And it's kinda what I was saying. So where is the argument?
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Why did you choose the religion you follow?
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his fallacy argument is true, but whether it applies to your argument, I don't know. my brain is too fried and exhausted to think beyond the superficial.
by the way, if I analyzed what you said right, you're saying that they want to stop evil on a regular basis, but can't because of physical limitations (i.e. keeping them locked up in prison, held at gunpoint or whatever. this example is irrelevant)? if so, no that doesn't make them malevolent, but it conflicts with the idea that god is omnipotent. thus, your rebuttal falls apart.
The Enterprise's mission is to seek out new life that has a reached a space faring point. When it encounters life that is intelligent but primitive, the Prime Directive kicks in. The Prime Directive states that the less culturally and technologically advanced society must be allowed to advance on its own without interference, even when there is a natural disaster or war that could be stopped. There is a great logic to this, but sometimes it does seem heartless.
Now if I saw a woman being raped and didn't stop it, does that make me malevolent? Yes. But I have no reason to stand back and let things run their natural course, as I am part of that natural course.
This world was created with a chaotic ecosystem that at times is a boon, and at times a force of destruction. People have the free will to do good or evil without interference. You say that for these things to be true God must be malevolent, I do not. It may just be a difference in philosophy, but it's hardly a point in anyone's favor. Cept maybe Satanists.
Simply because something has a pattern doesn't mean that it can't have been random chance.
If I flip a coin, it's possible for the coin to alternate heads, tails, heads, tails, and so forth forever. That doesn't mean that it isn't random.
If I flip a coin, it's possible for the coin to alternate heads, tails, heads, tails, and so forth forever. That doesn't mean that it isn't random.
if I understood what you said right god is letting nature run its course. does that mean praying is nothing more than an exercise in futility?
the definition of evil is as follows: morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked. now you COULD argue that what constitutes immorality is purely subjective, but I think that's going a little too far in your defense. it's pretty meticulous, IMO.
I don't have much room to breathe here as you cornered me with the "it's my belief" argument, which is fine don't get me wrong, but I can't exactly assess your argument without regurgitating and rewording what I previously wrote. after all, philosophy is subjective.
You are thinking far too basic a pattern.
Like I already said, I can't explain to you how music affects me. I can say that I see colors or that I hallucinate. These are the closest analogies, but they are not correct. When I look at a tree, any tree, I see a mark. One left by purposeful design. Only this is not an external marking, but within the tree's very code. And I could see it even as a child who had not been taught about God. Again, this is the closest analogy, but it is not correct.
I did not state my reasoning to prove to anyone that there is a God. In time, I hope to convert by example and not word. How can I convert by words when words cannot express to you the way I see the world. But I never believed in a God, or had faith that one existed. I saw one. And because of that, I never thought I could have faith. But then again, I had a poor grasp of the concept.
Also, though I agree the Prime Directive is rather flawed, if you had knowledge that intervention would be bad, even if it would prevent something, then you shouldn't intervene.
Say, you are being pick-pocked, and I notice two things, one that you are being pick-pocked and that the guy has a gun. Now I would not want to point it out, as there is a considerable chance that the guy would panic and shoot us.
On that note, don't you think that knowing that there was a higher power would be a bad thing. After all, if you knew that the higher power had an irrational hatred of gays, and that the nut job conservatives were right to suppress them, it would be a bad thing. Or any number of things in a similar fashion.
Say, you are being pick-pocked, and I notice two things, one that you are being pick-pocked and that the guy has a gun. Now I would not want to point it out, as there is a considerable chance that the guy would panic and shoot us.
On that note, don't you think that knowing that there was a higher power would be a bad thing. After all, if you knew that the higher power had an irrational hatred of gays, and that the nut job conservatives were right to suppress them, it would be a bad thing. Or any number of things in a similar fashion.
Praying is personal. I don't pray very often, and never for selfish reasons. If I want something, I ask for the personal strength to obtain it. Maybe that gives me more confidence. It varies person to person. I don't think you need to pray to "go to Heaven", but I'd hardly call the practice futile.
It'd be irrational to think that a higher power who created a chaotic world would be exceptionally displeased with homosexuality in particular. On the other hand, when starting a new religion, it's not irrational to encourage your followers to have same sex relationships that result in more followers. Underhanded, yes, but we could talk all day about the underhanded things men have done TO religion.
That was just supposed to be an example, I doubt that any higher being would care about that kind of thing, however, even if the higher being did, I'm free to believe it doesn't as long as it doesn't actively make it's presence known.
Also, if you are referring to Christianity, the word that is translated in modern times as homosexual is found in non biblical texts, some 50 odd times. During these times it refers to ritual prostitution, rather then homosexuality, some versions of the Bible actually make note of this, unfortunately this is commonly ignored.
Also, given that I don't see the presence of a higher power, but simply believe in one, because it makes life more aesthetically pleasing.
It doesn't matter the complexity of the pattern, if you agree that patterns can occur randomly, then it's just a matter of probability. So unless you believe the higher power is probability a.k.a. God's Debris then patterns can't prove the existence of a higher power. Not to mention the logical flaw that Lati0s pointed out.
if you pray for a relative to get healthy, you are exercising futility if you believe that god is letting nature run its course. the definition of prayer, a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession, states a connection with god. if you know god is not interfering at all, how is it that you can ask for personal strength without practicing futility? you know he can't do anything otherwise you'd be contradicting your belief that god is letting nature run its course.
I do not question the general context of praying. it just doesn't make sense to think he isn't interfering while simultaneously believing & feeling that you get personal strength from making a connection with god so hopefully you have an answer because I am dumbfounded.
anyway, I'd also like to post a very thought-provoking picture:
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/8657/1251150175815.gif
I don't like the snide attitude and general douchebaggery of it, but it brings up very valid points. especially with the passages.
He's talking about a sequence of numbers. I'm talking about a combination of qualities, acts, and tendencies. Lati0s's logical flaw still does not apply to what I see because for my original analogy to work one must not simply understand that technology is created, but what properties distinguish it as being created. Just as one can distinguish that a fish breaths underwater and that a dog has no such properties.
As for trilog, perhaps its part of my natural course to pray sometimes even when its futile. If we follow this argument further, it's going to start feeling like you're the one with Autism and I'm normal. People do alot of redundant things and surprisingly, religion only occasionally factors into that.
For patterns, lets go with the typical life is too unlike to have occurred without divine intervention argument (not that you have made that argument).
I believe the figure is the odds are 1 in 10^282. This would be the same odds of getting any 936.783723 coin flips in a row. Or approximately the same odds of me flipping a coin, converting to binary and then converting the binary to ASCII and getting the following message:
Despite the odds of this happening, it is still possible, just unlikely.
I believe the figure is the odds are 1 in 10^282. This would be the same odds of getting any 936.783723 coin flips in a row. Or approximately the same odds of me flipping a coin, converting to binary and then converting the binary to ASCII and getting the following message:
(936 characters in binary)
Despite the odds of this happening, it is still possible, just unlikely.
EDIT: Fair enough.
Let's look at Pokemon Black and White thread for a more proper analogy. I am a game designer. I am in a position of expertise on the matter. However, I cannot say that I am a game designer therefore I am right. That is a logical fallacy, no matter how right I may be. Instead, I must give reasoning that non game designers can understand. I cannot give you a reason for God's existence that you could comprehend unless you could see the way that I do, and I can't say that "I know, therefore you should listen to me". But this is not a debate thread, this is a "why are you religious" thread and I gave my reason.
Let's look at Pokemon Black and White thread for a more proper analogy. I am a game designer. I am in a position of expertise on the matter. However, I cannot say that I am a game designer therefore I am right. That is a logical fallacy, no matter how right I may be. Instead, I must give reasoning that non game designers can understand. I cannot give you a reason for God's existence that you could comprehend unless you could see the way that I do, and I can't say that "I know, therefore you should listen to me". But this is not a debate thread, this is a "why are you religious" thread and I gave my reason.
quoting to bump.
read your post entirely wrong. I was under the assumption you were calling me autistic because my beliefs aren't in the social norm. for that, I deeply apologize. that being said, my reaction just now was knee-jerk simply because I find ad hominems to be a poor way to admit you're wrong and/or have no sound argument. in less verbose wording, it's offensive. that wasn't the case, though, as Ferrous pointed out for me on my profile.
again, I apologize.
I understand, I edited my post earlier.
Anyway, maybe to put this into an even greater perspective (or put my foot further down throat), the way I see the world, it's idealistic just to think that existence is real. That we are not simply data with no real will or purpose. But I don't think that's true, and at the very least you could say that's a belief. I simply don't find nihilistic thoughts to be very productive.
Anyway, maybe to put this into an even greater perspective (or put my foot further down throat), the way I see the world, it's idealistic just to think that existence is real. That we are not simply data with no real will or purpose. But I don't think that's true, and at the very least you could say that's a belief. I simply don't find nihilistic thoughts to be very productive.
the way I see it the universe doesn't care what we do but what the human race does or doesn't do, does indeed matter to human beings, and to a wider extent all life on Earth and perhaps other life we come into contact with in the future.
evolution has given life the love of life. species that didn't care went extinct, we're decended from the species that wanted to live and as a whole we do want to live, we do want to help other members of our society so our society and our species will continue, so that our decendents will live for as long as possible billions of years in the future.
denying the existence of god or simply juggling the existence/non-existence of it does not make you nihilist.
evolution has given life the love of life. species that didn't care went extinct, we're decended from the species that wanted to live and as a whole we do want to live, we do want to help other members of our society so our society and our species will continue, so that our decendents will live for as long as possible billions of years in the future.
denying the existence of god or simply juggling the existence/non-existence of it does not make you nihilist.
I was referring to the question of existence versus non-existence, and nihilism does factor. If I felt I didn't truly exist, what moves me forward?
what moves you forward? what I just said:
perhaps I don't really understand what you said earlier and what you're asking.
you have kids to create life. to continue a generation. you live to help others and your descendants. whether you agree with that ideology is up to you, but that's how I erased nihilistic thoughts I had when I first began to reject theism. you define your own purpose. when someone asks what is the meaning of life that's up to you to decide.
perhaps I don't really understand what you said earlier and what you're asking.
God can have no Prime Directive. If he exists, he makes all the rules.
Intelligent Design was discussed at great length on these forums. It was roundly debunked. You think you see "a mark left by purposeful design", but just because it looks designed does not mean it was - evolution by natural selection is fully capable of explaining the physiology of a tree or any other organism.
Again, the same logical fallacy that has been mentioned comes in
Technology looks designed
Life looks designed
Technology is designed
Therefore life is also designed?
And again it's easily shown why it's fallacious, for example
The world looks 3d
Avatar looks 3d
The world is physically three-dimensional
Therefore what you see when you watch Avatar is something physically three-dimensional???
As I mentioned earlier, I think that you could make a good argument that even if a higher power existed, if it made it obvious and actively intervened it would be a bad thing. After all, what if you disagreed with God?cantab said:
I chose to be an atheist because it is the only religious ideal that makes sense and is based off of logic. Instead of relying on blind faith, I prefer to rely on more tangible things.
This is flawed thinking. Making people perfect doesn't require them to be puppets. I find things like murder abhorrent, and have never desired to murder anyone. A god could have made people like me in that regard. They would have the capability to murder, but they would never desire to do so no matter what the case, thus preventing murders altogether. Rinse and repeat will several other positive traits and you have perfect people with free will.
Intelligent Design, by the definition of any Christian I've talked to, is not a theory I believe in the slightest. The fact that you jumped to this conclusion in spite of the fact that I talked against Genesis shows very little vigilance on your part.
You've come up with yet another "logical fallacy" that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about for reasons I've explained that you've conveniently ignored. Certain qualities make a personal computer designed by default. I see those qualities in everything most people refer to as nature. I see those qualities because I possess a sense or two that there are no words for. I was diagnosed by a doctor at the age of 10 as being this way. I've already explained why this is not a good argument for a debate, and I've reiterated the fact that this is not a debate thread. Yet you persist. Perhaps the things I have to say are more threatening to your own beliefs than I would have thought.
Regardless, if you choose to keep debating I'll beat you to the punch;
Bacon is delicious.
Bacon is food.
Corn is food.
Corn is delicious.
Do I get my Philosophy PhD now?
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