I don't see how Kanga's too good for NU. It's a really good revenge killer, mostly against offensive teams, but for the most part it's stopped by things like Regirock, Alomomola, Tangela, and Gurdurr. None of them really have much trouble handling any of Kanga's sets. As for Stoutland hitting harder than Kanga, yes this is true, but the two of them serve entirely different roles. Kangaskhan is usually used as an offensive check and revenge killer because of Scrappy and its access to priority in Fake Out and Sucker Punch. Stoutland used to run a bulky attacker set with Intimidate, but now I can see it running a choice set with Scrappy seeing as it now has base 110 Attack. It can still run Return/ Crunch / Superpower as usual, but it did get a new toy this gen: Play Rough. Super Power and Crunch have good enough coverage together, but Play Rough could fit somewhere possibly in the fourth slot.
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XY NU Theorymon Discussion
- Thread starter DTC
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Honestly even without getting to +2 with one power-up punch kanghaskan can still use this set to sweep: scrappy leftovers Sucker punch, substitute, power-up punch, and return. Evs:252hp 236attack 20+sp def. The goal of the set is too sub on a toxic or sleep powder and power-up punch until you can sweep. The evs are defensive enough that defensive tangela has a 0% chance of breaking the subs in one hit with giga drain (excluding sp attack boosts and crits). With attack investment at +3 it is monstrously powerful and can kill those walls. Regirock is one of the few walls that can give this set problems but I usually have stuff for him anyways. The story is exactly the same with gurdurr, as I usually pack a specs pidgeot. Besides alomomola and tangela are more common these days than regirock and gurdurr.
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Don't you get it, the point of the set is to abuse walls. Power-up punch is there to get the attack boosts not ohko stuff or do much damage.
Kangaskhan certainly wasn't too good for NU last generation, what makes you think it will be this generation? NU gets more and more powerful every generation and Mega-less Kangaskhan certainly hasn't improved enough to push it over the edge in XY NU.
Also, Stoutland is also outclassed by Tauros in addition to Kanga, so unless Hippopotas becomes NU legal I highly doubt Stoutland will have much of a niche.
Kangaskhan is one of the best mons in the metagame, has strong priority and a powerful stab with awesome coverage options, great natural bulk, solid offensive typing and I could go on.
Mons don't need to directly improve to become better, if the metagame shifts favorably, anything can become better without actually improving itself. Though that's too early to predict for the individual pokémon.
I can definitely see Kanga being pushed over the edge in XY NU, but it depends on what else we get.
Mons don't need to directly improve to become better, if the metagame shifts favorably, anything can become better without actually improving itself. Though that's too early to predict for the individual pokémon.
I can definitely see Kanga being pushed over the edge in XY NU, but it depends on what else we get.
Evil Mandibuzz ..
Kangaskhan outclasses stoutland due to dual priority, higher speed, viability in double edge, better overall bulk. Kangaskhan stands out in NU as one of the premier revenge killers that don't need a choice scarf by utilizing Fake Out + Sucker Punch..Theres a reason it is the most used normal type in NU period.
Its going to RU/UU guaranteed next gen. The NU tier this gen formed around Khan's established uniqueness of dual priority.
Kangaskhan outclasses stoutland due to dual priority, higher speed, viability in double edge, better overall bulk. Kangaskhan stands out in NU as one of the premier revenge killers that don't need a choice scarf by utilizing Fake Out + Sucker Punch..Theres a reason it is the most used normal type in NU period.
Its going to RU/UU guaranteed next gen. The NU tier this gen formed around Khan's established uniqueness of dual priority.
Kangaskhan won't be UU unless it has some amazing buff we don't know about. It has some great things, but at the end of that day 95 base attack only gets you so far. There are many things that deal with it in NU, and in RU or UU there'd be even more. I don't see it even moving up to RU this generation, really.
A little birdie told me that Snover and Hippopotas would be allowed back in UU then tiered accordingly from there, so there's a chance.
So according to Serebii, Koffing gets Toxic Spikes through some mysterious as of yet unknown method. Since in this theorymon exercise Scolipede (and for whatever dumb reason Exploud and Granbull) are banned, Weezing is going to be a very good option to set up Toxic Spikes in NU. Of course, it gets it in the generation where Game Freak nerfed entry hazards the hardest by introducing Defog.
I think it could compete with Garbodor for the niche of "Poison-type Toxic Spikes setter" fairly well, given that it has the same recovery (either improved Rest or Pain Split), better status move to hit Flying-types and opposing levitators (Will-O-Wisp > Toxic), and has Levitate to at least mitigate one of its weaknesses. It still has to compete with Pokemon like Roselia, which got a buff from all of its egg moves finally being legal together, Ariados (Sticky Web + Megahorn), and new mons like Frogadier (Protean + Toxic Spikes + Spikes, though its frail even with Eviolite).
Here's an example set:
Weezing @ Black Sludge
Bold Nature
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA or w/e
-Sludge Bomb
-Will-O-Wisp
-Toxic Spikes
-Pain Split
It theoretically serves as a nice check to Physical Pokemon such as GRANBULL, improved Stoutland/Kangaskhan, and Fighting-types like Sawk or Primeape, since it is able to cripple them, heal a decent amount of HP, and set up Toxic Spikes for your team. Defog might get rid of them, but it doesn't get rid of the poison chip damage while they're still up!
I think it could compete with Garbodor for the niche of "Poison-type Toxic Spikes setter" fairly well, given that it has the same recovery (either improved Rest or Pain Split), better status move to hit Flying-types and opposing levitators (Will-O-Wisp > Toxic), and has Levitate to at least mitigate one of its weaknesses. It still has to compete with Pokemon like Roselia, which got a buff from all of its egg moves finally being legal together, Ariados (Sticky Web + Megahorn), and new mons like Frogadier (Protean + Toxic Spikes + Spikes, though its frail even with Eviolite).
Here's an example set:
Weezing @ Black Sludge
Bold Nature
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA or w/e
-Sludge Bomb
-Will-O-Wisp
-Toxic Spikes
-Pain Split
It theoretically serves as a nice check to Physical Pokemon such as GRANBULL, improved Stoutland/Kangaskhan, and Fighting-types like Sawk or Primeape, since it is able to cripple them, heal a decent amount of HP, and set up Toxic Spikes for your team. Defog might get rid of them, but it doesn't get rid of the poison chip damage while they're still up!
Koffing gets Toxic Spikes via chain breeding with Yamask from Trubbish iinm. I don't even know how the Ghost gets that.
Speaking of Ghosts, what do you think of Weakness Policy Drifblim? It has 5 weaknesses, Stockpile to soften the hit, 2 powerful STABs for NU, Unburden, and freaking Baton Pass to top it all off, passing +2 offenses and +1 defenses to some wicked fast sweeper to start tearing things apart. It's a huge pity it cannot pass Speed, and that its danger level is significantly diminished if WP isn't used (though it can still pass Stockpiles), but would it be something to look out for?
This seems very dangerous. If you do choose to pass this, what sort of pokemon do you want to pass it to? Something bulky, obviously, and preferably fast as well. Problem is, all of the fast Pokemon in NU are extremely frail. Regigigas seems like a decent option though; bulky as all hell at +1, and extremely powerful at +2, even despite Slow Start.
This is indeed a scary thing. As the above post by perplexingpool says, Regigigas is something that would love to receive that Baton Pass but sadly may be forced out through phasing. Also if you're running Regi as a Baton Pass receiver you can probably forego at least one of Thunder Wave and Confuse Ray on the standard sets, keeping the classic Return and Drain Punch. Maybe go for some nice Ghost coverage and utility in the form of Knock Off? Get more coverage with Stone Edge, Earthquake, elemental punches? Boost the lacklustre (until Slow Start is gone) Speed with Rock Polish? It's a shame this fellow doesn't get Taunt to stop itself being Roared out before its five turns of mild murder end and it decimates NU. Oh well.
It indeed would. The fact that Drifblim is not used often would probably not freak out too many people. But since PokeBank is out I'll try to experiment and see its effectiveness on a synergizing team. But if Drifblim could take a hit, it would be game over most likely due to Drifblim's pretty nice coverage. But Stockpile would be a slight waste of health since it would be slightly pointless if outsped. However imagine Roost CM With WP and 2 STAB Moves. GG Friend.
EDIT: I have tested The WeakBlim and my tests are successful. I have racked a sweep with CM, SB, And TB, The tests were successful and it is plausable to replace the hypnosis I have used with Stockpile to soften Incoming super effective attacks.
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Yeah out of all the BP recipients you could pass to, I wouldn't choose something that's handicapped for 5 turns. There's way more threatening stuff to pass to, like Ludicolo or Tauros. LO Sheer Force Tauros at +2 Atk and +1 Defenses? Yeah I'll take it.
Nobody has talked about Defog yet... Which is surprising considering NU has the reputation of having the worst spinners in any tier.
Anywho, there are a few viable Defog users this gen and some of them were already good Pokemon in their own right! :o
Here are the (likely) XY NU Defog users this gen including viable NFEs and fully evolved Pokemon:
So as can be seen, most of them suck, lol. However, there a few that stand out: Golbat, Shiftry, and Skuntank.
Golbat is probably the best defensive Defog user this gen given its fantastic bulk with Eviolite and reliable recovery in Roost. While it is weak to Stealth Rock, I can see it functioning as the perfect defensive defog user, similar to how Mandibuzz works in OU! With moves like Taunt, Brave Bird, U-turn, and Defog at its disposal, it can possibly function as a very well equipped anti-hazard mon!
Here's a possible set:
Golbat @ Eviolite
Trait: Infiltrator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature (+Def -SpA)
-Taunt
-Defog
-Roost
-Brave Bird
The other two Defog users are a bit more offensive than Golbat, but their addition to hyper offense and bulky offense is a god send, as now there are ways to get rid of entry hazards without having to rely on subpar Pokemon or aggressive counter-strategies.
Shiftry @ Life Orb
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature (+Spe -SpA / +Atk -Spa)
-Defog
-Sucker Punch / Knock Off
-Seed Bomb / Bullet Seed
-Low Kick / Rock Slide
Shiftry gained three notable things this gen: a buffed Dark typing, a buffed Knock off, and a great utility move in Defog. Given Shiftry's fantastic matchup against a few common Stealth Rock setters (Golem, Golurk, etc) it can find more than enough opportunities to use its offensive presence to force a switch and find the time to use Defog. The first three moves are fairly self-explanatory, but the last two could use a bit of scrutinization. Basically, Low Kick brings down Probopass and Bastiodon, both of which can tank Shiftry's moves at reasonable health. Rock Slide, however, can threaten Briviary considering it would want to switch into Shiftry's Defog and gain a +2 attack boost with its Defiant ability.
I suppose Shiftry can try a specially based offensive Defog set. Something like this could work:
Shiftry @ Life Orb
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature (+Spe -Atk / +SpA - Atk)
-Defog
-Giga Drain
-Dark Pulse
-Focus Blast / Icy Wind
The perks with this set is that it has Giga Drain so it can last a bit longer than it normally would. Other than that, the physical set is probably superior due to taking advantage of Shiftry's higher attacking stat, as well as being able to utilize priority in Sucker Punch or a neat STAB Knock Off.
Skuntank @ Dread Plate / Leftovers
Trait: Aftermath
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
-Defog
-Sucker Punch
-Pursuit
-Poison Jab / Taunt
Basically, this is very similar to the current standard Skuntank set, except that it has Defog (for who knows what reason...) to clear away entry hazards. Basically, Dark-type STABs are phenomenal this gen, so much so that Skuntank can probably afford to run just its mono-STAB alone. Poison Jab does have its uses, however, in that it dents Primeape pretty hard. I'm not sure if Defog will be a main option in Skuntank's standard set next gen, but it's definitely a cool move to look into.
As for counter-strategies, there are two direct ones: Competitive / Defiant users and Taunt users. I expect to see more of the latter and less of the former because of the fact that that there aren't many good Taunt users in NU and the few that are use Defog anyway, lol.
These guys seem like pretty decent anti-hazard meassures. Wigglytuff doesn't seem half bad this gen with its new Fairy typing and great movepool; with a +2 boost from Defog, it can possibly be threatening (*gasp*). J/k. Wigglytuff probably won't be making a splash in the NU metagame anytime soon; however, the other two are the ones to watch out for.
Primeape is looking especially scary with a +2 boost. Imagine a Choice Scarf Primeape switching into your Defog Skutank and gaining a +2 attack boost or Briviary switching in on Defog Golbat and gaining a free Swords Dance boost of its own. Neither of those sound like very pleasant things to face! Outside of getting a Defog off and being useful, the other important objective of the Defog users of this generation is to find ways to counter-act Defiant Pokemon, which all of the above can do well by adjusting their movesets. Overall, I find that Briviary is probably the better Defiant user do to its better bulk allowing it switch in a bit easier; although, Primeape still seems like a good contender even though it requires bit more precision to use.
To conclude, I find that Defog will bring an interesting, new dynamic in the NU metagame. No longer will teams have to be reliant on the likes of Wartortle to remove hazards nor will moves such as Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes be as annoying as before.
P.S. I suppose Lumineon finally has a niche now lol. It's the only Defog user that has U-turn that isn't weak to Stealth Rock.Lumineon; new meta.
Anywho, there are a few viable Defog users this gen and some of them were already good Pokemon in their own right! :o
Here are the (likely) XY NU Defog users this gen including viable NFEs and fully evolved Pokemon:
Golbat is probably the best defensive Defog user this gen given its fantastic bulk with Eviolite and reliable recovery in Roost. While it is weak to Stealth Rock, I can see it functioning as the perfect defensive defog user, similar to how Mandibuzz works in OU! With moves like Taunt, Brave Bird, U-turn, and Defog at its disposal, it can possibly function as a very well equipped anti-hazard mon!
Here's a possible set:
Golbat @ Eviolite
Trait: Infiltrator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature (+Def -SpA)
-Taunt
-Defog
-Roost
-Brave Bird
The other two Defog users are a bit more offensive than Golbat, but their addition to hyper offense and bulky offense is a god send, as now there are ways to get rid of entry hazards without having to rely on subpar Pokemon or aggressive counter-strategies.
Shiftry @ Life Orb
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature (+Spe -SpA / +Atk -Spa)
-Defog
-Sucker Punch / Knock Off
-Seed Bomb / Bullet Seed
-Low Kick / Rock Slide
Shiftry gained three notable things this gen: a buffed Dark typing, a buffed Knock off, and a great utility move in Defog. Given Shiftry's fantastic matchup against a few common Stealth Rock setters (Golem, Golurk, etc) it can find more than enough opportunities to use its offensive presence to force a switch and find the time to use Defog. The first three moves are fairly self-explanatory, but the last two could use a bit of scrutinization. Basically, Low Kick brings down Probopass and Bastiodon, both of which can tank Shiftry's moves at reasonable health. Rock Slide, however, can threaten Briviary considering it would want to switch into Shiftry's Defog and gain a +2 attack boost with its Defiant ability.
I suppose Shiftry can try a specially based offensive Defog set. Something like this could work:
Shiftry @ Life Orb
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature (+Spe -Atk / +SpA - Atk)
-Defog
-Giga Drain
-Dark Pulse
-Focus Blast / Icy Wind
The perks with this set is that it has Giga Drain so it can last a bit longer than it normally would. Other than that, the physical set is probably superior due to taking advantage of Shiftry's higher attacking stat, as well as being able to utilize priority in Sucker Punch or a neat STAB Knock Off.
Skuntank @ Dread Plate / Leftovers
Trait: Aftermath
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
-Defog
-Sucker Punch
-Pursuit
-Poison Jab / Taunt
Basically, this is very similar to the current standard Skuntank set, except that it has Defog (for who knows what reason...) to clear away entry hazards. Basically, Dark-type STABs are phenomenal this gen, so much so that Skuntank can probably afford to run just its mono-STAB alone. Poison Jab does have its uses, however, in that it dents Primeape pretty hard. I'm not sure if Defog will be a main option in Skuntank's standard set next gen, but it's definitely a cool move to look into.
As for counter-strategies, there are two direct ones: Competitive / Defiant users and Taunt users. I expect to see more of the latter and less of the former because of the fact that that there aren't many good Taunt users in NU and the few that are use Defog anyway, lol.
Primeape is looking especially scary with a +2 boost. Imagine a Choice Scarf Primeape switching into your Defog Skutank and gaining a +2 attack boost or Briviary switching in on Defog Golbat and gaining a free Swords Dance boost of its own. Neither of those sound like very pleasant things to face! Outside of getting a Defog off and being useful, the other important objective of the Defog users of this generation is to find ways to counter-act Defiant Pokemon, which all of the above can do well by adjusting their movesets. Overall, I find that Briviary is probably the better Defiant user do to its better bulk allowing it switch in a bit easier; although, Primeape still seems like a good contender even though it requires bit more precision to use.
To conclude, I find that Defog will bring an interesting, new dynamic in the NU metagame. No longer will teams have to be reliant on the likes of Wartortle to remove hazards nor will moves such as Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes be as annoying as before.
P.S. I suppose Lumineon finally has a niche now lol. It's the only Defog user that has U-turn that isn't weak to Stealth Rock.
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Would just like to note that Delibird now occupies a very important niche as the only Pokemon to have access to both Rapid Spin and Defog. How will NU deal with this brutal hazard removing monster?
Noctowl is probably a half-decent defogger too as it has astounding bulk if it comes to taking special attacks, it can stick around.
It needs to make room though since it has a slight 4MSS, but it has only 5 moves it wants to pick, 6 if you count Psycho Shift.
Defog + Toxic + Roost + Whirlwind + Air Slash
Noctowl's main problem is that it can't do much besides phazing things out which is why Lickilicky and friends have always been better walls ^^ .
Golbat is probably better but Noctowl looks like an option if you already have one or two Poison-types on your team that aren't named Skuntank (Skuntank and Golbat do not share a weakness, provided Golbat does not Roost into a slower Earthquake).
It needs to make room though since it has a slight 4MSS, but it has only 5 moves it wants to pick, 6 if you count Psycho Shift.
Defog + Toxic + Roost + Whirlwind + Air Slash
Noctowl's main problem is that it can't do much besides phazing things out which is why Lickilicky and friends have always been better walls ^^ .
Golbat is probably better but Noctowl looks like an option if you already have one or two Poison-types on your team that aren't named Skuntank (Skuntank and Golbat do not share a weakness, provided Golbat does not Roost into a slower Earthquake).
252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Noctowl: 200-236 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Noctowl: 282-332 (69.8 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's actually pretty impressive. I don't know if Noctowl would ever run full investment in SpD though, because he really needs to patch up his flimsy defense. Still, Jynx can't nab a one hit KO on him with a super effective STAB regardless of whether he invests in Def or SpD, so long as he has investment in HP (and who wouldn't run a Noctowl with full HP investment?).
What really hurts Nocty, though, is the lack of Calm Mind. Ever time a new gen comes out I keep hoping for GF to throw him a bone but they never do. Calm Mind + Tinted Lens is a pretty great combo.
Noctowl has to run a lot of SpDef investment because patching up its physical defence means you could just as well pick Golbat. Also, you want to survive the attack from LO Jynx after SR as well, so you pretty much need maximum SDef investment to do so.
The lack of Calm Mind hurts Noctowl, but Noctowl couldn't do much with CM anyway even if it had it since its CM set would be outclassed left and right, whatever it is SubBU Braviary or a CM sweeper with better coverage and/or speed.
What really hurts Noctowl is that its defensive stats are just slightly too low, it really wants to live more hits from various threats left and right.
The lack of Calm Mind hurts Noctowl, but Noctowl couldn't do much with CM anyway even if it had it since its CM set would be outclassed left and right, whatever it is SubBU Braviary or a CM sweeper with better coverage and/or speed.
What really hurts Noctowl is that its defensive stats are just slightly too low, it really wants to live more hits from various threats left and right.
While it is frail, doesn't have the best speed, and has craptastic physical defense. It actually could function as a Golbat without Eviolite and be a SpDefensive wall. Again due to the Defog buff it could increase the usage slightly since a lot of special attackers retain in NU. Like I said it could be an evioliteless Golbat with solid Special Defense. Possibly a good Special Defensive noctowl set would be this..
Noctowl (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Insomnia
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Night Shade
- Hypnosis/Whirlwind
- Roost
- Defog
This set is a solid special defensive way to throw out all the hazards due to Defog. Air Slash is not used here due to Noctowl's mediocre Special Attack and plus we need that last EV for defense. Which is why Night Shade is there, to deal proper damage. Hypnosis is a great way to allow your other NU pokemon to set up and it gives you time to remove the hazards. If you don't know what Hypnosis does, it puts pokemon to sleep. So you have a couple turns to use your utility for removing hazards, switching and setting up a sweep, and of course you can use Noctowl to absorb sleeping ailments thrown at a different pokemon. Of course Whirlwind is an alternative to stop a sweep that is being thrown at a halt. But I prefer Hypnosis for that useful sleeping affect. Roost is of course self-explainitory. So, I recommend you give it a go!
I'll be honest though, Articuno is a lot better for this.
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Articuno is much more solid but the inability to switch into rocks hurts a lot. At 50% what do you do? Roost or Defog? And if you run Roost Shell Smash Carracosta has a field day with your defogger, resisting both commonly run STABs. If you run Whirlwind you lose coverage or recovery. Articuno has bad 4MSS. For spikes, defoggers in general (being flying types mostly) are wonderful. But if rocks are up you're stuck between them and a hard place. Especially with Articuno.
By the way, our favourite Christmasbird got a new gift this generation: Spikes. The best spinner/defogger just got hazards to set too. Move over Forretress.
I would have agreed if Articuno wasn't 4× weak to Rocks.While it is frail, doesn't have the best speed, and has craptastic physical defense. It actually could function as a Golbat without Eviolite and be a SpDefensive wall. Again due to the Defog buff it could increase the usage slightly since a lot of special attackers retain in NU. Like I said it could be an evioliteless Golbat with solid Special Defense. Possibly a good Special Defensive noctowl set would be this..
Noctowl (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Insomnia
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Night Shade
- Hypnosis/Whirlwind
- Roost
- Defog
This set is a solid special defensive way to throw out all the hazards due to Defog. Air Slash is not used here due to Noctowl's mediocre Special Attack and plus we need that last EV for defense. Which is why Night Shade is there, to deal proper damage. Hypnosis is a great way to allow your other NU pokemon to set up and it gives you time to remove the hazards. If you don't know what Hypnosis does, it puts pokemon to sleep. So you have a couple turns to use your utility for removing hazards, switching and setting up a sweep, and of course you can use Noctowl to absorb sleeping ailments thrown at a different pokemon. Of course Whirlwind is an alternative to stop a sweep that is being thrown at a halt. But I prefer Hypnosis for that useful sleeping affect. Roost is of course self-explainitory. So, I recommend you give it a go!
I'll be honest though, Articuno is a lot better for this.
Besides, Noctowl does have enough physical bulk to tank some weaker hits or even Psyshock due to that high HP stat. Just don't expect it to tank powerful STAB attacks or SE attacks because well, it doesn't.
Also, Whirlwind is better than Hypnosis even if only because Hypnosis misses half the time. You also want Toxic in that slot so there's that.
Edit: However, I meant also that Noctowl also wants to tank some special moves it cannot, most notably a +2 Gorebyss Ice Beam after SR but Gardevoir's Thunderbolt as well (even though that only 2HKO's, it means Noctowl cannot switch into Gardevoir safely).
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Entry hazards were manageable in the BW meta and hardly anyone bothered to go out of the way to use Wartortle / Torkoal to clear them. Similarly, I don't think Noctowl will suddenly boom in usage just because of Defog; if I really needed a Defogger, I'd use Golbat / Murkrow / Skuntank since they're all rather useful outside of Defog. Unless Sticky Web becomes a huge thing, I don't think we'll see the need for any Defogger especially with Scolipede leaving, and it's pretty unlikely that Noctowl is suddenly going to be awesome because Defog got buffed.
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