XY NU Theorymon Discussion

[Martingale]

Thing is though, that Leavanny basically sucked last gen. It was outclassed at everything it does, it was frail, SR weak, and gets owned by some of the most common threats in the meta such as Jynx and Braviary. It can pretty much never sweep with SD either because it's STAB coverage is pretty lackluster for the most part and it's extremely easy to revenge kill. It got a pretty cool buff in the form of Sticky Web but it's not like Sticky Web is this insane must-have move on every single team, especially when the only viable user is such a poor Pokemon otherwise. While I don't doubt Leavanny will have a solid niche this gen I highly doubt it'll be THAT good.

You have to think that as of XY it will probably set its hazards and Baton Pass some boosts, namely Agility and Swords Dance. In BW this would have been a totally outclassed role with better abusers in NU.
Then Scolipede got Speed Boost. Bye bro.

The thing is that Leavanny isn't supposed to sweep. Even in permasun with Chlorophyll it's rather disappointing. As I said before it will probably find its role as an offensive support mon, a role which could be well filled by Scolipede in the past. Leavanny just has to pick its moments. As you have said, Leavanny isn't amazing, but it will fill a role that will be lacking at the moment.
Strictly speaking it's one of the most threatening Sticky Web users with Galvantula. So it may get to see more light in upper tiers too.

 

[Lolk]

I think Roselia is an interesting case with the new breeding mechanics. Sleep Powder and Spikes/Toxic Spikes are now legal. Already RU for half of BW, will this force Roselia back up? Some things to note are the new restricted sleep mechanics, which don't reset the timer upon switching, and Grass-type/Overcoat's immunity to powder moves. Defog also allows easy removal of hazards which is lame. That being said, it's not like Grass-types can do much to Roselia anyway, and Mandibuzz is leaving most likely. I don't think any of these cons are enough to keep roselia in the tier, come on, free hazards!

 

[Blast]

You have to think that as of XY it will probably set its hazards and Baton Pass some boosts, namely Agility and Swords Dance. In BW this would have been a totally outclassed role with better abusers in NU.
Then Scolipede got Speed Boost. Bye bro.

The thing is that Leavanny isn't supposed to sweep. Even in permasun with Chlorophyll it's rather disappointing. As I said before it will probably find its role as an offensive support mon, a role which could be well filled by Scolipede in the past. Leavanny just has to pick its moments. As you have said, Leavanny isn't amazing, but it will fill a role that will be lacking at the moment.
Strictly speaking it's one of the most threatening Sticky Web users with Galvantula. So it may get to see more light in upper tiers too.

Hazards + BP has really really bad 4MSS. You have to fit room for Sticky Web, BP, a boosting move, your STABs, probably Substitute, and so forth. It's also a lot of pressure for something frail like Leavanny to set up Sticky Web, boost, and pass it. Also a Baton Passing role is better left to Pokemon such as Combusken thanks to Speed Boost. I think the best Leavanny set would be Sticky Web / Leaf Blade / X-Scissor / either Knock Off or Baton Pass @ Life Orb or Focus Sash but that's aside the point. (Also just a side note but Sticky Web is illegal w/ Heal Bell iirc)

Now, I do agree that Leavanny will find a niche in upper tiers (so long as Galvantula / Smeargle keep their asses far, far away from RU). It's by far the most viable Sticky Web user, it's relatively fast, pretty strong, and has useful (albeit situational) STAB coverage. HOWEVER, what I don't agree with is whether that niche will be enough to justify Leavanny going to RU. Leavanny is still a pretty bad Pokémon, and the fact that it's being used for the sole purpose of Sticky Web doesn't really mean it WILL be used. Like I said, Sticky Web is cool and all, but it's not so incredible that you have to use it on every team you make, especially when your only option is to use a bad Pokémon like Leavanny. I mean, the RU Viability Rankings have tons of NU Pokémon that are viable, yet not used, and Leavanny will more than likely be one of them.

 

[Aasgier]

Leavanny has always been viable in NU even without Sticky Web, as long as you weren't stupid enough to run Swords Dance when Sawsbuck and Leafeon exist.

The problems with Leavanny, however, lie deeper. It is not that strong offensively due to that it lacks a 120 BP move, so you need a Life Orb to nab those KO's you need, which effectively means you cannot run a Sash. Leaf Blade has only 90 BP and X-Scissor only 80 so you need all the power you can get. 2HKO's on Musharna and Alomomola and the OHKO on Golurk is something you do not want to pass up at all. This is NU, where these mons are common and will stay common, after all. Things like Druddigon could also prove a huge hindrance to Leavanny provided they drop, especially since Rough Skin will break Leavanny's Sash as well and OHKO with a powerful attack.

Leavanny also wants to run Heal Bell or Knock Off, which are both illegal with Sticky Web as it is, not helping its case. It also wants to keep Synthesis, which can be used alongside Sticky Web but also takes up a moveslot Leavanny does not want to give up if it does so.

This is especially noticeable since Knock Off is very valuable on Leavanny, especially with the buff and the Steel-nerf, it screws so many of its counters over as they have a tendency to rely on Leftovers or their Choice Scarf to actually be a counter and Knock Off + STAB-move being now a 2HKO after sneaky pebbles (Braviary and Rotom-Fan come to mind, as they both fail to take a Leaf Blade).

As such, Leavanny's set will likely remain the same, just with Sticky Web slashed alongside Heal Bell and Knock Off.

Leavanny @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll / Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- X-Scissor
- Synthesis
- Knock Off / Heal Bell / Sticky Web

Leavanny will fulfill the same role as it used to do. Finding something to set up its support move on and kill some random things slower than it. Sticky Web is good, but not what made Leavanny viable in the past and not a move that is actually required on Leavanny if it stays NU. In higher tiers it is what makes Leavanny viable, but in NU, it is compromising Leavanny's other roles significantly.

Also, NU will likely have Shuckle, which is a better setter of Sticky Web since Shuckle is more likely to stick around against offensive teams, something Leavanny has never been good at.

Edit: A funny notion is; that while Leavanny needs LO for additional power, once it does it no longer needs Swords Dance because it gained the KO's it needed with the Orb already.

Also something else is, that it depends what else is going to be NU. If Leavanny can mow down threats on its own like in Stage 8, it doesn't need SW and would rather run Knock Off. If things like Jynx, Primeape and other Base 95's are everywhere, Leavanny is better off running Sticky Web.

 

[ninjawhitetiger]

Anybody else think that malamar might slip down to NU ? I mean it has a lack luster movepool and pretty meh stats all together, Also Doublade, if that thing slipped down to NU it would cause havock

 

[Brawlfest]

Anybody else think that malamar might slip down to NU ? I mean it has a lack luster movepool and pretty meh stats all together, Also Doublade, if that thing slipped down to NU it would cause havock

ninjawhitetiger how you doin buddy missed you boi <3

Either way, Doublade doesn't pose as large of a threat as Aegislash in OU, because of it's lack of Kings Shield and Stance Change. That being said, it still poses as an interesting Bulky Set Up Sweeper, comparable in typing to the likes of Gear Shift Klang, which IMO outclasses Doublade due to access to Gear Shift, as well as better stat distribution.

As for Malamar..It might come down to NU, but more likely than not it will be RU/UU due to its surprisingly deep support movepool. Wish it had Memento though.

 

[perplexingpool]

I've been using Leavanny in Pokebank OU to great success. I think Leavanny will do just fine as an offensive SW setter in NU, with solid speed and attacking stats, access to knock off and other useful support moves, and a solid attack stat.

EDIT: This is the set I've been using (it's usually my lead).

Leavanny @ Focus Sash
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- Sticky Web
- Knock Off
- Toxic
- Leaf Blade

 

[ninjawhitetiger]

ninjawhitetiger how you doin buddy missed you boi <3

Either way, Doublade doesn't pose as large of a threat as Aegislash in OU, because of it's lack of Kings Shield and Stance Change. That being said, it still poses as an interesting Bulky Set Up Sweeper, comparable in typing to the likes of Gear Shift Klang, which IMO outclasses Doublade due to access to Gear Shift, as well as better stat distribution.

As for Malamar..It might come down to NU, but more likely than not it will be RU/UU due to its surprisingly deep support movepool. Wish it had Memento though.

I was envisioning doublade as more of a bulky wall, give that thing an eviolite and it takes earthquakes like nobodies buisiness, And i have found it's subs to be very hard to break allowing for great opportunities to boost, it also gets access to 2 great boosting moves in swords dance and automize, and i do think that it is capable of a double dancing set due to it's sheer bulk, and as far as malamar goes, I would be really disappointed if that thing falls into a support role, the typing is soo good

 

[atomicllamas]

I was envisioning doublade as more of a bulky wall, give that thing an eviolite and it takes earthquakes like nobodies buisiness, And i have found it's subs to be very hard to break allowing for great opportunities to boost, it also gets access to 2 great boosting moves in swords dance and automize, and i do think that it is capable of a double dancing set due to it's sheer bulk, and as far as malamar goes, I would be really disappointed if that thing falls into a support role, the typing is soo good

I agree that it is unlikely Doublade will be NU, as it's physical bulk is greater than Mega-Aggron's by pure numbers when equipped with eviolite (this is what user Molk tells me). With access to Swords Dance, priority in Shadow Sneak, and perfect neutral coverage with Sacred Sword, it will definitely be a monster in the middle tiers and will not drop to NU easily.

Malamar is interesting, because I think it could be really good in NU, it has movepool up the wazoo and Superpower + Contrary on anything not named Spinda is definitely pro. However, contrary to your post Malamar actually has terrible (defensive) typing, it has no resistances barring an immunity to Psychic, and is cursed with a 4x weakness to the Bug-type and a weakness to Fairy as well, it has okay bulk, but not enough to take a ton of neutral STABs. It's offensive typing is alright, it is a lot better now with the steel-nerf, and it also has really good three-move coverage when factoring in Super Power, but I would still argue it's typing is more harmful than helpful in a meta likely to be filled with U-turn, shitty bugs, and fairies.

 

[Sidfrid]

ummmmm.... nobody will post thier toughts regarding the recent minitour? well i will

First and foremost: Malamar won't drop to NU, contrary + superpower will ensure this.

with that out of the way next come Fletchinder, I used a common Acrobatics + Flying Gem + Tailwind. Paired him with a Banded Sawk that really put the opponents in a dangerous zone. You may think that you can achieve the same with murkrow but Gale Wings give priority to ANY flying type moves, even attacking ones. So you don't need to care about your opponent speed as you can choose Acrobatics and stike first regarless (just need to be aware of other priorities moves, like zangoose quick attack and skuntank sucker punch). This is of course a niche set, but is a good niche anyway.

Another pokemon I tried was Auroros, I borrowed a VGC stategy: make a pokemon that is carrying an eject buttom use Hyper Beam (or Giga Impact) if the opponent pokemon survive the hit and hit you back, the eject buttom switch you out and you don't waste a turn charging. In paper Auroros seems a good choice for this strategy with Freezy Dry giving him an extra 30% boost on normal move and making them Ice-type. But only in paper, Auroros is very slow (although I was using ag T-wave mushy to help with this) and his weekness are way to common to swith in and out repeatly.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

oh right the recent minitour. I think it was a really good platform to try this metagame out. There were really cool strategies I've seen, including Weakness Policy Golem, Combusken, Dual Screens Meowstic-M, Belly Drum Slurpuff (which is more legit than you'd think), etc.

What I noticed throughout the tour is a lot of Sawk and Skuntank. Like DTC said in the op, they got pretty big buffs in Knock Off and the Steel nerf respectively. I battled DTC in round 1 and nearly got wrecked by his offensive trio of Skuntank + Jynx + Regice. My Metang was Pursuit trapped by Skunk and eventually it nearly resulted in a Jynx sweep, but fortunately I was able to pull off a win. What I'm saying is: Skuntank has more team options than before, be it with Primeape or Jynx. Similarly, Metang is going to be forced to drop an important move (most likely Bullet Punch) and use Earthquake if it doesn't want to get trapped by Skunk, but still has to undergo the Pursuit/Sucker Punch mindgames we all know and learned to despise. In round 2 I simply got rid of Metang and threw on Probopass, and subsequently never saw anyone use Metang in the tour, just so I could avoid Skunk troubles. It's likely going to be this way, with Metang dropping in usage in favour of Probopass. Sawk is really troublesome now, but since everyone has already talked about it I won't emphasize anymore

I'll touch on a few of those Pokemon I mentioned earlier. Weakness Policy Golem works really well thanks to Sturdy, priority, and most of all, the tendency for everyone to hit it with super effective moves. I mean, it has a huge number of weakness, all of which are extremely common in NU. And Golem being the troublesome little shit it is, everyone wants to kill it ASAP. In my battle vs FLCL, I was forced into a really tight spot by Weakness Policy Golem after I tried to kill it, and it ended up causing me some trouble as I had to predict around it, because priority and 2 powerful moves with near perfect coverage is a handful.

Meowstic-M is probably the new best Dual Screen user, and will probably be the backbone of hyper offense in XY NU. Prankster screens is really amazing and makes up for its relative lack of bulk, and can easily hop in multiple times each game to reset the screens. Thunder Wave is also an amazing support move that slows down huge offensive threats, meaning that if your Meowstic is alive, things like Scarf Jynx or Tauros need to beware of TWave stopping their sweep. Unfortunately it doesn't have a way to being in sweepers safely unlike Gardevoir, but let's face it, getting a guaranteed screen off in an emergency is great for any setup sweeper or offensive team for that matter.

Belly Drum Slurpuff is just underrated IMO. I nearly got swept by it vs Metal Sonic but fortunately Aftermath from Skunk saved me. With Kanga gone and Metang usage dropping, Slurpuff isn't very afraid of priority moves anymore (it's bulky enough to live Sucker Punches and weaker priority). Metal Sonic used Sitrus Berry with Play Rough, Return and Belly Drum. While it can't defeat Steel-types, they're 1) easy to wear down especially with Steel nerf and 2) not very common to begin with, so this 2-move coverage is actually good enough to sweep.

I'll probably post my other thoughts soon when they enter my head. Meanwhile here are the replays of my matches in the minitour for your viewing pleasure, and I hope everyone else posts replays too so we get to know this meta better!

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/fusx-xynupreview-81 vs DTC
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/fusx-xynupreview-65 vs Haund
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/fusx-xynupreview-84 vs FLCL

Unfortunately I didn't save my battle vs Metal Sonic so y'all can't see the workings of Meowstic and Slurpuff

 

[RenzokukenL]

With the buffs to Infiltrator, what will become of Seviper, Lampent and Jumpluff?
What about Lickilicky and the Oblivious buff making it Tauntproof?

with that out of the way next come Fletchinder, I used a common Acrobatics + Flying Gem + Tailwind. Paired him with a Banded Sawk that really put the opponents in a dangerous zone. You may think that you can achieve the same with murkrow but Gale Wings give priority to ANY flying type moves, even attacking ones. So you don't need to care about your opponent speed as you can choose Acrobatics and stike first regarless (just need to be aware of other priorities moves, like zangoose quick attack and skuntank sucker punch). This is of course a niche set, but is a good niche anyway

Flying Gem is, unfortunately, illegal in Gen 6.
I miss AcroGem Mucha Hawlucha already ;-;

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Seviper will be outclassed by Golbat as a Poison-type Infiltrator user, Lampent I don't know, and Jumpluff will love it's new buffed ability, but will miss AcroGem a lot.

And taunt-proof Lickilicky will be interesting to say the least. Jynx, Piloswine, and a few others will stick to other abilities though.

 

[HispanicPanic]

Well, I don't quite agree on Golbat outclassing Seviper as an Infiltrator user, mostly because they serve two different roles. Golbat is usually going to stick to a defensive Eviolite set, so Infiltrator is going to help its Brave Birds get past subs if it isn't using Whirlwind to phaze. Considering Mandibuzz is probably leaving the tier, Golbat will probably plug up the hole left by Mandi considering its similar movepool and role.

Seviper on the other hand, is purely offensive and will love getting past subs because quite a few things in the tier are faster than it and can set up a sub pretty easily on poor Seviper. 100/100 offensive stats are pretty damn good in NU, so for once, Sevvy might actually see some use with Infiltrator. Once pokebank comes out, a mixed set with Sludge Bomb / HP Ground / Giga Drain / Sucker Punch would give it some decent neutral coverage and might actually make it useful. It's similar to Cacturne in terms of having good mixed offenses, but access to Infiltrator gives it a niche in NU.

 

[Lolk]

Frogadier was a fun scarfer throughout the tourney outspeeding Jynx by two points and STAB everything (especially U-turn. It was piss frail tho and could barely switch in on neutral attacks tho. Nevertheless it pulled its weight in all my matches.

 

[Adonzo]

Kangaskhanite banned from OU, so it looks likely that Kangaskhan will be rejoining NU.

 

[perplexingpool]

Just curious, will auto-weather be banned in NU again this gen? Because Hail seems to be pretty good, with a good inducer in Aurorus, and amazing abusers like Rotom-F, Walrein and Glaceon.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Hail wasn't banned in NU, it just got enough usage in RU to move up but was banned there. I don't think it will be much different this time around, but the meta has changed a lot: now we have a powerful Blizzard spammer in Jynx, Kangaskhan is gone, and Emboar is no longer there to check hail teams. Meanwhile, hail has received some nerfs, the most prominent one being Aurorus' worse typing compared to Snover, meaning it is much harder for it to keep alive and keep setting up hail. Stallrein will also be less prominent because of the 5 turn (or 8) hail only, which doesn't give it a lot of time to stall. I think hail is going to be viable but probably not strong enough to be banned, and it'll probably see the same effects as it did in BW, when Musharna usage virtually disappeared, Duosion and Rotom-F took over, etc. But for now, Snow Warning Aurorus is (apparently) unreleased according to minitour 18, so for now we have a weatherless metagame

 

[Adonzo]

Kangaskhan is gone

Again, Kangaskhanite has been banned. There is really no reason for Kangaskhan itself to tier any higher than NU this gen, as it gained nothing beyond Mega Evolution. And don't say Power-Up Punch, that move is garbage without Parental Bond.

 

[Evil Mandibuzz]

What about kecleon? It now gets access to protean and a good offensive move pool. It also has rocks for a defensive set and it has that monstrous sp def. Here are some calculations to prove my point. 252+ Atk Life Orb Protean Kecleon Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Exeggutor: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Life Orb Protean Kecleon Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 322-382 (118.3 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252+ Atk Life Orb Protean Kecleon Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ursaring: 346-408 (90.1 - 106.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 252+ Atk Life Orb Kecleon Return vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Vileplume: 164-192 (46.3 - 54.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. This thing could be the bane of hyper offense.

 

[Evil Mandibuzz]

Unfortunately its low speed lets it down but those are some impressive calculations. Its also a hardcore check for jynx.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Kecleon could be worth mentioning here, since it's the only other Protean user besides Frogadier, and Kecleon has a wider array of move types it can turn into. However, it's pretty slow if you aren't using a priority move. Also, like Frogadier, it can be seen as a pretty good Jynx counter/check.

It also could be an interesting wall with it's surprising Special Bulk and it's ability to actually get Recover when Pokebank is released (Granted, you have to chain breed in Gen 4/5, but it can be worth it).

 

[Evil Mandibuzz]

As for the defensive set: 252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kecleon: 85-102 (26.2 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO 4 Atk Life Orb Protean Kecleon Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 229-273 (84.1 - 100.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 252 SpA Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kecleon: 114-135 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock 252+ SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kecleon: 136-162 (41.9 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO (thats modest specs helioisk) 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kecleon: 90-106 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

[Evil Mandibuzz]

My set in ddt (which you should check out if you don't know what it is,it's nu with some changes) is recover, shadow sneak, stealth rocks, and return with the leftovers item.

 

[Evil Mandibuzz]

Catches a lot of people off guard.