Note that Donphan has Sturdy, so if it can get in for free (unlikely for a spinner, but still, if) it is (almost) guaranteed one turn. That is one thing all those other pokemon that "outclass" it lack. If it is used in the lead spot, you can even give it a Custap Berry to (almost) guarantee two turns. Another thing Donphan has over the offensive spinners is Stealth Rock, and it has a base 120 attack stat compared to the more defensive spinners.
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What aren't we writing about? (Pokemon unfit for OU Analyses)
- Thread starter Seven Deadly Sins
- Start date
Custap isn't released. I would still be using Destiny Bond+Custap Wobbuffet if it was released. Stealth Rock can be set up by so many other Pokemon that are better, but I guess that's a minor point for Donphan. And that base 120 Attack is backed up with being unable to deal enough damage to common threats.
Sandslash has stealth rock, sand rush, rapid spin...
Decent enough bulk. Point being its fast enough to avoid some common threats, and your "getting in free" loses out to entry hazards which you'd be coming in to stop.
What good does stealth rock do donphan when he is too slow to do anything with it? As a lead, theres tons of better pokemon to choose from. As a switch-in, he loses all use because of his speed. If theres a sandstorm, slash gets either a +1 to evasion which is better than nothing, or double speed which puts it way higher.
Long story short: use exca.
I've looked through the list and found these to discuss:
Alakazam: I'd argue that it has some use with its extremely valuable base speed and fairly high power. Sure its defences are terrible, but the ability to outspeed a bunch of really nice threats has to be worth something. In addition, it's a pretty veritable threat in the general sense; 135 SpA is nothing to sneeze at. Pity that it has no Magic Guard though. nvm Azelf
Ambipom: Nice speed combines with an expansive movepool (many random threats like Garchomp and Tar can be OHKOed with the right coverage move), decent attack, and Switcheroo to form something that's not worth ignoring.
Crawdaunt: Not the most optimal TR sweeper, butEncourage Adaptability (released already) boosts Waterfall and Crunch and Superpower is retained as an egg move. Special Attack is also pleasantly decent, meaning Hidden Power is usable.
Exeggutor: Already released and Harvest has a very gimmicky (but definitely usable) nature. Chlorophyll brings Psychic moves to Sun, which is really nice, actually.
Jynx: One of hail's few Trick users.
Magneton: Eviolite+Skarm trapping I guess?
Manectric: Slower Thundurus with less trolly speed but fire moves instead of focus blast and also trick. Trades SR for Spikes weak.
Mesprit: I'm sure you can find something for this to do... extremely nice base stats help it a lot.
Octillery: One of two possesors of Suction Cups, which means you're not phazing it at the end of a BP chain. Also, has a wider movepool than Cradily.
P-Z: As already noted, it seems good on paper. Bulky boosting seems to be the way to go (Normal/Ground has perfect coverage this gen bar the now uncommon gengar) but Fighting types do hurt.
Sandslash: I've heard people praising double dragon with dory but otherwise it's shaky.
Walrein/Regice: Dedicated hail teams can use these vs. the everpresent Ferrothorn to gain free turns for 32 moves (which they can stall out anyway lol).
Gigalith: Rhyperior with better typing but worse ability and no STAB on EQ (TR threat)
Emboar: On paper, looks like it could be a decent bulky booster in Sun. Will-o-wisp/Bulk Up begins to look really good when you realize that water-type moves are bad in rain and that the only user of leech seed that's common is decimated by Flare Blitz.
Ambipom: Nice speed combines with an expansive movepool (many random threats like Garchomp and Tar can be OHKOed with the right coverage move), decent attack, and Switcheroo to form something that's not worth ignoring.
Crawdaunt: Not the most optimal TR sweeper, but
Exeggutor: Already released and Harvest has a very gimmicky (but definitely usable) nature. Chlorophyll brings Psychic moves to Sun, which is really nice, actually.
Jynx: One of hail's few Trick users.
Magneton: Eviolite+Skarm trapping I guess?
Manectric: Slower Thundurus with less trolly speed but fire moves instead of focus blast and also trick. Trades SR for Spikes weak.
Mesprit: I'm sure you can find something for this to do... extremely nice base stats help it a lot.
Octillery: One of two possesors of Suction Cups, which means you're not phazing it at the end of a BP chain. Also, has a wider movepool than Cradily.
P-Z: As already noted, it seems good on paper. Bulky boosting seems to be the way to go (Normal/Ground has perfect coverage this gen bar the now uncommon gengar) but Fighting types do hurt.
Sandslash: I've heard people praising double dragon with dory but otherwise it's shaky.
Walrein/
Gigalith: Rhyperior with better typing but worse ability and no STAB on EQ (TR threat)
Emboar: On paper, looks like it could be a decent bulky booster in Sun. Will-o-wisp/Bulk Up begins to look really good when you realize that water-type moves are bad in rain and that the only user of leech seed that's common is decimated by Flare Blitz.
Actually, even better; it has Adaptability, not Encourage. Or Sheer Force. Which means you get a consistent and slightly better boost, and you even keep those second effects.
Edit:
No legendaries have their Dream World abilities released. Froslass and the Fridge outclass Regice on offense, while Blissey/Chansey outclass defensively. It's basically outclassed by Rotom-F, but Regice is bulkier. However, Rotom-F gets Will-O-Wisp to help greatly for physical attackers, and Electric+Ice+Levitate (almost) completely outclasses pure Ice.
Rebuttals:
Ambipom: Fire Punch and Tech Low Kick allow it to hurt steels pretty badly. I admit it's not getting past skarmory but it certainly will have fun OHKOing Ferrothorn with Band/LO Fire Punch (I'm nearly positive that Band is a OHKO; LO may come short without prior damage). Breaking subs is a nice advantage. Again, Trick. Mienshao does not have that.
Manectric: Flamethrower/Overheat (decimates Ferrothorn with a move that's very convenient, unlike Thundurus, who has to do so with HP Fire (which is weak, otherwise useless, and wastes Hidden Power Ice) or Focus Blast (which is only a 2HKO and has the least reliable accuracy in the world)) and Trick (which works well due to the fact that Volt Switch makes it perfectly suited to a choice item). It has potential at the very least.
Emboar: Look at its weaknesses, actually. Psychic is relatively ignorable because it's seen almost exclusively on Pokemon that get STAB on it (in this sense, I mean that only 2 common pokemon - Reuniclus and Latias - use it). Flying is never seen, except on Tornelos. Water is effectively cancelled out by Sun. Ground (and also Rock neutrality) is where smart prediction (with team preview) allows you to get a Will-o-wisp off and start setting up Bulk Ups. Most carriers of phazing moves (pretty much Skarm lol) are Fire weak, bar the uncommon Hippowdon (please don't try to argue its superiority over Tar).
Ambipom: Fire Punch and Tech Low Kick allow it to hurt steels pretty badly. I admit it's not getting past skarmory but it certainly will have fun OHKOing Ferrothorn with Band/LO Fire Punch (I'm nearly positive that Band is a OHKO; LO may come short without prior damage). Breaking subs is a nice advantage. Again, Trick. Mienshao does not have that.
Manectric: Flamethrower/Overheat (decimates Ferrothorn with a move that's very convenient, unlike Thundurus, who has to do so with HP Fire (which is weak, otherwise useless, and wastes Hidden Power Ice) or Focus Blast (which is only a 2HKO and has the least reliable accuracy in the world)) and Trick (which works well due to the fact that Volt Switch makes it perfectly suited to a choice item). It has potential at the very least.
Emboar: Look at its weaknesses, actually. Psychic is relatively ignorable because it's seen almost exclusively on Pokemon that get STAB on it (in this sense, I mean that only 2 common pokemon - Reuniclus and Latias - use it). Flying is never seen, except on Tornelos. Water is effectively cancelled out by Sun. Ground (and also Rock neutrality) is where smart prediction (with team preview) allows you to get a Will-o-wisp off and start setting up Bulk Ups. Most carriers of phazing moves (pretty much Skarm lol) are Fire weak, bar the uncommon Hippowdon (please don't try to argue its superiority over Tar).
Mienshao basically does all of the things that you're saying Ambipom does with just HJK. Would you rather have a Pokemon that can OHKO this, that, or the other if you predict correctly...or a Pokemon that can OHKO all of those things with its main STAB attack? (Hell, it almost 2HKOs physically defensive Skarmory.) Ambipom was pretty marginal last gen, and now it's outclassed by a Pokemon that even now is having a little trouble finding a firm niche in OU.
Hammer Arm. Mixed Thundurus is all over the place on PO right now.
Nosepass has pretty solid defenses, but shitty everything else. Does it have a chance with Eviolite as a utility Poke? I didn't have anything specific in mind, aside from Magic Coat.
Have you forgotten Rotom-H? If you need a fire move, you might as well like STAB with it. It is SR weak and Spikes immune, like Thundurus and unlike Manectric. Rotom-H also has Trick to match Manectric's Switcheroo. The only significant thing Manectric has over Rotom-H is 19 points of speed and the option to use Flamethrower. However, Rotom-H has better defenses which are easier to put EVs in (you can get 10% bulkier for less EVs) not including Will-O-Wisp, equal special attack, a bigger movepool with moves like Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse and Will-O-Wisp.
The bulk means little when it has no recovery at all (you give up Leftovers) and the fact it can't hurt anything. The fact it's so slow also means that some pokemon can just set up slowly as its Taunt will go second, beating it down between set up.
Evolite Magneton does everything Nosepass could do just a lot better. Not to mention the fact that Magnezone does better than both of them in almost every single situation.
Dusclops outclasses it defensively, and Magnezone outclasses it as a Steel Trapper since it can actually hit stuff.
DISCLAIMER: I'M REALLY TIRED
LumRest allows for not only reliably full recovery (as there is literally no time for Knock Off in this metagame), but it also allows Exeggutor to become a team's reliable status absorber. While Celebi has Natural Cure to invalidate the permanence of status, it can still be forced out by sleep, or aggravated by paralysis. Meanwhile, Exeggutor can easily shake them off and stay in the fray, while also having instant, 100% recovery. It also, unlike Celebi, gets access to both Stun Spore and Sleep Powder.
Notable moves include Ingrain, Synthesis/Moonlight, Hidden Power, Giga Drain, Grass Knot, dual screens, Wood Hammer, Leaf Storm, Swords Dance, Zen Headbutt, Low Kick, Seed Bomb, Substitute, Psyshock, and Trick Room.
I haven't used him, but I'm brainstorming...
[SET]
name: Status + Absorber
move 1: Sleep Powder
move 2: Psychic / Psyshock / Stun Spore
move 3: Giga Drain / Wood Hammer
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Rest
item: Lum Berry
ability: Harvest
nature: Modest / Rash
evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Self-explanatory. Rash if you want to use Wood Hammer or something. Hidden Power Fire for coverage or Rest for recovery. Can switch in on status moves easily. An alternate EV spread/nature is likely better.
[SET]
name: Physical Sweeper
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Sleep Powder
move 3: Giga Drain / Zen Headbutt
move 4: Low Kick / Hidden Power Fire
item: Choice Band / Life Orb
ability: Chlorophyll
nature: Adamant
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Speaks for itself as an obligatory Chlorophyll set. Competes terribly with Shiftry.
[SET]
name: Trick Room Sleep Supporter
move 1: Trick Room
move 2: Sleep Powder
move 3: Giga Drain
move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Rest
item: Lum Berry
ability: Harvest
nature: Quiet
evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Def
Serves the role of a Trick Room user, status spreader, and status absorber. It also has the power to do some damage of its own with Giga Drain and Hidden Power. Defensive spread is probably best, but I suck at coming up with them.
[SET]
name: Screen Support
move 1: Sleep Powder
move 2: Reflect
move 3: Light Screen
move 4: Rest / Leech Seed / Giga Drain / Leaf Storm
item: Lum Berry / Light Clay
ability: Harvest / Chlorophyll
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Exeggutor is the only Pokémon (besides Smeargle) with access to Sleep Powder AND dual screens. While it sacrifices Light Clay, Exeggutor also has access to 100% recovery with Harvest, which can allow it to easily last through the battle to provide screen support and absorb status. If using a Drought team, Chlorophyll is probably more useful, as 458 Speed is amazing (other Speed EVs / nature can be used, I guess, depending on what you need to outspeed... too lazy and tired, right now, since it's pretty much morning now).
Not sure what could be done with a Custap Berry, once it's released... Maybe a sweeping set. Actually, Trick Room + Swords Dance would be pretty much just as good and more reliable, but Custap could free room for Sleep Powder, I guess...
I'm really damned tired. Don't blame me for idiot ideas. Actually, blame me, because I really should be sleeping right now.
-Zane
P.S. I hate to be an eager McBeaver but... If deemed viable, DIBS. c:
Magic Coat and Stealth Rock are really all it has going for it. It could come in on something like Skarmory, but then it would just be Whirlwinded out, and Nattorei has STAB grass attacks that hurt. If it had Spikes, it would be amazing, but alas, it's basically a surefire Stealth Rock and that's it.
Harvest looks really fun on Exeggutor, but you must remember, if you choose that ability, then you drop Chlorophyll. A status absorber isn't to useful when you're U-turn or Pursuit-weak. Not to mention weak to a host a many different common types. Chlorophyll is probably the best way to use him (and with Nintales around, his moveslots are free). An OU analysis can be considered. But remember that Tyranitar (Who's faster, has Sand Stream, and STAB Pursuit) is a common check/counter.
I've recently come up with a Focus Sash/Metal Burst set for Mawile that I've been using very successfully against just about every top threat in OU/Ubers.
-It's similar to Wobbuffet in that it nearly always succeeds in OHKOing an opponent's pokemon.
-It's functionality is close to FEAR sets, however it's not nearly as gimmicky as it doesn't need to be a lower level than your target. (In fact, because of how Metal Burst works, the more HP on Mawile, the better.)
-Despite it's low stats, the set I have actually abuses them, instead of being held back by them.
I'd gladly write up an analysis if Mawile is allowed one.
-It's similar to Wobbuffet in that it nearly always succeeds in OHKOing an opponent's pokemon.
-It's functionality is close to FEAR sets, however it's not nearly as gimmicky as it doesn't need to be a lower level than your target. (In fact, because of how Metal Burst works, the more HP on Mawile, the better.)
-Despite it's low stats, the set I have actually abuses them, instead of being held back by them.
I'd gladly write up an analysis if Mawile is allowed one.
It's just that Harvest has a LOT to offer as a way to differentiate Exeggutor from things like Venusaur and Shiftry; it definitely provides an irreplaceable reason to use Exeggutor. Exeggutor is very sad to have missed out on Growth. Should have listened to those spam emails...
-Zane
Vanilluxe is worth writing about.
71/95/85/110/95/79
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Vanilluxe_(Pok%C3%A9mon)
Its defenses may be mediocre, but its Attack is decent and its Special attack is good. It gets a stab priority move, a move that doubles its speed, a stab ice beam and Ice Body. I think that its worth mentioning. I do realize as a pure ice type with a very limited movepool most people have overlooked this guy thinking he sucked, but he would work great in a hail team and survives relatively well as a slightly defensive sweeper in or out of hail.
Ability: Ice Body
Item: Expert Belt/Life Orb.
- Ice Beam/Frost Breath/Blizzard
- Autotomize
- Ice Shard
- Hidden Power Fighting/Fire/Psychic
Frost Breath is the base 40 special move that ALWAYS crits, which breaks through screens and special defense raises. Ice Beam can be used over it for more power. Blizzard is for if you are playing Vanilluxe in Hail. This goes great with his Ice Body ability.
Expert Belt is the item of choice for Vanilluxe because it makes you more likely to pick off some fighting type pokemon with a Hidden Power Psychic, some Steels with Fire/Fighting etc., I think it works better than leftovers because you need the slight power boost. Life Orb can be used over Expert Belt if you wish to power up all of his moves rather than just the super effective ones.
Autotomize doubles speed but halves your weight, which isnt a problem persay because you don't have to worry about Aggrons in OU generally. Ice Shard is for priority, even with the speed boost you have to worry about fighting type pokemon messing you up.
Fighting, Fire or Psychic typed Hidden Power can be used. Fighting and Fire are for certain Steels like Ferrothorn and Skarmory whereas Psychic is just for pesky fighting types.
Vanilluxe also gets Light Screen, Toxic, Hail, Taunt, and Acid Armor.
I think it would work well with some investment in defense and special defense along with some investment in special attack and speed. Not good at that sort of thing, but I know this guy has potential, limited potential but potential nontheless.
71/95/85/110/95/79
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Vanilluxe_(Pok%C3%A9mon)
Its defenses may be mediocre, but its Attack is decent and its Special attack is good. It gets a stab priority move, a move that doubles its speed, a stab ice beam and Ice Body. I think that its worth mentioning. I do realize as a pure ice type with a very limited movepool most people have overlooked this guy thinking he sucked, but he would work great in a hail team and survives relatively well as a slightly defensive sweeper in or out of hail.
Ability: Ice Body
Item: Expert Belt/Life Orb.
- Ice Beam/Frost Breath/Blizzard
- Autotomize
- Ice Shard
- Hidden Power Fighting/Fire/Psychic
Frost Breath is the base 40 special move that ALWAYS crits, which breaks through screens and special defense raises. Ice Beam can be used over it for more power. Blizzard is for if you are playing Vanilluxe in Hail. This goes great with his Ice Body ability.
Expert Belt is the item of choice for Vanilluxe because it makes you more likely to pick off some fighting type pokemon with a Hidden Power Psychic, some Steels with Fire/Fighting etc., I think it works better than leftovers because you need the slight power boost. Life Orb can be used over Expert Belt if you wish to power up all of his moves rather than just the super effective ones.
Autotomize doubles speed but halves your weight, which isnt a problem persay because you don't have to worry about Aggrons in OU generally. Ice Shard is for priority, even with the speed boost you have to worry about fighting type pokemon messing you up.
Fighting, Fire or Psychic typed Hidden Power can be used. Fighting and Fire are for certain Steels like Ferrothorn and Skarmory whereas Psychic is just for pesky fighting types.
Vanilluxe also gets Light Screen, Toxic, Hail, Taunt, and Acid Armor.
I think it would work well with some investment in defense and special defense along with some investment in special attack and speed. Not good at that sort of thing, but I know this guy has potential, limited potential but potential nontheless.
No, it's not worth talking about. It's too slow, not strong enough, has an overall terrible offensive movepool (and I mean terrible, it doesn't get a single non-ice or normal offensive move worth using), and is mono-ice typed, which is basically the worst defensive typing in the game.
No, just no.
No, just no.
Honestly, without a move to boost its Special Attack and/or Attack, I don't think Vanilluxe will ever have any luck in OU... Especially considering it's plagued by that terrible pure Ice typing. With common weaknesses and only one resistance, unexceptional defenses, and lame Speed that requires a boost, there's pretty much no way Vanilluxe can succeed in OU... even in Hail. It really doesn't have the defenses to utilize Ice Body, and I'd rather just use Glaceon for a high-powered STAB Blizzard/Ice Beam (not to mention, Glaceon also gets Ice Body... in fact, its defenses are actually quite good, yet it's still held down to UU because of its terrible typing).
It's cute though.
-Zane
Edit: Ninja'd by Seven Deadly Sins. ): Oh, so how about that Exeggutor analysis? :D
More Edit: Oh. I completely forgot... Kyurem says hi.
On the topic of Chlorophyll sweepres, I'd like to bring back up Victreebell. The access of Weather Ball and Drought Ninetales give him a niche in defeating Ferrothorn without opting for Hidden Power Fire, something the likes of Venasaur and Shiftry have to do. It also has access to a nice support movepool, Growth, and Sleep Powder. It also isn't outclassed by Venasaur thanks to its higher offensive stats and access to priority in the form of Sucker Punch. It can also run a support set with Stockpile, Knock Off, a status move, and Synthesis. Drought Ninetales really gave it a nice niche, so I think it can hold its own in OU.
