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I really like 2v2 as a whole and im hoping to see it grow and get more of the recognition it deserves, and while having the format in this year's world cup would be beneficial for 2v2 this truly isnt the way to go about it.
A second SM slot is guaranteed to have qualified and experienced players, sadly its not the same for 2v2 and is less likely to have its slots filled. Variety in the form of a different format is not a quota that is required simply because it follows a similar premise.
As opposed to how DPP or ADV has players? Is there some non-public setting where people have played DPP or ADV to the extent that there are enough players so that teams wouldn't struggle to have players that I'm missing?
The mains not signing up point: I understand that the tour would benefit from more sign-ups, but there are more important points than just wanting players. Most 2v2 players also play 1v1, because they got introduced to 2v2 through 1v1. Would it be better for the tour if those players only played 2v2? I don't think so, since they provide more for the team. Also, only ADV, DPP, and BW would be entirely excluded from the line-up if 1 of them got replaced, as the others have more than 1 slot.
It looks like to me that you are talking about the 2v2 players who also play 1v1 which is weird. If they are able to play or offer support in other tiers that are included I dont see how this strengthens your point. This simply means that they can fill another slot or at the very least fill as sub and offer teambuilding and support for the rest of the team.
No but it is highly likely that a large portion of those who have great experience in 2v2 would be playing a different tier as opposed to playing 2v2 itself.
The regions maybe struggling to have 2v2 players point: 2v2 Doubles has enough resources to mitigate that if it happens, in addition to the availability of joining the constant tournaments being held in the 2v2 chatroom on PS! for practice.
Resouces alone does not automatically make new slots and wouldn't give as much metagame knowledge as what would be needed if one is to play well. You are not guaranteed a great slot if whoever fills it has simply looked at the resources a few times and gone from there without much experience that would actually be needeed.
Just a couple points quickly since this has picked up a bit again:
Since last PL, DPP has seen huge levels of development, it's seen a large growth in playerbase and I would argue it was one of the more competitive tiers in the most recent iteration of PL. I think removing it at this point should be pretty much entirely off the table, especially considering the fact that in all likelihood we're going to be looking at 6 teams x 10 slots.
One suggestion thats so far really seemed to go under the radar but I think is very worthy of discussion is Lancer's suggestion of a Bo3 format spanning different gens. This could either be in the format of a Bo3o3 as he initially proposed, potentially covering SWSH-ORAS or SWSH and one selection per player or some other combination.
However, and I think it was Kaif who I was speaking to about this, also raised the potential of a Bo5o1 which would put a bit less of a strain on tembuilding (9 teams over 3 tiers every week could very easily be too taxing) and allow for a wide spread of gameplay which could be very interesting from both a player and spectator's perspective. To my mind this would have two potential options in terms of spreads, the first and most obvious is 8-4, representing the gens already in wc, however I could also see gens 7-3 (à la classic) being possible as this allows for some adv gameplay, without being too difficult to find a player for or support (one game a week at maximum) and realistically all the top adv players are players who can perform well in other tiers as well.
Now this concept isn't hugely well fleshed out and finalised but I definitely think it has potential. It's unlikely to be difficult to support with most if not all of the tiers included in it already being built for by each team. It definitely IMO has more potential for collaboration between team members than other suggestions (notably ADV/2v2) which probably isn't something that a huge number of people care about, but I do genuinely believe that that interaction and teamwork is a vital component of team tours and should be encouraged wherever possible. I also think that it'd be a really interesting slot to watch, and it manages to avoid the major issues we've seen raised against both ADV and 2v2.
Finally I think that if we are going down the road of 10 slots, we really need to see more than just swsh to dpp, I don't think ORAS can realistically support a second slot, which would probably mean (Unless two dpp slots, I swear its more viable than it seems) 7 SM/SWSH which honestly just sounds fucking awful and I don't think there are many people would disagree with that assessment. That pretty much necessitates having another tier be it adv or 2v2 or this.
Bo5o1 with Gens 3 through 7 is probably the best idea I've heard so far and it solves a lot of problems. This, of course, is only applicable if we end up going for 6x10 (which I hope we don't) and would have to fight it out with 2v2 to make it in.
We could also make it Bo7o1 with 2v2 and SS included but that would be too much imo.
Still, I'm on board with the idea
bo7o1 would suck bcz not a lot of players can play even 5 tiers at a high level which is why I hesitated on bo5o1 but I definitely think it's better than bo3o3 (5 teams per oppo vs 9 teams per oppo)
is that why we could comfortably fit in 8+subs w/ 8 teams with average to good teams 2 years ago and now we're trying to different mix regions to fit a worse pool?
So, in my opinion DPP has the most competitive player pool, drafted and split into regions. imo, removing DPP shouldnt be really discussed anymore, after how well the tier did in PL and after delivering such good matches. The idea of a bo5o1 sounds good, but for me as a DPP player isnt really enough. All the other valid old gens getting an own bo5 and DPP just being included in one battle that might not even be played.
As opposed to how DPP or ADV has players? Is there some non-public setting where people have played DPP or ADV to the extent that there are enough players so that teams wouldn't struggle to have players that I'm missing?
The census results are stagnant at this point, so let's take a look at what we can expect for the tournament, as far as the bulk of signups will go. For the sake of avoiding subjectivity, these are solely the results given from the census itself, without going under any assumption over whether or not someone who didn't take the census (many people) signs up.
US Central
1. HeavyStorming
2. Purpleleinad
3. BW Tyler
4. HalfNinjaman6000
5. Satanic Beast
6. LittleRunnerXC
7. smely socks
8. Jirachirelia
9. THIS MACHINE
10. Lkjc
US East
1. Lost Heros
2. Jamez155
3. BlondeSasukeUchiha
4. pazza
5. CashKP
6. Tol
7. pqs
8. Alakazam
9. Pokesartoolcay
10. Anime Sans
11. Domshawm
12. SUSTENANCE_1
13. DMPancake
14. Playmaster11111
15. Marshme1to
16. zioziotrip
17. Gin Argent
18. Mishlef
19. Sanshokuinsumireko
20. Smajet
21. quakins
22. lvl100Blaziken
US West
1. Eriey
2. dom
3. zxgzxg
4. Yech
5. nolenot
6. Le Creme Brule
7. dragonmirror
8. 1234567980I
9. King Leo V
10. maxy1991991
11. Kowasabii
12. Pisxel
13. Gym socks
14. Elo Bandit
15. Boat(phiwings99)
16. Scraftionite
17. Waylaid
18. Synonimous
19. Joker 1v1
Under the assumption that we go with 8 slots 8 teams, this indicates that each team from last year, besides Central Europe (rip Dez), would at least be making the minimum player count, with 8 players + 2 subs. This all being without taking into account other factors like states shifting to US Central and players who will almost certainly sign up but haven't taken the census (Lancer, XSC, Freddy, Nalei, etc). Bear in mind, the census came to just over 100 entrants, while, comparatively, last year's WC signups capped at about 140, last year's PL signups capped at about 140, and this year's PL signups capped at about 200. There's no reason to suspect that we won't get well over 140 signups for the coming WC with this in mind.
A 6 team compromise should not be necessary, so long as changes made to each team are of equal value or taking away from teams with a surplus of signups. Because of this, a 10 slot format is also less viable, at least, in my opinion.
For the time being, I'm mainly considering two different options, being either:
Red = Western Europe
Blue = France + Italy
Green = Eastern Europe
If necessary, I'd be willing to move Belgium over to Eastern Europe.
My aim with these teams is four different factors:
A) making competitive teams
B) making teams of people reasonably close to each other
C) making teams of people who like each other
D) making teams of enough people
I feel that this is the best I could do, when it comes to trying to balance out these factors. If anyone has opinions they'd like to share or insight I may not have been aware to, I'm all ears (ie, discussion for teams is now open).
going off census central + canada would have 24 players. (although people like crucify,ryy,nalei,zio,Freddy,Gareth,Levi,Ninjadog) aren't including in that census that's a way bigger team than the other US regions. Central itself has a ton of players, I don't see the reason to add another pretty big region to it.
Can we all take a moment to look at how stupidly broken census asia is?
ASIA
SS Bo7: Derppedeath
SS Bo5: The Thunderbirds
SS Bo5: Raj.Shoot
SM: aqh
SM2: lmmi 1v1
ORAS: FrostyIcelad
BW: Kaif
DPP: edudittA
But for real this is.. really bad. 8 teams cannot work if you’re tackling this balancewise. Of course I'd think 7 teams would be better since you can do Asia + CONE but that doesn't seem to be a viable option either.
Here’s what I’d change from last year:
Give Benelux + UK Germany.
Merge East EU with Asia.
Split CONE. I know, this isn’t something desirable, but then again, 7 teams cannot work and Asia is bottom seed lock.
Give Canada to Central and OCE to West.
Pros: No one singular team is stupidly bad.
Cons: Canada + Central might be too big.
Can we all take a moment to look at how stupidly broken census asia is?
ASIA
SS Bo7: Derppedeath
SS Bo5: The Thunderbirds
SS Bo5: Raj.Shoot
SM: aqh
SM2: lmmi 1v1
ORAS: FrostyIcelad
BW: Kaif
DPP: edudittA
But for real this is.. really bad. 8 teams cannot work if you’re tackling this balancewise. Of course I'd think 7 teams would be better since you can do Asia + CONE but that doesn't seem to be a viable option either.
Here’s what I’d change from last year:
Give Benelux + UK Germany.
Merge East EU with Asia.
Split CONE. I know, this isn’t something desirable, but then again, 7 teams cannot work and Asia is bottom seed lock.
Give Canada to Central and OCE to West.
Pros: No one singular team is stupidly bad.
Cons: Canada + Central might be too big.
Topics I want to discuss:
- Division of Europe
- amount of teams
- the line-up
Division of Europe:
Europe seems to be a problem once again. (Coastal/Central/) Europe has won 3 WC's of 1v1 so far despite many (failed) attempts to nerf the area. To me the ideas I've seen don't make much sense when you look at the results from North Europe and Asia in past World Cups. Therefore I will distinguish 3 areas that are competitive, reasonably close, likeable and with enough people.
- The first team will be Frita + Spain and Portugal. France and Italy have been paired for a while now so team cohesion is already there. Adding Spain and Portugal won't influence their team much and it also makes geographically sense to put these countries on Frita.
- The second team will be UK + Benelux + Germany. Benelux + Germany have been paired together for 3 years and it wouldn't make sense to split those countries as it would be a loss of fun and team cohesion. Also, Benelux + Germany doesn't have enough 1v1 main players to be self sufficient. Therefore the best solution I could find is adding UK. This will make this team viable and it will make sure they don't have to ask for non-1v1 mainers to join the team. It's also logical on a geographical scale.
- The third team might upset people but it generally is a very logical idea. I've read many complaints about Asia not being a good team, therefore I'd like to add Asia to Eastern Europe, which contains the countries located in Europe that haven't been mentioned above. Not only will this team be able to fill all their slots, it will also make their team better. Not to forget that Russia connects Europe to Asia, which marks the point of teams being relatively close.
Amount of teams:
While the way I divided Europe might seem crazy, it will in fact influence the amount of teams in total (seven teams instead of eight). I don't have a solution for this now, but it seems that there's also a discussion going on about CONE and Central US. Maybe those could pair up too to make six teams. There's gonna be people complaining about this so I won't go much further into that. I suggest there will be six teams, though I'd like to hear some other solutions for that if there is anyone who agrees with me on the division of Europe.
The Line-up:
With six teams it's obvious that I'd like to see a line-up of 10 tiers as this will allow other generations of 1v1 to be explored even more. In my opinion these are the ones that should be included:
SSbo7
SSbo5
SSbo5
SMbo5
SMbo5
ORASbo5
BWbo5
DPPbo5
ADVbo5
2v2bo3
This line-up will satisfy the majority of the 1v1 community as it is the same line-up as 1v1PL but there are more tiers to be explored. Gen8 is the most recent tier of Pokemon and therefore 3 slots should be acceptable. I've heard some saying there should be 4 SS slots but the fact that SS isn't liked as much as other generations wouldn't make it more fun. Gen7 however, is where the majority of veterans would want to play. 2 SM slots will therefore satisfy those who have been part of the community for longer than a year. I haven't played much gen61v1 myself but I've heard that it is not liked a lot. 1 ORAS slot should therefore be enough. The same goes for gen51v1. DPP is a tier that is currently developing a lot, it wouldn't make sense to somehow throw it in the bin this tour. As for ADV and 2v2, there seems to be a division in what tier the line-up should contain. I'd say why not both? This way ADV can be developed and explored and the 2v2 community would have a reason to join too.
Could we reach a consensus on teams? That'd be great. 8 x 8 and 6 x 10 are quite obvious, but what else?
Here are my thoughts:
8 Teams
Obvious teams:
US East
US West
France + Italy
US Central + Latam
CONE should stay CONE. There's really no reason to split it in 8, and they've had nice chem for the last few years.
Asia, as much as a bottom seed lock that it would be, has to be by itself. Although this goes against the "concept of having balanced teams" as anyone who's looked at Asia on for more than 6 seconds can see, it keeps the original norm
On splitting Europe: What Rosa has stated makes the most sense, and I'll just paste it here for clarification:
Not only does this keep the norm, but its decently balanced (although Outer EU is pretty obviously the less favored team on paper)
US East
US West
France + Italy
US Central + LatAM
Outer Europe
Eastern Europe
Goals Achieved (3/4): A) making competitive teams
B) making teams of people reasonably close to each other
C) making teams of people who like each other
D) making teams of enough people
6 teams
Obvious teams:
US East
France + Italy
My proposed teams:
Outer Europe (Benelux UK, Spain, Portugal, and the like) + Germany:
This allows the region to achieve 10 slots quite well, along with allowing my other proposed team to be balanced)
Asia + East EU (-Germany)
Not only does this solve the elephant in the room that is the state of Asia, but the two regions' players don't really have beef, so that's nice.
Now we have the situation that is splitting CONE, here's what I propose:
West + OCE and Canada + Central or
Canada + West, while putting OCE with Asia + EEU- I dislike this one myself, but nonetheless, still a possibility if this route is taken.
US East
US Central + Canada
US West + OCE
Outer Europe + Germany
Asia + East EU (-Germany)
Goals Achieved (3.5/4)
A) making competitive teams B) making teams of people reasonably close to each other This could be iffy with EEU + Asia but that's really it.
C) making teams of people who like each other
D) making teams of enough people
What about playoffs?
Someone mentioned this in 1v1 Room, don't know who (prob zio)-
"(Winner of #2 vs #3) vs #1" Finals
Agree or disagree? Share your thoughts. I much prefer 6, but 8 is still a pretty good option (besides you know, asia). As always, thanks for reading and have a nice day.
