Hmmm, lot of Gen 5 hate. Personally, I think Gen 4 is the weaker generation. I just find Sinnoh a bit too drawn-out and bland for my taste, and I hate how they went overboard with HMs and how pathetic DP's selection of Pokemon was. Not saying the Sinnoh games are bad by any means, but I'd rather play the other Pokemon games before those.
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When did Pokémon lose its way?
- Thread starter Pikamemnon
- Start date
I like how every gen brought something new though. While Gen 1 is my favorite, I believe that Gen V was the best game gameplay-wise, with a very exciting, new story. All the games are pretty equal, and brought new aspects to Pokemon.
Gen 1 = N/A
Gen 2 = Shinies, IVs, updates to previous evolution families, Dark and Steel types, breeding, baby pokemon. Night and day
Gen 3 = weather, abilities, double battles, individual party sprites, pokemon contests
Gen 4 = updates to previous evolution families, night and day, physical/special split
Gen 5 = Triple/Rotation Battles, seasons, animated sprites in battle, Dream World
Gen 6 = 3D graphics, Fairy type...
Gen 1 = N/A
Gen 2 = Shinies, IVs, updates to previous evolution families, Dark and Steel types, breeding, baby pokemon. Night and day
Gen 3 = weather, abilities, double battles, individual party sprites, pokemon contests
Gen 4 = updates to previous evolution families, night and day, physical/special split
Gen 5 = Triple/Rotation Battles, seasons, animated sprites in battle, Dream World
Gen 6 = 3D graphics, Fairy type...
Weather actually came along in Gen 2 -- it was just less prominent.
:oops:
In terms of Pokemon as a video game, I would say nothing significant was added after Generation 4. Very few people are actually interested in Triple and Rotation battles. Different seasons change a few small details in the game, no big deal; it's kind of like night and day and the days of the week in Generation 2 too. The Dream World is not only partially external to the game, but we are already familiar with things like secret bases and berry planting. Gen 6's attempt to make a 3D world on the DS seems pretty ugly compared to earlier generations' smoother isometric style. A new type is about as interesting as a new dual type combination or a newly discovered previous evolution of Pokemon that already existed. I could shoot down a lot of stuff Diamond and Pearl added, but it had one saving grace: Wi-Fi.
Pokemon is basically the new Call of Duty. Most fans will eat it up, whether it's the same game or not each generation. People even bought Pokemon Yellow, Crystal, Emerald, Platinum, and BW2. (am i being serious or not?)
Pokemon is basically the new Call of Duty. Most fans will eat it up, whether it's the same game or not each generation. People even bought Pokemon Yellow, Crystal, Emerald, Platinum, and BW2. (am i being serious or not?)
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The Pokémon franchise has stayed basically the same since the first games. They've kept using the winning formula, adding more bells and whistles to the solid framework, but not changed a lot or expanded on its foundations. It works well, after all we love the games, and love to hate the anime, but there's only so much you can do to the existing formula without changing anything. And, seeing how constant the franchise has stayed, change would really upset a lot of people (imagine, for instance, if they replaced Abilities with something else or changed the base stats system). We get to a point where all they can add is bells and whistles of different colours. Perhaps something could be done with the linearity of the gameplay (having "defeat eight gyms in any order you desire" as a main stoyline, and have all the rest be included as a ton of sidequests, for instance), or changing the story so it isn't always the same (professor sends you out on quest, defeat eight gyms, beat evil team), but anything radical would make the fans go apedung with fury. The main series games are kinda "sacred", trying out new things is strictly reserved for spin-offs. And so it feels a little stale after a while.
Of course, we who have stayed with the series from the beginning are the hardest to please. We have seen everything they have done so far, and we crave that they always do better. People who buy a game and stick with it for a generation or two represent the ideal market, whenever they "fall off" the bandwagon, the same stuff could be sold to the next kid in a new package, but we oldies will complain loudly if we keep getting the same over and over. And, unfortunately for GameFreak, the diehard fans are responsible for most of the social media buzz, they will have to please us to stay in a positive light. No marketing department could ever do half the job the fans do when it comes to promoting Pokémon. If the games begin to appear stale to us, they quickly appear stale to the rest of the Internet too, and thus the consumers. But, again, if they change too much about the games, we go even crazier and would hurt the image of the franchise even more. GameFreak are walking a very narrow path, and it's understandable they don't want to take any chances.
It doesn't help either that we might be reaching eight hundred creatures this generation, meaning that old favourites have to be forgotten in order for new ones to get their time in the spotlight. There are also eight hundred 'mons to model, animate and texture (and write Dex entries for), demanding a lot of work to be done on the creators' part whenever they try out something new. Sure, with increasing cartridge sizes, the data can be held comfortably, but somebody still has to sit there and draw all those sixteen hundred eyes (give or take a few), or add shade to all the claws and teeth. Small wonder why they don't bother with realistic-looking fur and feathers.
Of course, we who have stayed with the series from the beginning are the hardest to please. We have seen everything they have done so far, and we crave that they always do better. People who buy a game and stick with it for a generation or two represent the ideal market, whenever they "fall off" the bandwagon, the same stuff could be sold to the next kid in a new package, but we oldies will complain loudly if we keep getting the same over and over. And, unfortunately for GameFreak, the diehard fans are responsible for most of the social media buzz, they will have to please us to stay in a positive light. No marketing department could ever do half the job the fans do when it comes to promoting Pokémon. If the games begin to appear stale to us, they quickly appear stale to the rest of the Internet too, and thus the consumers. But, again, if they change too much about the games, we go even crazier and would hurt the image of the franchise even more. GameFreak are walking a very narrow path, and it's understandable they don't want to take any chances.
It doesn't help either that we might be reaching eight hundred creatures this generation, meaning that old favourites have to be forgotten in order for new ones to get their time in the spotlight. There are also eight hundred 'mons to model, animate and texture (and write Dex entries for), demanding a lot of work to be done on the creators' part whenever they try out something new. Sure, with increasing cartridge sizes, the data can be held comfortably, but somebody still has to sit there and draw all those sixteen hundred eyes (give or take a few), or add shade to all the claws and teeth. Small wonder why they don't bother with realistic-looking fur and feathers.
wait what
Cobraroll has beaten me to the original point of what I was going to post, but I would like to add that the main series games could at least evolve more in gameplay mechanics. Sticking to cardinal-directional travel until jumping to 3D this year is an extreme case of foot-dragging, which is odd for a series that only recently got old enough to justify a "retro" label. It also could have tried dropping some of the JRPG tropes that it inherited, such as the way critical hits, accuracy, and some status conditions work. Other JRPG series don't just ride on the one gameplay gimmick that defines them, but instead evolve continually in ways that are significant in-game, not just competitively. Maybe Pokemon is just too popular for its own good.
I remember kinda liking the Gen 5 starters enough, and we can joke now about the legendaries being goofy dr. suess airplane dragons but Braviary (or as I prefer, Wargle) was really badass. So when the Gen 5 sprites leaked in full I got my IRL buddy and we started looking at them one-by-one.
Swoobat
Swoobat is when Pokemon died. Looking at this clusterfuck of colors and shapes, one could only sit and wonder; why? Why did someone create this? What exactly is this supposed to be? We picked apart that list of new Pokemon like it was Manos and we were MST3K.
Swoobat
Swoobat is when Pokemon died. Looking at this clusterfuck of colors and shapes, one could only sit and wonder; why? Why did someone create this? What exactly is this supposed to be? We picked apart that list of new Pokemon like it was Manos and we were MST3K.
So you prefer Swoobat's design over Grimer and Muk?
Maybe in terms of battle mechanics and extra features, you could say Gen 5 is lacking. But Gen 5 did take many steps to make the single-player adventure much more comfortable and enjoyable to play through, and I think that's what matters most. We have reusable TMs, HMs that aren't needed to complete the game aside from one early part, more NPCs that can heal you and weather that didn't waste your time in BW1. BW2 added skippable tutorials and the glorious message of "Repel's effect wore off... Would you like to use another?".
I think the basics of pokemon games haven't changed, but they get improved : better graphics, more pokemon, more moves/abilities so more possibilities, more convenient stuff, etc...
The 1st gen giant hype died quickly like all hypes, this is normal, it doesn't mean the games are less good, most casual gamers just got bored of it. Those who like the concept will still play and that's more than enough to keep the franchise alive.
The 1st gen giant hype died quickly like all hypes, this is normal, it doesn't mean the games are less good, most casual gamers just got bored of it. Those who like the concept will still play and that's more than enough to keep the franchise alive.
The catching them all thing was mostly international marketing, it wasn't as much in Japan iirc. Once it became impractical to really do , its easy to see why they retired it.
But uh
Did you misplace some words because "the games have really become more cut down versions of the overall story (which kind of makes sense, because making a game that could span all the anime series would be colossal" makes 0 amounts of sense (there is no over all story across games; anime is its own thing; they have been making more involved plots since gen 3)
e: Also as a general thing, the TCG is still going pretty strong. As strong as it was in the first generation? Of course not, nothing could match that perfect storm of marketing.
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The second part of this is basically my point; they retired the "collect the set" aspect of the games.
Not exactly, but it wasn't as clear as it could've been. The games, or at least, the games the last time I played them and had any idea what was happening in the Anime (admittedly, this was some time ago) were basically pick the most recent region from the Anime and slot it into the 8 Gyms / Team Rocket Clone --> Elite 4 --> Battle Tower type model.
Am I the only person who didn't watch the pokemon anime until much later (sinnoh arc) yet still loves the old anime whereas I hate the new anime?
I don't have the nostalgia factor, but I still have the views people with the nostalgia factor do. For me the anime has changed a lot since the early stages and only in a bad way. It has always been aimed at kids, now it seems to be aimed at toddlers who wouldn't be watching TV in the first place.
I don't have the nostalgia factor, but I still have the views people with the nostalgia factor do. For me the anime has changed a lot since the early stages and only in a bad way. It has always been aimed at kids, now it seems to be aimed at toddlers who wouldn't be watching TV in the first place.
Uhhhhhhhhh
The anime is always secondary to the games*. They aren't taking the regions and junk where the anime goes and just stretching it over a stock model. The anime takes what the games have, shake out most of the plotlines, and then stretches it for 3 to 4 years depending on how long it is until the next game.
This is why the anime is 90% filler, with Ash (based on the first gen protagonist) & company helping character/pokemon of the day plots in towns that may/may not be from the games. The other 5% is gym battles, the remainder is hyper condensed (& often heavily edited) versions of the games' main plots
There's a reason game=/=anime is a constant thing brought up in discussions.
*The one exception being Yellow though that's a goofy game based on the anime based on the game scenario
I never stopped feeling like I'm part of Pokemon's demographic... at least not in terms of pokemon designs.
In terms of gameplay and mechanics though I'd have to say if Pokemon ever "lost it's way," it would whenever it got the technology to no longer have to be linear. Pokemon was about as open world a game could be on the original game boy. Fast forward to B/W and we are still getting linear adventures in a game series inspired by exploration and discovery. It's always felt weird that a pokemon campaign can "end." Sure you can shoot for the full dex or make your lv 100s, but a lot of people whine for more content all the time as Pokemon games feel like they should be endless adventures. Game freak's response to this has been extending the line even farther beyond the elite 4, but perhaps we shouldn't be playing on a line to begin with. Maybe we ought to be on circle. The circle must have edges, yes, but where one place starts and the other ends is a bit more blurred. Pokemon would very much suit the "make your own agenda" design of sandbox games. I don't know who thinks little kids need to be told how to have fun with a video game. Telling a kid "there's monsters you can catch in the grass. Here's a pokeball." is like saying "There's sand in that box. Here's a shovel."
In terms of gameplay and mechanics though I'd have to say if Pokemon ever "lost it's way," it would whenever it got the technology to no longer have to be linear. Pokemon was about as open world a game could be on the original game boy. Fast forward to B/W and we are still getting linear adventures in a game series inspired by exploration and discovery. It's always felt weird that a pokemon campaign can "end." Sure you can shoot for the full dex or make your lv 100s, but a lot of people whine for more content all the time as Pokemon games feel like they should be endless adventures. Game freak's response to this has been extending the line even farther beyond the elite 4, but perhaps we shouldn't be playing on a line to begin with. Maybe we ought to be on circle. The circle must have edges, yes, but where one place starts and the other ends is a bit more blurred. Pokemon would very much suit the "make your own agenda" design of sandbox games. I don't know who thinks little kids need to be told how to have fun with a video game. Telling a kid "there's monsters you can catch in the grass. Here's a pokeball." is like saying "There's sand in that box. Here's a shovel."
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I myself actually play the Pokemon TCG, i wouldnt say its dead, in fact id say its really popular. Although it is somewhat of a rarity to find a competitive battle who is also a competitive TCG fan.
I think the main problem is that we're all so familiar with pokemon and that we've grown up. Ive played pokemon since i was 6, my first game was Pokemon Red, ive also played every single main series pokemon game to date. The show is terrible though lol but i guess every rose has its thorns. The thing that particularly bothers me about pokemon, in my personal opinion, would be its hunt for inovation in terms of graphics and function technology wise. Id be fine with Gen 3 graphics as long as the region, story, and the pokemon are awesome, but thats just me.
Breaks my heart to know that some peoples first Pokemon game will be X or Y.
I think the main problem is that we're all so familiar with pokemon and that we've grown up. Ive played pokemon since i was 6, my first game was Pokemon Red, ive also played every single main series pokemon game to date. The show is terrible though lol but i guess every rose has its thorns. The thing that particularly bothers me about pokemon, in my personal opinion, would be its hunt for inovation in terms of graphics and function technology wise. Id be fine with Gen 3 graphics as long as the region, story, and the pokemon are awesome, but thats just me.
Breaks my heart to know that some peoples first Pokemon game will be X or Y.
I feel too that Gen V onwards hasn't really lived up to my expectations. After Pt and SS, I bought a Black cartridge but I haven't finished E4 until now and I find it difficult to keep track of all the new Pokemon. Of course it's an opinion, I'm sure there are many people out there who love Gen V as they have loved I-IV. But personally, one thing that made a big difference for me is growing up and having many more things to do IRL - I realise that I have much less free time to continue playing the games seriously and less space in my brain to remember all the typing and etc of those 600+...
Regarding the anime, I don't think that it has been consistently bad. My only issue with the first season (which is pretty much all I watched) is that Ash and co could never identify Team Rocket even when it was blatant -_- and the Mewtwo movies were really good, I think they taught really good lessons. Haha I think I am not really qualified to talk about the anime though, having watched so little of it.
Regarding the anime, I don't think that it has been consistently bad. My only issue with the first season (which is pretty much all I watched) is that Ash and co could never identify Team Rocket even when it was blatant -_- and the Mewtwo movies were really good, I think they taught really good lessons. Haha I think I am not really qualified to talk about the anime though, having watched so little of it.
Before I make this post, I want to preface it with something. It bugs me that whenever I feel GF/Nintendo/whoever make a decision that I don't agree with when it comes to pokemon, I'm instantly labelled as a genwunner and my opinions are bat aside as nothing more than the whining of someone who doesn't like change. That couldn't be further from the truth. I LOVED Gen V, easily my second favourite gen after gen IV. I loved the more creative plot (though the Ghetsis turn at the end kinda put a dampener on it), and I think they executed some of the more challenging graphics amazingly (N's Castle was sweet). So when I'm complaining about the changes Pokemon is going through, understand that I'm fully open to a change that appeals to me.
That said, I do think Gamefreak are struggling to keep the series going. They have to give us new and original content, and I think there's a limit as to how far a series like pokemon can go. Take the new mega-evolutions for instance. I like the fact that they are trying to add new mechanics to the series, but they just look so uninspired and almost forced. They've just taken the original designs and added more flames and shit to them. They don't even have an original name; they just stuck "mega" in front of it. X&Y in general I think will struggle to really reinvent the series. Once I got over the initial hype of "OMG NEW POKEMON, OOH FANCY 3D GRAPHICS OOH NEW TYPING", I kind of realised that GF are facing major problems with X and Y. They probably have the hardest fanbase in the world to please, seeing as their most vocal demographic is probably the smallest one; those that have been with the company since Gen III or earlier. They need new stuff to attract the kids in Japan and the rest of the world, but they also can't mess with the basics too much for fear of backlash from this minority audience (whose opinions are still very valuable I might add).
Then there's the very simple problem with a series like pokemon; there's too many pokemon. We're looking at potentially 750-800 by gen 6; that is a shit ton. I have much sympathy for the people behind designing new pokemon, because I have no idea how people can expect to have 800 pokemon that are all completely unique and fascinating, there's simply too many. But by the same token, too little and there's not enough diversity in the game, which is another very fine line gamefreak have to navigate, and one which grows finer every generation. Of course, there's almost zero chance that all these pokemon will be competitively balanced (again I don't blame gamefreak for this), which means the 6th gen metagame is looking very turbulent in my eyes. I have a feeling we're going to see a major change in the way Smogon teaches and tiers competitive pokemon, because right now, gamefreak have shown little to no support for it (by which I mean Smogon's standards, not VGC).
Call me a downer if you want, but I think X&Y might be the beginning of the end for Pokemon. I've no doubt it will sell well, but I can't help but feel that once people are over the initial hype and give it trigger finger rave reviews, it will be remembered as the point where pokemon began its steady decline. I think we've reached a point where it's simply not humanly feasible for Gamefreak to give us any more from the concept. They've managed to make dozens of fantastic games out of the same, linear concept every time, which I applaud them for. But the idea can only be sustained for so long until not just the original fans grow bored of it; Gamefreak get bored of it.
So to answer the question: Pokemon lost its way when the companies decided to keep pumping games out rather than preserve the series and either abandon it or adapt it in a completely new way.
That's just my two cents, so don't jump down my throat with nonsensical bullshit like "there's nothing wrong with anything, it's objectively perfect, genwun (BAN ME PLEASE)".
Also I'm not commenting on the anime or the cards, seeing as the former was only ever to sell the games anyway (and I just naturally outgrew that), and I've never played TGC.
That said, I do think Gamefreak are struggling to keep the series going. They have to give us new and original content, and I think there's a limit as to how far a series like pokemon can go. Take the new mega-evolutions for instance. I like the fact that they are trying to add new mechanics to the series, but they just look so uninspired and almost forced. They've just taken the original designs and added more flames and shit to them. They don't even have an original name; they just stuck "mega" in front of it. X&Y in general I think will struggle to really reinvent the series. Once I got over the initial hype of "OMG NEW POKEMON, OOH FANCY 3D GRAPHICS OOH NEW TYPING", I kind of realised that GF are facing major problems with X and Y. They probably have the hardest fanbase in the world to please, seeing as their most vocal demographic is probably the smallest one; those that have been with the company since Gen III or earlier. They need new stuff to attract the kids in Japan and the rest of the world, but they also can't mess with the basics too much for fear of backlash from this minority audience (whose opinions are still very valuable I might add).
Then there's the very simple problem with a series like pokemon; there's too many pokemon. We're looking at potentially 750-800 by gen 6; that is a shit ton. I have much sympathy for the people behind designing new pokemon, because I have no idea how people can expect to have 800 pokemon that are all completely unique and fascinating, there's simply too many. But by the same token, too little and there's not enough diversity in the game, which is another very fine line gamefreak have to navigate, and one which grows finer every generation. Of course, there's almost zero chance that all these pokemon will be competitively balanced (again I don't blame gamefreak for this), which means the 6th gen metagame is looking very turbulent in my eyes. I have a feeling we're going to see a major change in the way Smogon teaches and tiers competitive pokemon, because right now, gamefreak have shown little to no support for it (by which I mean Smogon's standards, not VGC).
Call me a downer if you want, but I think X&Y might be the beginning of the end for Pokemon. I've no doubt it will sell well, but I can't help but feel that once people are over the initial hype and give it trigger finger rave reviews, it will be remembered as the point where pokemon began its steady decline. I think we've reached a point where it's simply not humanly feasible for Gamefreak to give us any more from the concept. They've managed to make dozens of fantastic games out of the same, linear concept every time, which I applaud them for. But the idea can only be sustained for so long until not just the original fans grow bored of it; Gamefreak get bored of it.
So to answer the question: Pokemon lost its way when the companies decided to keep pumping games out rather than preserve the series and either abandon it or adapt it in a completely new way.
That's just my two cents, so don't jump down my throat with nonsensical bullshit like "there's nothing wrong with anything, it's objectively perfect, genwun (BAN ME PLEASE)".
Also I'm not commenting on the anime or the cards, seeing as the former was only ever to sell the games anyway (and I just naturally outgrew that), and I've never played TGC.