What is uber?

[Hipmonlee]

This issue is more complicated than the total number of useable pokemon though. Like maybe you could end up with a ruleset where all pokemon are viable, but only as the 6th pokemon on a team with 5 pokemon that are identical on every single team.

To be honest, this is what I am afraid of when I look at the pokemon you are suggesting to allow. When you have a small number of pokemon that by every objective measure are stronger than all the others, I dont think testing is necessary.

Basically, if you want to change the tiers I think you are going to have to try harder. You have tested Ubers and found it wanting, and now want to change OU to a metagame you havent tried. At this stage, with the current tiers entrenched nobody really wants to do this. You are going to have to test until you strike upon ballance, then come back and make your arguments.

Also your arguments about Garchomp are all so true. It has been tested, and I cant believe that anyone really feels that it isnt unbalanced. Yet it is still allowed. Like Celebi in advance, Curselax in GSC. People dont want balance as much as they want status quo.

Have a nice day.

 

[Mekkah]

We start out with Unown and Ditto. Now virtually any Pokemon we add will be overpowering in such an environment. Such an example may appear absurd, but it is what you are suggesting, and it's possible that similar situations would arise with more Pokemon allowed.

Obviously we can skip the NU and UU sections since they have a balanced metagame of their own.

Starting with Unown and Ditto and keeping it at that would be balanced, but not as diverse as the metagame we "used to have" (our metagame would be more diverse even if it had 3 Pokemon dominating, and we have like 15). So even if this was our most balanced option, it would be very boring, it wouldn't be possible to enforce Species Clause and we'd be better off adding something, getting some inbalance then keep on adding until we feel it is balanced again.

No offense, I think you're a smart guy, but I think you misunderstood what I wanted to bring across: working from the bottom is easier than from above. I can compare it to making a nice team I'm satisfied with: I find starting from scratch a lot more easy than substituting moves/Pokemon/items/EVs because it's easy to just say "well if you do that you're just weak to Garchomp".

 

[Lyfsaho]

By allowing the pokemon you list in the OU metagame, you restrict it more than you expand it. Niche pokemon who currently enjoy some use (list below) will be completely edged out and sent UU... which will in turn edge out a whole new (and larger) list that will be sent to NU where they will never see the light of day. The presence of the pokemon you list obliges the use of teams built of the sturdiest and the strongest and, I believe, destroys the tiny bit of variety we've been able to manufacture under the current system.

This, while being an obvious concern, is speculative. You were already given a list of pokemon that could most likely improve above, just to add to that:

Exeggutor
Cherrim
Tangrowth
Jumpluff
Sunflora
Tropius
Shiftry

Most of these won't become top OU's, no doubt, but they're now lingering in the depths of UU (Tangrowth excluded) and with Groudon would increase significantly in usage - not least because some of them can actually "counter" him or other Ubers (Cherrim laughs at Wobbuffet, for instance).

You also mention the increasing difficulty for Stall Teams to run with this change - then again, Deoxys-LG and Lugia might have one or two words to say about that.

What it comes down to is that while the most obvious assumption would be that this "demotion" would narrow down the metagame, it's not a given by any means and that by itself should justify a test run.

No offense, I think you're a smart guy, but I think you misunderstood what I wanted to bring across: working from the bottom is easier than from above. I can compare it to making a nice team I'm satisfied with: I find starting from scratch a lot more easy than substituting moves/Pokemon/items/EVs because it's easy to just say "well if you do that you're just weak to Garchomp".

There's a vital difference to your method when compared to his: Time. While observing the effects of throwing in a few ubers into the OU-mix would also not be done in a week or two, what you're suggesting would literally be a project extended over months and months if done to maximum efficiency.

 

[Jumpman16]

Jumpman:

We don't need to test Mewtwo, Rayquaza, and Deoxys-A because we already have tested them for a year. That's what I view the uber tier as, a big test. I've played DP ubers quite a bit, and the list I came up with is based on that (although I have become convinced that perhaps Groudon deserves a shot... it was a borderline case as the mirror-image to Kyogre). If your argument is that we don't know how Deoxys-A, Mewtwo, and others would fare after we just ban Rayquaza (the Pokemon I have found to be the most centralizing force), then that's a different story, but I have seen no evidence to suggest that those Pokemon are weakened by Rayquaza's absence.

Well if you are separating Mewtwo, Rayquaza and Deoxys-A by quantitative means (time) that is a different story. I thought you came to that conclusion by the same quasi-qualitative means that got us in trouble in the first place, which was using common sense and existing pokemon smarts to decide beforehand what is "obviously uber". I don't, though, see what you mean by a "year": are you saying that we did not test Ho-oh, Kyogre, Mew and Lugia for the same exact time period of Mewtwo, Ray and DX-A, or, rather, that after the same "year" time period it has become qualitatively evident that the former group of pokemon in this sentence are "suspects"? Please clarify that.

I will state and perhaps "concede" for the sake of this discussion that I have played ubers about a dozen times since 2004. That doesn't really matter though because at this point I am only questioning by what means you arrived at your line, and am not stating myself why x uber or y uber is obviously uber or not, as I'm sure you've noticed (and as I am not sure other, less observant posters will, which is why I'm bringing it up).

My real argument is at the bottom of my wall of words, though—it simply is not practical to test over a dozen pokemon you'd have us believe are "suspects" (and the Lati@s I'm willing to believe indeed are suspects while you are not, according to your initial list). I added first the bit about uber x being countered by uber y and non-uber z to remind "us" all that y and z have been available in the uber metagame to check the strength of uber x since the beginning, which is your "year" or whenever people actually started playing ubers. And if a small part of your argument is (forgive me for not rereading each of your early posts to find whether the original quote is yours or someone else's) is that we have not had enough time to play the uber metagame and determine which z pokemon can counter the x ubers, I don't buy that for one second. It would be just as easy to encourage people to play the uber metagame with more z pokemon if we want to determine which of your dozen or so suspects can indeed be countered by z pokemon.

 

[scorchedsky]

The thing everyone is missing here is definitely an objective, fair way to go about this whole process, if we use existing metrics to document true pokemon usage. And why shouldn't we?

If we were to have a large-scale server, functional for multiple weeks, keeping track of all pokemon used, and the end of every test period (two weeks or whatever) we could then specifically analyze what pokemon were being used and how frequently. This gives us a metric of over-centralization. Kyogre is on 75% of teams? Ban it. However, if the number of pokemon in the top 95% of usage increases, then of course "more pokemon become usable" is a perfectly legitimate claim.

The primary goal of this would be of course to almost smooth out pokemon use as well, so one pokemon isn't on 43% of teams, while the next most popular is on 30something, &c. What we should attempt to accomplish by this is to even out this distribution, while also increasing the amount of usable pokemon in an OU metagame.

People complain about this potentially making OU "Ubers-lite." However, that would only occur if we had teams of 5 or 4 Ubers as the most common teams, with 1-2 "fillers" who happen to fit niche roles being used. But aren't there ways to objectively measure this? Don't Shoddybattle servers require every team to be loaded pre-match, and couldn't there be a way for each team composition to be analyzed? What metrics are we missing, assuming we can port all the ones that are used on the current Shoddybattle ladder to our Uber test server?

 

[Lyfsaho]

The thing everyone is missing here is definitely an objective, fair way to go about this whole process, if we use existing metrics to document true pokemon usage. And why shouldn't we?

If we were to have a large-scale server, functional for multiple weeks, keeping track of all pokemon used, and the end of every test period (two weeks or whatever) we could then specifically analyze what pokemon were being used and how frequently. This gives us a metric of over-centralization. Kyogre is on 75% of teams? Ban it. However, if the number of pokemon in the top 95% of usage increases, then of course "more pokemon become usable" is a perfectly legitimate claim.

One problem I can see right away with this method: Say you announce a testing period of 3 weeks of the Latis, Manaphy, Wobbuffet and Mew on Shoddy; This would have as an immediate logical consequence that most Battlers would put them in their team out of sheer curiousity, to see how well they do- and obviously, Shoddy usage for them would be extremely high. What you're suggesting is only valid if the test period were to be, say, at least two months, letting the initial phase or curiosity wear out and then determine how many users still make use of the tested pokemon.

For instance, I have no statistical data to back this up, but I'd wager Shoddy usage of Deoxys-E increased dramatically in the first couple of weeks he was pronounced OU and is / will now slowly start to decrease.

 

[scorchedsky]

Of course any testing period would have to "let the dust settle." I'm not claiming testing would be done quickly or anything, but i would wager that D-S usage has somewhat normalized out by now on Shoddy (I can't evaluate the whole metagame from one battler's perspective). Won't we have data on that in the next few days? At least on its overall usage for the month.

 

[Lyfsaho]

Of course any testing period would have to "let the dust settle." I'm not claiming testing would be done quickly or anything, but i would wager that D-S usage has somewhat normalized out by now on Shoddy (I can't evaluate the whole metagame from one battler's perspective). Won't we have data on that in the next few days? At least on its overall usage for the month.

Yes, I believe we will, and that might help estimate a time period to test other Ubers - but consider that should more than one be tested at a time the average usage will take longer to be defined.

 

[1059860]

There isn't one very safe counter of a Kyogre in OU. If Wobbuffet is brought down, with max sDef and max HP, that's about it.
Blissey--Aqua Tail
Dusknoir--Water Spout
Cresselia--Calm Mind(s) + Water Spout/Thunder/Surf
Garchomp--Ice Beam
Metagross--Water Spout
Lugia (If brought down)--Thunder Wave + 2~3 Thunders or 2 Thunders with Specs
Darkrai--Lum Berry + Water Spout
Shedinja--Switch to Hippowdon/Tyranitar/Abomasnow or a Toxic/WoWisper
Ludicolo--Thunder
Milotic--Thunder Wave + Thunder or Simple Switch (It can WALL it and MC but it can't COUNTER.)
Salamence--Ice Beam
All Water Types besides Lanturn: Thunder
All Flying Types: Thunder
All Grass/Dragon Types: Ice Beam
Everything Else: Water Spout/Calm Mind+Surf

It's RAIN + STAB Water Spout + Base 150 Special Attack.

Putting Rest on it if needed. If Palkia is brought down, it can possibly kill it. That's almost it.

Remember, its movepool is relatively good, too.
By keeping Electivire on that team, it can also absorb Thunderbolts/Waves/Punches from Blissey, Lanturn, Electivire and Starmie. Kyogre would be an absolute terror.

 

[Aeolus]

This, while being an obvious concern, is speculative. You were already given a list of pokemon that could most likely improve above, just to add to that:

Exeggutor
Cherrim
Tangrowth
Jumpluff
Sunflora
Tropius
Shiftry

Most of these won't become top OU's, no doubt, but they're now lingering in the depths of UU (Tangrowth excluded) and with Groudon would increase significantly in usage - not least because some of them can actually "counter" him or other Ubers (Cherrim laughs at Wobbuffet, for instance).

You also mention the increasing difficulty for Stall Teams to run with this change - then again, Deoxys-LG and Lugia might have one or two words to say about that.

What it comes down to is that while the most obvious assumption would be that this "demotion" would narrow down the metagame, it's not a given by any means and that by itself should justify a test run.



There's a vital difference to your method when compared to his: Time. While observing the effects of throwing in a few ubers into the OU-mix would also not be done in a week or two, what you're suggesting would literally be a project extended over months and months if done to maximum efficiency.

under no circumstances will Groudon be allowed. nobody suggested that... so... no.

 

[MegaBuddha]

I'm pretty sure the general opinion of the last page was 'If Kyogre is allowed so should Groudon'. =/


And I 100% agree with Garchomp. If we can allow it, we can easily cope with Ogre/Groudon/Lati@s/Ho-Oh/Deoxys-D&S/Lugia

Easily. =/ In fact I'd be less afraid of Ogre than chomp.

 

[Raikou]

I'm pretty sure the general opinion of the last page was 'If Kyogre is allowed so should Groudon'. =/


And I 100% agree with Garchomp. If we can allow it, we can easily cope with Ogre/Groudon/Lati@s/Ho-Oh/Deoxys-D&S/Lugia

Easily. =/ In fact I'd be less afraid of Ogre than chomp.

Then you've never played ubers. Garchomp goes down to unstabbed ice beams from walls, and ice is one of the most common attack types. Kyogre goes down to unstabbed nothing, considering it has 316 special defense without ev's or nature. Water spout is also much more powerful than Outrage; the only way Outrage compares in power is with a choice band, which means Garchomp is running 333 speed max and can be killed before he gets a chance by quite a few things. Kyogre can run a scarf and hit with an effective 300 power attack off 438 SA.

Garchomp is powerful but can't touch Kyogre, don't kid yourself. Adding ubers doesn't magically make Garchomp less powerful, it adds several more powerful variations of him to the metagame.

 

[1059860]

Then you've never played ubers. Garchomp goes down to unstabbed ice beams from walls, and ice is one of the most common attack types. Kyogre goes down to unstabbed nothing, considering it has 316 special defense without ev's or nature. Water spout is also much more powerful than Outrage; the only way Outrage compares in power is with a choice band, which means Garchomp is running 333 speed max and can be killed before he gets a chance by quite a few things. Kyogre can run a scarf and hit with an effective 300 power attack off 438 SA.

Garchomp is powerful but can't touch Kyogre, don't kid yourself. Adding ubers doesn't magically make Garchomp less powerful, it adds several more powerful variations of him to the metagame.

Exactly my point. Well said, Raikou. Now if you add Palkia along with the greatness of the rain as well as Manaphy's freeRests, OU tier will be teared up by a half-monoWater type team...

Kyogre is only safely counted TRULY by a Palkia.

 

[Lyfsaho]

under no circumstances will Groudon be allowed. nobody suggested that... so... no.

Kyogre was suggested by quite a few people, and in the last few pages of this topic, it was my impression that most people agreed on testing Groudon with Kyogre.

In fact, it is nearly impossible to even consider Kyogre without considering his counterpart- indirectly speaking, allowing permanent rain but not permanent sun would definitely scar the metagame and severely unbalance it. Even comparing both individually, I don't see how Groudon is more or less dangerous than Kyogre- I'd prefer to face the former any day to be honest, as Groudon actually has several relatively solid counters in the metagame.

Obviously, both of them are not among the obvious "ubers-lite" which require immediate testing, but Im just answering to your claim that nobody suggested him. If you're suggesting Kyogre, you're suggesting Groudon.

 

[umbarsc]

Kyogre is only safely counted TRULY by a Palkia.

Palkia doesn't have the SpD to come in on Thunders all day, so that's not a true counter.

 

[obi]

I don't believe a Pokemon has to be able to come in on every possible move a Pokemon has to be a counter, otherwise nothing counters Tyranitar. Pokemon only have four moveslots, and they are only using one of those at a time.

 

[umbarsc]

I don't believe a Pokemon has to be able to come in on every possible move a Pokemon has to be a counter, otherwise nothing counters Tyranitar. Pokemon only have four moveslots, and they are only using one of those at a time.

However, he said true counter. Palkia is a Kyogre counter, but not a true counter if a move it nearly always has beats you away.

 

[Lyfsaho]

I don't believe a Pokemon has to be able to come in on every possible move a Pokemon has to be a counter, otherwise nothing counters Tyranitar. Pokemon only have four moveslots, and they are only using one of those at a time.

Actually, I'd take my odds with Bulky Machamp on that one. But agreed.
Tentacruel is a Mixape counter, but gets destroyed by physical apes. It's still an Infernape counter.

 

[umbarsc]

Actually, I'd take my odds with Bulky Machamp on that one. But agreed.
Tentacruel is a Mixape counter, but gets destroyed by physical apes. It's still an Infernape counter.

Machamp is 2HKO'd by CB Aerial Ace. ;)

 

[1059860]

Palkia should Thunder & Kill Kyogre before Kyogre kills Palkia. It maybe risky if Kyogre is scarfed.

 

[Lyfsaho]

Machamp is 2HKO'd by CB Aerial Ace. ;)

hahhahaha. Mamoswine OHKO's Heracross with Peck.

 

[Bologo]

I don't believe a Pokemon has to be able to come in on every possible move a Pokemon has to be a counter, otherwise nothing counters Tyranitar. Pokemon only have four moveslots, and they are only using one of those at a time.

Ehh, I do believe that Hariyama counters Tyranitar quite handily, especially if it's a bulky Thick Fat kind, because not even Boah can shut him down.

Heh, but sorry for the off-topicness, I just had to mention that.

 

[Jolt99]

Why do people even want kyogre in OU? If you want its drizzle ability, use something sturdy with rain dance. If you want kyogre, play ubers.

IMO "heavy hitters" should stay in ubers. Rayquaza, mewtwo, groudon, kyogre, latios ect. They're too powerful.

After checking with the site material, I believe that anything with a base stat total higher than 600 (other that regigigas and slaking) is uber.

This leaves us with:

Manaphy
Deoxys (speed and defense forms)
Latias

These I believe should be OU

and:

Darkrai
Latios
Mew

Who shouldn't, but could be allowed somehow.

Which brings me to my next point. I think the above three could be allowed, but with some restrictions. All pokes have a BST of 600 BTW.

Darkrai is pretty shaky. I'm tempted to say this things movepool makes it uber. But what if we were to impose restrictions on these pokes? Banning sould dew, dark void, and maybe a combination of certain moves on manaphy would make all of these easily playable in OU.

The latis. Hmm. a sweeper and a wall. Latios has higher offensive stats, and luster purge lowers spdef, to let latios hit harder. Latias is the opposite. While latios is debatable, I see no problem with letting latias into OU, having it fill a role as a special wall. I've used a latias with leftovers, dragon claw, roar, recover and refresh with decent success. It wasn't overpowered, no-one complained about it. Latios could be a bit too powerful tho. This should be discussed.

Now, the deoxys. I took a step back and analyzed them as individual pokes, and I couldn't help but laugh at the thought of them being uber. these two are BL, OU at best. I think that the only reason they were ever uber is because they are deoxys forms. Their stats are comparable to dusknoir and ninjask. (*shiver* I HATE pronouncing dusknoir. duss-noo-wah, dusk-uh-noo-warr evil!)

.... anyway, speedeoxys has a big movepool and speed stat. Nothing gamebreaking there. The defense form has good defenses, but its hp (base 50/304) is DISMAL. It's his lowest stat! Low hit points break a tank/wall. Why do you think (next to) no-one uses shuckle or dusknoir? Yet giratina, blissey and snorlax are so good at it?

I can't really give an opinion of darkrai and mew because I have no experience with them, but restrictions such as banning dark void and baton pass with taunt or... something could make them useable.

This is all up to people's discretion, I think. No-one wants to play a badly inbalanced game. Real battlers can't call themselves so if they use real ubers in OU. The pokes I listed above should become pseudo legendaries, and I think people will tone them down as needed if they want to use them.
Now, manaphy. I have no experience with it, but I want to try it and see wat its like for myself before I post an opinion.

 

[Bologo]

Why do people even want kyogre in OU? If you want its drizzle ability, use something sturdy with rain dance. If you want kyogre, play ubers.

IMO "heavy hitters" should stay in ubers. Rayquaza, mewtwo, groudon, kyogre, latios ect. They're too powerful.

After checking with the site material, I believe that anything with a base stat total higher than 600 (other that regigigas and slaking) is uber.

This leaves us with:

Manaphy
Deoxys (speed and defense forms)
Latias

These I believe should be OU

and:

Darkrai
Latios
Mew

Who shouldn't, but could be allowed somehow.

Which brings me to my next point. I think the above three could be allowed, but with some restrictions. All pokes have a BST of 600 BTW.

Darkrai is pretty shaky. I'm tempted to say this things movepool makes it uber. But what if we were to impose restrictions on these pokes? Banning sould dew, dark void, and maybe a combination of certain moves on manaphy would make all of these easily playable in OU.

Imposing restrictions (besides banning soul dew) is something that really isn't going to happen, since it makes the pokemon just a watered down version of what it actually is. In 2v2 Dark Void is banned though, because it puts more than one pokemon to sleep at a time, which isn't allowed thanks to sleep clause.

The latis. Hmm. a sweeper and a wall. Latios has higher offensive stats, and luster purge lowers spdef, to let latios hit harder. Latias is the opposite. While latios is debatable, I see no problem with letting latias into OU, having it fill a role as a special wall. I've used a latias with leftovers, dragon claw, roar, recover and refresh with decent success. It wasn't overpowered, no-one complained about it. Latios could be a bit too powerful tho. This should be discussed.

Why are you using Dragon Claw, with the weaker of Latias's two stats? Dragon Pulse hits way harder.

Now, the deoxys. I took a step back and analyzed them as individual pokes, and I couldn't help but laugh at the thought of them being uber. these two are BL, OU at best. I think that the only reason they were ever uber is because they are deoxys forms. Their stats are comparable to dusknoir and ninjask. (*shiver* I HATE pronouncing dusknoir. duss-noo-wah, dusk-uh-noo-warr evil!)

.... anyway, speedeoxys has a big movepool and speed stat. Nothing gamebreaking there. The defense form has good defenses, but its hp (base 50/304) is DISMAL. It's his lowest stat! Low hit points break a tank/wall. Why do you think (next to) no-one uses shuckle or dusknoir? Yet giratina, blissey and snorlax are so good at it?

Deoxys-S is already unbanned. I do kind of agree with Deoxys-D about that stuff, and it would do an awful nice job of getting rid of Skarmory usage, helping Cresselia out with that job, since it basically does EVERYTHING that Skarmory can do, except more.

I can't really give an opinion of darkrai and mew because I have no experience with them, but restrictions such as banning dark void and baton pass with taunt or... something could make them useable.

Like I said before, that's not going to happen.

This is all up to people's discretion, I think. No-one wants to play a badly inbalanced game. Real battlers can't call themselves so if they use real ubers in OU. The pokes I listed above should become pseudo legendaries, and I think people will tone them down as needed if they want to use them.
Now, manaphy. I have no experience with it, but I want to try it and see wat its like for myself before I post an opinion.

 

[COalex]

Why do people even want kyogre in OU? If you want its drizzle ability, use something sturdy with rain dance. If you want kyogre, play ubers.

It's not whether people "want" Kyogre in OU that matters, it's whether it would overcentralize or unbalence the metagame.