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What do you think is the most underrated Pokemon in OU? (Read the OP and Post #215)

I really disagree with just looking purely at usage stats to show how a Pokemon is underrated. Just because some people underestimate how much of an impact Scizor can have when put on a team, doesn't mean it's underrated. They can still recognize Scizor as a threat when it's used on another team.

I'll use a Pokemon I believe myself to be underrated as an example. Zoroark's illusion ability makes it a very useful teammate when used correctly, and can even sweep a weakened team with its Nasty Plot set very easily. Most players ignore this. I have another comment explaining this in greater detail in this thread.

However, when it comes to Scizor, it's a great Pokemon. Everybody knows that, except for maybe new players who don't have a great knowledge of the metagame. When anyone sees Scizor in combat, they know it means business. So, with that in mind, I really don't think Scizor could even come close to underrated.

Now, why don't we stop debating Myzozoa's post?
 
Swamp-Rocket said:
I'm not being silly, its just that Myzozoa stated that "...I would argue that Scizor, as one of 2 or 3 Steel types that offensive teams typically find useful, should actually be on every offensive team and perhaps some stall teams." And that is why Tyranitar and Politoed were included - some members aren't used together, which prevents them from achieving a better statistic, in case anyone thought of them as a whole underrated. It was a bad example, but it shows that not every team is able to use great Pokemon due to what they bring or one thing they lack.

Not by any means are you or Myzozoa wrong, though. But some teams don't use Scizor, like a lot of Rain Stall. I hate pointing out the 1337 statistics, but Scizor has a pretty dang high usage there (around the 40% stated here), and although Scizor doesn't have the true statistic, people recognize what it does enough for me to argue that, Scizor isn't necesarily underrated.

And on the lines of Excadrill, he was really feared, but when he was banned, he was below 10% usage iirc..
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The point with Excadrill was even though he only ran one main set, he was still so powerful he was banned; the number of sets something can run has little to do with how good it is; versatility is a nice asset, but it won't make up for poor stats, typing or abilities.

The Politoed/T-Tar argument is still falling flat. As I said before, if something can't synergies well with other important pokemon, that indirectly makes it worse. That's part of the reason I would say the weather starters aren't underrated. Adaptability (the word, not ability) is part of Scizor's allure; he can fit on virtually any team. He operates fine with no team support while scouting, wall breaking, and even slipping into a late-game sweeping role in a pinch. As for Rain stall, even those teams can benefit from Scizor. His raw power and U-Turn keeps momentum on the players side while racking up hazard damage, and he's great for taking down the opponent's last pokemon.

Let me ask you this: do you agree that something with a high usage statistic can be underrated? If so, which one(s)?

LucaroarkZ said:
I really disagree with just looking purely at usage stats to show how a Pokemon is underrated. Just because some people underestimate how much of an impact Scizor can have when put on a team, doesn't mean it's underrated. They can still recognize Scizor as a threat when it's used on another team.
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But things can be different intervals of "threatening". Just because you realize something is a threat doesn't mean you realize how threatening it is. If you underestimate how dangerous something is, it's underrated. That's practically the definition of the word.
 
2sly4u said:
But things can be different intervals of "threatening". Just because you realize something is a threat doesn't mean you realize how threatening it is. If you underestimate how dangerous something is, it's underrated. That's practically the definition of the word.
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This can apply to some things, like Tornadus and Volcarona, that are recognized as threatening but don't see much use regardless of their enormous power. However, this really can't be applied to Scizor, as every successful team in the current metagame prepares for Scizor. Yes, it's a huge threat. Yes, it can fit on virtually any team type. That's why it sees so much usage. Calling it underrated is ridiculous, as people know exactly how dangerous Scizor is and exactly what roles it can and will be used in.

Anyway, so that I actually contribute to the thread or w/e:
205.gif

Forryboss@Lefties
252 HP/ 176 Def/ 80 spA
-Rapid Spin
-Rocks/Spikes/Tspikes
-Volt Switch
-HP Ice
Forretress as a pokemon is really not underrated at all- In my opinion, Gyro Ball Forry and multihazard sets see way, way more use than they deserve, as they really don't do their job well enough in this metagame. This little guy might look like a derpy forretress with a gimmicky fourth slot, but it's actually the best set I've used on him by far, and easily my favorite spinner in OU. The given spread 2hkos gliscor while taking pretty much nothing from him even after a couple SDs, while also murderfesting Nite/Mence locked into outrage. Since a huge issue with forry is that without recovery he doesn't really wall anything, HP is really cool because it allows forry to outright kill dangerous threats instead of just being dead weight/setup bait. Slow volt switch with a little power behind it is also really helpful against stuff like gyarados. HP Ice forry can do what forretress is supposed to do by spinning away and setting up hazards, but he can maintain momentum and stop dangerous threats, letting him fit in on defensive and offensive teams alike.
 
The Truth said:
This can apply to some things, like Tornadus and Volcarona, that are recognized as threatening but don't see much use regardless of their enormous power. However, this really can't be applied to Scizor, as every successful team in the current metagame prepares for Scizor. Yes, it's a huge threat. Yes, it can fit on virtually any team type. That's why it sees so much usage. Calling it underrated is ridiculous, as people know exactly how dangerous Scizor is and exactly what roles it can and will be used in.
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Yes it sees a lot of usage, but it's good enough that it could see more. There's a reason its 1337 usage is so much higher than its overall usage. People know he's great, but don't realize how totally dominant he is, and the most successful teams show that by using him at a significantly higher rate. It's not ridiculous at all. This really isn't just about Scizor though; what I've been trying to say is that ANY pokemon can be popular and still underrated.

Also, nice Forry set.
 
Hello everyone! Well I am certainly glad this thread has started some invigorating discussion and I feel compelled to join in! But first...

LucaroarkZ said:
Now, why don't we stop debating Myzozoa's post?
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I feel like I'm mini-modding here but please don't do that :( There is no harm being done by this discussion at all (or anyone starting flame wars) and it is the kind of thing I wanted to get out of my post. If you don't like the discussion feel free to ignore it and wait for other people to stop discussing so everyone has a chance. Now onto the concept of Myzozoa's post...

You could see Myzozoa's point from two perpectives. Let's first see it in the confines of this thread's definition of underrated:

A Pokemon is underrated if it provides a value, a characteristic, and/or a service to a team that is not recognized by the majority of players. It is this characteristic that has to benefit a team. This characteristic does not necessarily have to be unique to that Pokemon, but adds to its value if it can not be done by others as easily.
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So by the standard set upon in the original post, Scizor is not underrated. Scizor is good and provides a lot of utility to a team, especially its CB set. I would say no one in this community doubts that. However, the widely held opinion also demonstrates another thing, people do recognize Scizor's attributes. People (the majority of them) do recognize what Scizor characteristics are and how they do benefit a team. Thus, it is definitely not something underrated. Correlate that to this question: When asked "How would you rate Scizor in the OU metagame, in terms of regard (high, low, no regard, slightly)?" the majority of players would respond with "high regard".

If we go beyond the bounds of this thread, I can understand Myzozoa's position. How much of a force can a Pokemon exert within a metagame where even the high regard isn't "good enough"? Well, I think the best examples that can be provided are DPP era Garchomp and Kyorgre/Arceus in Ubers. These Pokemon are so good that to relegate them as not having a spot on your team is the "wrong thing" to do; its a mistake. Essentially, not even automatically carrying one on the team puts you in position of underrating its potential.

However at the end of the day, all these judgements on what's overrated and underrated is what is held by all the players in the metagame. When 1/3 of the time you encounter this Pokemon and nearly all teams account for it, it is a sign that the players of the metagame have taken into account how good a Poke is for and against their team.

______________________________________________

Anyway, I hope to organize this thread by including all the Pokemon and sets submitted into a singular, cohesive post due to the increased amount of time with finals over. This will make navigating the suggestions provided and the reasons given much easier. I will step up my participation in here so watch out for some explanations!
 
Twins said:
Mienshao is a beast. The combination of Fake Out+U-Turn+Regenerator is just devastating, allowing you to scout and do free damage every time you switch in.
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Under certain circumstances, that is not true. I switched a Ferrothorn into a Fake Out. the Fake Out did about 5% to my Ferrothorn. The Mienshao, however, took 23% from Iron Barbs and LO. Lefties pretty much took care of the 5% I lost.
 
TyranitarAbuser said:
Under certain circumstances, that is not true. I switched a Ferrothorn into a Fake Out. the Fake Out did about 5% to my Ferrothorn. The Mienshao, however, took 23% from Iron Barbs and LO. Lefties pretty much took care of the 5% I lost.
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O.k, fine, and now you are forced to switch out for fear of HJK unless you run Protect. Mienshao on the other hand, can just switch out, and be back to full health so you didn't really win anything. The point he was making was that Mienshao is an excellent scout, that doesn't really care too much about Entry hazards, or Life Orb weakening it, since the moment it switches out it heals most of the residual damage it took. Saying "look at my Ferrothorn, took a Fake Out whoo" doesn't really say that Mienshao is a poor scout, especially now that your opponent has just scouted your response to Ferrothorn, and might throw out a HJK next time to catch your Ferrothorn switching in getting a KO.
 
I didn't think I was going to cause so much controversy when I posted. I think I should attend to one or two things.

First, some have mentioned that every good team prepares for Scizor. This is partly true, few teams straight out lose to CB or SD Scizor. But because of U-turn it's not as simple as saying 'I'm prepared for Scizor, pokemon X on my team beats Scizor.' Scizor U-turns out of your counter or Pursuits what's switching out. If I have a layer of hazards up, my Scizor is going to be 'beating' your team no matter what preparation you have. Unless your team has not a single pokemon that Scizor can take advantage of, Scizor is at the very least going to gain me momentum and maximize the advantage of having an early game entry hazard plan (which all offensive teams ought to).

I could expand upon why I think Scizor is so good right now. I could get into specific intricacies of how Scizor breaks down teams and why it's so affective. But it boils down to two things:

1. The previously stated momentum advantage it provides and it's general utility.
2. The state of the metagame which makes it very, very difficult to include more than one steel type on an offensive team. Scizor has the most utility (versatility and wide ranging function) out of all offensive steel types. I cannot stress this enough: it is extremely difficult to play with 2 steel types on offensive team in this metagame, in my own experience. There is so little room and so much to cover.

An argument could be made that if Steel typing is so important and affective, and offense cannot afford to run enough Steels, users should stop using offense. I would argue then that the more Stall and Balance that is used, the better Scizor is. It gets to take advantage of more slow and powerless pokemon to abuse U-turn on. It's almost as if you cannot prepare for Scizor in a meaningful way.

This concludes my specific investigation into Scizor and why I think it should be even more popular than it is. I want to point out that Scizor is actually a very, very good check for itself just as an aside.

Others have very wisely suggested that my criterion for what it is to be 'underrated' is different than theirs. I agree: when I say something is underrated I mean that it is used less than I think it ought to be used, regardless of how much it actually is used.

This is different than a pokemon that is overlooked, or which has some function that is unrecognized by many players. And I think this is a false pretense, at least partly: Smogon has many methodical users who use search engines and such resources to find pokemon that can do uncommon things. They are very creative and if there is a pokemon that can do something significant, it is very likely (imo) that someone has discussed it on IRC. At that point it gets some testing by someone, and we find out whether it's any good or not. The undiscovered gem may be a myth at this point in BW. Many hours have been devoted to learning the games secrets, and 99.9% of effective move-sets and strategies are known and recorded, and many ineffective ones are well documented as well.

I was talking with someone the other day about an item that I never heard of called Ring Target. It causes the bearer to lose all immunities, so if you Trick it onto a Ghost you could Rapid Spin against it. Trick it on to a Ground type and it could be hit by Electric-typed moves. Such an item can only be used effectively by a very special pokemon, like Starmie perhaps. I think that it is NEVER used. A literally unused strategy at this point. It is very inefficient and circumstantial, but still I think it may be underrated. It may have a role on a team that cannot afford to ever miss a rapid spin, such a team would need an extraordinarily reliable rapid spinner, and Trick-Ring Target Starmie may be such a pokemon. Maybe it is only good on one type of team, but instead of seeing 0% Ring Target Starmie usage, I think perhaps .1-1% of Starmie could be effective users of the strategy. Thus it is currently underrated in my estimations because it is used less than I think it ought to be.
 
I think Infernape is underused. with 104 offenses, 108 speed its great for many things. with overheat it makes a great mixed attacker. It has priority in mach punch and vacuum wave. It can be used on volturn teams because it has u-turn. Both nasty plot and swords dance. it even randomly has stealth rock. Despite all these uses i hardly ever see an infernape in PO.
 
I have to say nidoking. He is an absolute monster, his coverage hits pretty much everything in the for high/se damage except the pink blobs but if they are too much of a problem he can easily go mixed. The amazing thing about Nidoking is that he hits pretty much all the weather inducers/abuser for SE damage so he really is a force to be reckoned with. plus he gets sheer force that makes his moves pack an enormous punch. He is even a status absorber because thunder wave and poison don't affect him while burn doesn't hurt him too much unless he is going mixed. He can also be fitted onto any weather, preferably hail or rain. His most effective set would have to be

Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Ice Beam/ Blizzard
- Thunderbolt/ Thunder
- Earth Power
- Flamethrower/ Fire Blast

Earth Power goes to insane levels after sheer force, STAB and LO while not taking any recoil. Depending on the weather you can use Thunder or Blizzard which both get the Sheer Force and LO boost. The only downside of Nidoking is that he is a tad slow for the OU meta but with correct team support he can be a monster. If the blobs are giving you too much trouble he can easily go mixed because he actually has a higher base attack. He can be just as devastating with a mixed set however i prefer the better coverage but a set like

Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 80 Atk / 176 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Ice Beam/ Blizzard
- Thunderbolt/ Thunder
- Rock Slide/ Rock Smash
- Bulldoze

can sweep easier. Nidoking is incredibly versatile and very underrated.
 
You're not getting past Blissey and Chansey anytime soon with Bulldoze and Rock Smash, though. It's better to just go all-out special and have something that can take advantage of them.
 
CrackinSkulls said:
Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 80 Atk / 176 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Ice Beam/ Blizzard
- Thunderbolt/ Thunder
- Rock Slide/ Rock Smash
- Bulldoze

can sweep easier. Nidoking is incredibly versatile and very underrated.
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Sheer Force Bulldoze is only 78 power. You'd be much better off with Earthquake if you want to go mixed, losing LO recoil isn't worth the drop in power. And Rock Smash isn't worth much either.
 
I hate to be the guy, but someone has to point it out. Rock smash and bulldoze are terrible moves even with a sheer force boost. Bulldoze only gets up to 78 power (60 * 1.3) and rock smash to 53 power (40 * 1.3). Earthquake and brick break are better moves.

Speaking of brick break and earthquake, earthquake has the same base power (100 * 1.5=150) as a super effective brick break (75 * 2=150). The only pokemon in OU that is quadruple weak to fighting is Tyranitar, which is weak to earthquake and once again takes the same damage from (75*4=300, 100*1.5*=300).
 
Scarfwynaut said:
I hate to be the guy, but someone has to point it out. Rock smash and bulldoze are terrible moves even with a sheer force boost. Bulldoze only gets up to 78 power (60 * 1.3) and rock smash to 53 power (40 * 1.3). Earthquake and brick break are better moves.

Speaking of brick break and earthquake, earthquake has the same base power (100 * 1.5=150) as a super effective brick break (75 * 2=150). The only pokemon in OU that is quadruple weak to fighting is Tyranitar, which is weak to earthquake and once again takes the same damage from (75*4=300, 100*1.5*=300).
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I hate to be that guy, but you just repeated exactly what was said over 7-10 minutes ago


Nidoking @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Sp
Nature: Timid
-Thunder Bolt
-Ice Beam
-Fire Blast
-Earth Power

Excellent revenge killer for any team that has a Physical Attacker and Sheer Force + Fire Blast in the Sun? Yes please. He is always on my Sun Teams and all around my favorite pokemon
 
Slowking is really underrated. Though It looks like a bad Slowbro, it's special bulk is simply amazing and helps hail team tremendously by tankig Fire and Fighting type attacks. Slowbro may seem like a better bet, But Slowking can also take hits like Draco Meteor from Latios, as well as not being 2HKOed by unboosted Terrakion so Its mixed wall set is pretty amazing. The weakness to voltturn is really annoying though. Offensively Slowking destroys as well. With the Sam special attack as Starmie backed by the coveted Nasty Plot, not much can switch into a set of Surf, Psyshock, and Focus Blast. It also has regenerator, so even though it won't be sweeping, it can keep coming back in while regaining health to break through the opponent's cores. Just my thoughts on a good pokemon. Oh and don't use Specs Slowking. Oh and Slowling like Slowbro has a sick movepool with Stuff like Fire Blast an Grass Knot.
 
voodoo pimp said:
Sheer Force Bulldoze is only 78 power. You'd be much better off with Earthquake if you want to go mixed, losing LO recoil isn't worth the drop in power. And Rock Smash isn't worth much either.
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I never said you had to i just said he has the option to. I just put that there because some people like to take advantage of the no LO recoil.
 
CrackinSkulls said:
Just wondering may i'm wrong but doesn't tentacruel outclass slowking?
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Tentacruel and Slowking are very different and the only two things they really have in common as they are part water type and have phenomenal special defense. Tentacruel works more as a support mon, spinning away hazards and setting up T-spikes, while SLowking is more of a dedicated speical wall who can also pose a threat offensively and slowking has a recovery move unlike tentacruel who is set up fodder for many things with its measly base 80 SpA
 
Ikaros said:
tentacruel cant take psychic hits so i guess you can say theyre for different situations. However in most situations slowking is outclassed
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thats hardly a valid argument. As I said they both play much different roles and their typing and weaknnesses have very little to do with it. Slowking may seem outclassed as a special wall, but it does have a nice SpA and can hit things hard too. Obviously Slowking isn't the best mon around, but thats why this thread is labeled as underrated pokemon
 
ThunderBlunder said:
thats hardly a valid argument. As I said they both play much different roles and their typing and weaknnesses have very little to do with it. Slowking may seem outclassed as a special wall, but it does have a nice SpA and can hit things hard too. Obviously Slowking isn't the best mon around, but thats why this thread is labeled as underrated pokemon
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no i completely agree with what you said. i was just trying to show how you really use tenta and slow for different situations. their typing and uses are different making them hard to tell which one is better. tentacruel tends to get used more because it has a more important use on rain teams
 
Easily Stoutland

Stoutland @ Choice Band
EVs: 4 HP/252 Attack/252 Speed
Nature: Adamant
-Frustration
-Pursuit
-Fire Fang
-Wild Charge

After SR, it can revenge a lot of dangerous things. Prominent pokemon that aren't 2HKO'd by Frustration are Tyranitar, Scizor, Terrakion, Skarmory, Jellicent, Jirachi, Ferrothorn, and Heatran. Toxic Spikes take care of Tyranitar and Terrakion while SR and Spikes wear down everything except Skarmory. Most of these pokemon also check Latias, so with HP Fire, it can help to break down a few of those counters. It's really underrated how easily he revenges most shit and how potently hazards can aid his sweeps. Only Jolly Scarf Terrakion and Timid Scarf Lati@s outspeed and most priority, even +2'd and banded, does less than half of his health. He does require a team built around him though since he's not a "slap on your team and go" type of poke but I still believe he's sorely underrated.
 
I can attest to how good Stoutland is. As a user of it on my sand team, it is a really good revenge killer. However, when it comes to Stoutland vs. Terrakion, Stoutland will not win. It really needs a partner that can handle Terrakion (i.e. Scizor).
 
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