Stealth Rock needs to be taken into account as well. If you are using the bulkier Salamence, you'll end up dying no matter what.
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With Garchomp Now in Uber....
- Thread starter andreds
- Start date
With the advent of platium I belive that salamence will take garchomps place as the most ou, as outrage after a d dance is nothing to laugh at especially scince salamence can pull it off beter than dragonite can with a supperior speed wich means addement is the nature of choice.
my slamence currenly has outrage as a result from platium transfer.
my slamence currenly has outrage as a result from platium transfer.
But Life Orb DDmence has no way of avoiding death by Ice attacks. An Ice Beam off approximately 240 SpA will kill a 100% Salamence.
Yache Chomp can survive almost any Ice Move, and then you've got Sand Veil too...
Porygon2, Cressy, and Swampert can all OHKO Salamence without being OHKOed back, and the former two have recovery.
Yache Chomp can survive almost any Ice Move, and then you've got Sand Veil too...
Porygon2, Cressy, and Swampert can all OHKO Salamence without being OHKOed back, and the former two have recovery.
DDmence is easier to wall, but not easier to kill.
I propose that Garchomp be let back in after Platinum's release on Shoddy. Just to give him another chance.
I think DDNite will be a bigger problem - its bulkier than sala, and has every move it needs to survive.
Chain Chomp = DDNite with SuperPower - Attack Drop
Sub Chomp with a brightpowder was to be banned anyway (evasion clause).
Yache Chomp = DDNite with a heavy defense investment.
I propose that Garchomp be let back in after Platinum's release on Shoddy. Just to give him another chance.
I think DDNite will be a bigger problem - its bulkier than sala, and has every move it needs to survive.
Chain Chomp = DDNite with SuperPower - Attack Drop
Sub Chomp with a brightpowder was to be banned anyway (evasion clause).
Yache Chomp = DDNite with a heavy defense investment.
Nothing can replace chomp. Outrage DD mence? Yea, he is good but not even close to chomp. Ok, with a Life Orb he has more attack than chomp after a SD, but with SR weak and some 100% counters, i'm unable to see mence getting dangerous like chomp.
I mean, Outrage mence is dangerous, but not counterless, and with SR weak, you can't bring him early game to reveal the opponent "counter" (because even without 100% counter, early game chomp can't sweep, maybe kill one mon, but he will hardly sweep in the early game). More than a late game sweep, i used chomp to reveal the opponent steels and to turn the tides of the battle in the early game, putting the opponent on the defensive play.
BTW, i don't see why Outrage mence is being so overhyped. It's not like he can kill his counters with outrage (ok, now he can OHKO starmie).
tl ;dr version: nothing can replace chomp.
Now, into the metagame changes:
CM jirachi is getting really dangerous, sweeping some teams without the fear of a Stabed EQ.
Gengar now don't need to carry HP ice, and with that free moveslot, he is free to use some other move (taunt, destiny bond, substitute, or even hp fire).
Lucario imo is the new top threat (no, not the new chomp).
Heatran is even better now. Not exactly because the chompless game, but because the rise of some mons (Lucario, Jirachi...) that is caused by chomp's absence. Scarftran is a top revenge killer and a resource for many resistences, and imo he is almost a must on any offensive team.
Now, into a mon that i love to use in the chompless metagame:
SDEF oriented Rhyperior: He counter Jirachi (without grass knot, of course), heatran (he can even take some earth powers), DD TTar (switches in a DD/Stone Edge and OHKO him with EQ), DD mence (Read TTar, except the Stone egde part, and replace the EQ OHKO with a Stone Edge OHKO).
With Megahorn/Stone Edge/Earthquake/Swords Dance, he causes a lot of problems.
Why Swords Dance? Because without that he can't really hurt any bulkymon. Skarmory is 2HKOed by a SD stone edge, and is forced to whirlwind you (roost? yea, EQ will really hurt you if you mispredict), Cresselia is easily 2HKOed and can't really hurt you (grass knot can, but hey, who uses that besides me?). Blissey can stall you if you lacks swords dance and so on.
Oh, and fun-fact: Rhyperior survives a CELEBI GRASS KNOT 100% of the time and OHKO him with megahorn (not that i'm going to let rhyperior take that grass knot, that just shows how Bulky Rhyperior is).
And like every other thing that i post, srry for poor grammar and things like that :p
EDIT: Syberia, this depends on that ability chomp would have if it did not have sand veil. Imagine it with, huh, intimidate?
I mean, Outrage mence is dangerous, but not counterless, and with SR weak, you can't bring him early game to reveal the opponent "counter" (because even without 100% counter, early game chomp can't sweep, maybe kill one mon, but he will hardly sweep in the early game). More than a late game sweep, i used chomp to reveal the opponent steels and to turn the tides of the battle in the early game, putting the opponent on the defensive play.
BTW, i don't see why Outrage mence is being so overhyped. It's not like he can kill his counters with outrage (ok, now he can OHKO starmie).
tl ;dr version: nothing can replace chomp.
Now, into the metagame changes:
CM jirachi is getting really dangerous, sweeping some teams without the fear of a Stabed EQ.
Gengar now don't need to carry HP ice, and with that free moveslot, he is free to use some other move (taunt, destiny bond, substitute, or even hp fire).
Lucario imo is the new top threat (no, not the new chomp).
Heatran is even better now. Not exactly because the chompless game, but because the rise of some mons (Lucario, Jirachi...) that is caused by chomp's absence. Scarftran is a top revenge killer and a resource for many resistences, and imo he is almost a must on any offensive team.
Now, into a mon that i love to use in the chompless metagame:
SDEF oriented Rhyperior: He counter Jirachi (without grass knot, of course), heatran (he can even take some earth powers), DD TTar (switches in a DD/Stone Edge and OHKO him with EQ), DD mence (Read TTar, except the Stone egde part, and replace the EQ OHKO with a Stone Edge OHKO).
With Megahorn/Stone Edge/Earthquake/Swords Dance, he causes a lot of problems.
Why Swords Dance? Because without that he can't really hurt any bulkymon. Skarmory is 2HKOed by a SD stone edge, and is forced to whirlwind you (roost? yea, EQ will really hurt you if you mispredict), Cresselia is easily 2HKOed and can't really hurt you (grass knot can, but hey, who uses that besides me?). Blissey can stall you if you lacks swords dance and so on.
Oh, and fun-fact: Rhyperior survives a CELEBI GRASS KNOT 100% of the time and OHKO him with megahorn (not that i'm going to let rhyperior take that grass knot, that just shows how Bulky Rhyperior is).
And like every other thing that i post, srry for poor grammar and things like that :p
EDIT: Syberia, this depends on that ability chomp would have if it did not have sand veil. Imagine it with, huh, intimidate?
Salamence also lacks STAB Earthquake. Really, mence is a great poke, but there were just so many things that went into making garchomp great. You can't pick out any 1.
Huh, Gormenghast, no need to use a careful one.
You can still use a Adamant one and invest something like 40 EVs into your attack.
Jirachi with 256 Satk using psychic after a CM, during the sandstorm:
Raw damage:124 135 147
Percentages:28.57% 31.11% 33.87%
256 Satk celebi grass knot, during a sandstorm, against a 434/200 Rhyperior:
Raw damage:333 360 396
Percentages:76.73% 82.95% 91.24%
Forget about my "edit²" in the other post. I did the calculations without solid rock.
You can still use a Adamant one and invest something like 40 EVs into your attack.
Jirachi with 256 Satk using psychic after a CM, during the sandstorm:
Raw damage:124 135 147
Percentages:28.57% 31.11% 33.87%
256 Satk celebi grass knot, during a sandstorm, against a 434/200 Rhyperior:
Raw damage:333 360 396
Percentages:76.73% 82.95% 91.24%
Forget about my "edit²" in the other post. I did the calculations without solid rock.
Well I have done some testing with Scarfed Outrage mence directly replacing my scarf chomp on one of my teams and so far it feels exactly like having garchomp, it has won me some games already. Im not saying its exactly like garchomp, its chibi-garchomp so to say. It can be t-waved, huge SR weakness but its still a huge threat
Only trouble is getting the sandstorm for Rhyperior if you plan on starting it yourself. Both Hippodown and Tyranitar are hard to fit in the same team as Rhyperior if you want to have some balanced resistances.
The way I see it, it may be a good thing that Outrage/DD is no longer unique for Dragonite (outside of Ubers), as people will perhaps discover how versatile the dragon is.
Why on earth more people aren't using subpunchnite for example, is beyond me...
Garchomp can´t be replaced, but Salamence gets pretty close, IMO.
Salamence@Life Orb
Naughty; 120 Atk, 252 Sp.Atk, 136 Speed
Outrage
Fire Blast
Earthquake
Draco Meteor
This is the set I plan on using - the new MixMence if I do say so myself. Outrage + Draco Meteor each do 42% minimum, 46% on average to Max HP / 333 Defenses Cresselia, which is more than the old MixMence can boast. Outrage still does a number on Blissey, and steels + Heatran are covered with the other 2 attacks.
If not, just slap a Choice Band onto it, which should be more than enough.
Salamence@Life Orb
Naughty; 120 Atk, 252 Sp.Atk, 136 Speed
Outrage
Fire Blast
Earthquake
Draco Meteor
This is the set I plan on using - the new MixMence if I do say so myself. Outrage + Draco Meteor each do 42% minimum, 46% on average to Max HP / 333 Defenses Cresselia, which is more than the old MixMence can boast. Outrage still does a number on Blissey, and steels + Heatran are covered with the other 2 attacks.
If not, just slap a Choice Band onto it, which should be more than enough.
Almost nobody has said this, but Garchomps absence has opened the door for Suicune to retake it's throne as king of OU. Garchomp was really the only thing that made Calm/Rest cune impractical, since the standard garchomp can kill the sturdiest suicunes in three hits or less. Without Garchomp to switch in on the sleepy turns, suicune has been a dominant force in this new meta.
Having 404 hp or a fighting STAB have always been requirements for me to use a sub/punch set on something.
Frankly, I was disappointed. I liked the land shark, but yes it did drastically change my team. In particular, I guess it changed my walling methods, and I'm sure that many will agree with this. I needed 2 or 3 walls designed almost specifically to stop Chomp per team. Now that it's gone I can broaden my horizons, get a more offensively oriented team going, and add some walls to stop sweepers that would wipe the floor with my team bofore (i.e Dusknoir for Gyarados)
garchomp being gone doesnt change much, all the same ou pokemon are still seen everywhere. Though i will say skymin,salamence with outrage, metagross with trick, and scarf heatran seem to be really popular with the platinum changes.
Yeah but some people are arguing to throw scarftran on the suspect ladder.
rofl who
also what purpose is this thread serving it refers to a pretty small portion of the metagame that doesnt even exist anymore
I've never had any trouble with any Chomps. I cannot for the life of me understand what all the fuss is about.
Sand Veil makes no difference to the argument, you cannot factor luck into a mathematical formulae, or it would turn into trial and error.
The only competitively viable pokemon with less versatility than Chomp is Wobbuffet. Chomp can only use physical moves, and its item can be discovered VERY easily.
So what if everyone uses it? That says more about the person than the pokemon. Other pokemon can sweep teams too, you know.
There are, in my opinion, ways to determine an Uber. Raw stats (BST 670+, excluding Slaking and Regigigas). Mew is up there because it is so versatile, you never know what it will do next. Celebi, Heatran and the Pseudo-Legendaries have huge weaknesses to common attacking types. Jirachi and Land Forme have pitiful movepools. Deoxys has highly unbalanced stats, so it is up there. Darkrai and Manaphy are both versatile and have moves that concur with their abilities (Dark Void and Bad Dreams, Rest and Hydration). The Lati twins are versatile offensively and defensively and have the Soul Dew to cement their place. Cresselia is overshadowed by psychic brethren that do what it does better. Finally, Wobbufffet is there because it does not function ordinarily, it is more a one-off tool. It is not a sweeper, nor a tank, nor a utility, nor a revenge killer, it is just a blue blob that can take a troublesome pokemon down with it, like Azelf.
Even if you do not agree with me, mark my words - Gamefreak is not going to let this uppity little Pseudo-Legendary get away into the tier it does not belong to. Count on it.
Sand Veil makes no difference to the argument, you cannot factor luck into a mathematical formulae, or it would turn into trial and error.
The only competitively viable pokemon with less versatility than Chomp is Wobbuffet. Chomp can only use physical moves, and its item can be discovered VERY easily.
So what if everyone uses it? That says more about the person than the pokemon. Other pokemon can sweep teams too, you know.
There are, in my opinion, ways to determine an Uber. Raw stats (BST 670+, excluding Slaking and Regigigas). Mew is up there because it is so versatile, you never know what it will do next. Celebi, Heatran and the Pseudo-Legendaries have huge weaknesses to common attacking types. Jirachi and Land Forme have pitiful movepools. Deoxys has highly unbalanced stats, so it is up there. Darkrai and Manaphy are both versatile and have moves that concur with their abilities (Dark Void and Bad Dreams, Rest and Hydration). The Lati twins are versatile offensively and defensively and have the Soul Dew to cement their place. Cresselia is overshadowed by psychic brethren that do what it does better. Finally, Wobbufffet is there because it does not function ordinarily, it is more a one-off tool. It is not a sweeper, nor a tank, nor a utility, nor a revenge killer, it is just a blue blob that can take a troublesome pokemon down with it, like Azelf.
Even if you do not agree with me, mark my words - Gamefreak is not going to let this uppity little Pseudo-Legendary get away into the tier it does not belong to. Count on it.