Metagame XY Doubles OU (VR Post #2, Samples Post #3)


my favorite poem was the one i read to youuuuuuuuu
is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
RBTT Champion

Art by the amazing GenOne!

This thread is dedicated to information and discussion about the Generation 6 Doubles Metagame, XY Doubles OU

Play Restrictions
Pokémon Restrictions
Players cannot use the following Pokémon:
Move Restrictions
Players cannot use the following moves:
Players cannot use the following moves on the same team:
  • Gravity and sleep moves with below one hundred accuracy
Item Restrictions
Players cannot use the following items:
Unofficial XY DOU Council
Last edited:


my favorite poem was the one i read to youuuuuuuuu
is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
RBTT Champion

This is the Generation 6 Doubles Viability Rankings where pokemon are ranked based on viability in the metagame. The rankings and tier descriptions have been assigned to better each Pokemon's state within the metagame. These rankings will not be updated as periodically as last generation but may have shifts after big tournaments featuring this generation​

>>Tier 1<<
Pokemon that have a good matchup vs a large portion of the metagame, are either quite powerful or offer great team support, and can fit on almost any team. You can't really go wrong by using these Pokemon.
:landorus-therian: Landorus-T
:kangaskhan-mega: Mega Kangaskhan
:volcanion: Volcanion

>>Tier 2<<
Pokemon that are generally strong, but can be dead weight in some matchups, don't have great matchups vs a lot of Tier 1, or are only particularly useful for checking a certain team style.
:amoonguss: Amoonguss
:conkeldurr: Conkeldurr
:diancie-mega: Mega Diancie
:genesect: Genesect
:gengar-mega: Mega Gengar
:thundurus: Thundurus-I

>>Tier 3<<
Pokemon which have broad applications on a variety of teams but are simply less effective than the Pokemon in the higher tiers. This also includes Pokemon which, while good, only fit on a specific team style or require heavy support but are still stronger than Pokemon in the tiers below.
:aegislash: Aegislash
:bisharp: Bisharp
:deoxys-speed: Deoxys-S
:diancie: Diancie
:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn
:gardevoir-mega: Mega Gardevoir
:gastrodon: Gastrodon
:kyurem-black: Kyurem-B
:landorus: Landorus
:politoed: Politoed
:porygon2: Porygon2
:salamence-mega: Mega Salamence
:swampert-mega: Mega Swampert
:sylveon: Sylveon
:talonflame: Talonflame

>>Tier 4<<
Pokemon that can only serve a specific role not needed by most teams, but can still perform excellently.
:azumarill: Azumarill
:charizard-mega-y: Mega Charizard Y
:cresselia: Cresselia
:deoxys-attack: Deoxys-A
:excadrill: Excadrill
:gothitelle: Gothitelle
:heatran: Heatran
:hoopa-unbound: Hoopa-U
:hydreigon: Hydreigon
:jellicent: Jellicent
:keldeo: Keldeo
:kingdra: Kingdra
:ludicolo: Ludicolo
:manectric-mega: Mega Manectric
:mew: Mew
:raichu: Raichu
:sableye-mega: Mega Sableye
:scizor-mega: Mega Scizor
:scrafty: Scrafty
:shaymin-sky: Shaymin-Sky
:terrakion: Terrakion
:tyranitar: Tyranitar
:whimsicott: Whimsicott
Last edited:


my favorite poem was the one i read to youuuuuuuuu
is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
RBTT Champion
XY Doubles OU Sample Teams

These are teams for getting into the XY DOU metagame! The purpose of this is to showcase proven successful DOU teams in order to help aspiring new players jump into the tier and get acclimated to the tier's numerous team playstyles and archetypes.

TVALKS by zee

DeoSharp by JRL & Tenzai

Whimsicott Offense by zee

Mega Gengar Balance by Memoric

Mega Salamence Sand by Actuarily

Rain by EVERYONE!!!

Mega Gardevoir + Redirection by Memoric

Mega Manectric + P2 by Stax, edited by qsns
Last edited:


It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
is a Tiering Contributor
Teambuilding Frameworks

Moderator's note: These frameworks are a little dated, having been written when XY was the current generation. As time has passed, the XY metagame has evolved, and not all of these frameworks are "correct" any more. That being said, this is still a solid place to start when building XY teams. A rework for the current metagame is not planned at the time of writing this note.


If you're stuck on where to go next when building a team, or unsure of where to start, you can check out this thread to find out what successful Doubles teams have looked like and what some of these teams have in common. Viewing teambuilding frameworks can also be helpful to notice similarities and differences accross compositions to get a better grasp of building with a particular Pokemon or core or archetype. If you want to contribute feel free to post similarities between successful teams that you've spotted! Your post can be a framework for me to add to the OP, or a comment on an existing framework. Please contribute as much as possible: good discussions are always healthy and welcome on the forums, and it's good practice in team analysis!

As a side note, I've been trying to keep this as updated as possible, which might seem a little hectic but new teams always reveal new ways of building which means new updated frameworks are necessary to keep up with the meta.

No matter what kind of team you make, there are certain things that your Doubles OU team needs to have in order to function properly and succeed. Here are some very basic points to go over during team building to help you out! Please note that these are general guidelines.

• 2 Kangaskhan switchins OR 1 switchin and 1 check​
• 2 ground immunities OR 1 ground immunity and 1 resist​
• 2 Fire resists / Sun Checks​
• 2 Water resists​
• 1 Rock resist​
• 2 Fairy resists (preferably resists Psychic as well)​
• 1 Sleep immunity / strong Amoonguss checks​
• 1 Kyurem B check, avoid over-reliance on team members that give Kyurem-Black free substitutes (Amoonguss, Rotom-Wash)​
• 2 steels checks​
• 2 different forms of Trick Room checks (Taunt/Spore/TR user/Strong Dark or Ghost/Fake Out/Substitute user)​
• 1 CM Cress check​
• 1 check to Azumarill + Amoonguss​

Mega Kangaskhan
Memoric's Tailwind Offense

Stratos' Kangaskhan Balance


1: Kangaskhan

Mega Kangaskhan is practically the face of the doubles meta, presenting a huge threat but also having significant drawbacks, many of which have to be supplemented by its teams. Overall, Kangaskhan teams tend to be more balance-oriented, able to switch in for Kangaskhan in sticky situations (as it lacks Protect and high speed) while dealing with many common threats Kangaskhan hates to pave the way.
2: Aegislash Check, Fire Resist and Sun Check
Kangaskhan often struggles with these steels, as they can play around Kangaskhan's normal methods of hitting opposing Steel-Types. In addition, this slot also functions as a Fire resist and a Talonflame/Sun check to varying degrees of effectiveness.
3: Psychic-Type: Amoonguss, Kyurem-Black, Soft Fighting-Types Check
Amoonguss along with opposing Intimidate represents a serious problem to Kangaskhan, being able to redirect and sleep it and then recover the HP back, cycling itself and Intimidate at the same time. This slot puts a stop to that. In addition, while Kangaskhan itself isn't particularly threatened by Kyurem-Black, its compositions frequently leave it vulnerable to Kyube (LandoT, Thundurus, Heatran, Amoonguss, all common Kangaskhan partners that struggle against Kyurem-Black), necessitating a check to prevent Kyube from subbing and destroying these more balance-centric teams. Fighting types such as Terrakion also heavily threaten the first two slots, and running a Psychic-Type helps as a switchin and a way of KO'ing opposing Fighting-Types.
4: LandoT Switchin/Check, Soft Kangaskhan switchin
Pretty straightforward. Bringing in your Kangaskhan at the same time as opposing LandoT hampers Kangaskhan as it gets Intimidated, softening its damage considerably. These options help to inhibit opposing Landorus-Therian and prevent it from doing too much. Most choices in this slot can switch into opposing Kangaskhan. While suicune takes Kangaskhan on poorly, Memoric's team features Breloom in the 5th slot.
5: Keldeo Killer, Trick Room Check, Soft Rain Check
Keldeo is an obvious high-tier threat to Kangaskhan that can be KO'd by this slot, while it also functions to inhibits Trick Room and Rain to varying degrees of success. It should be noted that most all of these teams can get away with having both Heatran and Landorus-Therian due to Kangaskhan's intrinsically good Rain matchup. Kangaskhan is also relatively good against Trick Room but functions better to support a partner that does well against Trick Room using its own Fake Out, as lacking Protect can hold it back significantly.
6: Mega Diancie Check, Kangaskhan Check
Mega Diancie resists all of Kangaskhan's coverage while Diamond-Storm boosting on it very well, necessitating team members dedicated to dealing with it. Landorus-Therian, Aegislash, and bulky Waters all do this pretty well, though it should be noted that LandoT cannot KO Diancie after a defense boost, while Aegislash is forced to position awkwardly with Stance Change. Opposing Kangaskhan can also present an issue to slower, more balance-oriented teams, so Kangaskhan checks and switchins are vital. Teams that are better suited for absorbing hits utilize burn or Intimidate here.

Some notes:
-Steel, Fire, Psychic, Intimidate, are all staples
-Anything that's not FullRoom has a LandoT: helps immensely vs Diancie and opposing Kangaskhan while being very versatile as a pivot.

Memoric's Latios is Tailwind, since he has Breloom which appreciates the Tailwind support. On the other hand, Stratos uses Recover to give more staying power, and also to better function as a Fire resist, while Amoonguss does not benefit from Tailwind support like Breloom does.

Kyurem-Black seems rather unpopular... Rain checks aren't a necessity (one of Kyube's biggest draws) and Kyube has the worst Sun matchup of all the dragons, maybe? Kyube also compounds Fighting-Type weaknesses, to an extent. Hydreigon does the same thing, but Qsns gets away with it by running two Psychic-Types, LandoT, and Talonflame. Hydreigon is also notably better at dealing with opposing Aegislash.

Mega Kangaskhan + Aegislash
Qsns Kangaskhan Tailwind Offense

Memoric Kangaskhan Balance

N10siT Kangaskhan Balance

Braverius Kangaskhan Azumarill Offense

1: Mega Kangaskhan
Mega Kangaskhan is practically the face of the doubles meta, presenting a huge threat but also having significant drawbacks, many of which have to be supplemented by its teams. Overall, Kangaskhan teams tend to be more balance-oriented, able to switch in for Kangaskhan in sticky situations (as it lacks Protect and high speed) while dealing with many common threats Kangaskhan hates to pave the way.
2: Aegislash
So part of the purpose of this frameworks is exploring how running Kangaskhan + Aegislash instead of some other steel (ie Heatran) changes the team-building process. Aegislash provides a strong Faerie-types counter while also beating Trick Room rather handily. In addition, Aegislash's Ghost typing allows it to function as a Fighting-types counter, unlike other Steel-types. On the other hand, Aegislash can make Keldeo more difficult to deal with and also leave a team vulnerable to opposing Fire-types and Sun.
3: Offensive Ground-Type: Thundurus, Steels, Sun Check.
4: Sun Check, Fighting Resist/Keldeo Counter, Ground Immunity
This slot and the next one are both focused on dealing with opposing Keldeo, while slot 4 also beats Mega Charizard-Y. This team member also functions as a Ground immunity for the team's ground type but also against opposing Ground-types. In some sense, slot 4 can be thought of as a "'steels check' check", doing extremely well against traditional counters to Aegislash.
5: Second Fighting Check
Three out of the four options here resist Fighting while Rotom-Wash deals with all Fighting-types rather well (being able to burn physical Fighting-types and use Thunderbolt Keldeo).
6: Water Resist, Heatran/LandoT Check

Some notes on differences from Kangaskhan without Aegislash:

Well the first thing that comes to mind is the lack of a Psychic-type in the other Kangaskhan framework. In addition, Diancie checks aren't as much of a deal due to having Aegislash. On the other hand, Kangaskhan+Aegis tends to cram as many Keldeo checks as it can get its hands on while still having a Fire-type, which almost necessitates Talonflame.

Mega Gardevoir

Sam Gardevoir Balance

Dawg Gardevoir Trick Room

Sam Gardevoir Rain

1: Mega Gardevoir
Obviously the first step in a successful Mega Gardevoir team is the Gardevoir. The set on Garde can range from Timid Encore to slow, bulky Trick Room setter.
2: Landorus-T / Intimidate
The second slot on the team should be something to compensate for Gardevoir's lack of physical bulk. Landorus-Therian is the most commonly used Intimidate Pokemon here, but Scrafty is a worthwhile choice on some builds.
3: Sun Check / Fires Check
Gardevoir struggles to deal with opposing Fire-types, mandating both resists and threats that can hit those Fire-types such as Charizard-Y or Talonflame.
4: Bulky Talonflame Check / Soft Rain Check
5: Kangaskhan, Diancie, Fairy Check

Gardevoir appreciates having a redirector in order to spam Pixilate Hyper Voice more effectively, so Amoonguss is commonly seen on Gardevoir teams, while also dealing with Kangaskhan and Diancie. Aegislash works well with Gardevoir by switching into Kangaskhan Return.
6: Additional Sweeper that deals with Aegislash/Heatran
Finally, Gardevoir appreciates another means of applying pressure, allowing yourself to control the flow of the match and position yourself properly. In addition to those listed here, Volcanion is a very strong Pokemon in this role on Gardevoir teams.

Teambuilding Checklist
  • 2 Kang Checks/Counters
  • 3 Talon Counters
  • 3 soft LandoT Checks
  • 2 or more Heatran Checks
  • 2 or more Aegislash Checks
  • Intimidate
  • Steel Type
  • Water Type
  • At MOST 1 other team member that can't hit Aegislash

Notes On Building Mega Gardevoir

Gardevoir is a very powerful but needs some support to prevent it from falling to physical attackers and steels. Thus, Intimidate (usually Lando-T) is almost auto-include to start. The best Mega Gardevoir teams tend to run Trick Room but also some way of slowing down opponents (Icy Wind, Thunder Wave). It's crucial to watch for opposing threats like Talonflame, Heatran, and Aegislash, making sure to account for these in team-building.

Mega Diancie
KyleCole Mega Diancie

Sam Mega Diancie Rain

Vinc2612 Mega Diancie

Stratos Mega Diancie + Volcarona

Nido-Rus Mega Diancie + Volcarona

Mishimono Mega Diancie Offense

1: Diancie
In the current meta, Diancie-Mega is a huge threat. It's got good matchups against the numerous dragons, flying types, and three musketeers along with a great speed tier. However it tends to struggle against top tier threats such as Aegislash and Landorus-Therian, while also having difficulties with bulky Grass types and Water-types in general (especially rain).

2: Fire-type
As Stratos notes, "a strong fire beats almost every single Diancie check" by having good matchups vs bulky steels such as Aegislash and Ferrothorn and filling the role of Amoonguss-killer while also checking sun to a varying degree. Most teams use Talonflame, but other options such as Blaziken and Volcarona function well too. It should be noted that, of the available Fire-Types, Talonflame is probably the most popular due to being the most splashable while also having the best Rain matchup and bringing a Ground Resist. Other Fire-types can work; it's just that these traits make Talonflame a near-staple.

3: Rain Check/Water Resist and Soft Amoonguss Check/Switchin
Grass types, Dragons, or Thundurus all serve as good rain-checks and cover weaknesses to rain. Togekiss functions as a Rain check by possessing Thunder Wave, a heavy deterrent to Swift Swimmers. This slot also helps to beat Amoonguss, though (generally) in a more passive manner.

4: Second Aegis Check
Aegislash is a big threat to Diancie-Mega compositions, meriting a second check alongside with the Fire type already included. This is most often fulfilled by Pokemon that can threaten Aegislash with super-effective moves; however, Water-types that, in the case of Keldeo, 2HKO without triggering Weakness Policy, or in the case of Assault Vest Ludicolo and Rotom-Wash, find it easy to switch into Aegislash and absorb its hits, beat Aegislash for Mega Diancie rather handily.

5: Landorus-Therian Check/Counter, Second Rain Check
Since Landorus-Therian can both lower Mega Diancie's Attack and threaten it with Earthquake, a Landorus-Therian check helps alleviate this issue. On these teams, this ranges from Amoonguss to Kyurem-Black or Rain in general to deal with Landorus-Therian. This slot also functions as a second rain check in all the teams.

6: Steel-type: Kangaskhan Check, Grass/Fairy Resist, Trick Room Check
Used to round out Dragon (typically one of the previous slots) Fairy (Diancie) Steel, Bulky Steel types help against Kangaskhan-Mega while also providing a Fairy resist and Grass resist. Aegislash and Ferrothorn each serve to greatly hamper Trick Room's effectiveness and serve as good Trick Room checks.

So the first thing that jumps out immediately is that many Mega Diancie teams use a really simple formula of 2 popular tri-cores that give the team strong defensive synergy (providing resistances for the other members weaknesses) and offensive coverage (several strong attacks of different type): Fairy/Steel/Dragon and Fire/Water/Grass. KyleCole's team doesn't have a Water-Type but it utilizes Kyurem-Black which switches into many of the Pokemon a Water-type would help with.

Mega Charizard Y + Venusaur
Stratos Sun

KyleCole/ Mizuhime Sun

Shaian Sun

Mizuhime Sun

Just like the XY sun teambuilding framework, sun gives you a little bit more freedom in where you assign each specific role, as long as you have them. The first 3 slots are fairly obvious on all teams:
  1. Charizard Y
  2. Venusaur (in the past this was "fast offensive support grass" but with Skymin banned, Venusaur becomes the best option here)
  3. Check to Electrics and Heatran. Shaky Kangaskhan switch-in.
  4. Bulky Electric and/or speed control and/or ground immune with Cresselia serving as an all purpose switch in, and ground immune being made up for in the last slot on Shaians team (Raikou has Thunder Wave and Latios does not have Tailwind). Though less obvious, this slot also serves as a check to Talonflame and Thundurus. The first 3 team choices obviously accomplish this, but the Cresselia actually has Ice beam & Trick Room which stop Thundurus. These two Pokemon are so important to beat because they essentially ignore whatever speed control is being used to boost Charizard (possibly the Pokemon that appreciates Tailwind/TR more than any other).
  5. Fire Resist / Sun Check / Second Amoonguss killer. While Charizard itself fares rather well against Amoonguss having only 1 check to Amoonguss is a dangerous path. Similarly, Sun teams are hard-pressed to find good Fire resists and checks to opposing Charizard and Heatran, necesitating good partners to deal with these threats.
  6. Kangaskhan Check. Charizard and Venusaur's inability to handle Kangaskhan require more checks
Some notes (creds to Stratos):
While Mizuhimes team only has 2 Ground immune Pokemon to everyone else's 3, the other 3 teams have Landorus-T as one of them, meaning they want 2 more teammates to Earthquake beside.

Picking a steel type is more than just picking your favourite Steel. The teams that used a fighting type Pokemon in the last slot opted for Heatran as the Steel. You can look at this as a decision to compensate for a weakness to Talonflame in the last slot, or the fighting mon alleviating the weakness to Kyurem-B that Heatran adds.

Mega Charizard Y without Venusaur
MajorBowman's Sun Semiroom

KyleCole's Sun SemiRoom

BLOOD TOTEM's Sun Balance

Slot 1: Fire Dino
Slot 2: Fighting-Type

Help check Kangaskhan and Heatran. All Fighting-Types in this slot also check Thundurus to a degree. Sun Compositions are traditionally weak to these threats so being able to bring a Fighting type (since teams can afford the cost of hurting the Talonflame matchup as they aren't running Venusaur) is one of the first things that sets apart Charizard-Y with and without Venusaur, helping the Kang and Heatran matchups considerably from the onset.
Slot 3: Talon / Sun Check
Running a Fighting along with Zard leaves these teams rather Talonflame-weak, requiring a dedicated Talonflame check. Team members in this slot also deal with opposing Thundurus rather handily. Sun teams also have a habit of struggling to find solid Sun Checks, but not running Venusaur gives more room for more Fire resists.
Slot 4: Check to Dragons and Thundurus
Opposing Dragon-types deal well with Zard's Fire/Grass coverage while also being strong offensive threats that previous team members tend to be shaky on checking. Steel/Fairy types or Pokemon that deal well with Special coverage (Hoopa) or can easily threaten most dragons (Latios, Weavile) greatly help this matchup.
Whiile the previous two slots deal with Thundurus rather handily, the more checks the better. Pokemon in this slot tend to trade well with opposing Thundurus.
Slot 5: Mega Diancie Check / Rock Slide switchin / Kangaskhan switchin
Steel types or Intimidate all fill this role rather nicely, taking Rock-Type coverage easily while also switching into Kangaskhan for team members
Slot 6: Landorus-Therian Check
Pokemon here function to varying degrees of effectiveness against opposing Landorus-Therian, either switching in, forcing it out, or taking its coverage with relative ease. In addition, Blood Totem's Landorus-Therian is actually mixed with Hidden Power Ice, making it an extremely good Landorus-Therian check, despite being Landorus-Therian itself.

No Venusaur Sun Checklist:
1 Fighting Type
-2 or more Heatran checks
-3 or more Amoonguss killers/counters (including Char Y)
-3 Kangaskhan checks (KyleCole runs both Overheat and HP Ground)
-2 solid checks to opposing Dragons
-Some form of speed control: 4/5 have Trick Room whereas BLOOD TOTEM runs Icy Wind Gengar
-AT LEAST 1 Fire resist/immune (outside of Char Y)
-2 Diancie checks (Totem has Flash Cannon on his Thundurus)
-2 or 3 Landorus-Therian Checks
-1 bulky Steel Type

Some notes on compositions:

Thundurus can used here whereas it isn't with Venusaur because of overlapping status
No Water types besides Volcanion. Seems like halving your damage under sun hurts these waters too much.
4/5 teams are some form of SemiRoom. Something that Venusaur teams struggle to do is have the same kind of flexibility and fluidity that lends Non-Venu Sun the ability to effectively run SemiRoom teams
Teams with both Char Y and Conk still differ heavily, showing there's a lot of options open and diverse possibilities with teams.
The team with only 1 Talon check outside of the first 2 mons has Terrakion, which helps against opposing Talon. The Terrakion team is also the only to feature a grass-type, probably because out of the 3 fighting types used, Terrakion has the best Char Y and Heatran matchup.
All Semiroom teams, to varying degrees, have the ability to bluff not being SemiRoom, possibly catching opponents by surprise.

Analysis on differences from traditional Venusaur Sun:

These teams get to run Fighting-Types, whereas Venusaur teams are hardpressed to do so due to a worsened Talonflame matchup, being forced to run things like Zapdos or Rhydon to alleviate that matchup
All of these teams have very good matchups against FullRoom: being more balance-oriented lets them give hell to Full Trick Room teams even when the screen is purple
While the Heatran matchup can still be a problem, besides a few mons most things on these teams actively prevent Heatran from setting up Substitute
Lacking a Grass type as a Amoonguss switchin means having to run more goggles and more Amoonguss killers, overall


Braverius' Kangaskhan Bunny

Fangame10's Full TR Bunny

Slot 1 - A cute bunny.

Slot 2 - Fire Type.
Fire types act as blanket checks to many of the things that Azumarill can struggle against. A check to Grass, Steel, and Fairy types is vital to aid Azumarill in pulling off an easier time setting up. Opposing Charizard Y is also very threatening to Azumarill as it both halves Aqua Jet damage and lives a +5 Aqua Jet, so these fire types also function as Sun checks prevent this matchup from being a huge problem.
Slot 3 - Secondary Grass-types / Amoonguss check. Grass Types restrict Amoonguss and directly threaten it from setting up, but thankfully most are easily checked or slow enough that a partnered Fire type can actively prevent this from being a problem.
Slot 4 - Water Resist / Bulky Waters check. Also functions as a Rain check. While it may seem that Azumarill should beat opposing Rain, it will often struggle to find the right time to come in, as even a resisted Hydro Pump severely hurts its sweeping capabilities. Bulky Waters such as Volcanion and Rotom-Wash can also be troublesome for Azumarill, requiring dedicated checks to beat.
Slot 5 - Thundurus / Talonflame check. In most cases this also serves as a Kangaskhan check, or something that comfortably switches into a Kangaskhan Fake Out. While it can be difficult to find proper Talonflame checks that work well with Azumarill all teams sport some kind of damper / inhibition to opposing Talonflames. In the case of Terrakion, it provides Quick Guard and threatens to KO Talonflame with Rock Slide. LandoT brings intimidate and a threatened KO, while Porygon finds Talonflame an easy target to setup Trick Room on while also being able to KO Talonflame with Thunderbolt. Pokemon in this slot generally deal with opposing Thundurus pretty well (especially offensive Thundurus variants).
Slot 6 - 3rd or 4th Kangaskhan check. Mega Kangaskhan is a huge problem for our bunny friend as Kangaskhan threatens to both restrict its maneuverability with Fake Out while also threatening to break it out of Belly Drum range with a Return. While most teams already feature at least 2 Kangaskhan checks, the more the better. Jolly Kangaskhan and Bulky Low Kick Kangaskhan (Braverius' and Yoda's teams respectively) both function as soft checks whereas Keldeo and Mega Gengar are excellent hard stops to Kangaskhan.

Interestingly enough I didn't find myself writing "Heatran check" or "Trick Room check" or "Landorus-Therian check" as Azumarill is phenomenal at setting up and destroying against these threats, nullifying the need to cover them with other team members.

A general Azumarill teambuilding checklist includes the following (outside the standard range of threats):

2 Amoonguss/Grass types Checks
1 Rain Check
1 Bulky Steels Check
3 Kangaskhan Checks (Intimidate, Burns, or team members that directly threaten to OHKO Kangaskhan)
1 or more Talonflame checks
At most 1 team member that is OHKOd by Talonflame OR multiple mons that are OHKOd by Talonflame but featuring some form of a Talonflame counter (Laga's team has Rotom-Heat)
At least 1 form of utility that aids in setting up Belly Drum (Fake Out or Redirection)

Some similarities between compositions:

All teams have fire types
All teams have steel types (great synergy with Azumarill's threat coverage and typing)
All teams have redirection, except for Yoda's Full TR
All teams have priority of some form
Every team except for the one with Amoonguss has some kind of speed control. This can be greatly beneficial against more offensive teams and give not-quite-as-offensive Azumarill teams room to breathe

Mega Gengar

Memoric SemiRoom Mega Gengar

Blood Totem Mega Gengar Rain Offense

Nido-Rus Balanced Mega Gengar

KyleCole Mega Gengar FullRoom

1: Mega Gengar

Mega Gengar contrasts from other powerhouse megas (Kangaskhan, Charizard Y, Diancie, Gardevoir) in that its main contribution to a team is support and speed, rather than sheer power. In particular, fast Will-O-Wisp combined with Shadow Tag makes Gengar-Mega a potent Kangaskhan Check. In addition, teams utilizing Mega Gengar can lean on it to cover Fairy weakenesses, either letting them skip Steel- or Fire-Types or complement especially Fairy-weak compositions.
2: Water-Type
Strong Waters complement Gengar's weaknesses almost perfectly, beating opposing steels handily while also dealing with Landorus-Therian.
3: Fire Type/Sun Check
So here most teams run a Fire-Type to deal with opposing Sun teams, but Nido-Rus' team already has a Volcanion. While Volcanion can absorb Heat Waves, it's not as good at checking Char Y as other Fires and therefore requires more support to deal with opposing Charizard.
4: Rain Check/Water Resist
Gengar lacks resists to elemental coverage and this includes issues with Rain, so rain checks and rain switchins are important key aspects of Gengar teams. While Cresselia isn't the best at dealing with Rain, it does provide crucial speed control and Memoric's other members (Hydreigon, Ferrothorn) are extremely well adapted to dealing with Rain.
5: Bulky Pivot / Kangaskhan Switchin
Bulky Intimidate/Steels that can pivot are complemented by Mega Gengar's ability to trap physical attackers such as Kangaskhan
6: Steels Check
Both Heatran and Aegislash are rather difficult to deal with for Gengar teams, thus necessitating more checks to these threats

General Teambuilding Checklist:
-Water type
-Fire Type
-At least 2 Sun checks
-3/more Aegislash Checks
-1-2 Kangaskhan switchins (other than Gengar)
-Every team but the KyleCole's FullRoom team has a Dragon - Gengar deals with opposing Fairy types (including Mega Gardevoir, unlike the other poison type in the meta, Amoonguss) very well
-2/more LandoT hard-stops
-At least 2 T-Wave switchins/Thundurus Checks

The point of noticing frameworks like this isn't to limit creativity or say "you MUST build this way." this framework catalogue exists as a resource for when you're starting out on a new team to help you take a top level thing and put your own spin on it. - Keith
Last edited by a moderator:


It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
is a Tiering Contributor
Frameworks continued


KyleCole's Mega Swampert Rain

Sam's Diancie Rain

Blood Totem's Mega Gengar Rain

Rain is a powerful team archetype that excels given the room, but faces pitfalls in accounting for numerous rain checks, such as Mega Charizard-Y, Kyurem-Black, Amoonguss, and Ferrothorn. In many ways, this is due to being forced to run Politoed, a rather mediocre team member, in order to get Rain.
1: Politoed
2: Thundurus Counter, Talonflame Counter, Sun Check, Kyurem-Black Check

On all teams this slot serves to alleviate tough matchups against Thundurus, Talonflame, and Sun. Although Blood Totem's Landorus doesn't carry Rock Coverage, he has Explosion and rain trapping with Gengar (the Politoed is Eject Button) to alleviate the sun matchup. It should be noted that Terrakion is the shakiest of these options, being severely hampered both by opposing Steel-types and Intimidate, but KyleCole makes up for it by running Swampert-Mega which does all of these things, except for being a Sun Check.
3: Talonflame
Simply put, Talonflame is an almost 100% include for rain teams. Unlike other fire types it can still function well inside of Rain, while handily beating the Grass-types that Rain teams struggle with. In addition, Talonflame is valuable as it can KO an Amoonguss before a Swift Swim partner.
4: Third Sun Check/Lure
It's difficult to over-emphasize how difficult of a matchup opposing Sun is. Charizard's ability to override Rain with its Mega Evolve, and the fact that Rain teams tend to sport more than one water-type attacker (which gets completely neutered by Sun) make facing Char Y extremely difficult without adequate checks. Although Mega Gengar doesn't beat Char Y in itself, it provides Shadow Tag along with Politoed's extra switching mobility thanks to Eject button, and Landorus-Therian's Explosion. Simply put, Blood Totem has the ability to outmaneuver opposing Char Y and trap it with Rain. Jirachi has Rain Dance to reset weather while also carrying Safety Goggles to stop opposing Venusaur.
5: Second Kyurem-Black / Dragons Check
While Grass-types pose a threat to Rain, Dragon-types also resist Water-type coverage and pressure rain teams back. In particular, Kyurem-Black is especially worrying as it isn't weak to Ice, though the other Dragon-types output more overall offensive pressure.
6: Waters / Volcanion Check
Opposing Water-types tend to sit in on Rain sweepers, in particular Gyarados, Keldeo, Volcanion, or Suicune all take advantage of rain or stall it heavily, while hampering opponents. Ludicolo or Thundurus deals with this pretty easily, as either Grass coverage or Thundurus' T-Wave / Thunderbolt prevent opposing Water-types from being a problem.
A general Rain teambuilding checklist includes:
-3 sun checks
-Some form of Electric-type coverage (Jirachi is Thunder)
-At least 1 Kangaskhan switchin
-2 Kyurem-Black Checks
-2 Ferrothorn Checks
-At least 3 Talonflame checks

Dedicated Trick Room

Stratos HailRoom

Croven & Yoda2798's Gothitelle FullRoom

KyleCole's GardeRoom

1: Amoonguss Hard-Stop

For Trick Room teams, Amoonguss represents a huge threat to both setup and sweep due to its low speed and Spore. Croven's Gothitelle can both trap Amoonguss and neuter it with Taunt.
2: Second Amoonguss Check, Soft Dragon Check
While not as strong of a check, this second slot serves to also prevent opposing Amoonguss from being an issue, threatening it heavily especially outside of Trick Room. While both slots 1 and 2 check Amoonguss, it can be said that this second slot is more of a heavy deterrent to Amoonguss leads and switchins.
3: Bisharp+Keldeo Check and Kangaskhan Check
A Bisharp+Keldeo lead from a HO team tends to be very threatening to unprepared Fullroom teams. A combination of Quick Guard and Defiant, and powerful physical Dark coverage means that Scrafty either has to play a prediction game (where the opponent's worst case scenario is to get one KO on Scrafty at the expense of Trick Room being setup) or avoid the two altogether. Amoonguss redirects both, Talonflame threatens both while also having offensive initiative, Jellicent is untouched by Keldeo while also possessing Colbur Berry, and Conkeldurr's Mach Punch let it priority KO Bisharp while also easily threatening Keldeo under Trick Room.
4: Steels check and Intimidate
Bulky Steels are one of the best options for stalling Trick Room, and tend to be everywhere. Thus, Trick Room teams should pack checks (water types that can threaten them, Dark coverage, Ground coverage, Porygon's excellent bulk and Ghost-immunity, Fire-types) to these annoyances. Intimidate is also crucial on TR teams for giving partners room to breathe against physical attackers such as Kangaskhan and Talonflame.
5: Second Steels check
6: Dragon switchin/slayer

Dragon-types often find it very easy to come in on opposing elemental coverage and stall out Trick Room. Having at least 2 ways to actively stop opposing Dragon-types from stalling TR turns helps teams greatly. Stratos' Porygon2, while extremely bulky, isn't as active of a check (Blizzard though), but his first slot features Abomasnow, a potent dragon slayer.

While the teams are very diverse, they can generally be categorized into these roles. Most of them are pretty intuitive (and explained in rather beginner terms above) but it's there are a few interesting things to note. First, there are almost no steels, as these typically struggle against hard-hitters and Fire/Ground types that TR hates dealing with. Also, some teams sport 2 defensive setters, a mix of both, or both offensive setters (KyleCole's team) but this lack of offense or lack of defense is made up for in other partners. When building Full Trick Room, lack of "good options" (only real fake out is Kang and scrafty, very few strong AND slow mons) creates a lot of room for creativity, but a general theme can be seen across these different team compositions.

Trick Room Threatlist:
  • Talonflame
  • Powerful Spread attackers (Charizard Y, Landorus-T, Pixilate Hyper Voice etc.)
  • Amoonguss (specifically in combination with Azumarill and Subtran)
  • Aegislash
  • Bisharp Keldeo
  • Taunt (strong setters basically)
  • Kangaskhan in general (specifically Kang+Taunt or Kang+Spore or Kang +Serene Grace)
  • Hoopa-U/Bisharp + Fake Out/Redirection/Serene Grace Flinch
  • Bulky Pokemon that can sit through Trick Room (Mega Venusaur, Suicune, Jirachi, Togekiss, Cresselia, Dragons etc.)

:metagross-mega: Mega Metagross
Braverius Mega Metagross

Stratos Mega Metagross

Kamikaze Mega Metagross

Finally Mega Metagross

Slot 1. Mega Metagross
Slot 2. Landorus-T -
Bulky pivot, provides Intimidate support as well as a Ground Immunity for Mega Metagross. Not all Landorus-T in this slot are scarfed.
Slot 3. Offensive water to check a wide range of threats, namely fire types and grounds. Keldeo provides a check to the standard Kangaskhan/Landorus-T/Heatran core (among other things) while Azumarill is a great late game cleaner to beat a wider range of threats providing it can get set up. Slot 3 also has a great matchup vs Kyurem-B.
Slot 4. Speed Control & Levitate in all cases but 1. Blaziken provides the check to the popular core I mentioned above that Keldeo covered in the other teams. It also gets around Tailwind / Icy Wind with Speed Boost. This lack of active speed control is somewhat compensated by priority from Azumarill as well as Speed Boost.
Slot 5. Bulky Support & TR check. Sableye and Amoonguss are obvious picks for this role with Taunt/Fake Out and Spore, Ferrothorn is a decent check to CM Cress as well if you can get up Leech Seed before it sets up too much, and all picks picks besides Sableye check Jellicent & Waters. This slot also serves as a Kangaskhan switchin (of varying effectiveness)
Slot 6. Filler. This slot is usually a catch-all Pokemon to cover the already strong 5 mons in the rest of the team. Victini has V-Create to destroy all non-resists and of course Final Gambit, and Rotom-W/Kyurem-B both cover a huge range of mons. Darkrai has Foul Play in conjunction with Swagger users on the first team which also covers a huge range of Pokemon.

:venusaur-mega: Mega Venusaur Framework
Arcticblast's Mega Venusaur

Hashtag's Mega Venusaur

Stratos' Mega Venusaur

1: Mega Venu

2: Kang Check, Fires Check

Kangaskhan and Fire Types are both very annoying opponents to deal with for Venusaur, either being capable of mostly ignoring Venusaur's prescence or threatening large chunks of damage. While typically this slot is a fighting type, MajorBowman opts for running two ground types instead, using Gastrodon in his second slot to beat Volcanion in particular. Kamikaze uses Azumarill here to help against Fire Types and Steel Types.
3: Ground-Type
Either Landorus form is invaluable in dealing with troublesome steels (many of which carry substitute) and clearing checks for Mega Venusaur. Gastrodon is also an interesting option that enables a team to deal very well with opposing Volcanion.
4: Fire Type
Fire Types help out tremendously with KO'ing opposing Grass types that Venusaur struggles to touch while also dealing with opposing Mega Gardevoir decently well.
5: Trick Room Check / Kangaskhan Check
While Venusaur can be very good at sitting inside Trick Room, it struggles to truly pressure opposing Trick Room teams as it lacks damage output to damage Trick Room setters. Aegislash can switch into Kangaskhan, Darkrai is faster and burns it, while Jirachi redirects Kangaskhan with ease.
6: Soft Lando Check, Water Resist/Rain Check, Steel Check
While Venusaur itself isn't weak to these threats the way it is built with often leaves teams susceptible to being swept by some combination of Talonflame and Rain, thus requiring a check to these two.
General Venusaur teambuilding checklist:
3 Talon checks
At MOST 1 team member that is outsped and KO'd by Talonflame
3 checks to bulky steels (opposing Aegislash, Heatran)
1 Intimidate
1 Water resist/Rain check
3 Kangaskhan checks


:deoxys-attack: :bisharp: DeoSharp *NEW*
This framework is currently under construction. DeoSharp has seen a massive resurgence as of late, so it's probably not a bad idea to make one of these, huh?
Last edited by a moderator:


wouldst thou like to live fergaliciously?
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
The Council has decided that it's time to once again examine Jirachi in the XY Doubles metagame. The center of a bit of controversy around the end of Generation 6, Jirachi continues to be an oppressive force in the metagame. The combination of speed control (in the forms of Icy Wind and Trick Room), redirection, and, most notoriously, 60% flinch chance at any given time with Serene Grace + Iron Head creates an uncompetitive environment in a large number of games in which Jirachi is involved. As such, the fate of Jirachi will be decided by a vote.

The users voting on Jirachi were chosen because they met at least one of the following requirements:
  • At least 3 games played in XY Doubles during the most recent iteration of Doubles Premier League
  • At least 8 total points earned from XY Doubles between Smogon DOU Tour I and II
  • Current member of DOU Council
The following users will be voting on Jirachi:

Voting will begin on Sunday, June 17, in order to have voting completed before the next XY weekend of Smogon DOU Tour II (June 29-July 1). In keeping with suspect tests, a supermajority of 60% will be required to ban Jirachi.

Feel free to discuss Jirachi using this thread!


wouldst thou like to live fergaliciously?
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus


It’s just us kittens left, and the rain is coming
is a Tiering Contributor
The frameworks posted in this thread have been lightly updated to reflect the Jirachi ban. The original code for the previous version can be found here:

For anyone using frameworks as a resource please note that this means it was written before a significant rule change and therefore teams may be out of date, even if they did not include Jirachi.


Banned deucer.
I saw a few games fall victim to this in the tour so far, so I decided to write a guide on scouting Goggles in XY. It's a pretty interesting piece of the metagame in general that I'm frankly kind of sad is gone in SM. <--- big amoong fan here

Goggles is an item that was good for exactly one generation, and a lot of players who started in SM are probably unfamiliar with how to play around Goggles in XY. If you're using Amoong, or Venu, or (god forbid) Loom then this is a critical skill. I'm writing this guide mostly about Amoonguss, as it's the relevant one, but it applies to the rest as well.

General Gameplan

A single turn wasted trying to redirect or sleep an immune Pokemon is often enough to lose. When using a Sleeper, it's critical to figure out which Pokemon are your opponent's Goggles users without having to spend a turn doing it. The way you do this is by identifying likely Goggles users at preview, then proceeding under the assumption that they are Goggles until you have sufficient evidence otherwise. There are a few tactics for sniffing this out. However, be aware that just because your opponent doesn't act like Goggles for a single turn, doesn't mean they definitely aren't Goggles. It's possible to bluff being a different item until they have the opportunity for a devastating reveal.

The easiest way is to try to prove they have a different item, as long as you can do it safely. For example, Heatran, Volcanion, and Aegislash often run Leftovers. Thund often runs Life Orb or Sitrus Berry. If you can get these item messages to reveal, you'll obviously know it's not Goggles. But be aware that all of these Pokemon run other items as well, like resist berries and Magnet.

Another pretty surefire way is to get yourself in a position where you have a guaranteed sleep. This means Amoong isn't threatened with a KO, and has an enemy target which can't Protect, be that because it doesn't run it (like MKang) or it just Protected. Usually you can afford to Spore the slot; if the Goggles mon switches in and reveals Goggles, now you know. If it does not switch in, that's evidence in itself. Unless the suspected user was threatened with a KO there, that makes it less likely to be Goggles.

Look at how careful your opponent is being with giving Amoonguss opportunities. Are they making sure to always be positioned in a way that Amoong can't come in? Or are they giving it freebies (e.g. killing something with Landorus Superpower next to their own Amoong). If the latter, you can be pretty sure they have a Goggles in the back.

Look at how the Pokemon behaves in front of Amoonguss. Does it switch or Protect? If a Pokemon acts like it's afraid of Amoonguss, it probably is. Here's an illustration: Say you have Amoong + Diancie against a Thundurus. Rather than just clicking RP + DStorm, try switching Amoong out and Protecting Diancie. If the Thundurus boldly hits Flash Cannon, it's probably Goggles.

Lastly, and most importantly, unless you're in a situation where "if it's Goggles I lose anyway," do not just hope it isn't Goggles! Scout it. XY is a pretty slow paced metagame, especially if you're running Amoonguss. You generally have the time to figure it out.

The Users

I said you need to identify Goggles users at Preview, so I'll go more in depth on that here. A general guide is that anything which resists Grass and can't OHKO Amoong is a candidate, but here's a quick list of the notables. Most teams in XY have two Spore immunities, though three is not rare and one is possible. Zero is right out. Look at how strong their Amoonguss matchup is outside of immunities (do they have a lot of ways to KO it? Do they have a lot of Protect users? Is their team very offensive? Do they have TR?) to try to guess how many Goggles there are.

Heatran - The most common Goggles user. Can easily switch in on Amoonguss and get a free momentum with Goggles. It can also effectively bluff Goggles with Shuca (or vice versa). You should always play under the assumption that Tran is both Goggles and Shuca until proven one way or the other.

Volcanion - Min Speed, Goggles Volcanion is a common sight on teams which have a rough TR matchup. A common TR core is Amoonguss + Heatran, and Goggles Volcanion underspeeds Heatran in TR and can OHKO it next to Amoonguss. Additionally, a lot of XY TR teams are full of middling speed Pokemon and depend on Amoonguss to sleep slow things. If you see a team that looks weak to TR and has a Volcanion, definitely assume it's minspeed Goggles.

Thundurus - Both fast and slow Thund can run Goggles for different reasons. Fast Thund is often slapped on Diancie weak teams, but Diancie is often paired with Amoonguss. Goggles lets this Thund OHKO Diancie through Amoonguss support, so if a fast Thund is not proven to be LO, you should assume Goggles. Note that lately Thund have been running Magnet to bluff Goggles, so you should keep that option in mind as well. Slow Thund rarely runs Goggles as Sitrus is usually better, but it can happen.

Aegislash - Same principle as Heatran, really. Any other bulky Steel would run Goggles as well, if any others existed.

Cresselia - Cresselia is a much better Pokemon if it doesn't have to worry about Spore. Frankly, I don't believe other Cresselia items exist.

Any TR Setter - TR needs a lot of help with Amoong, for the obvious reason that it makes it very fast. TR always has at least 2 Spore immunities, maybe 3, and setters make good goggles users. They're generally bulky, sit on the field a lot, and are Psychic type.

Any Follow Me - If you can redirect Spore, you shit on Amoonguss's whole week. Goggles Jirachi was by far its most common item, but now that Jirachi doesn't exist, this is rare.

Thanks for reading. Have fun playing XY, and don't lose to Goggles.

Platinum God n1n1

the real n1n1
is a Tiering Contributor
For reference, here was the final VR pre-jirachi ban

I think the previous VR was pretty good, although it was a bit crowed in Tier 1 and 2. I am curious if that was part of the reason for some of the big changes.

my thoughts on the shifts in tiers 1 through 2

Aegislash moves down from 1 to 1.5
I disagree. It is the premier Wide Guard support mon and one of the best Safety Goggles wearer. It has good match up against 2 of the top megas (diancie, gard). And it is also one of the toughest Sub-leftie mons in the game. It fits the tier 1 description well

Mega Charizard Y, Mega Diancie, and Mega Gardevoir all move down from 1 to 1.5
Interesting, I think Mega Diancie and Mega Gardevoir fit the tier 1 description but at the same time Kang is clearly the #1 mega and arguably deserves its own spot at the top. CharY moving down makes sense to me, it has the worst genie match up of the bunch.

Volcanion moves down from 1 to 1.5
Fair move imo. Heatran is the premier fire mon. Volcanion suffers from the tier 1 and1.5 mons(genies, diancie, dragons) more than most of the others. Its coverage is fantastic but its low speed makes it very vulnerable to being double targeted.

Hydreigon and Latios move down from 1.5 to 2
This is one of the cases were I think we forgot how good they were in Gen 6 because of how bad they are in Gen 7.
The new VR implies Kyurem is the premier dragon. I strongly disagree with placing Kyurem above these guys, they should be on the same level. Both Hydreigon and Latios out speed Kyruem and KO with Draco. Also both are among the best TW setters. They also are stronger Special Attackers than Kyurem. Hydregion has probably the best coverage of the dragons if running 3 attacks (Draco, Dark Pulse, EP) and Latios is the only one out running base 100s and 108s. I think all these 3 dragons each offer something value for different teams, I dont like any one is more splashable than another. They are really all equal 1.5 tier dragons to pick which ever suits your team best.

Keldeo moves down from 1.5 to 2
Another case of bad gen7 being Forgotten. It has some fantastic match ups that shouldnt be over looked: Kyrurem, Hydregon, Kang, Lando, Heatran, Lando, Volcanion. And even more mons that happen to switch into an Icy Wind. Also do not forget Quick Guard was a thing in Gen6, it can be an extremely valuable move. It is the only viable fighting that doenst care about intimidate. I think this is the best water mon in the game.

Sylveon moves up from 2 to 1
Big move here. With Jirachi gone Sylveon deserves to move up. Iron Head flinches were absolutely deviating. I think Tier 1.5 description better suits the characteristic of Sylveon.

Rotom-W moves down from 1.5 to 2
Its fine I guess, especially if Stoss Kang is becoming a thing

Cresselia moves up from 2 to 1.5
I think it was fine in tier 2. Its can be completely dead weight in way to many match ups to be given this high of a ranking.

Mega Gengar moves up from 2 to 1.5
I guess this is ok. It was nommed a few times to 1.5 in the past but never made it until now, which is odd given that Jirachi was a reason to use Mega Gengar.

Bisharp, Deoxys-A, Ferrothorn, Gengar, Terrakion, Mega Venusaur move down from 2 to 3
Disagree with all of these except mega Venusuar. I feel like these mons were victim to the VR being "cleaned up" rather than actually being less viable.
Bisharp is a huge threat to 99% of teams (teams with intimidate) in Gen 6 Sucker Punch was stronger than it is now and priority moves didnt receive nerf due to some abilities. Its was a staple of tier 2, dont see a reason for that to change.
Deoxys-A runs sash with Psycho and Superpower which gives great coverage - Pyscho kills genes (outspeed adamant lando), diancie, and other top tier mons, while Super Power takes care of dark types and steels. Its Speed and Power are unique and amazing.
Ferrothorn is one of the best, arguably the best stall out winners, rain checks, and Kang check in the game. If you manager to remove fire types this mon can just win, and has proven so.
Gengar is a very utility mon in Gen6. it has lots of options Wisp, Taunt, Icy Wind, Disable, and powerful stabs Sludge Bomb and Shadow Ball. This move pool with its 110 speed gives it good match ups versus lots of top tier mons. It also have levitate in Gen 6, very nice.
Terrakion being able to take out both Kang and CharY has made this mon a staple of tier 2. No reason to drop it, it fits the tier 2 description.

Gyarados, Landorus-I, Rotom-H, Salamence drop out of the VR from tier 2
I'm tired of typing, might write something later


Banned deucer.
So... what needs to be done for a Skymin retest? I know #Justice4Skymin is a bit of a meme in the DOU community but I'm very serious about this. It wouldn't have been banned with the vote threshold of literally any other DOU suspect, and I think the general (though not unanimous) consensus is that it is not and was never broken. Additionally I suspect it would be a boon for the meta with its excellent fatkang matchup.


Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I voted no ban and felt pretty strongly about it bc I didn't find skymin broken. At the same time I'm generally only in favor of tinkering with past gens if the meta is bad and if it will clearly improve the meta. I don't think at this point that Stratos has put enough meat on the bones of how freeing Skymin would do that.

That said, there may be something there...

Watching oras doubles games can pretty boring these days though when so many matches have like 5/6 same mons. And Skymin did work well with other builds. If the majority of the community values diversity - and not everyone does - then that'd be a good reason to do it.


Banned deucer.
I don't have strong opinions with the other samples because I haven't played hundreds of games with them but there are a few things that should be changed on the THALKS sample for sure:
  • Kang PuP -> SToss. PuP helps in some rough matchups but SToss is essential for having a gameplan vs Diancie with this team—does 82% which puts it in range of -1 Sucker. Additionally SToss gives you more maneuverability around Lando-T which is important with Sylv last because the team doesn't have the greatest Lando-T switch options. Helps with Wisp Gar too. With SubTran and SubSylv the team is already spread thin with supporting setup attackers and Kang having immediate damage output is better. Sylv is a better cleaner than Kang in the current meta so.
  • Amoong Giga Drain -> Energy Ball. EBall is just better. It breaks Volcanion's Sub and just generally hits harder... when's the last time Giga healing ever did anything?
  • Sylv min Spe -> 1 Spe IV (at least). I understand that minspeed Sylv is important for dealing with TR, so anything in the 113-129 range is fine to me (that's between minspeed Aegi and minspeed Volcanion). But I am opposed to tying other minspeed 60s. Aegislash are often minspeed outside of TR, and you want to move faster than it so you can SubProtect cheese it.
  • Actually marilli just pointed out to me in PM that it's actually 8 Spe EVs and 0 Spe IV on Sylv. That's obviously stupid. Up the IV, put the EV in SpA or something.
  • Sylv Modest -> Sassy. 0 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. +1 248 HP / 0+ SpD Sylveon: 84-98 (21.3 - 24.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery. Enough said. Not worth the investment to get rid of the 1/16 chance for a sub break though.
  • Thund spread is just inefficient. 244 Def / 8+ Spe gets 1 point more of Speed, same Def and saves 16 EVs to invest wherever you want.
  • Another gripe about the Thund spread—why so little HP investment and then invest so much in both defenses? I'm no genius but this seems inefficient compared to just investing more in HP. For these calcs I just took the same out of each defense to max out HP, but there may be a more efficient spread.
    • 92 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Thundurus: 126-148 (34.8 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO vs 92 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 112 HP / 124 SpD Thundurus: 115-136 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    • 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Thundurus: 288-339 (79.5 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO vs 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Return vs. 112 HP / 244 Def Thundurus: 267-315 (81.6 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And some things which I think could probably be changed, but I'm open to hearing why they are the way they are:
  • Thund spread is weirdly fast. 285 isn't a notable speed tier; it's 4 faster than Adamant non-Scarf Lando but nobody creeps that anyway (because nobody runs that) and I see nothing else notable in the vicinity. It could drop down to 282 (creep Lando), 278 (creep Heatran), or even realistically no investment, because unscarf Adamant Lando doesn't exist and you'd honestly rather underspeed Heatran so it can't keep subbing on you. Alternatively you could go up to 310 (creep Jolly Lando) or even Max and run Goggles FC (mandatory if you want to keep PuP Kang imo), but right now it exists in a no-man's land.
  • One of Thund or Tran should probably be Goggles—I lean toward Thund, especially if we up its speed past Lando in which case it doesn't have as much use for Sitrus. This lets you play more aggressively with your own Amoong because you don't need it in the back as your only Spore switchin. However it could be that I just need to git gud here.
  • Why is the Tran spread so much bulkier than the smogdex standard? My first guess was live Lando EQ after a Sub but that doesn't seem to be the case.

As for the VR, I'll make a more detailed post on this when I think about it more later, but Azu is an obvious misfit for Tier 1. Rage Powder is too easy to circumvent and all the Follow Me users are too shit. It should move down to at least 1.5.


Banned deucer.
OK, talkingtree has told me that if I want to get the ball rolling on a Skymin reconsideration I need to start a real discussion in this thread about it, so here we go.

First of all, why is this a thing? Skymin was banned with only 54.7% of the vote as you can see in this thread. This would literally not have been possible in any other DOU suspect, because every other DOU suspect has had a supermajority threshold of 60% required for change. I'll call your attention to this thread about consistency in vote thresholds, particularly the following quotes from Tiering Directors:

ABR said:
2) OU, LC, and Monotype are regular tiers with no drops affecting them; they should be mostly static but not too difficult to see change in: 60%
Hikari said:
We'll be using the values in ABR's post as the soft standards for current gens. Tier Leaders are allowed to use different percentages if they wish to, as long as they justify properly and are planning to maintain their own standards long term; "pulling a macle" is strictly forbidden.
Arcticblast didn't provide such justification—I can't go back and provide proof that something didn't happen, but I remember literally not knowing that 51% was the Skymin vote threshold until he posted the blind voting thread. The previous vote was 60%. So it's overall pretty clear that were this to happen today, the threshold wouldn't have been 51% and it wouldn't have ever been banned. That's probably not enough to just come through and immediately unban Skymin because the XY meta has spent years crystalizing without Skymin around, but I think it's a solid enough argument that we should at least seriously reconsider it.

So the remaining question is: is Skymin broken enough that it needs to stay banned, despite being a victim of injustice? I think the answer here is a resounding "no." Skymin is good, don't get me wrong, but I think it would be a healthy addition to the current meta. It has only single target moves and has a lot of shaky or trade-based matchups with top threats, where it has to target them in order to win. For example, it can ignore Amoonguss's RP or chunk it with Air Slash, but on the other hand, if it ignores Amoonguss, it gets chunked by Sludge Bomb. Similar situation with Earth Power on Heatran, though that even just loses outright to healthy Shuca Tran. I won't belabor the point but there are many such cases. Additionally it has outright losing matchups such as Thund and Talon, and a lot of ones it has to get stupid lucky to win. Sash Skymin is also less of a guaranteed thing than it was back when, because SR exists now.

Two points really attract me to the idea of unbanning Skymin for the metagame. One: it provides useful grass-type defenses in a more active package than Amoonguss, which is currently the only grass that's more than fringe viable. Two: it shuts down CM Sylveon pretty hard, breaking +1 subs with Seed Flare and dropping SpD.

Overall I think what Skymin would serve as in the meta would be a powerful offensive utility counter with little sweeping potential, similar to Talonflame currently. As long as its partner can shut down the Pokemon it isn't attacking, it stays safe and remains threatening. Since the only redirector in the tier is Amoonguss (which synergizes terribly lol) this basically means its partner has to be offensive too. This is a pretty high-risk strategy for a mon whose main STAB is 85% accurate, so I think what people will do is give up on protecting Skymin and just let it make a few trades and die. I'd love to see some kind of suspect to validate my assumptions (or for it just to be unbanned outright, but that seems unlikely lol).

Please respond with your own thoughts. Thanks.

Platinum God n1n1

the real n1n1
is a Tiering Contributor
From my experience I never thought it was broken, just annoying similar to my feelings toward Thundy.

One think to consider is that Jirachi being banned makes it more powerful than it was before. Jirachi can redirect and resist its stabs. Also Jirachi threatens it with Icy Wind.

So unless Jirachi also gets unbanned I think it should be thoroughly suspected before unbanning because we have no experience playing with Skymin in a Jirachi-less meta.

Now that Stoss Kang is a thing, jirachi cannot redirect attacks from the best mon in the game like it could before. So I am in-favor of unbanning both together as they balance out well


Level 3
is a Tiering Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
If Shaymin-S is neither highly likely to be broken nor highly likely to be uncompetitive, then I feel it should be retested. If you're willing to go back to past gens to ban stuff, you should also consider unbanning stuff. 4th Gen OU had done this a while ago with retesting Latias.

The time at which Shamyin-S was banned was also further back than when Jirachi was first tested. The metagame had changed more between when Shaymin-S was first banned and between where Jirachi was tested and retested.

Now that Stoss Kang is a thing, jirachi cannot redirect attacks from the best mon in the game like it could before. So I am in-favor of unbanning both together as they balance out well
Jirachi was the last suspect banned with 11 votes ban to 1 unban. That's a strong majority. I wouldn't test it again until after a Shaymin-S test at least.
Last edited:


my favorite poem was the one i read to youuuuuuuuu
is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
RBTT Champion
Alrighty, now that Grand Prix's outta the way, figured I might share some insights on the current XY meta and how I wanted to attack it.

First and foremost, when I was planning to play this meta even back in DPL, it felt like XY was at a standstill; THALK + Sylv (henceforth THALK) had too much of a stranglehold on the meta, and it seemed like everyone was pretty resigned to this reality. Of course, there's no one to blame here as XY is a past meta, offering little to gain to overtly innovate, and THALK as a team is very sound and quite reliable already, the pieces all synergizing quite well. Even so, I did feel that this takes away some of the excitement of the game; while similarly-structured teams going vis-a-vis is a competitive skill test and a valid way of appreciating the game, there is also a dimension of metagame-building that we're missing out on if this becomes a constant. There is an enjoyment that can be extracted in going against the grain, both for the spectator and the player; it means that it's not watching the near-same lines of play all over again, and it keeps the game fresh both in-play and within the builder as the more spread range of threats allow for more complex decisions. As someone coming from time out of the game and not overtly concerned with the entirety of the circuit itself, I figured that taking up the challenge of, at least, challenging asserted notions in the meta was something I could do.

Looking at THALK's construction, I did see that it had no Fire-resists whatsoever aside from Heatran; in addition, its only form of speed control lied in Thundurus, which isn't something that can be very liberal with its health. With this in mind, I took a particular leaning to Mega Charizard Y as it is a very strong attacker that outran pretty much everybody in the THALK, being able to intensely pressure everything and get fast picks when played in a particularly aggressive manner. The set that I ran pretty much every time is this:

Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Overheat
- Protect

This set isn't actually a new innovation, but it wasn't used quite extensively or to any notable success either until now (Zard Y itself being on the wayside). This set pretty much fits my rationale of targeting THALK as much as possible, and even outside of that match-up this set can hold its own as it can fulfill the role of hard-hitting fast attacker just as fine. Max Speed and Max SpA is pretty important as this lets me play the match-up against Mega Kangaskhan, confirmed slower Landorus-T, and Kyurem-B among other things with confidence; a bulky set would compromise either Zard Y's ability to outrun threats or get kills, thusly failing at the very premise I picked it for. I discarded Solar Beam and instead chose to run both HP Ground and Overheat; from a metagaming perspective, non-rain Water-types have pretty much fallen out of favor for one reason or another, meaning I would get more mileage out of HP Ground and Overheat together. Having this package means that I have a measure against Heatran while still retaining the ability to delete a Pokemon slot at will, meaning I can push either damage with Heat Wave or KOs on a whim--this particular combination is also what makes this Zard Y really stellar versus THALK.

Of course, Zard Y cannot handle the match-up alone--Thundurus can be a bit dicey with Thunder Wave or it can be just faster and Thunderbolt, Landorus-T can pin if it's Choice Scarf, and Heatran often runs Shuca so this cannot be my sole answer. I attacked this matter in two different ways: SemiRoom and Classic Venusaur Sun. Both variations were used extensively in XY Cup (Venu Sun once in Playoffs), and I will discuss them below.

major blow man (Charizard-Mega-Y) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Overheat
- Protect

the IDIOT (Heatran) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 7 Spe
- Eruption
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power
- Protect

T-Mobile (Hoopa-Unbound) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magician
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Atk / 124 SpA
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Hyperspace Fury
- Hyperspace Hole
- Trick Room
- Protect

he who cant walk (Diancie) @ Stone Plate
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
Brave Nature
IVs: 1 Spe
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Trick Room
- Protect

dawobleGOAT (Amoonguss) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 1 Spe
- Rage Powder
- Spore
- Energy Ball
- Protect

milkman (Landorus-Therian) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- U-turn
- Superpower
This was built at the tail-end of DPL with a little help from MajorBowman. Originally a Mega Gardevoir build, some pieces were changed around a bit in order to change push the aggression; Mega Charizard Y and Heatran together in this poises the team for a brazy Trick Room assault as the sun from Drought can push Eruption to lethal power, while Diancie and Hoopa-U are both stalwart Trick Room attackers that can alternate in taking the burden of setting by the match-up. Zard Y and Scarf Landorus comprise the fast segment of the squad, a fully invested, positive nature base 100 Speed attacker outrunning a lot already based on my read on the current metagame and Lando being great at stifling most threats in general. Amoonguss flexes as an out-of-room supporter and an in-room menace, rounding out the build by providing a defensive measure for such an offensive Trick Room team.

In terms of the THALK match-up, I leveraged the fact that Amoonguss can stifle Mega Kangaskhan and Thundurus for a tiny window for Mega Charizard Y to take quick picks; meanwhile, Trick Room is here to just ramp up the pressure overall, particularly against Choice Scarf Landorus-T. The team doesn't really show slowness outside of Trick Room; a lot of the 108s and 110s died out of the meta, leaving Zard supreme in most cases to be an aggressor, while Landorus-T and Amoonguss niftily cover as necessary. Opposing Amoonguss can be annoying as the TR option won't be as free and will be reliant on Heatran; once Amoonguss is dealt with, Hoopa-U and Diancie can go pretty brazy. Ironically, this team lost its pilot game versus THALK; I picked a really short-sighted line of play in retrospect, but regardless this team proceeded to win pretty much every game I've used it for since.

infamous blaze (Charizard-Mega-Y) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Overheat
- Protect

yardage (Heatran) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon
- Protect

union (Venusaur) @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 32 HP / 24 Def / 252 SpA / 200 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Powder
- Protect

needle (Zapdos) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 76 SpA / 124 SpD / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Tailwind
- Roar

buttonholes (Rhydon) @ Eviolite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 200 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Icy Wind
- Stealth Rock

yoke (Landorus-Therian) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- U-turn
- Superpower
This team was a much more recent development, something I devised for Ezrael for what I believe to be was R3 of XY Cup. This actually had a Hydreigon before, for another check to Heatran as well as another provider of speed control, but Rhydon was swapped in to negate Thundurus altogether. The team is less reliant on conditions to gain tempo, instead relying on positional play as well as the quick setting of Sun to get going. Sun is what gets this team's gears really going; it activates Venusaur and allows it to cover Choice Scarf Landorus, a Life Orb Leaf Storm being capable of sending it packing to the next game, while Heatran gets to enjoy doubling as both a pivot and a lynchpin in the team's offense. The rest of the team is based on supporting my trio of Sun attackers: Zapdos provides the team some speed in Tailwind and is a check for both Talonflame and Landorus-T; Rhydon provides quick support in stifling Thundurus, providing Stealth Rocks, and being a nice tank in general; and Choice Scarf Landorus-T does Choice Scarf Landorus-T things. As one can also note, Zapdos is running Roar instead of Roost; this is because I value aggressive play more and I feel that Roost is simply too defensive to afford, Roar instead handy for phazing and denying Trick Room.

The primary focus with this team, when it comes to facing THALK, should be to take Mega Kangaskhan out of the equation quickly. It's the X-factor of the match-up, the one that can't be carried by a defensive type-matchup and is capable of pushing for the most damage. Usually it will be aggression with Mega Charizard Y or positional play with Landorus-T and Heatran that does the job; I've opened up a lot of games where Mega Kangaskhan just dies to an Overheat turn 1, and often it's taking favorable trades from there. The non-Fire-type pieces can be split for specific threats in the match-up: Venusaur is primarily for Choice Scarf Landorus-T and Sylveon, Rhydon and Zapdos for the genies and Heatran, and Landorus-T as a blanket but also particularly for Mega Kangaskhan. Thundurus, something that threatens these kinds of builds but also Zard as a Pokemon with Thunderbolts and paralysis, is abated by simply having the bulky Rhydon, negating one of the biggest threats to the team pretty quickly.

Something I want to highlight in particular is the effectiveness of the combination of Mega Charizard Y and Heatran. I remember me and Stratos having a discussion about this once before, and we agreed that Heatran really key piece to have on Zard Y teams if not an outright necessity. In these builds, Heatran just provides that crucial combination of power and ability to pivot that's just too hard to pass up; it doubles both as part of the framework's defensive backbone as well as its big hitter, and with how easy it is to summon Sun it can do these roles pretty seamlessly. As Stratos put it, threats just melt to Heatran in sun when neutrally hitting. With both Fires packing Fire + Ground coverage, the entirety of THALK is pretty much covered offensively; their combined presence also guarantees that Sylveon has little to offer, its presence stifled by having two hard-hitters that match up against it very dominantly. Amoonguss is also effectively negated as a whole, its Rage Powder rendered futile and itself turning to ash against Heat Wave; with that in mind, 1/3 of THALK are effectively non-factors, the rest being things that can be reasonably prepared for.

Playing XY this extensively again after a long time has been really enjoyable for me. All in all, while the meta for XY has its already asserted threats and premises, I do believe that there is still room for attempts, especially since the Jirachi ban. Something that can be explored is Mega Metagross, maybe, as it's a threat that is now much freer with such a strong counter now locked up in Ubers; I digress, but regardless I do believe that challenging this metagame and attacking it is something we should try to do, not just in competitive spirit but also for the fun and enjoyment of the game, as dry as that would sound.

I shall post about my takes on the VR and my take on Skymin next time. Have a good one :blobthumbsup:
Last edited:


my favorite poem was the one i read to youuuuuuuuu
is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
RBTT Champion
Sorry for the double post, but after a thorough look, here are my proposed changes to the Viability Rankings and the Skymin thoughts as promised

Azumarill: 1 -> 2

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that Azumarill is no longer the dominant force that it once was. The loss of its partner-in-crime Jirachi really gutted its ability to sweep, with Amoonguss simply not cutting it as a redirector. It only makes sense that it drops a rank; however, it became so lost in irrelevance that I propose that it drop two ranks instead, relegated to tier 2 where its now niche ability to sweep rightfully fits. It's simply not relevant enough meta-wise for me to comfortably say that it's at the level of the likes of Talonflame, Kyurem-B, or Cress, all threats that have actually seen usage in the recent Cup and Grand Prix. It's not as generally viable, but its capability to sweep with the proper support and match-up should leave it a fit for Tier 2 still.

Sylveon: 1 -> 1.5

For the record, this isn't really a pure THALK hate nom lol. While I did feel that this ranking was justified at one point purely due to the dominance of THALK, at the present things are currently changing. It would be fair to say now that THALK's chokehold on the meta is now in a bit of jeopardy--Sylveon, if it wasn't part of this team, wouldn't really deserve 1 in my eyes. This is purely because it is not as splashable to teams as the genies or Amoong are. Putting Sylveon on teams requires more nuance and thought, itself lacking the universal application that the rest of my (proposed) tier 1 of MKang, Heatran, Amoong, and Genies have. These five have seen significant usage outside of the THALK framework while Sylveon hasn't, and with THALK now less reliable I believe it's time for it to slide.

Aegislash: 1.5 -> 2

This one was hard, tbh. I kept mulling over the fact that I really am proposing Aegislash, of all Pokemon, to be Tier 2, and with good reason: Steel as a whole is not as relevant as it once was, and common match-ups in the metagame right now leave a lot to be desired. It just feels too dicey of a Pokemon to use in the metagame right now as, while it can leverage its serviceable bulk, it often becomes victim to frequent losing positions in-game, with Heatran in particular being a really no-brainer pick among other threats that can damage Aegi in the meta, such as Mega Zard Y, Hoopa-U, and Landorus-T. A Dragon resistance is not as valuable while resistances to Fairy are easy to find in other ways, dampening Aegislash's value even more. If anything, the value of having Wide Guard will prove key, but it really isn't something that breaks the barrier for 1.5; to illustrate, one can only look at the top replays for XY Cup and Grand Prix Playoffs, where it made little mark. To be fair to it, I do consider it the top Pokemon in 2 if ever, if not the floor of 1.5.

Mega Diancie: 1.5 -> 2

Controversial nomination #2, I do feel that Mega Diancie is in a really awkward position in the metagame right now and it showed with its dismal showing in the recent tours. As a Pokemon, it has always been a bit quirky; its base 110 Speed leaves it smack dab in the middle of the critical 110 and 130 speed tiers, masking its average bulk and leaving it free to Diamond Storm a bunch, which always hit for damage that always felt like they could be doing more. It doesn't have the outright power of Mega Charizard Y or Mega Gardevoir, the Speed and utility of Mega Gengar, or the sheer universality of Mega Kangaskhan; it's basically a compromise of the spread damage and Speed among the Megas that can be played aggressively. However, base 110 simply isn't that crucial as it one was, and recent trends can make its life much harder. It always had problems with Landorus-T and Safety Goggles Thundurus, but the emergence of a much more aggressive Rain and builds that can shrug off Diamond Storms in SemiRoom make its life as an attacker too hard. While it's still capable of dominance, I feel that there are better choices right now.

Latios: 2 -> 3

Latios just doesn't have much going for it anymore--its Speed tier isn't relevant anymore, its STAB coverage is walled by the common Heatran, and its prey to pretty much every relevant faster Attacker (Talonflame, Mega Gengar) and Mega Kangaskhan. Literally no one used this except that one guy who used Glennn in this day and age. While Tailwind combined with the Speed tier is nice, there are more consistent and better options. Its viability is strikingly low, and it's also pretty irrelevant.

Keldeo: 2 -> 3

This is pretty much the same principle as Latios, to be honest. While beating Mega Kangaskhan is nice, it is pretty much royally walled by Amoonguss, and it's disarmed if not outright escorted to the next game by Thundurus. This was not used, though its ability to demolish both Heatran and Mega Kangaskhan is well noted; even still, there's only really specific builds in which this fits, itself not really providing much utility other than being a hitter. I'd mostly pass unless I have a Mega Gengar or something.

Hydreigon: 2 -> 1.5

Hydreigon was a victim of the shift to a more THALKed up metagame along with Latios, though unlike the Eon, Hydreigon was actually pretty poised to strike up the rankings. Sylveon's presence in the metagame was really the only thing that was keeping this guy down; otherwise Hydreigon is a pretty deserving Pokemon for 1.5. Its base 98 Speed, while short of tying with Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Charizard Y, still leaves it a predator to Kyurem-B and non-Scarf Landorus-T. Meanwhile, it has a stellar combination of defensive typing, bulk, offensive prowess, and utility in Tailwind that renders it a valuable piece in most cases. It can be pretty handy for switching in to the likes of Heatran and Volcanion, while its Dragon / Dark coverage leaves it capable of hitting everyone neutrally i.e. unlike Latios it's not damn walled. With Sylveon's clasp of the metagame shrinking, I believe Hydreigon is deserving of a promotion for the things that it can and always has been doing.

Diancie: 3 -> 2

Diancie is a surprisingly strong and splashable Pokemon if you're looking at building a SemiRoom team or two. Its considerable bulk and defensive typing render it capable of sponging neutral hits with ease and gives it some really handy match-ups; Mega Kangaskhan has to Seismic Toss to do significant damage which is a confirmed non-kill without assistance, while EP from Heatran and EQ from Landorus-T don't even come close to KOing. This isn't even counting the fact that foes are apprehensive of hitting it with a super-effective move that does not secure the kill, fearing the threat of Weakness Policy. On that note, Diancie is also an unseeming menace offensively, its Diamond Storms unable to be weakened by Intimidate thanks to Clear Body; in conjunction with the Defense boosts, it can surprisingly take over some games if left unchecked, especially if cheekily equipped with a Stone Plate or something. Diancie stands as a really strong pick for a Trick Room setter that does not want to give up any offensive pressure at all as, unlike Cresselia, its offensive presence is immediate; this fact also renders it a viable teammate for Amoonguss in SemiRoom squads, as having Cresselia and Amoonguss in one team can end up being too slow for some teams to swallow. It's very much a deserving Pokemon for Tier 2, and if it somehow makes it to 1.5 in the future I wouldn't even be surprised.

Ludicolo and Venusaur: UR -> 3

Weather teams, for some reason or another, have seen a bit of an evolution as of late. Rain has seen a trend of aggressively using more than one Swift Swimmer, and if one of them isn't Mega Swampert then Ludicolo becomes the sole viable choice. It has shown to be an effective Pokemon in these kinds of Rain, even starring on both teams in the XY match of the Grand Prix final. On the other hand, Venusaur, while definitely much more niche, has seen valid use as a lynchpin in stifling faster foes in my Mega Charizard Y teams. While of course not the best of the best, the use of these Pokemon are shown to be indeed valid, albeit niche, and thusly deserving of a lowly Tier 3 ranking.

Jellicent and Milotic: 3 -> UR

They are pretty irrelevant Water-types. Unlike the rest of Tier 3, which for some reason or another have a valid and distinct niche that would merit them being picked, these guys are just simply outclassed. There are better things to use.


Re: Shaymin-Sky

I'm essentially going to echo Stratos here and say that there absolutely should be consideration for dropping Shaymin-Sky back into the XY DOU metagame. Of course, while the way it got to DUbers in the first place is dubious at best, I'd suppose we focus on what Shaymin-S brings to the table now; while what happened back then was quite heinous administratively, what's done is done, and the metagame has changed and evolved.

It is of my tiering philosophy that, when we drop Pokemon from DUbers to DOU, what we should consider is not the possibility of it being a healthy addition to the metagame, but rather whether or not it can exist in the metagame without being unhealthy and thus deserving of being in DUbers in the first place. The rhetoric, while pragmatically similar, are different in essence, as instead of tackling why it fits in DOU, what I am presenting is reasons why a Pokemon should not be in DUbers, my take of DUbers being a repository for Pokemon that bend the "health" of the standard metagame one way or another. Therefore, what is to assess here is the qualities of Shaymin-Sky and whether or not these render it a possibly unhealthy presence; I am not discounting what Stratos has presented, as they are also evidence of Skymin being "not unhealthy" through inference, but rather what I shall present is a different framing of a shared conclusion.

As I can remember it, Skymin wasn't actually particularly sinister as a threat; if anything could have been a measure of it being unhealthy, it would have been its flinch rate. For full transparency, this is core to the argument for why I voted to ban it back then, but my stance has since changed. Skymin, as a threat, is simply a fast attacker with a nifty speed tier, strong single-target STABs, average bulk, an a nifty ability to break a foe special defensively; nothing here actually screams broken to me, as it's pretty much a high-speed damage trader with a bonus. Is it strong? Probably, but not really something that I could reasonably say unhealthy.

In terms of fit to the meta, it doesn't even look like it'll break anything too hard. A slew of threats, such as Scarf Landorus-T, Thundurus, Shuca Tran, Talonflame, and rain... among others, can go toe-to-toe with it handily. By the very nature of how it is as an attacker, it'll also be a bit reliant on trades; if it wants to support with Tailwind, it loses out a coverage move, and even then a fast Tailwinder that's not damn Talonflame isn't gamebreaking at all. As Stratos mentioned, the old Sash set it used to run may not be as consistent as it was with SR now a more prominent factor, so it can't leverage that either. It's not going to warp the metagame around it nor is it gonna monopolize a style or role or something; based on my read on it, it'll just be... there, which is honestly a good outcome if ever.

Its ability doesn't seem like it could break it, now that I think about it from a fresher perspective. Its ability to Seed Flare SpDef drop, while powerful, honestly seems like a pretty reasonable niche to me; it's not as if it would make noticeable differences every time when paired with already strong attackers, it only really being handy for breaking something resisted or something excessively bulky like a Cresselia. Air Slash flinches on the other hand... while luck-based, they can be taken to a point where they seem fair enough. There's an inherent opportunity cost with attacking due to the nature of being a single-target attacker, and its bulk renders this cost much more apparent; this is something that can be reasonably played around, as a matter of course if nothing else, without much fanfare. Meanwhile, both of its STABs also come at the cost of being inaccurate, and therefore unreliable and inconsistent; its nature as an attacker also relegates it to specific team compositions and prey to some others. While the nature of its being attacker has its potential, inherent and external factors will stifle Skymin's overt dominance, I believe.

Overall, I do feel that dropping Skymin to DOU should be voted on in some form. Of course, it would be unfair to do that without seeing its fit in the present environment (regardless of the fairness of it getting banned in the first place). What I propose is that we do tour / series of tours wherein Skymin is present in the XY DOU metagame. Things are different, Jirachi is banned, yadda yadda yadda; it's only due diligence on our part as players to experience such a metagame with Skymin in it before we assess it. The soonest tour we have that has XY on it is DPL (I think), so we have all the time in the world to do this. Hopefully the administration would consider, in appreciation of the game.
Last edited:


Banned deucer.
I'll just respond in detail to the above nominations which I disagree strongly with.

Sylveon: 1 -> 1.5

CM Sylv is probably the strongest wincon in XY at the moment, if it gets 1-2 free turns (to CM and Sub, sometimes the Sub is free after the CM automatically) the game is almost always just over. It gets used with THALK a lot because Fake Out, redirection, stat drops, and Twave are ways to create free turns, but they're not all necessary for a CM Sylveon build. We've also been seeing a resurgence of Shake-style speed control + Specs / LO sylv and it puts in work.

Jellicent: 3 -> UR

This didn't get used much in prix because the only fullroom team i remember seeing in prix was hard sun, but it's still a good setter, since it can completely ignore MKang. Other setters have to respect the Fake Out which gives the opposing team the opportunity to pivot to an anti-lead, and then they get chunked by Stoss. Goggles Jelli don't give a fuck (well it can still get flinched by Scrappy FO but that's much more situational). Definitely still worth listing—it's probably better than P2 in this meta...

Hydreigon: 2 -> 1.5

This thing has mediocre bulk (usually 2HKOed) and suffers from really bad 4MSS. For example, you have to choose between actually forcing out Heatran (EPower) or running Tailwind, unless you want to drop Dark Pulse I guess... in which case you have no spammable STAB. Draco Meteor just really isn't that powerful in Fat XY where it doesn't OHKO a single Pokemon in Tier 1. This really doesn't have many good high-level matchups. It's probably better than Latios at the moment—probably—but I don't think it belongs in Tier 1.5.

Full support on the azu / venu / ludi noms, and I'm more torn on the rest.


my favorite poem was the one i read to youuuuuuuuu
is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
RBTT Champion
Good day, everyone!

In an effort to revitalize the management of all things XY DOU, particularly its resources and references but possibly also its tiering-related issues, we have organized a group of accomplished and tenured players to act as, essentially, consultants to anything that needs to be addressed--all, of course, in the interest of making XY DOU as easily accessible and enjoyable as possible. Though XY DOU is considered an old gen, it still has a notable presence in our tournament scene, as it is a notable feature of DOU Grand Prix and a mainstay of our annual Doubles Premier League. Even more, the metagame still has its enthusiasts, including but not limited to those included in the management team. These are all a testament to how this generation is still of value to us as a community.

The users included in the team are: Charlotte, Kiichikos, MajorBowman, Memoric, qsns, stax, and Stratos

I have also been granted control over this thread and the posts holding its various resources. Expect updates to them in the coming time!


One of these updates is happening immediately: we have now voted on the nominations made post-DOU Grand Prix! Here are the shifts:


:Azumarill: Azumarill: 1 -> 2
:Aegislash: Aegislash: 1.5 -> 2
:Diancie-Mega: Mega Diancie: 1.5 -> 2
:Latios: Latios: 2 -> 3
:Keldeo: Keldeo: 2 -> 3
:Milotic: Milotic: 3 -> UR


:Ludicolo: Ludicolo: UR -> 3

One last thing: we would also like to encourage more discussion regarding Shaymin-Sky, in particular (entertaining) the possibility of it dropping down to XY DOU. I understand that people have different philosophies and different assessments on Skymin as a Pokemon, and thus would like to see more people voice their thoughts out on the matter. Stratos and I have already posted our takes on the matter, and I encourage those interested to do the same on this thread.

That's all, have a good one everyone! :blobthumbsup:


my favorite poem was the one i read to youuuuuuuuu
is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
RBTT Champion
More nominations for VR:

Rotom-W: 2 -> 3

The metagame has simply changed to a way that makes Rotom-W's style of pivoting to be ineffective. Developments have made Wisp significantly weaker and at times in vain. There are strikingly few physical atttackers in the meta that actually care about Wisp; the most significant one, Mega Kangaskhan, can get around the burn with Seismic Toss, rendering attempts to drop its Attack this way ineffective. Burn's only practical purpose right now is for chip damage, which is simply too slow.

It's pretty much outclassed by Thundurus, which has more practical purposes. It doesn't really compare well to Prankster Thunder Wave and Taunt, and it also doesn't have Thundurus's ability to be a fast attacker. The Water-typing doesn't help much in terms of pushing certain match-ups; at most, it's just a relatively better switchin to Fire-types as, even though it resists Water, the rain matchup is held pretty capably by Thundurus's TWaves. The nail on the coffin is the abundance of Amoonguss in the meta; THALK + Sylveon notably features it, and Amoong in general is a splashable pick for teams. Amoonguss wholly invalidates whatever presence Rotom-W has on offer; at least Thundurus can find reasonable ways out as it can Taunt as well as effectively run Safety Goggles.

Porygon2: 2 -> 3

This is more of a scaling concern than anything. As much as I respect Porygon2, I don't think it has the usage and general effectiveness to be alongside the likes of Mega Diancie, Azumarill, Aegislash, and whathaveyou. As one can note, XY DOU's pretty centralized; there are clear-cut best-of-the-bests while tier 1.5's best-of-the-rest, but even tier 2 is composed of Pokemon that are very powerful in their own right but just do not fit well when it comes to meta trends. The Pokemon in tier 2 are guys that could feature in a team pretty much every other time pretty comparably to the 1.5 guys but with less effectiveness; I do not think Porygon2 fits this description, itself being more niche and requiring a more nuanced teamcomp to be included in. Again, not a knock to its effectiveness; it's just that fat speed control Normal-type is too specific of a role.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)