XY NU Theorymon Discussion

[Hidious]

Would just like to note that Delibird now occupies a very important niche as the only Pokemon to have access to both Rapid Spin and Defog. How will NU deal with this brutal hazard removing monster?

Please Gamefreak give it magic bounce and magic coat and delibird becomes a hazard prevention machine!

Delibird @ Focus Sash

Magic Bounce

252 HP / 252 SpE / 4 def

Rapid Spin
Defog
Magic Coat
Spikes / Destiny Bond

No hazards are setting up on Delibird!

 

[Adonzo]

Nah, what you need there is Rapid Spin / Defog / Magic Coat / Taunt

 

[Mistrals]

okay, maybe this is just being completely stupid, but how do you get most of these pokemon that learned Defog in gen 4 by HM, the ones that don't learn it by an egg move or by level up or whatever, over to gen 6 when you can't trade pokemon over knowing HM moves?

 

[perplexingpool]

okay, maybe this is just being completely stupid, but how do you get most of these pokemon that learned Defog in gen 4 by HM, the ones that don't learn it by an egg move or by level up or whatever, over to gen 6 when you can't trade pokemon over knowing HM moves?

You can transfer Pokemon that know Defog up from HGSS because it isn't a HM in that game.

 

[tennisace]

Speaking of cool things that can use Defog: how about Braviary? It's reasonably bulky, can pivot with U-turn, and doesn't really need any coverage besides Brave Bird. Oh and it gets Defiant so it can switch in on opposing Defog and grab a free +2 Attack!

Brave Bird / U-turn / Defog / Roost @ Leftovers allows it to be a mini-Mandibuzz of sorts, or go offensive with something like Brave Bird / Superpower / U-turn / Roost @ Life Orb.

 

[Punchshroom]

Pelipper easily has the typing for the task. Scald / Roost / Defog would be solid staples on it, then either one of Toxic, U-turn, or of course the improved Knock Off for the final slot.

 

[Franklyna]

Pelipper easily has the typing for the task. Scald / Roost / Defog would be solid staples on it, then either one of Toxic, U-turn, or of course the improved Knock Off for the final slot.

Pelipper has a nice typing, but I think the x4 weakness to Electric moves kills his usefulness somewhat. Electric moves were pretty common in 5th gen NU, with common Pokemon like Lapras, Zebstrika, Eelektross, and Electabuzz regularly packing. Though we have no idea if that'll carry over into 6th gen NU yet, Electric types received a nice buff with their paralysis immunity, so I could actually see the type becoming more common now.

 

[skies]

Skuntank @ Black Sludge
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Defog
- Sucker Punch
- Pursuit
- Poison Jab

It has a great typing, a neutrality to SR, and an immunity to TS. Defog is legal with Aftermath, no confliction there. IDK, I really like this set.

 

[Blast]

The best Defog Skunk would probably be a specially defensive set with Defog / Taunt / Foul Play / Roar|Toxic @ Black Sludge. Throwing Defog on standard offensive Skuntank isn't the best idea because it makes it a much less effective Pursuit trapper, as it really needs all its moves to secure a successful trap on the opponent. SpD Skunk can utilize Defog much better since it's a lot bulkier and doesn't have as much 4MSS as offensive variants.

 

[CanadianWifier]

Man oh man, I had no idea such a thread existed.. time to get caught up

I personally can't wait to try out SubCM Meowstic-M, had my eye on that since week 1; though skuntank getting a buff with defog (and dark's buff in general) might give it a hard time :[
Only other thing I'll add for now is that Pyroar might end up being a decent user of specs, as it's pretty fast for nu and has really decent stab options to spam.

 

[LATIOS_]

I know we're currently talking about Skuntank, but I'd like to revive our hilarious discussion about the Santa of Pokemon. As someone already said, Delibird has been blessed with Spikes. Allowing it to be the Frail Skarmory/Forretress of NU. Not to mention it has Defog as we already know. However Defog removes ALL hazards. Including your own. So Spikes wouldn't be the smartest or viable option for it. However you can invest Max Def and Max Hp to enable it to set up 3 layers AFTER a defog is launched. Also thanks to the nifty evasion decrease it can enable shaky attacks like Blizzard or Air Slash (If Delibird can learn that...) to hit more effectively.

 

[Martingale]

I know we're currently talking about Skuntank, but I'd like to revive our hilarious discussion about the Santa of Pokemon. As someone already said, Delibird has been blessed with Spikes. Allowing it to be the Frail Skarmory/Forretress of NU. Not to mention it has Defog as we already know. However Defog removes ALL hazards. Including your own. So Spikes wouldn't be the smartest or viable option for it. However you can invest Max Def and Max Hp to enable it to set up 3 layers AFTER a defog is launched. Also thanks to the nifty evasion decrease it can enable shaky attacks like Blizzard or Air Slash (If Delibird can learn that...) to hit more effectively.

Hold on... Delibird gets Hustle. Decreases accuracy for Attack boosts. Hm...

Delibird @ Expert Belt
Ability: Hustle
Adamant Nature, 252Atk/252Spe/4HP
-Ice Punch
-Aerial Ace
-Power-Up Punch
-Defog/Seed Bomb/Gunk Shot/Ice Shard

This is not a (complete and utter) joke. Uh... This thing is kind of powerful, 2HKOing max defense Tangrowth who... 2HKOs in return with Hidden Power Fire. Okay bad example. Um... It can 1HKO Sawk with Aerial Ace (which never misses!), but must watch out for attacking variants of Sawk who could 1HKO it with basically any move they possess. 252 Speed EVs mean you can outrun up to uninvested Base 95's, and actually dent stuff pretty badly. Power-Up Punch means you can boost your miniscule attack to reasonable levels. At +1, dare I say this Delibird is remotely threatening? If you feel like you're going to miss things, and Spikes are on the field, Defog is there for you in the last slash, as is some coverage and Priority. I'd run Ice Shard personally to uh... Best Swellow? Sure we'll go with that.

However you could run this too...

Delibird @ Snowball
Ability: Insomnia
Jolly Nature, 252Spe/252HP/4Atk
-Present
-Fling
-Recycle
-Avalanche

Christmas Game too strong. Snowball and Fling makes your opponent want to throw the game and have a snowball fight instead-- and you have Recycle, giving you up to 16 Snowballs to throw! Avalanche covers the battlefield in snow, and Present is essential to spread joy. Jolly Nature makes you a better Santa Bird and Insomnia ensures you can stay up all night delivering gifts.

 

[Mistrals]

Delibird can be threatening. I OHKOed a Yveltal with a choice banded hustle ice punch in Ubers.
xD

 

[atomicllamas]

Delibird has and will always suck, it is slow, frail, and even with hustle pretty weak. Ice / flying is a shit typing for a defogger, why should this discussion be focused on a Pokemon that will always be irrelevant. Pelipper and skuntank should be good defoggers though.

 

[Brawlfest]

Mantine could be an especially good defogger if it didn't have 4MSS :[

 

[Sidfrid]

Insteed of looking for Defog bird, what about no-rock-weakness defoggers, like:

Sid !learn skuntank, defog
TIBot Skuntank can learn Defog, only when obtained from: Gen 4

Since he is almost used as a pursuit trapper, he can run something like this:

Skuntank - Leftovers (or Lum if we manage to keep Jynx)
- Defog
- Pursuit
- Poison Jab (since Fairy would be a huge problem in lower tiers)
- Sucker Punch

Depending on the Fairies we get, Skunktank might need to run some speed EV's but will remain as a bulky pivot.

 

[Franklyna]

Delibird has and will always suck, it is slow, frail, and even with hustle pretty weak. Ice / flying is a shit typing for a defogger, why should this discussion be focused on a Pokemon that will always be irrelevant. Pelipper and skuntank should be good defoggers though.

Watch Delibird get an evo or Mega Evo next Gen. Some day, GF. Some day. /shakefist

I don't think anyone's mentioned Swanna as a potentially good Defogger yet. Unlike a lot of the defoggers mentioned thus far, who are primarily support-oriented, Swanna is an offensive threat with a solid defensive typing.

 

[Brawlfest]

Watch Delibird get an evo or Mega Evo next Gen. Some day, GF. Some day. /shakefist

I don't think anyone's mentioned Swanna as a potentially good Defogger yet. Unlike a lot of the defoggers mentioned thus far, who are primarily support-oriented, Swanna is an offensive threat with a solid defensive typing.

The problem is that Swanna is infinitely outclassed by Pelipper as a Water / Flying defogger. With access to better defenses, U-Turn to gain momentum, Pelipper can simply find space to fit it in. Swanna on the other hand suffers from 4MSS, giving up one of it's 4 important moves of it's Rain Dance Offensive set. I guess you could run Defog over Rain Dance with Roost, but again, Hurricane becomes inaccurate, which you can't risk on such a offensive kingpin.

TL;DR: No reason to use it as a defogger over Pelipper, who has similar offensive presence but much better defensive / support capabilities thus not suffering 4MSS.

 

[Franklyna]

The problem is that Swanna is infinitely outclassed by Pelipper as a Water / Flying defogger. With access to better defenses, U-Turn to gain momentum, Pelipper can simply find space to fit it in. Swanna on the other hand suffers from 4MSS, giving up one of it's 4 important moves of it's Rain Dance Offensive set. I guess you could run Defog over Rain Dance with Roost, but again, Hurricane becomes inaccurate, which you can't risk on such a offensive kingpin.

TL;DR: No reason to use it as a defogger over Pelipper, who has similar offensive presence but much better defensive / support capabilities thus not suffering 4MSS.

While that is true, Swanna is significantly faster than Pelipper (and much of the NU tier, too), which is a real asset for a supporter. I think Swanna's actually the third fastest user of Defog in the NU tier, behind only Pidgeot (who probably won't see much use even with the new Speed increase) and Swellow (who has much better moves to run than Defog).

 

[Martingale]

A very interesting and fun set I've come across is Victreebelch and it can work well with clever play.

Victreebel @ Salac Berry
Ability: Gluttony
Hasty Nature, 16 Atk/240 SAtk/252 Spe
-Belch
-Energy Ball / Giga Drain
-Sucker Punch / Knock Off / Sleep Powder
-Growth / Sleep Powder / Weather Ball / Protect

Victreebelch evolved from Sweepinbell. The main problem I see with Victreebel is: when the hell do you switch it in? My personal favourite switch-in is on Sawk's Close Combat, as even Adamant Banded can't break it in one shot if hazards aren't up and always get it to Salac level unless the Sawk has less than 252 Attack investment (lol who would). Predicted Powder attacks are also a good choice. I refuse to use Leaf Storm on the set because it makes Belch a worthless move and you may as well use Sludge Bomb then. Energy Ball's buff gives it reasonable damage output and Giga Drain supports longevity (if Victreebel has any). Sucker Punch and 16 Atk investment 1HKOs 4/0 Jynx who is a bane to this and any Grass-type you care to use. Knock Off has more power but the priority is useful. Finally, the last slot is entirely your choice: Boost with Growth to get Victreebel's impressive 105/100 offenses even higher turning a lot of 2HKOs into 1HKOs, shut down some things with Sleep Powder (also slashed on the Physical dark moves: Timid with 252 SpA if you use it there). Protect eases prediction once your Victreebel is in but may be a silly choice. Weather Ball helps if you're on a Sun Team but really: why not use Chlorophyll Vicctreebel?

Edit: I derped, Victreebel doesn't 4x resist fighting (thanks Punchshroom). I was convinced it did having used bulky Vileplume for so long. :P

 

[Punchshroom]

A very interesting and fun set I've come across is Victreebelch and it can work well with clever play.

Victreebel @ Salac Berry
Ability: Gluttony
Hasty Nature, 16 Atk/240 SAtk/252 Spe
-Belch
-Energy Ball / Giga Drain
-Sucker Punch / Knock Off / Sleep Powder
-Growth / Sleep Powder / Weather Ball / Protect

Victreebelch evolved from Sweepinbell. The main problem I see with Victreebel is: when the hell do you switch it in? My personal favourite switch-in is on Sawk's Close Combat, as even Adamant Banded can't break it in one shot if hazards aren't up (this is less impressive when you consider Victreebel is supposed to 4x resist fighting, it's damn frail) and always get it to Salac level unless the Sawk has less than 252 Attack investment (lol who would). Predicted Powder attacks are also a good choice. I refuse to use Leaf Storm on the set because it makes Belch a worthless move and you may as well use Sludge Bomb then. Energy Ball's buff gives it reasonable damage output and Giga Drain supports longevity (if Victreebel has any). Sucker Punch and 16 Atk investment 1HKOs 4/0 Jynx who is a bane to this and any Grass-type you care to use. Knock Off has more power but the priority is useful. Finally, the last slot is entirely your choice: Boost with Growth to get Victreebel's impressive 105/100 offenses even higher, shut down some things with Sleep Powder (also slashed on the Physical dark moves: Timid with 252 SpA if you use it there). Protect eases prediction once your Victreebel is in but may be a silly choice. Weather Ball helps if you're on a Sun Team but really: why not use Chlorophyll Vicctreebel?

Victreebel only 2x resists Fighting, which explains the huge damage from CB Adamant Sawk's CB. Victreebel does have issues switching in: pretty much the best (only) opportunities are Alomomola or Grass moves.

Victreebel is certainly one of the better Belch users, though personally I still wouldn't bother with it since it means you miss out on Life Orb which powers up Victreebel's other moves (though LO Sludge Bomb is still slightly weaker than unboosted Belch). The Salac boost also wears off if Victreebel's switches unlike that of Chlorophyll Victreebel's, which permits you to use stronger attacks such as Solarbeam and Weather Ball.

Really, Victreebel seems to be an even bigger threat in this Gen due to resolving its move issues. Now its sun sweeping sets have moves like Power Whip (smashes specially bulky dudes like Mantine and Grumpig), Encore (for free Growths), and Sucker Punch at its disposal, making it that much harder to check. I can't wait to see how well Victreebel would perform.

 

[HispanicPanic]

I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but since Togetic was changed to a Fairy/Flying type it now seems like a decent physical wall after it boosts its bulk with Eviolite. Granted, Togetic only has base 55 HP and base 85 Defense, but this is pretty usable after Eviolite, and considering its typing resists Fighting, Bug, Dark, and Dragon-moves, it seems to be a more effective Physical wall and cleric despite its higher Special Defense. Togetic's best spread would probably look like 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpAtk with Dazzling Gleam / Heal Bell / Roost / and Toxic. It can easily switch in to most Fighting-types even if they're packing coverage against flying types. Choice Scarf Primeape with Stone Edge is not even a guaranteed 3HKO before rocks and after rocks its only a 3% chance to 2HKO after which Togetic can recover with Roost. Adamant Gurdurr is effectively walled by Togetic as it can't 2HKO even after rocks with Ice Punch unless Guts is activated. Togetic can then 2HKO both Primeape and Gurdurr with STAB Dazzling Gleam. The only Fighting-type that Togetic doesn't do well against is banded Sawk, which can always 2HKO Togetic with Stone Edge. Access to Roost and Heal Bell give Togetic some decent staying power and allow it support its team pretty well. While it might seem like Togetic is outclassed as a Fighting-type resist and cleric by Musharna what sets them apart is that Togetic is not Pursuit weak, so fares better against Skuntank, but it really must watch out for Poison Jab after rocks as that is a guaranteed 2HKO against Togetic if it predicts the switch. For the most part, Togetic is still a a somewhat outclassed mon, but it has usable niche in being the only Fairy/Flying type in NU.

 

[Blast]

Okay so I think it's about time we started discussing the Ghost- and Dark-types of the tier.

As we all know, Ghosts and Darks got a huge buff this gen thanks to their STABs now hitting Steel neutrally. This is a huge setback for Pokémon such as Metang, whose once-positive matchup against these types has literally become straight-up negative! Ghosts and Darks also happen to have particularly excellent type synergy with each other and very similar offensive coverage, which when combined allows them to cover their weaknesses quite nicely and weaken their counters. Especially with the departure of Mandibuzz from the tier, Ghost- and Dark-types have more potential than ever before, and I can definitely foresee quite a few of these guys becoming some of the most powerful threats in the meta.

An example core could look like this:

Haunter @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond

Shiftry @ Life Orb
Trait: Early Bird
EVs: 80 Atk / 252 SAtk / 176 Spd
Mild Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off
- Low Kick

As you can see this is an extremely offensive core, but at the same time is quite versatile when it comes to dealing with the many team archetypes out there. Both Haunter and Shiftry can utilize their powerful STAB options to nuke shit, while Haunter can lure in things that can trouble this core (such as Lickilicky / Audino and Skuntank) with Taunt and Destiny Bond, respectively. Meanwhile, Shiftry can pick off weakened / faster things with STAB Sucker Punch, annoy stuff with Knock Off, and just generally use its great mixed attacking stats to fuck up defensive cores. Another neat perk is that both these Pokémon also have some really unique resistances and immunities that they can use to find switch-in opportunities, despite their lack of bulk.

 

[Brawlfest]

Dat Blast is completely right in the buff that Ghosts and Darks got in the new tier. I would like to add a core of my own. Blast has posted a rather offensive core, so I will patch on a defensive core!

Misdreavus @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 220 Def / 40 Spd
Bold Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Taunt

Zweilous @ Eviolite
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 248 HP / 196 SDef / 64 Spd
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Dragon Tail / Crunch
- Roar

_______________________________________
This core exemplifies an amazing defensive core. Obviously to function, the core needs hazards support. That being said, Missy can check and burn the majority of physical pokemon, while Zweilous can check and phaze out special sweepers. Their sheer bulk is further pushed by their ability to heal themselves in Pain Split and Rest, which allow them to continuosly stall an opponent. Zweilous can take the majority of Ghost and Dark moves (which are primarily special), aimed at Missy, while Misdreavus can absorb Bug and Fighting moves (majority physical), aimed at Zweilous. This core especially works well with hazards support, as Misdreavus can Spinblock hazards that Zweilous appreciates, while Zweilous can phaze and abuse said hazards. Overall, this core is extremely hard to break through, and it one of the best defensive cores in the tier imo!

 

[Franklyna]

I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but since Togetic was changed to a Fairy/Flying type it now seems like a decent physical wall after it boosts its bulk with Eviolite. Granted, Togetic only has base 55 HP and base 85 Defense, but this is pretty usable after Eviolite, and considering its typing resists Fighting, Bug, Dark, and Dragon-moves, it seems to be a more effective Physical wall and cleric despite its higher Special Defense. Togetic's best spread would probably look like 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpAtk with Dazzling Gleam / Heal Bell / Roost / and Toxic. It can easily switch in to most Fighting-types even if they're packing coverage against flying types. Choice Scarf Primeape with Stone Edge is not even a guaranteed 3HKO before rocks and after rocks its only a 3% chance to 2HKO after which Togetic can recover with Roost. Adamant Gurdurr is effectively walled by Togetic as it can't 2HKO even after rocks with Ice Punch unless Guts is activated. Togetic can then 2HKO both Primeape and Gurdurr with STAB Dazzling Gleam. The only Fighting-type that Togetic doesn't do well against is banded Sawk, which can always 2HKO Togetic with Stone Edge. Access to Roost and Heal Bell give Togetic some decent staying power and allow it support its team pretty well. While it might seem like Togetic is outclassed as a Fighting-type resist and cleric by Musharna what sets them apart is that Togetic is not Pursuit weak, so fares better against Skuntank, but it really must watch out for Poison Jab after rocks as that is a guaranteed 2HKO against Togetic if it predicts the switch. For the most part, Togetic is still a a somewhat outclassed mon, but it has usable niche in being the only Fairy/Flying type in NU.

Those are pretty impressive calcs. The quadruple Fighting resist and effective use of Eviolite is a real asset for Togetic, and I honestly don't think Togetic is outclassed by Musharna at all because of Togetic's typing, arguably better movepool, and Nasty Plot to patch up it's average Special Attack.