My bad. I was under the impression it did.
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XY OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - BATON PASS [READ POST #590]
- Thread starter haunter
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My bad. I was under the impression it did.
I will admit stall really doesn't have much against baton pass, but going back to BW Reuniclus, there was nothing stall could do to that. Sometimes a playstyle just isn't that viable.
Setting hazards is very useful because it prevents Smeargle's Sash+Spore from working. Which may become their last resort of you manage to set up. Depending on your personal anti-bp strategy, you may want to set hazards.
Yes but stall was nowhere near as common as it is now. In generation 5 stall teams weren't as good because stuff like Choice Specs rain boosted Keldeo's Hydro Pump's were thrown around all the time and stall just couldn't handle stuff like that well. Now that weather has died down the metagame isn't filled with as much ultra crazy super sayan hard hitting attacks like those and stall is now considered better as it can actually take hits better. And stall is a viable playing style and has a good shot at defeating just about most of the play styles. The main problem is with Baton Pass vs stall however is that stall has no way to win against it without running extremely stupid stuff like Circle Throw Exploud or something. Baton Pass is more match up reliant than anything and that is why I think it should be nerfed.
Ow yeah not sure if I am right about all of this but that is how I interpreted it.
You realize you're comparing one Pokemon (one piece of a puzzle), to a team of six (a full puzzle). Stall could find it's way around Reuniclus, it was just extremely difficult. Last gen had a HUGE power Creep, and weather had a lot to do with it.
Also, I like how you said Stall "just isn't that viable".
It is, unless it's going up against a BP chain. . .
It isnt the best stratagy
A. There is a risk of espy coming in
B. Gives them a turn to set up
C. Hazards are best early game, which it when you want to hit them before they get up boosts.
I havent experienced hazards vs bp as the main aim is to break the chain
When your counter can be stopped by Spore Smeargle and hazards prevent Smeargle from working, I have to disagree with you. Letting them set up is a small price to pay to beat them later.
In my case, that means using Mega Gyarados with Roar. I don't care how many boosts they have, as long as I can guarantee the sweep after I use Roar. Hazards make that possible.
And Espeon doesn't always come in the first turn. It's a risk for the BP team too, because whatever is threatening to set rocks could also kick Espeon's ass.
Ok, i havent had experience with bp vs hazards, the damage could stack but wish would be great.
Mega gyarados with roar just shows how op bp is @_@. The fact that one of the best answers to beat it costs you your mega and isnt much use otherwise (a spdef restalk set would work but dd is much better). The only problem with that is sylveons hypervoice. Sorry if im wrong and roar mega gyara is good, i just havent seen it.
Just so I am understanding the hazards argument correctly, it is that you can set up hazards while the opponent accumulates boosts. This causes Smeargle to break his Sash, preventing it from surviving long enough to spore. This scenario is assuming that (a) Espeon isn't brought in and (b) Sashless Smeargle is as good as dead. If Smeargle has accumulated Speed boosts, then its Sash is irrelevant unless it comes to priority attackers. As for Mega Gyarados using Roar to abuse the hazards, does this not, once again, ignore Espeon which is likely to have Speed boosts and possible Iron Defense-boosted Defense stats in case of an attack?
Mega Gyarados is still good even with Roar on a DD set, I just had to sacrifice Ice Fang, and I wasn't using Ice Fang that often to tell the truth.
The thing about Sylveon is that you don't mega evolve until you have enough attack to OHKO sylveon. And you don't overdo with the dragon dances, you phase the bp team as soon as you get 2 boosts so you can start sweeping.
Gyarados is immune to Stored Power.
Mold Breaker guarantees Soundproof and Magic Bounce won't work.
And I don't take time setting hazards. I use rocks, switch into Gyarados, use Dragon Dance once (twice if possible), and then go for the Roar. After I phase, I start spamming Waterfall. No point in abusing rocks for damage, they are there for the sole reason of breaking Smeargle's sash.
If they bring Espeon, it will become more dramatic, but not impossible. It helps that I can still use Roar anytime, so by the time Smeargle gets to come in, the chain is already broken. So I switch into my sleep absorber, attack Smeargle to break the Sash, and try to bring Gyarados again, only that this time if I get a DD boost it's gg.
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made reqs under the username fk bp
never really had too much trouble with baton pass, only lost once or twice and most teams i make naturally end up beating it
that being said, the style is a cancer on pokemon. those mini-pass chains are also a cancer. i'll be voting option 3, but if I could I would vote for doing both 2 and 3
never really had too much trouble with baton pass, only lost once or twice and most teams i make naturally end up beating it
that being said, the style is a cancer on pokemon. those mini-pass chains are also a cancer. i'll be voting option 3, but if I could I would vote for doing both 2 and 3
Ah, I see, that is what I overlooked.
Your scenario makes more sense now but still isn't exactly an answer to BP. Roar Mega Gyarados certainly probably works now because of the fact that, as of now, it is relatively obscure. If we do not ban Baton Pass and instead resort to using counters mentioned on this thread, such as Mega Gyarados, then it no longer is as effective. Now, people will just setup on it while it DDs, not expecting Roar. When it does come, it is usually game for them. Once Mega Gyarados becomes common, which is essentially what is being suggested when people say that you simply need to carry a counter, then this same thing will not work. People will not set up on Mega Gyarados and instead just go for the kill.
Another assumption being made is that Smeargle will always go for the Spore. In the event where people start equipping every team with BP counters, such as Mega Gyarados, then people will start going for Ingrain before Spore. On top of that, Encore on Smeargle is still fairly common, so you may end up trapped accumulating your DD boosts before you phaze.
Essentially, what I am saying here is that Mega Gyarados with Roar now most certainly is a good counter to BP because, apart from people who have experience with it on the Suspect Ladder, few people have seen this strategy. Once the whole adaptation scenario occurs, with everyone being prepared to counter BP with such strategies, then the strategies will no longer be effective. This is because nothing has to be done to the actual team to deal with the mentioned strategies, the priorities or gameplan just have to be readjusted. Ingrain will be given higher priority and certain Pokemon will not be used for setup and instead will just be killed as soon as possible. In essence, when everyone starts carrying counter(s) to BP, as has been suggested multiple times, BP can easily adapt without having to change the team and instead just changing how momentum is built up and what is used before what.
You are not wrong.
But what you just did is describe how metagames work. By adapting to new threats.
Just like BP can adapt to things, other players can also adapt to BP.
Also:
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 348-411 (88.3 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 138-163 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
"Going for the kill" isn't exactly that easy.
The assumption you made here is that, while your rocks were being set up, the only thing Sylveon accumulated was Speed boosts, not even picking up a sub while you set up, brought in Mega Gyarados and then set up again.
Okay, so once BP adapts to the adapted metagame, how will the metagame adapt to BP's workaround for nearly all the counters listed out thus far?
That is a wait and see type thing as people on suspect are only starting to adapt to baton pass. There is no guarantee baton pass can even adapt to the counters to it. By going for ingrain first you become more susceptible to attackers.
We first started discussing baton pass ban months ago, but no one has done anything till now.
I believe the meta needs more time for now to see if we can adjust to baton pass accordingly.
So the suggested solution is wait and see if it gets worse? I'd imagine that that would bring us back to this stage again, which would entirely be a waste of time.
Wow this thread is ficked already most of the things people lasted as counters don't even work against a good bp player. Anyways I will pick 2 or 3, I'm not quite sure which, on the one hand I don't want to take away bp from scolioede or Espeon otherwise which could use it, but in the other hand mini bp chains are annoying too.
Anyways getting away from the overpoweredness (which it is), why do we want this cancer in the meta. It takes little to no skill to use, the only reason it seems "hard " to pull off is because most of the people using it are retarded, so a competent player like Deniss seems impressive. Winning then has nothing to do with skill, just matchup, because either a team auto-wins against bp or autoloses. We are a bunch of teenagers and adults playing Pokemon, it would be nice to at least justify it by having it be a game of skill, instead of just based on what team you build or having some random specific shit.
Also as for these counters people say exist, most of them can be played around easily or with the right team matchup. The rest, like roar gyara, are fucking garbage. Yes, maybe, you don't miss ice fang too much(you really do though). However, you are literally forced to run roar (or taunt), outclassed options, to avoid 100 pct losing to these teams. It is garbage and needs to get out
Anyways getting away from the overpoweredness (which it is), why do we want this cancer in the meta. It takes little to no skill to use, the only reason it seems "hard " to pull off is because most of the people using it are retarded, so a competent player like Deniss seems impressive. Winning then has nothing to do with skill, just matchup, because either a team auto-wins against bp or autoloses. We are a bunch of teenagers and adults playing Pokemon, it would be nice to at least justify it by having it be a game of skill, instead of just based on what team you build or having some random specific shit.
Also as for these counters people say exist, most of them can be played around easily or with the right team matchup. The rest, like roar gyara, are fucking garbage. Yes, maybe, you don't miss ice fang too much(you really do though). However, you are literally forced to run roar (or taunt), outclassed options, to avoid 100 pct losing to these teams. It is garbage and needs to get out
I'm gonna throw in my five cents on Baton pass, because strangely, I have faced baton pass numerous times, long before this discussion became a thing. I would frequently run into baton pass teams while laddering, and the same thing would happen every time. Either I won in the first few turns, or I lost in the first few turns. Because, unlike when you face any other team archetype, the only poke (or pokes, for those who overprepare for baton pass) that matter in the matchup is the one pokemon you have that actually stands a chance against the baton pass team. If that one poke can't stop the momentum in the first few turns, you auto lose outside of a lucky crit. Your walls, used for specific pokes that would murder you otherwise, become useless, as they are setup fodder for everything in baton pass and kill your offensive pressure and momentum. Your choiced pokes can't be used, as they will realize quickly what's up and switch in to something that can use that for setup fodder. Your utility and support pokes can do nothing, as they also have a different purpose that does not apply to baton pass. So it is all up to that one poke out of 10+ pokes to stop 6 pokes from defeating the rest of your team, that can't do anything to baton pass.
In case you missed what I was saying, what I am saying is that, unlike every other archetype in the meta, Baton pass is the only type you can't play normally against. Against any other team, regardless of how bad the matchup is, I don't outright lose in the first few turns. And even though some of my pokes might not be as useful, I can still use them for something against other team types. My whole team can work together to beat them, through sacrifice or smart play, I can even beat a bad matchup. This does not apply to baton pass. As mentioned, only one poke matters against it. And I have had many checks at my disposal, Talonflame, Landorus I, Thundurus I. These were the pokes I randomly had when I faced baton pass. And none of these guaranteed my victory. I have one pokemon against six, obv my opponent has far more room to play around me. I can't get creative, use a double switch or hard switch to put my opponent in a bad spot, because again, only this one pokemon can harm his strategy. All my pokes are vital to counter and check dangerous mons like Charizard X and Y, Pinsir, Aegislash and whatnot. So If I'm going to stand a better chance against baton pass, I have to sacrifice a vital pokemon on my team to make my matchup against it better. And it's still only two against six, because my other four pokemon still can't touch the chain. I improve my chances a little, but it still does not guarantee me a victory, my baton pass opponent still has six pokemon and a huge amount of room too have an answer to my two answers. While I struggle to improve my chances against everything, a good baton pass player simply needs to make small changes to his team to have good odds at beating every team archetype. No changing a vital team member, just maybe a move change, heck, maybe he simply learned something new, so he never makes that mistake again that allowed me to beat him (or a random crit, but this happens to every archetype). I can't replicate that, I have to overcompensate to take on everything, while a baton pass team does not, it has means around everything, which has been mentioned many times this thread (and probably millions in the original discussion thread).
So, tl.dr, Baton pass removes my ability to play the game the way I would normally play it, forcing me to overcompensate to beat a rare archetype, that rarely has to change anything in it's structure to not have reasonably good odds against everything else. This is, from my point of view, the reason baton pass needs to be nerfed. It's a cancerous way to let the meta develop, and I have had the opinion that baton pass was like this since fifth gen, as the archetype has progressively gotten ways to deal with all of it's problems. It's quite ridiculous, and I am glad to see something is being done about it.
In case you missed what I was saying, what I am saying is that, unlike every other archetype in the meta, Baton pass is the only type you can't play normally against. Against any other team, regardless of how bad the matchup is, I don't outright lose in the first few turns. And even though some of my pokes might not be as useful, I can still use them for something against other team types. My whole team can work together to beat them, through sacrifice or smart play, I can even beat a bad matchup. This does not apply to baton pass. As mentioned, only one poke matters against it. And I have had many checks at my disposal, Talonflame, Landorus I, Thundurus I. These were the pokes I randomly had when I faced baton pass. And none of these guaranteed my victory. I have one pokemon against six, obv my opponent has far more room to play around me. I can't get creative, use a double switch or hard switch to put my opponent in a bad spot, because again, only this one pokemon can harm his strategy. All my pokes are vital to counter and check dangerous mons like Charizard X and Y, Pinsir, Aegislash and whatnot. So If I'm going to stand a better chance against baton pass, I have to sacrifice a vital pokemon on my team to make my matchup against it better. And it's still only two against six, because my other four pokemon still can't touch the chain. I improve my chances a little, but it still does not guarantee me a victory, my baton pass opponent still has six pokemon and a huge amount of room too have an answer to my two answers. While I struggle to improve my chances against everything, a good baton pass player simply needs to make small changes to his team to have good odds at beating every team archetype. No changing a vital team member, just maybe a move change, heck, maybe he simply learned something new, so he never makes that mistake again that allowed me to beat him (or a random crit, but this happens to every archetype). I can't replicate that, I have to overcompensate to take on everything, while a baton pass team does not, it has means around everything, which has been mentioned many times this thread (and probably millions in the original discussion thread).
So, tl.dr, Baton pass removes my ability to play the game the way I would normally play it, forcing me to overcompensate to beat a rare archetype, that rarely has to change anything in it's structure to not have reasonably good odds against everything else. This is, from my point of view, the reason baton pass needs to be nerfed. It's a cancerous way to let the meta develop, and I have had the opinion that baton pass was like this since fifth gen, as the archetype has progressively gotten ways to deal with all of it's problems. It's quite ridiculous, and I am glad to see something is being done about it.
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yea uvood's post is on point. theres little interaction with baton pass teams. bp users just play with themselves and theres very little enjoyment in playing with it or against them. Its either you set up and win, lose to some niche set like roar/taunt mega gyara/ haze ninja/ trace gard (at the right moment), crit them, or just overpower them from the beginning with a banded / specs mon.
theres no sick plays that you can make because if you're using banded/specs theres a bunch of 50/50s in the early game. it's cool if you get 50/50s as a game progresses cause it shows how close the game was, but when a game is determined within the first few turns, thats kinda lame imo.
theres no sick plays that you can make because if you're using banded/specs theres a bunch of 50/50s in the early game. it's cool if you get 50/50s as a game progresses cause it shows how close the game was, but when a game is determined within the first few turns, thats kinda lame imo.
I've been using BatonPass a while now and been on the top 3 XY OU on Pokemon online being the highest ranked Batonpass player there. Now that I've been playing Showdown and using the BatonPass team at the suspect Ladder and achieved a 2700 coil; I do have alot of experience about Batonpass. I do realize that the team is actually strong but I disagree with option 2 or 3 as a nerf for it.
Option 2: Limiting the team for 3 Batonpasser is excessive and make the strategy almost useless to use. Let's say for example I had to choose 3 pokmeons. I'd choose scolipede for the speed boost and Espeon for the Magic bounce. The 3rd pokemon could either be Vaporeon or Sylveon(If you are going to make Espeon Bold and Sylveon calm). There's ton of threats to the team and a bullet punch could finish sylveon easily even with a +2 def. Whereas Espeon could be stalled by a Dark type pokemon making you unable to attack with stored power and if Sylveon died already then you're unable to use any of the chain as Scoli carries no attack, Espeon can't hit dark type. I'd vote for this option if it was limiting it to 4 pokemons with Batonpass instead of 3 because personally I do feel it's excessive.
Option 3: Banning a combination of Baton pass + Magic bounce means your chain can end with just 1 move such as taunt, roar and whirlwind. So this isn't a good option.
As for now I'm leaning towards voting to option 1 because Batonpass as it is now isn't that much of a threat to the game. It's only good in skilled players hand. It took me some effort to achieve a 2700 coil in a ladder filled with tons of Batonpass counters such as Haze gengar, Taunt Mega gyrados, Haze Greninja and much other haze variants. Mega Alakazam and Mega Gardevoirs are good counters too. Thundurus deadly set with Nasty plot+ Taunt and Life orb is very dangerous to deal with. It's now hard winning most battles with Batonpass especially with the tons of taunt and haze users with different variety and adding roar on unexpected pokemons to carry it. The strategy can be easily dealt with and if the opponent is good and has a counter then it's pretty much good game because there's nothing you can do to stop some strategies. Example : A focus sash Haze Greninja. He's guaranteed to use his Haze. Without the boosts most Batonpass pokemons are fragile and can be dealt easily plus there's only 3 attacker Espeon, Zapdos and Sylveon. So countering it is easy if you've got a way to counter it. When Batonpass chain were first revealed I had a hard time countering them but now after some experience I can win against it easily with my regular OU team. All I had to do is make 1 move slot which is haze and if used in good player hand then the BP player has nothing to do. Plus Batonpass is very risk to run as while boosting stats then there's a chance of being hit with a crititical as 1 critical can end the strategy.
Btw When is the voting going to happen? and do I need to take a screenshot of my coil and post it here to be eligible to vote? Thanks
Option 2: Limiting the team for 3 Batonpasser is excessive and make the strategy almost useless to use. Let's say for example I had to choose 3 pokmeons. I'd choose scolipede for the speed boost and Espeon for the Magic bounce. The 3rd pokemon could either be Vaporeon or Sylveon(If you are going to make Espeon Bold and Sylveon calm). There's ton of threats to the team and a bullet punch could finish sylveon easily even with a +2 def. Whereas Espeon could be stalled by a Dark type pokemon making you unable to attack with stored power and if Sylveon died already then you're unable to use any of the chain as Scoli carries no attack, Espeon can't hit dark type. I'd vote for this option if it was limiting it to 4 pokemons with Batonpass instead of 3 because personally I do feel it's excessive.
Option 3: Banning a combination of Baton pass + Magic bounce means your chain can end with just 1 move such as taunt, roar and whirlwind. So this isn't a good option.
As for now I'm leaning towards voting to option 1 because Batonpass as it is now isn't that much of a threat to the game. It's only good in skilled players hand. It took me some effort to achieve a 2700 coil in a ladder filled with tons of Batonpass counters such as Haze gengar, Taunt Mega gyrados, Haze Greninja and much other haze variants. Mega Alakazam and Mega Gardevoirs are good counters too. Thundurus deadly set with Nasty plot+ Taunt and Life orb is very dangerous to deal with. It's now hard winning most battles with Batonpass especially with the tons of taunt and haze users with different variety and adding roar on unexpected pokemons to carry it. The strategy can be easily dealt with and if the opponent is good and has a counter then it's pretty much good game because there's nothing you can do to stop some strategies. Example : A focus sash Haze Greninja. He's guaranteed to use his Haze. Without the boosts most Batonpass pokemons are fragile and can be dealt easily plus there's only 3 attacker Espeon, Zapdos and Sylveon. So countering it is easy if you've got a way to counter it. When Batonpass chain were first revealed I had a hard time countering them but now after some experience I can win against it easily with my regular OU team. All I had to do is make 1 move slot which is haze and if used in good player hand then the BP player has nothing to do. Plus Batonpass is very risk to run as while boosting stats then there's a chance of being hit with a crititical as 1 critical can end the strategy.
Btw When is the voting going to happen? and do I need to take a screenshot of my coil and post it here to be eligible to vote? Thanks
Don't judge how easy it is to beat bp based on this suspect ladder! Everyone will be using retarded haze shit or roar shit or prankster taunt because they don't want to lose to all the bp! The point is that it is more or less impossible to beat without using obscure counters. Chimpacts and uvoods points about it being not fun to play against are also good
Just my thoughts, I may be wrong here, but isn't a strategy considered overcentralising when without these few specific counters people are talking about a strategy is unbeatable, especially since as Tesung says they are obscure and have no use aside from countering baton pass? There's a difference between strong but beatable and "I now have so many boosts there is literally nothing in the game that can kill me, and even if it could I can kill it before it can touch me." If one slot on your team must be taken by something, surely the reason it is needed is too strong. Crit beats it doesn't seem like a valid argument to me, as that means either teams are forced to use guaranteed critmon or you're relying on hax. Mega Luke could be beaten on a switch if you used ice beam and it froze him, but that doesn't mean he didn't deserve to be banned.
Option 3, as many people have said, removes legitimate pokémon from the game which could be used in other ways. Magic bounce espeon is not broken. +/6/6/6/6/6 Magic bounce espeon is broken. Passing speed isn't broken. Passing speed once it cannot be removed is broken.
For these reason, I think option 2 is required.
(Again, I know I may be wrong, don't hurt me.)
Option 3, as many people have said, removes legitimate pokémon from the game which could be used in other ways. Magic bounce espeon is not broken. +/6/6/6/6/6 Magic bounce espeon is broken. Passing speed isn't broken. Passing speed once it cannot be removed is broken.
For these reason, I think option 2 is required.
(Again, I know I may be wrong, don't hurt me.)
For clarification, I believe option 3 is the combination of BP+ Magic Bounce + Speed Boost. Not the Pokemon themselves.
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