, Dragonite better at every set barring the mixed set.

That would be CB Nite, by the way, who can only really boast about Extremespeed, while Mence has a slightly higher attack, and far superior speed.
You forgot to mention the ability to avoid getting OHKOed by pretty much anything, the ability to invest in bulk BECAUSE of multiscale and e-speed and the ability to use an adamant nature. Mence is actually WEAKER on average because there's no point to using an adamant nature on him. His speed is made irrelevant because Dnites disgusting bulk and +2 priority move (which fucks over ice shard users now)

Also, calling Mence frail is outright foolish. 95/80/80 IS NOT FRAIL. In comparison to Dragonite it might be, but if 95/80/80 is frail, Haxorus' 76/90/70 defenses, without Intimidate as well, might I add, must make him die to a Luvdisc. Hell, Latias is more physically frail than Salamence. Salamence only seems frail because it's SR weak, and Life Orb recoil
Pretty much anything with a SR weak and averagish defenses are considered frail. When you take into account its almost ALWAYS using LO, yeah i can confidently say its "frail."

Running MixNite is also inferior to Mixmence, unless it's on a Rain team, and even then, you could run HydroPump Mence [Latios runs Surf on Rain teams, after all]
I personally think Mixmence is slightly better than Mixnite, but Metagross66 has proven the opposite. You see, metagross actually has feats of mixed dragonite succeeding so I wouldn't even be surprised if it were equal to mixmence.


The only sets Dragonite outright outclasses Salamence in are Bulky DD+Roost and stall-based sets utiliseing Dragon Tail. Likewise, Mence outclasses Dragonite with DD+3 attacks, and as a mixed attacker, as well as, in my opinion, a Choice Bander [Due to higher speed and an ability which supports the hit and run nature of a Choice Bander, not one that's utterly useless on a CB set]
You're wrong on nearly all accounts. Salamence cannot run a DD Lum set thats as effective as Dragonite, its CB set is weaker, lacks priority and has less bulk. You fail to mention its mixed rain sets. (which was the star of M Dragons which ended up being on of the best BW teams out there) Its mixed attacker set is something I already conceded to being superior to Dragonite (and even then Metagross66 has proved otherwise)

On top usage stats, Dragonite has feats that prove he's superior to Mence. Just take a look at M Dragon's team, a stall team that utilizes Dragonite as a key member to handle a variety of threats and at the same time threaten most of the metagame with its powerful STAB moves. Mence has none of those things.

To Summarize:
Dragonite has feats over Salamence (A TON of top tier teams that uses and abuses him, I linked to them earlier)
Dragonite has stats over Salamence (#5 vs #34, this is self explanatory)
Dragonite has been nominated for ubers (obvious) mence has not.

Dragonite is a better pokemon on almost all counts.
 
Alright as great as Salamence vs. Dragonite is that wasn't really where I was aiming with the opening post. I was just giving an example of a pokemon who can fucntion well in several different team archetypes. It had nothing to do with "Yo Mence is better than Dragonite."

Regardless, what the OP is asking is what pokemon have benefited from weather being in the metagame opposed to what pokemon are better due to their new gen 5 abilities (fuggin' Multiscale BS). So let's get this thread back on track!

Mamoswine is another one of those pokemon that has benefited greatly from the metagame that weather has created. Life Orb Mamoswine decimates almost all of the metagame currently. With amazing dual STABs that neither sand teams, rain teams, or sun teams want to come in on makes Mamoswine the pinnacle of anti-metagame at the moment. The one sand abuser that honestly gives Mamoswine any issue is Terrakion, but Terrakion gives most everything an issue. Another pokemon which has taken huge leaps because of the increase of stall teams and the increase of Terrakion (both of which can be attested to the rise of "standard" rain and sand teams) is Mew. Who completely stops Terrakion with a defensive spread, and can basically, by itself, stop stall entirely.
 
Froslass (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Snow Cloak
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Substitute / Thunder Wave
- Confuse Ray
- Weather Ball
- Shadow Ball

I used to use this thing on my full-blown Hail-team, and man is it a bear. Parahax Snow Cloak is a great time while Shadow Ball and Weather Ball can both hit hard. You could even throw Spikes on there if you wanted to be ridiculously annoying. C'mon, this lady is getting lots of controversy in UU. Show it some love in OU!

But going off of Smith's post, Abomasnow really is a cool "weatherless" type Pokemon. It can save your butt in a pinch if their weather starter is done. It has a solid late-game presence with 120 BP dual STABs. Choice Scarf allows it to outspeed all other weather starters and KO with the appropriate move. STAB Ice Shard, especially on the CB set, is an enticing option. I really recommend using him on your team if you're facing problems with weather. Bonus: it resists Earthquake and pretty much every move on Rotom-W (bar HP Fire).
 
Right, sorry for derailing the thread. You're a 100% wrong about Mamo it doesn't-

lol j/k

I totally agree, Mamoswine is straight thug, can check a lot of the meta and REALLY hard to outright counter. LO return does over 50% offensive Rotom-W (arguably his best check) which is pretty damn awesome.
 
Seriously, if it wasn't for weather, I don't think Dugtrio would even EXIST in OU. The ability to remove TTar / Heatran for Sun teams and Ninetales / TTar for heavy offense Rain teams has definitely allowed Dugtrio's presence notable in this tier. I am pretty sure it's more used than in DPP OU.
 
I used to use Classic MixMence in sand to remove Excadrill's counters, but, yeah. DD is a great sun check, as long as he avoids chlorophyll HP Ice. He can also spam outrages as good haxxy (although it doesn't get a sexy 2HKO on forry). The thing is, though, Salamence is one of the only (mainly) physical dragons that can decimate Skarmory, which really increases its viability in Sandstorm. Intimidate is more reliable than MultiScale, because it gets shit done without Spinning or Clear Skies. No I'm not biased or anything, I just think Salamence is a great abuser of Sun, and a great counter counter for Sand, especially when Excadrill was still around.

PK, you said Dragonite outclassed Salamence in everything but Mixed, but Salamence can still pass Wishes, giving him a niche as a defencive mon for Sun teams, and it can still do damage in return with Dragon Claw or Flamethrower. He also outclasses Dragonite with his Offencive DD set. Unlike Dragonite, Salamence can use Life Orb without ruining the only reason it's used. That gives it a lot more power, and the ability to OHKO Gliscor with a +1 LO Adamant Outrage after SR, something Offencive DD Dragonite can't do.
 
It's funny how in the Sandstorm article thread in C&C, someone said that it was pointless to move on after Excadrill was banned. Nevermind the fact that Generation 5 was the first time there was sand offense (what I mean is, Pokemon have abilities that boost Attack/Speed like the handfull of abilities that abuse rain and sun for similar purposes). Before that, sand was a way of doing a little extra damage both to stall your opponent and, to an extent, break Focus Sash / Endure / Endeavor strategies. Sand is here to stay, since Tyranitar is such a beastly Pokemon that can go either defensive or offensive, and hopefully keep rain and sun at bay. If you can wear down Politoed or Ninetales enough, Tyranitar becomes a makeshift revenge killer, restoring the weather while KOing with Pursuit (yes, it works, especially against Ninetales).

Rain is possibly the most annoying weather effect in existence. It wasn't as bad in DPP where it actually took effort to set up and sweep. Now, you have Politoed getting a free Specs boost on its STAB moves, making him very hard to switch into. It also completely neuters powerful Fire-types such as Darmanitan, Chandelure, and especially Heatran. Gastrodon is now OU because sand and, to a lesser extent, rain are everywhere. Storm Drain lets it adapt to rain, and its typing gives it an immunity to sand stall. It gets has Recover, great defenses, and nice STABs in Earth Power, Scald, and Earthquake.

While rain is the most annoying weather, sun is by far the most dangerous. Ninetales isn't as effective as Politoed in its weather, but Heatran and Darmanitan make incredibly powerful sweepers, and Volcarona is pretty much only stopped by Choice Scarfers if it can get up a Quiver Dance on the switch. Darmanitan in particular can run a Scarf set and wreck even Pokemon who resist it with a sun and Sheer Force boosted Flare Blitz. If Venusaur manages to pull of a Growth if your opponent switch es out of it, its Hidden Power Fire goes from a 70 BP back up coverage move into a very respectable 105 BP attack. Swords Dance Sawsbuck is just as ridiculous, getting its own Speed boost without the need for a Choice Scarf (unlike Darmanitan).
 
Nixhex, you have a good point. However, Sun is checked by the fact that rain and sand teams are so common. Against clear skies, sun is very dangerous, being the only weather that is allowed to have pokes that double speed in sun. (For sand, with exca banned, only stoutland has sand rush, and that isn't really viable in OU). If rain and sand were to be banned, sun would reign over everything. However, sun suffered a huge blow from the banning of Blaziken.
Also, rain at the moment is probably king because it beats both weathers, and has powerful abusers like Tornadus, albeit though Thundurus was banned.
 
You know what's amazing on sun teams and destroys a lot of rain-based threats, bulky waters, AND Tyranitar? Raikou.

Raikou @ Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
Rash
252 Spatk / 4 Spdef / 252 Spe
-Thunderbolt
-Weatherball
-Aura Sphere
-Volt Switch

I guess this could be for any weather (it's awesome in hail), but I like to use it on my sun teams to kill waters. He can't really switch into offensive pokes, but if Raikou comes in on Politoed or Tyranitar setting up SR, he can force them out with ease. Then you can either volt switch into Ninetales and get your own weather up, or, if you predict something like Landorus to come in, weatherball rock will put the smackdown on him with a probable 2hko. Also, weatherball is EXTREMELY strong in sun OR rain. Specs Sun weatherball does something like 40-45% to Blissey. The only problem with Raikou is that he's walled to hell by Gastrodon, but that can always be played around with something like Venusaur.
 
Without Rain Thundurus wouldn't have gotten to OU, Tornadus is quite useless because the only reason people use it is because they want to Spam Hurricane.
 
Rain Specs Nite
Dragonite @ Choiec Specs
Multiscale
Modest 252 SpA/ 252 Spe/ 4 SpD
Hurricane
Draco Meteor
Thunder
Surf

I didn't make this set. Saw Nbz using it.
 
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