With Garchomp Now in Uber....

[Seven Deadly Sins]

No, Flygon can't sweep shit. It doesn't hit hard enough, it isn't fast enough, and it isn't durable enough to bulkysweep.

EDIT: I don't want to seem like a jerk, so here's some actual useful reasons that Flygon won't be used even with Outrage. No boosting move means that a ton of stuff walls it silly and kills it with Ice Beam. Not that Ice Beam is necessary, it doesn't have the bulk to survive too many neutral moves either. Its resistances aren't bad, resisting Fire, Rock, and Poison, and being immune to Ground and Electric, but it's neutral to stuff like Surf and Grass Knot, and is also outsped by plenty of stuff.

Furthermore, let's look at the OTHER thing to get STAB Outrage, Kingdra. It has access to Dragon Dance, as well as only having one weakness, Dragon. It can run a mixed set because of its great movepool and decent Special Attack, and it can also benefit from Rain if need be. It's bulkier too, with 75/95/95 defenses, which are by no means bad, and certainly better than Flygon's 80/80/80.

If you're looking for a Dragon in OU that isn't Salamence/Dragonite, Kingdra fits the bill way better than Flygon ever will.

 

[Ampharoshit]

Not to mention Flygon doesn't get Sword Dance or Dragon Dance >_>

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

No, Flygon can't sweep shit. It doesn't hit hard enough, it isn't fast enough, and it isn't durable enough to bulkysweep.

Have you fought any ScarfMences?

Base 100 in Atk and Spd. Anything that can hit 300 or more Spd often times hits a good 75%+ of the metagame before they are hit. Also Flygon gets STAB EQ, which if we remember from our good ol' friend Duggy is pretty leathal with an atk of 284, but good ol' gon gets way more than that.

Also how many pogeys resist QuakeSlide?

Flygon @ Scarf/Band
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- U-Turn
- Crunch/Rock Slide/Dragon Claw/whatever the hell it'd need.

Edit: Also Flygon is only 2 base points lower than Garchomp speedwise... I think that's more than fast enough...

 

[Lee]

Flygon @ Scarf/Band
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- U-Turn
- Crunch/Rock Slide/Dragon Claw/Fire Punch or Blast.

Just a little something for Skarmory and Bronzong.

Flygon can never replace Garchomp in any department and I can't see him getting out of BL anytime soon. A Choice Band set looks quite tempting, but unlike Garchomp his Outrage just doesn't have the raw power to manhandle some of the tougher physical walls. Gliscor, Hippowdon and Donphan for example, are very, very unlikely to be 2HKO'd.

There just isn't a place for Flygon in OU, but I'd expect him to be in the top 10 if a BL ladder is ever introduced.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Just a little something for Skarmory and Bronzong.

Flygon can never replace Garchomp in any department and I can't see him getting out of BL anytime soon. A Choice Band set looks quite tempting, but unlike Garchomp his Outrage just doesn't have the raw power to manhandle some of the tougher physical walls. Gliscor, Hippowdon and Donphan for example, are very, very unlikely to be 2HKO'd.

There just isn't a place for Flygon in OU, but I'd expect him to be in the top 10 if a BL ladder is ever introduced.

If you wanted to get fancy...

Flygon@Life Orb
- Outrage
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power Ice
- Earthquake

How's that for OU, eh?

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I'm thinking of using the following set:

Kingdra @ Life Orb
EVs: 92 HP/252 Atk/164 Spe
Nature: Hasty
Ability: Sniper
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Waterfall
- Draco Meteor

Everyone gives Dragon/Fire all the sexy hype for being a great attacking combination, but Empoleon is the only thing that resists Dragon/Water, and unlike most everything else, Kingdra has the awesome dual STAB on it. Draco Meteor is standard fare for hitting stuff that annoys me. Bronzong and Skarmory can be worn down with repeated Waterfalls (Standard Bronzong gets 2HKOed by +1 Waterfall, while 252 Impish is a neat 3HKO even with Lefties), since Kingdra has decent bulk and resists Gyro Ball. This can sweep well on its own or pave the way for something like Salamence to come in. And while it can be said that Kingdra is pretty inferior, it has a number of really useful things going for it. It only has one weakness, Dragon, which is relatively rare considering that the only things that carry it are other Dragon-types. Unlike Salamence and Dragonite, it's not weak to SR. Unlike Flygon, it has a boosting move to make it more efficient at sweeping. The EVs listed give a little bulk, while hitting 271 speed to outspeed the average DDMence before a DD.

 

[IronGross]

I really don't get why Dragonite is beeing underrated here. Unlike Salamance, it can actually survive a non-STAbed Ice Beam without a Yache. It's (relavently) low speed is taken care by Dragon Dance.

 

[sanjay120]

Also, it gets Superpower. :D

Base 100 in Atk

Exactly.

Ubers Kingdra @ Life Orb
252 Attk/252 SAttk/4 HP -- Mild/Rash/Lonely/Naughty
Outrage
Draco Meteor
Waterfall/Aqua Tail
Ice Beam

Workable? Calcs to come.

EDIT: Fuck yes. Easily 2HKOs max/max+ Another Forme Giratina with Lonely/Naughty. Probable 2HKO with Milld/Rash, definite with SR or any prior damage (and by 'any' I mean at least 1%). 48.27% - 56.93% on max/0 neutral Dialga with Outrage. Groudon poses a problem by taking away rain and therefore speed, but Draco Meteor (65.35% - 76.98%) and Ice Beam (59.41% - 70.05%) dent the bulky 252/0 neutral. Waterfall does 50.27% - 59.34% to Metagross. It survives Scarfogre's Thunder easily, and can take one Meteor Mash from a CB Metagross so if you Outrage on the switchin you might manage to get out.

I don't see any problem other than Lugia and Shedinja. If you really really want to be awesome you can DD but there are things like Groudon and Deoxys-FR that can force you out. I prefer hit and run.

 

[Mekkah]

I really don't get why Dragonite is beeing underrated here. Unlike Salamance, it can actually survive a non-STAbed Ice Beam without a Yache. It's (relavently) low speed is taken care by Dragon Dance.

Salamence can be EVed so that it survives certain Ice Beams as well. ~264 SpAtk KOs 4/0 HP/SpDef Salamence, from the top of my head, and without Garchomp people have less reason to go a lot higher than that. If they do, then Dragonite is likely to be fucked as well.

Did you know Dragonite has 20 more base SpDef, but actually 4 less base HP?

For Dragonite's Spd to be taken care of by Dragon Dance, it needs to invest a lot into Spd, where the difference is also 20. Salamence can get enough Spd in one turn to outspace certain Choice Scarfers, whereas Dragonite needs Jolly plus lots to even beat Aerodactyl after a Dragon Dance, let alone Scarfers and Deoxys-S.

 

[Olie]

Not to mention Flygon doesn't get Sword Dance or Dragon Dance >_>

But CB and Scarf sets don't run Swords Dance or Dragon Dance.
This is what Flygon looks to be best at.

 

[Smeargle]

What really bugs me is that Garchomp is becoming an uber, which will change the metagame-while pokemom platinum comes out. These two things will have a huge effect upon the metagame, and will lead it in a completley new direction. For a Garchomp replacement, an in interesting one is salamance, who will be capable of outraging in Platinum, making dragonite completley useless.

 

[BlueAizu]

Don't think Dragonite will be useless just because Salamence gets Outrage. Dragonite can still use plenty of moves that Salamence can't, such as Focus Punch, Heal Bell, Roar, Haze, Agility, Light Screen, and Safeguard. Dragonite is also a bit bulkier than Salamence as well, despite not having Intimidate.

Also, nothing can replace Garchomp. Salamence can do something similar to Garchomp, but in the end, Garchomp is his own Pokemon, and nothing, and I mean NOTHING can truly replace him. Not even Flygon.

 

[storm]

Yeah im pissed. I havent been on here for two months(or playing pokemon) and i come back on hearing garchomp is banned from Ou. Whats even worse i hear it was because of the dangerous yache berry sword dancing set and ive never used thats et yet =/ and maybe never will. Only garchomp ive used is scarf.
Awell bring on the deoxys-e abuse!!!

I think dd mence will become dangerous with outrage.

 

[Raj]

Dragonite is not useless. I provided an appropriate set that will most likely be "The" Dragonite of Platinum.

Dragonite @ Life Orb
Naughty
170 Att/ 124 Sp/216 Sp Att
~Superpower
~TBolt
~Ice Beam/Fire Blast
~Draco Meteor

Superpower against standard Blissey- 101-118% OHKO
Thunderbolt to Bulky Gyara- 125-148% OHKO
Ice Beam to Gliscor (no Sp Def/252 HP)- 172-203% OHKO
Draco Meteor to Zapdos (252 HP)- 75-89% 2HKO (1 w/ SR up)
Draco Meteor to Celebi (252 HP)- 66- 77% 2HKO
Fire Blast to same Celebi- 72-84% 2HKO
Draco Meteor to Cresselia- 55-65% Meh..
Thunderbolt to Vaporeon- 56-66% (add 10% to each for Draco Meteor) 2HKO
Ice Beam to Hippowdon (252 HP)- 75-89% 2HKO
Draco Meteor to same Hippowdon-83-98% 2HKO (1 with Stealth Rocks up)
Fire Blast/Tbolt to Skarm- no need to calculate OHKO

Also, ScarfGon is not to be underestimated.
Outrage, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Crunch are deadly at 328 Att (492 with STAB options) and 448 Speed. While everyone was using SD Chomp I used this to decimate teams (literally, except Dragon Claw over Outrage obviously).

 

[sanjay120]

Ah, the CrushKing of Dragonites. Just a moment ago I was trying to make this set and failed by forgetting Ice Beam and Thunderbolt. You don't really need Ice Beam, Draco Meteor takes care of Hippowdon and Gliscor.

I was under the impression that no one used 252/252 Bold Blissey anymore, what's the standard set? And wouldn't Lonely be preferred over Naughty, since Dragonite has more special resists than physical and people will try to fire Ice Beams at it?

 

[Fiskebollen]

Dragonite has always had an advantage over other dragons in two departements:

Support and fighting moves.

With it getting Superpower, this rings even more true.

While DDnite will perhaps not be as popular (note, that while it's outrage/DD combo is no longer unique, Fire Punch is still better than Fire Fang), but I can't imagine Dragonite being less popular overall. With superpower, scarf/bandnite will maintain it's advantage over mence. While weaker than Focus Punch, Superpower doesn't have a sorry tendency of failing when hit, easing prediction. It also - as dragonites pointed out - make a mixed dragonite even more interesting.

 

[Raj]

Not only is it the "Crushking" of Dragonite, but also better than BOAH as it doesn't rely on Subs and Focus Punch. As for Naughty/Lonely, that's really juat personal preference. Ice Beam is there so you're not just Draco Meteroring and switching each turn. Hopefully Dnite won't decline in usage too much- it just wants a hug!

 

[gabriel]

My question is: Now that Garchomp is Uber, how useful Hidden Power Ice is on fire pokemon?

To illustrate the discussion, I'll post a variation of Blaziken's Scarf set that motivated me to think about this subject.

Blaziken @Choice Scarf
Naughty Nature
252 Atk/Spe, 6 Sp.A
- Overheat/Blaze Kick
- Reversal/ Sky Uppercut
- Hidden Power Grass/Thunder Punch
- Stone Edge

. Stone Edge 2KO non-Bulky Mence (after intimidate)
. Stone Edge 2KO Dragonite
. Stone 2KO BulkyDos without intimidate
. Stone Edge 2KO BulkyDos after an intimidate if SR is active

Thunder Punch/HP Grass depends on what you hate more: Swampert or Starmie. Both are 2KOed.

Overheat is preferable as its OHKO Skarm (Blaze Kick is a 2KO) and fits the hit and run style of choice sets.

Reversal + STAB + 372 Atk + Choice Scarf = late game powerhouse. Sky Uppercut is there if you're worried about an early game fighting move.

Basically, Blaziken screw its counters and pose as a late game sweep without HP Ice. He's not the only fire type that doesn't need HP Ice anymore with Chomp's banishment.

If it was rare to see an Infernape with HP Ice, now I think it should be even less commom. So does Heatran (he used HP Ice on Scarf sets to revenge kill dragons, but Mence/Nite can be weakned by SR and finished by Dragon Pulse, now it can save a moveslot to HP Electric/Grass, if needed).

Other than that, HP Ice lowers fire types coverage, assuming you can handle dragons, of course. Going ice means you'll be helpless against water, other fire, and some rock type, so you're better with Electric/Grass/Ground.

On the other hand, there are some fire pokemon that still need HP Ice. Ninetales, Moltres and Houndoom come in mind. Other than Will-o-Wisp, they're helpless against Mence/Nite/Dos.

Always a tough choice, but, in general, HP Ice usage will probably decrease, specially on the fire pokemon mentioned above.

What do you think?

 

[Raj]

HP Grass will be the new HP Ice, since everything got Heat Wave and Earth Power. At least, my Zapdos will run T-Bolt, Heat Wave, HP Grass, ? and my Blaziken will run Super Power, Overheat, Vacuum Wave, HP Grass....

 

[Bogmire]

HP Grass will be the new HP Ice, since everything got Heat Wave and Earth Power. At least, my Zapdos will run T-Bolt, Heat Wave, HP Grass, ? and my Blaziken will run Super Power, Overheat, Vacuum Wave, HP Grass....

zapdos might run metal sound in the 4th slot. it's only other option is extrasensory which has crap coverage.

hp grass will become more popular, but it won't replace hp ice entirely. Magnezone and Jolteon for example need it for Gliscor. zapdos can 2HKO salamence with tbolt so hp ice isn't necessary anymore. Infernape will still use hp ice on a mixed set because of it getting grass knot.

 

[Ramiestar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te06xuxP56E

It's official. Salamence can learn Outrage in Platinum. Garchomp will need to be re-tested, as Salamence can come in, use Intimidate, then survive an Outrage then DD up and Outrage back for the kill. (This is assuming Salamence comes in to replace a fainted Pokémon, and that Garchomp hasn't used Swords Dance--it's using Outrage without any Attack boosts)

Also, many others will learn Outrage too, as it'll be a move tutor move. So that'll dent 'Chomp if not used properly, but like I said, it'll have to be re-tested...

 

[merubin]

Attn all people talking about Garchomp retesting: Please, PLEASE read the Order of Operations in the Policy Review forum. It's already on the slate. Stop bringing it up.

 

[Olie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te06xuxP56E

It's official. Salamence can learn Outrage in Platinum. Garchomp will need to be re-tested, as Salamence can come in, use Intimidate, then survive an Outrage then DD up and Outrage back for the kill. (This is assuming Salamence comes in to replace a fainted Pokémon, and that Garchomp hasn't used Swords Dance--it's using Outrage without any Attack boosts)

Also, many others will learn Outrage too, as it'll be a move tutor move. So that'll dent 'Chomp if not used properly, but like I said, it'll have to be re-tested...

Yeah, it's been in the platinum thread for about a week now. Besides, Chomp is Uber now, so unless you plan to Use mence in ubers... where I doubt we'll soon be finding it, then there is no point to be finding new ways to Kill Garchomp.

 

[gorm]

Garchomp will need to be re-tested, as Salamence can come in, use Intimidate, then survive an Outrage then DD up and Outrage back for the kill. (This is assuming Salamence comes in to replace a fainted Pokémon, and that Garchomp hasn't used Swords Dance--it's using Outrage without any Attack boosts)
.

wow a revenge killer that beats garchomp this changes everything!

 

[SithLord]

It's official. Salamence can learn Outrage in Platinum. Garchomp will need to be re-tested, as Salamence can come in, use Intimidate, then survive an Outrage then DD up and Outrage back for the kill. (This is assuming Salamence comes in to replace a fainted Pokémon, and that Garchomp hasn't used Swords Dance--it's using Outrage without any Attack boosts)

Jolly -1 Garchomp Outrage vs. 6 HP/0 Def Salamence: 94.58% - 112.05%

Jolly -1 Garchomp Outrage vs. 172 HP/0 Def Salamence: 83.73% - 99.20%

How can it switch into the Outrage in the first place?