What?! Heracross is a "disappointment" of D/P?

[JLei2k]

Hera isn't bad. Just outclassed completely at it's 2 best sets. As a Choice Bander there is very little reason you'd take it over Scizor and as an SD'r you'd take Lucario almost every time. The only set it's not outclassed by those 2 is the Scarf set but it's not as good as it's 2 best sets and it's not fast enough to be a team's dedicated revenge killer with the DD Mence flying around (you pick Scizor to check it because of Bullet Punch).

There are very few situations where you put Hera on your team and you can say Scizor or Lucario don't do that better and cover more things.

 

[Scofield]

What I don't get is that the article is called "disappointments in dp" when heracross wasn't really a disappointment until dpp. For the first year or so of dp, heracross was a monster, ripping through teams. Once plat hit and scizor got bp was when heracross usage started to plummet iirc. I used hera in dp and it quite easily was amazing, tearing through any non gliscor team.

EDIT: Oh yeah, rotom forms really hurt too!

 

[Slice]

I remember when hera used to rip through teams when played correctly. Choice cross destroyed cresselia and without gliscor, posed a threat.

Agreeing with scofield, until scizor got bullet punch, hera was fine and it's usage on wifi and shoddy alike decreased.

However, now its just outclassed by SD lucario (which is a beast) and scizor who is another beast and it's usage increased after garchomp left.

 

[blasphemy1]

What I don't get is that the article is called "disappointments in dp" when heracross wasn't really a disappointment until dpp. For the first year or so of dp, heracross was a monster, ripping through teams. Once plat hit and scizor got bp was when heracross usage started to plummet iirc. I used hera in dp and it quite easily was amazing, tearing through any non gliscor team.

Yes, because until late DPP, players weren't using Gliscor correctly, and thus chose other physical walls who do the job better(Hippowdon, Skarmory) instead. Now, Gliscor is one of the most potent threats, using his great bulk, which means that players will choose him over Hippowdon, since he can sweep as well as check Lucario. Heracross was never any better than he was right now, people were just figuring out the metagame and then some pokemon received improvements in Pt.

 

[Mr.E]

I was more disappointed in the mention of Dusknoir than anything else. It lacks a specialized purpose, which causes may people to glance over it when team-building, but its extreme versatility, few weaknesses, and strong general sturdiness make it easy to plug into most any team that can't really decide what else to use. It's still a pretty good pokemon, plus I don't recall Dusknoir ever being particularly hyped to begin with. :/ It's kinda like Blissey was for Chansey. "Oh, it's a slightly better version of everyone's favorite special sponge." Defensive pokemon don't generate much hype.

Should've listed Porygon-Z instead.

 

[Misa]

Should've listed Porygon-Z instead.

Well with base 135 SpA including Adaptability Porygon-Z does an enormous damage to things already in the standard tier, so I don't think it's really overrated. However, it does seem to be more overrated than let's say: Electrivire? The reason I say this is that while Porygon-Z has a massive SpA, Porygon-Z's main STAB is resisted by a boatload of pokemon, such as Rock, Steels, and Ghost-types (especially Gengar and Spiritomb). At least Electrivire has more coverage as well as useful ability to take advantage of.

Regarding to Heracross, since people are saying that Lucario completely outclasses Heracross in most ways, is there a chance that Heracross might drop down to UU? The most common reason that some Pokemon drop down to UU (Dugtrio, Donphan) is that other pokemon are used instead. Since Heracross is obviously suffering from being outclassed by Lucario, there might be a chance that Heracross might be moved down to the Underused metagame. Seeing that priority doesn't seem to be much of a dominating factor in the UU metagame, maybe Heracross can finally start doing some damage instead.

Also, I would probably suggest Dragonite as a disappointment since Salamence seems to outclass Dragonite most of the time.

 

[Orcelot005]

Well with base 135 SpA including Adaptability Porygon-Z does an enormous damage to things already in the standard tier, so I don't think it's really overrated. However, it does seem to be more overrated than let's say: Electrivire? The reason I say this is that while Porygon-Z has a massive SpA, Porygon-Z's main STAB is resisted by a boatload of pokemon, such as Rock, Steels, and Ghost-types (especially Gengar and Spiritomb). At least Electrivire has more coverage as well as useful ability to take advantage of.

Regarding to Heracross, since people are saying that Lucario completely outclasses Heracross in most ways, is there a chance that Heracross might drop down to UU? The most common reason that some Pokemon drop down to UU (Dugtrio, Donphan) is that other pokemon are used instead. Since Heracross is obviously suffering from being outclassed by Lucario, there might be a chance that Heracross might be moved down to the Underused metagame. Seeing that priority doesn't seem to be much of a dominating factor in the UU metagame, maybe Heracross can finally start doing some damage instead.

Also, I would probably suggest Dragonite as a disappointment since Salamence seems to outclass Dragonite most of the time.

Are you serious? Priority moves are everywhere in UU.

 

[LoveDensity]

In D/P.. I loved Heracross! I put it in one of my teams and got up to #2 in leaderboard. Close Combat pretty much ohkos or 2ohkos anything that doesn't resist it.. But yea.. after the downfall of Pokemon like Garchomp(Banned,) Cresselia(Usage,) etc... the metagame shifted to more fast pace and Heracross couldn't really keep up . In addition to that, Platnium arrived and gave us new moves to Pokemon like Scizor.. that rendered Heracross even further.

 

[Misa]

Are you serious? Priority moves are everywhere in UU.

Nothing that seems to be as lethal as Scizor's Bullet Punch. Sure Ambipom's Fake Out can hurt but there are enough Steel-Types to prevent that.

 

[dekzeh]

Nothing that seems to be as lethal as Scizor's Bullet Punch. Sure Ambipom's Fake Out can hurt but there are enough Steel-Types to prevent that.

Honchkrow and Absol Sucker Punches are stronger then Scizor's Bullet Punch, and there's also Azumarill's Aqua Jet.

Not to mention OU has more steels then UU to take those Bullet Punches.

 

[Misa]

Honchkrow and Absol Sucker Punches are stronger then Scizor's Bullet Punch

Heracross resists Sucker Punches.

 

[Raikaria]

Heracross was one of the more potent threats in R/S/E times. Now, in D/P, the advent of Lucario lowered his useage, as Lucario performed better as both a Choice Bander, and a Swords Dancer (As we all know and fear the SD Lucario set, even in Platinum) Sure, there was Choice Scarf, but there are also better pokemon to use it with, especially as if Heracross is locked, you can bring in something that resists one of the STABS, not hard, with all the steels and Ghosts in OU, with little danger, due to the lack of a boosting item. Scarftran didn't help either, as he could come in on Megahorn, and OHKO.

Platinum came out, and ruined Scarfed Heracross. Scizor boasted better typing, better defences, and Technician and STAB Boosted Choice Banded Bullet Punches, which, despite the usual base 40 power, overpower anything Scarf Heracross could use, and are a priority move, meaning that faster pokemon wouldn't get a say in, something Scarfed Heracross didn't have, as faster scarfers / speed boosted pokemon would still outrun him.

Right now, Heracross is either a worse Lucario, or a worse Scizor, dependant on the set. CB Scizor outclasses both CB Hera, and Scarf Hera, while Swords Dance, is outclassed by Scizor... and Lucario to some extent.

That's why he's a dissapointment, despite Choice Scarf giving him more options, he's fallen almost into UU now, from the height he was in in RSE.

 

[Erazor]

Heracross resists Sucker Punches.

Well, a +2 Sucker Punch from Absol does 99% minimum to min/min Blaziken. Blaziken's 80/70 defenses are quite similar to Heracross' 80/75, so I'd say Heracross doesn't like taking Sucker Punchers.

 

[gvmgvm40]

Problem with Heracross is A)Lucario outclasses it as a fighting type, with the ability to outrun neutral base 100s, much more useful resistances, priority, etc. B)Scizor outclasses it as a fighting type, with higher base attack, powerful priority, more useful resistances(dragon is huge here), better defense, and most importantly, U-Turn, which is absent from Heracross's learnpool. C)Rotom-H is commonly used on shoddy battle and other battle simulators, who is a huge threat to Heracross with resistances to both STABs, and Overheat. There are just way too many issues with Heracross that can't even be mentioned due to length. I was never a fan of Heracross, which is why I don't see why he was hyped so much in the transition from advance to DP, and that lame excuse of 2HKOing Skarmory with a physical move can be said by way too many pokemon anyways.

Except, you know, Scizor isn't a fightning type.

 

[Tagrineth]

Except, you know, Scizor isn't a fightning type.

That's the sad part. Scizor uses Superpower, after all..

 

[thebattleax]

Many of the top popular Pokemon today can check him. The recent addition of Latias, Rotom-heat, and, in Ubers, Shaymin-S, hurts his reputation even more. The only new addition he can somewhat counter is Scizor, and that's only with a boosting set. -1 Heracross versus 2 Scizor bullet punches=dead bug.

So far, I have only remembered one time that I have seen Heracross on the opponents team. I haven't seen Cresselia THAT much, perhaps 3 times recently, but still, Cressy is quite uncommon.

 

[MetaNite]

(I am very surprised Porygon-Z wasn't in that article, as I think it deserved that spot much more than Heracross. 'OHKO BLISSEY WITH A SPECIAL ATTACK!!!').

I can pretty much agree with the consensus here that Lucario and Scizor are a bit more potent in the metagame today. Both have priority to make up for their subpar Speed, but neither are quite as powerful as Heracross. Swords Dance Heracross although may often be outclassed by Lucario is a true monster against the standard stall team of today. Having a higher attack stat, and actually resisting Earthquake rather than being weak to it like Lucario, Heracross can even get past the giant physical wall that is Hippowdon. Even after an Intimidate from Gyarados, a +1 Stone Edge is going to hurt the water snake really hard. And with decent Special Defense and Guts, Rotom-A is going to have trouble getting past Heracross as well.

Heracross' other niche is its ability to revenge kill Psychic-types such as Latias, Cresselia, and Celebi, but most of these Pokemon (bar Latias) have experienced a huge fall from grace, and as such so has Heracross. 'When the rabbit leaves, the Lynx will follow'.

The main reason I think Heracross usage is quite low is because of the effect Fire-type attack users have on the metagame. With Scizor and/or Lucario on just about every other team, people can't afford to add an additional weakness to Fire-type attacks, as the prominent threat of Choice Scarf Heatran and even Infernape remains. The other reason Heracross has become 'nerfed' is once again Scizor's fault. Now that Scizor has acquired Bullet Punch, Heracross will no longer be lasting very long at all, Bullet Punch stripping at least 70% of its health, an easy OHKO after a Close Combat defense drop. This was also the fall for many many other Pokemon in DPP, such as Gallade, Porygon-Z, Weavile (who also deserves more love), Gengar (who is still struggling to make ends meet), Azelf (who now runs around with Focus Sash), Aerodactyl, Alakazam, Roserade, Dugtrio, and many others. Any defensively troubled Pokemon has really taken a huge beating, while those who resist Bullet Punch continue to thrive, Lucario, Infernape, Jolteon. Quite unfortunately, Heracross is one of those Pokemon. Rotom-H and Overheat certainly did Heracross no favors as well. Most people today use Choiced Heracross (try Life Orb!), which gives Rotom-H more oppurtunities to come in and toast something.

I also certainly agree with Scofield, in saying that prior Scizor and Rotom-H appearance Heracross was a huge threat to the metagame. Any team without Gliscor was in for a rude awakening.

As far as what Heracross has to look forward to, there is always an evolution possibility in generation 5. (Poor Pinsir).

 

[pkmn1000]

Wow at this rate i cant wait to beable to use heracross in UU. banded megahorns should hurt almost as much as yanmegas bug buzzes.

 

[Alchemator]

Wow at this rate i cant wait to beable to use heracross in UU. banded megahorns should hurt almost as much as yanmegas bug buzzes.

They would actually hurt SO MUCH more due to a base 125 attack stat and base 125 STAB bug attack in Megahorn, with the possibilities of soaking up a burn which would send it to SKY HIGH Levels!

Or Registeel switches in.

 

[Zog]

Lol, it's interesting how ALL 6 of those used to be popular back in early D/P.

And yeah Heracross is magnificently cool. I've had quite a few kabuto mushi myself, though no decent ones. I only have a live female atm. Heracross's kabuto-ness is one reason why I always consider him for teams.

 

[darkseeker4]

Or Registeel switches in.

ANd take a close combat off a sky high attack stat I dont think even the steel beast can survive such an onslaught If it does end up in UU it will be to powerful and will be sent to BL!

 

[Alchemator]

ANd take a close combat off a sky high attack stat I dont think even the steel beast can survive such an onslaught If it does end up in UU it will be to powerful and will be sent to BL!

I was under the assumption it was choiced and thus locked onto Megahorn. And the chances of getting a Guts boost would be minimal - Status will almost cease altogether in UU with the publicity it would get

 

[darkseeker4]

I was under the assumption it was choiced and thus locked onto Megahorn. And the chances of getting a Guts boost would be minimal - Status will almost cease altogether in UU with the publicity it would get

Will there is T-spikes and will-o-wisp but yeah people can predict you know.Still a non-status banded hera is a force to be reckoned with.

 

[Elevator Music]

I'm sure I'm drifting dangerously close to off-topic with this post but for all the people saying "Dragonite/Porygon-Z/blahblah" should be a disappointment not Heracross/Dusknoir/Weakvile/etc and then using the reasoning that its outclassed by <pokemon> or whatever, keep in mind that actual power isn't just what determines whether or not something lives up to its expectations, percieved power is. So while Dragonite may (or may not) be a shittier pokemon than Heracross, that is irrelevant as people already KNEW that Dragonite wouldn't be as good as Salamence, while they thought everything and their mother was Heracross weak.

Still I'd have to agree with Scofield that Heracross really wasn't much of a disappointment in dp, just that dpp really fucked it over.

 

[Witnessed]

I'm sure I'm drifting dangerously close to off-topic with this post but for all the people saying "Dragonite/Porygon-Z/blahblah" should be a disappointment not Heracross/Dusknoir/Weakvile/etc and then using the reasoning that its outclassed by <pokemon> or whatever, keep in mind that actual power isn't just what determines whether or not something lives up to its expectations, percieved power is.

Exactly, a Pokemon with 120 base attack can be outclassed by a Pokemon with 90 base attack, because if Pokemon A has a small movepool, while Pokemon B has a massive movepool, and possibly boosting moves.