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XY OU Analysis Reservation Index - READ CAREFULLY (MAKING A NEW THREAD)

I just reserved it yesterday (waiting for QC to approve)

The idea is that Darmanitan is able to revenge opposing threats such as Charizard X while still doing a ton of damage otherwise with Flare Blitz, so it can act as a late game sweeper too, especially since scarfers like Latios aren't common anymore, it also isn't too frail, and can take an Extreme Speed from Dragonite or (non CB) Brave Bird from Talonflame if it has to and has the coverage to immediately take them out after. A lot of other Pokemon can do this too, but none are as strong as Darmanitan unboosted which is why it's hard to play around.
 
It works well in a core with sun setters like Mega Charizard Y and the (now rejected) Ninetales.
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i'd prefer to use Mega Charizard Y as the wallbreaker itself rather than doubling up on a redundant extra fire-type. also, the fact that ninetales was rejected only strengthens the fact that using darmanitan with sun support is generally a waste of time -- there are far better things you could be doing. i don't see how mentioning it in a core with a rejected pokemon really makes it viable.
but, given said support, it becomes a force to be reckoned with.
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the bottom line is that, while i admit darmanitan can hit really hard, the support it requires just isn't worth it in the long run when you can run much better wallbreakers (think kube, mega char y, etc.) for a lesser cost and don't suffer as debilitating flaws as darm (higher bulk, require less support, etc. regardless of what role you try to give it.

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RotomPoison said:
The idea is that Darmanitan is able to revenge opposing threats such as Charizard X
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it can't outspeed a +1 mega charizard x, which is essentially one of the most important benchmarks for viable scarfers.
while still doing a ton of damage otherwise with Flare Blitz, so it can act as a late game sweeper too, especially since scarfers like Latios aren't common anymore
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1. at the cost of pretty much all of its health
2. even if scarfers aren't as common, they still exist. regardless, it will get revenge killed by anything with priority (which is abundant) or speed (azu, conk, scarf terrak/chomp) and can't really clean that well against defensive/stall teams.
it also isn't too frail, and can take an Extreme Speed from Dragonite or (non CB) Brave Bird from Talonflame if it has to and has the coverage to immediately take them out after.
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compared to whatever Pokemon you think it can compete against for its role (e.g. garchomp as a scarfer/cleaner or kyurem-b as a wallbreaker), its bulk is pretty abysmal. the fact that it gets ohko'd by band tflame's brave bird even without any entry hazards is pretty self explanatory in terms of realizing its sub-par bulk.

darmanitan really doesn't need an analysis in a metagame which is so unkind to it.
 
It should never be taking those hits anyway, it was just to prove a point that it was not that frail. As long as Adamant Charizard X is used Jolly Darmanitan can revenge kill it.

I'm not saying it's a top tier threat at all, as it needs support and isn't that much more than another mediocre scarfer with a few advantages over others. If you want to reject it, that's fine, I was just making a case for it.
 
Alter said:
i'd prefer to use Mega Charizard Y as the wallbreaker itself rather than doubling up on a redundant extra fire-type. also, the fact that ninetales was rejected only strengthens the fact that using darmanitan with sun support is generally a waste of time -- there are far better things you could be doing. i don't see how mentioning it in a core with a rejected pokemon really makes it viable.
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I wasn't saying that was why it is viable, and I wasn't saying that it needed sun to work as it hits like a truck even without it
the bottom line is that, while i admit darmanitan can hit really hard, the support it requires just isn't worth it in the long run when you can run much better wallbreakers (think kube, mega char y, etc.) for a lesser cost and don't suffer as debilitating flaws as darm (higher bulk, require less support, etc. regardless of what role you try to give it.
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Uh, you do realise that Mega Charizard Y requires similar levels of support due to that 4x SR weakness rather than 2x. Give Darmanitan that much at least, and it is also capable of dealing with special walls, making a core of the two decent. also, Darmanitan works so much better alongside Grass-types like Venusaur (and its mega) than Kyu-B does due to the good synergy between Fire- and Grass-types, as well as one being physical (rather than mixed) and (in this case) the other being special.
it can't outspeed a +1 mega charizard x, which is essentially one of the most important benchmarks for viable scarfers.
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It has no businesss staying in on one anyway. But, if being used by a player with any skill what-so-ever, you should be predicting its switch and be going for Sheer Force-boosted Rock Slides, (252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Rock Slide vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 206-244 (61.8 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, OHKO before mega) and if it is the faster variant, it outpaces before a DD when using a Choice Scarf and still 2HKOs (obviously).
its bulk is pretty abysmal. the fact that it gets ohko'd by band tflame's brave bird even without any entry hazards is pretty self explanatory in terms of realizing its sub-par bulk.
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You can say the same for Alakazam who is still a solid OU threat: 252+ Atk Talonflame itemless Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 294-346 (116.6 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO. The fact that Darmanitan can take LO/Sky Plate Talon's Brave Bird even part of the time from full health is showing that it does have some bulk (dat 105 base HP tho), but Talonflame shouldn't even BE an issue as it is OHKO'd by Rock Slide (252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 600-708 (201.3 - 237.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO) if you predict and 2HKOd by Flare Blitz if you don't - OHKO after SR - and going down to the Brave Bird recoil when it KOs Darmanitan (assuming it is Life Orb) (252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 178-210 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Talonflame left with 119 HP if min damage, Darmanitan takes 59 HP recoil: 292 HP left. 252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 292. Darmanitan faints - Talonflame takes 97 HP recoil. Talonflame takes 22 HP Life Orb recoil (not enough HP to take 30 HP recoil). Talonflame faints.). If it is holding a Choice Band or Sky Plate, it is in a range where it will faint with the next attack: if it attacks again, it dies to recoil. if it switches out, it can't switch in again safely (aside from when something faints), and it will still be in KO range for any attack. If it carries Roost, it is KO'd by lots of things, and that would've been a wasted turn for Talonflame if it does go for roost as it will probably not recover enough for it to make much difference. However, under normal battle conditions, Talonflame will generally be at less than 22 HP below its max HP (especially as a revenge killer with Gale Wings) - enough for Sky Plate/CB variants to be KO'd by recoil. And if Darmanitan gets mid-damage, it will also be taken down by the recoil from Sky Plate/Choice Band variants. And this isn't even when Darmanitan is running Life Orb: 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 230-272 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - OHKO under normal battle conditions.
 
That isn't even under the sun:
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame in Sun: 347-409 (116.4 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The only problem I see with the sun is that it adds a Rock type weakness to your team (Mega Charizard Y and Darmanitan) and that isn't very beneficial, considering Stealth Rocks. Yes, Darmanitan is very strong, but does that in itself warrant it an analysis? It isn't very fast outside of the Choice Scarf set and it's weak to the common EdgeQuake combination. It's also weak to Aqua Jet, most notably Azumarill's Aqua Jet (I guess being under the Sun can help negate this). If you plan on revenge killing Mega Charizard X with Darmanitan, then you would just have to hope that it isn't running a Jolly Nature AND it would need to have retained some damage beforehand. I agree that it has almost uncomparable power, but I don't think overwhelming power is enough.
 
HypnoEmpire said:
That isn't even under the sun:
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame in Sun: 347-409 (116.4 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The only problem I see with the sun is that it adds a Rock type weakness to your team (Mega Charizard Y and Darmanitan) and that isn't very beneficial, considering Stealth Rocks. Yes, Darmanitan is very strong, but does that in itself warrant it an analysis? It isn't very fast outside of the Choice Scarf set and it's weak to the common EdgeQuake combination. It's also weak to Aqua Jet, most notably Azumarill's Aqua Jet (I guess being under the Sun can help negate this). If you plan on revenge killing Mega Charizard X with Darmanitan, then you would just have to hope that it isn't running a Jolly Nature AND it would need to have retained some damage beforehand. I agree that it has almost uncomparable power, but I don't think overwhelming power is enough.
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The point about Megazard X was to catch it on switch-in, but Scarf Darmanitan easily outpaces Zard before a DD boost, and you have no business coming in on a +1 DD ZardX in the first place. Scarf Darmanitan is mainly a cleaner, meaning that when it comes in threats like that should be out of the way first, and raw power is honestly why it is so much of a monster. The edgequake weakness doesn't phase it as it shouldn't be taking hits in the first place anyway. The wallbreaker set isn't designed to break down sweepers (as implied by the name), and I used Talonflame as an example just to make my point about it not being an issue. The wallbreaker set is capable of breaking through special walls with ease (obviously), but it is no slouch against physical walls either. If something doesn't resist Flare Blitz and isn't bulky they aren't going to safely switch into it. That is huge for Darmanitan. Hell, if it had a slightly better speed stat and better bulk it would easily meet the offensive characteristic imo.

Edit: Forgot to post this, but Ludicolo is done
Not sure if I need to do this anymore, but tagging GatoDelFuego and Darkie
 
gamer boy said:
The edgequake weakness doesn't phase it as it shouldn't be taking hits in the first place anyway.
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gamer boy said:
Hell, if it had a slightly better speed stat and better bulk it would easily meet the offensive characteristic imo.
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This basically sums up Darmanitan's problems in OU. I definitely think that Darmanitan's Flare Blitz is the strongest in the game, but it doesn't have the Defenses or the Speed to make good use of it. Look at it like a ladder. At the top of the ladder, we have Darmanitan's Attack while the legs of the ladder represent Darmanitans other qualities (Speed and Bulk). With such a huge weight at the top of the ladder, it needs equally good Speed and/or Bulk to hold Darmanitan's weight (Attack). Without the support of the legs, the ladder will collapse easily. I don't know if it's just me, but just simply having a lot of Attack isn't enough. Why do you think Rampardos isn't OU?
 
HypnoEmpire said:
This basically sums up Darmanitan's problems in OU. I definitely think that Darmanitan's Flare Blitz is the strongest in the game, but it doesn't have the Defenses or the Speed to make good use of it. Look at it like a ladder. At the top of the ladder, we have Darmanitan's Attack while the legs of the ladder represent Darmanitans other qualities (Speed and Bulk). With such a huge weight at the top of the ladder, it needs equally good Speed and/or Bulk to hold Darmanitan's weight (Attack). Without the support of the legs, the ladder will collapse easily. I don't know if it's just me, but just simply having a lot of Attack isn't enough. Why do you think Rampardos isn't OU?
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Because Rampardos has base 58 speed...
 
craymond727 said:
Because Rampardos has base 58 speed...
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Yeah, I understand that, but in a way, they're similar. Rampardos is terrible outside of Trick Room and even in it, but that's besides the point. Darmanitan suffers from a below average Speed stat that is only somewhat mitigated with the use of a Choice Scarf, but being locked into a move can suck (I guess that's true for all Choiced pokemon) and Darmanitan is a terrible U-Turning pokemon, mostly because of its Stealth Rock weakness. As a wall breaker, it can't handle threats like Greninja and Talonflame, both of which are very common in OU. If it had a little more speed, then it would perform much better. That's just my input on the matter. Also, the similarities between Rampardos and Darmanitan are that they are both slow and very hard hitters. I know it's an odd comparison, but if Darmanitan can't move before the opposing pokemon, then it dies (at least most of the time), and that's really bad considering Darmanitan's reliance on Flare Blitz. If you replace Darmanitan with Rampardos and Flare Blitz with Head Smash in the last sentence, it makes sense. It also doesn't help that Darmanitan has a Stealth Rock weakness. I would normally agree that it's an excellent wall breaker, but it can't 2HKO Quagsire, so that's a huge downer. It does 2HKO it in the Sun, so maybe it has a niche as a good pokemon in the Sun (maybe?).
 
Rampardos' speed stat is absolutely awful
Darmanitan's speed stat is only a bit below average

Plus Darm hits harder anyway. I mean it's not a stellar mon but I wouldn't call it unviable.
 
Sergeant Spooky said:
Rampardos' speed stat is absolutely awful
Darmanitan's speed stat is only a bit below average

Plus Darm hits harder anyway. I mean it's not a stellar mon but I wouldn't call it unviable.
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My comparison of Darmanitan to Rampardos was very extreme, but they share similar flaws... Rampardos just shows it in a more obvious manner.
 
HypnoEmpire said:
My comparison of Darmanitan to Rampardos was very extreme, but they share similar flaws... Rampardos just shows it in a more obvious manner.
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The issue with Rampardos is its pure Rock typing and crappy speed. They do not share similar flaws as Rampardos doesn't tend to force switches when it isn't under TR. Unlike its prevo in LC, Rampardos has nothing which warrents its use over the rest of the tier (its prevo's main reason is the highest attack stat in LC. Add in its exceptional bulk with Eviolite or its sweeping capabilities with Scarf or Band and you have a pokemon that can hold its own in the tier). Rampardos can't do that and is still pretty bad in NU (basing around last gen, obviously) wheras Darmanitan was easily UU last gen and is easily UU this gen. Unlike Rampardos, Darmanitan can actually do SOMETHING, and it can take advantage of weather to further augment this (Rampardos can't take advantage of Sandstorm even WITH the SpD boost it provides). Add in Sheer Force and you have yourself a monster. I think you'd be better comparing Darmanitan-Z with Rampardos as, if you could use Darmanitan-Z seperately, they would have similar floors (shitty speed, poor defensive typing yada yada yada...) dispite them both having sky high offensive stats (Darmanitan-Z's 140 SpA, Rampardos' 160 Atk (both effectively (not literally) lower than Darmanitan's attack on Sheer Force-boosted attacks (which is most))). At least Darmanitan has a usable speed stat, and, while it is frail, its HP stat of 105 does give it some kind of bulk - Game Freak probably gave it decent HP knowing that it would be firing off STAB Sheer Force Flare Blitzes off of its base 140 Atk stat. Also, if very few Pokemon can switch into something that forces many switches safely, isn't that more than enough of a reason to use it (Rampardos, while having a similar attack stat, doesn't force switches due to that crappy speed)?
 
Okay, so if you're going to argue about Darmanitan, there's a few things you need to consider:

1) Sun support does not really exist. Sure there's Mega Zard Y, but you're stacking SR weaks with no defensive synergy for Pokemon that basically fulfill the same role. Sun is for all intents and purpose useless to this discussion.

2) Darmanitan is really frail and provides no defensive synergy to the team. Many hard-hitting offensive Pokemon/wallbreakers have at minimum usable bulk and useful resistances to take advantage of. This is a huge hit to its viability -- overall use for a team.

3) Darmanitan is reliant on a recoil-inducing move to dish out significant damage, and is weak to Stealth Rock. These factors combined mean it will die very quickly. Compare this to something like Kyurem-B, which is not reliant on recoil-inducing moves and has access to Roost for reliable recovery, which makes up for its Stealth Rock weakness to at least some extent.

4) Darmanitan has an unfortunate Speed stat combined with mediocre bulk/typing that leaves it vulnerable to numerous threats on offensive teams. This makes it reliant on a Choice Scarf or rather mediocre against offensive teams. A Choice Scarf is not very hard to exploit, for example a locked-in Flare Blitz provides setup opportunities for Mega Charizard X and Mega Gyarados, and a locked-in Rock Slide or Superpower provides easy setups for a lot of things.

If you combine all these factors together, Darmanitan isn't a very appealing choice for an OU team. It hits HARD but that isn't enough in a metagame filled with titanic attackers that overall contribute more than it to the battle. That's a no from me.

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This last bit is not related to Darmanitan, but to the thread itself. I ought to make this clear: comparisons to something as unviable as Rampardos should not be happening. Any possible cases for viability must be supported with replays from the upper PS ladder (1800+) and/or from tournaments supplemented with a detailed analysis of what makes the Pokemon viable AND a worthwhile choice for an OU team. The latter part is of particular importance; recently the standards for rejection have been tightened. While many Pokemon are technically 'usable' or 'viable', only a select amount are actually worth considering for a competitive OU team to be used in a serious match. Only those Pokemon get analyses.
CyclicCompound said:
Adding on to what Jukain said, you can make calculations all day, but they're not sufficient enough on their own to justify using a Pokemon, it's all in theory (particularly when you're assuming every perfect condition to occur). Replays are worth much more when it comes to understanding how a Pokemon fares in the metagame. I'm not saying to go out and collect a bunch of half-assed replays about Porygon-Z against incompetent opponents, either. I'm talking about higher-level competitive battles that actually contribute to the tier. Furthermore, I don't wish to be mean, but I'm not getting the feeling that most of you actually understand the metagame enough. Examples like Blissey and Assault Vest Snorlax come up way too often for me to take some of you seriously.

There is a huge difference between "I can find a niche set for this seldom-seen Pokemon" and "I would take this into a serious, competitive match with the intent to win." Please learn this difference and post accordingly.

Please think before you post any more suggestions on this thread. You know who you are.

And again, if you want to contribute, PLEASE spend your time contributing to the threads we already have going, NOT begging to reserve an analysis for a shitty Pokemon.
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Jukain said:
Okay, so if you're going to argue about Darmanitan, there's a few things you need to consider:

1) Sun support does not really exist. Sure there's Mega Zard Y, but you're stacking SR weaks with no defensive synergy for Pokemon that basically fulfill the same role. Sun is for all intents and purpose useless to this discussion.

2) Darmanitan is really frail and provides no defensive synergy to the team. Many hard-hitting offensive Pokemon/wallbreakers have at minimum usable bulk and useful resistances to take advantage of. This is a huge hit to its viability -- overall use for a team.

3) Darmanitan is reliant on a recoil-inducing move to dish out significant damage, and is weak to Stealth Rock. These factors combined mean it will die very quickly. Compare this to something like Kyurem-B, which is not reliant on recoil-inducing moves and has access to Roost for reliable recovery, which makes up for its Stealth Rock weakness to at least some extent.

4) Darmanitan has an unfortunate Speed stat combined with mediocre bulk/typing that leaves it vulnerable to numerous threats on offensive teams. This makes it reliant on a Choice Scarf or rather mediocre against offensive teams. A Choice Scarf is not very hard to exploit, for example a locked-in Flare Blitz provides setup opportunities for Mega Charizard X and Mega Gyarados, and a locked-in Rock Slide or Superpower provides easy setups for a lot of things.

If you combine all these factors together, Darmanitan isn't a very appealing choice for an OU team. It hits HARD but that isn't enough in a metagame filled with titanic attackers that overall contribute more than it to the battle. That's a no from me.

---

This last bit is not related to Darmanitan, but to the thread itself. I ought to make this clear: comparisons to something as unviable as Rampardos should not be happening. Any possible cases for viability must be supported with replays from the upper PS ladder (1800+) and/or from tournaments supplemented with a detailed analysis of what makes the Pokemon viable AND a worthwhile choice for an OU team. The latter part is of particular importance; recently the standards for rejection have been tightened. While many Pokemon are technically 'usable' or 'viable', only a select amount are actually worth considering for a competitive OU team to be used in a serious match. Only those Pokemon get analyses.
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After reading Jukain's post, I have changed my mind. Darmanitan should not get an analysis
 
Jukain said:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/mandibuzz.3495150/

I'd like to do a slight update to this. The author has disappeared, but the set requires some changing as detailed in one of my posts. Furthermore, the EV spread could use some updating. It should be EV'd to survive 2 Focus Blasts from Lando (248/108). idk what protocol to use for this so just posting here.
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I think you just need to contact an admin (preferably tier leader) to gain editing rights.
3) Darmanitan is reliant on a recoil-inducing move to dish out significant damage, and is weak to Stealth Rock. These factors combined mean it will die very quickly. Compare this to something like Kyurem-B, which is not reliant on recoil-inducing moves and has access to Roost for reliable recovery, which makes up for its Stealth Rock weakness to at least some extent.
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(commenting on italicized part) So are Talonflame and Staraptor, except they are reliant on two rather than one. While they both have access to recovery, the former has a 4x weakness to SR rather than a simple 2x weakness, basically forcing un-banded varients into using it (although it really doesn't care due to its crappy movepool), and the latter really, REALLY can't use its recovery well. If Darmanitan were to gain access to reliable recovery in... lets say, for the sake of simplicity, Roost (because all of Kyurem, Talonflame and Staraptor get it), it would float in the same boat as Staraptor. While I agree with your other points, this one is a little... what's the word... 'iffy' to say the least. However, I lost interrest in doing Darm yesterday when I decided to finish breeding my VGC team, and I feel that, while in no way is it inviable, it is in a rather arkward position in that it almost meets the current analysis acceptance criteria, but it has run out of energy to run that last mile out of the 26.4-ish miles in the theoretical analysis marathon. I think that it should be accepted at some point in the future, but not at this moment.
 
Jukain said:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/mandibuzz.3495150/

I'd like to do a slight update to this. The author has disappeared, but the set requires some changing as detailed in one of my posts. Furthermore, the EV spread could use some updating. It should be EV'd to survive 2 Focus Blasts from Lando (248/108). idk what protocol to use for this so just posting here.
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Made the changes myself, but next time just post on the thread itself so I don't glaze over it :)
 
OU is pretty much complete. The OU analysis is at the point where new analyses are no longer being made, and the only contributions being made are QC and GP checks along with other comments regarding Pokemon's movesets for the few remaining Pokemon that haven't been completed yet, along with rejections. Almost every viable OU candidate has already received an analysis now. Does this mean OU is nearly complete? Will the official OU tier list be complete within this month or the next?
 
MyNameIsVeryCreative said:
OU is pretty much complete. The OU analysis is at the point where new analyses are no longer being made, and the only contributions being made are QC and GP checks along with other comments regarding Pokemon's movesets for the few remaining Pokemon that haven't been completed yet, along with rejections. Almost every viable OU candidate has already received an analysis now. Does this mean OU is nearly complete? Will the official OU tier list be complete within this month or the next?
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There is an official OU tier list already, and, provided someone finds a Pokemon with a niche and provide a solid arguement, it may be accepted for an analysis.
 
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