Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[poison103]

If this logic was applied to previous Metagames, I suppose Dragonite, Hydreigon, Latios, Kyurem-B (remember that it only has soft counters, not hard counters), and quite a few others that have no direct counters could be Uber in BW, right? Even in this Gen, Dragonite maintains no hard counters, as Fairy-Types are struck down by its coverage moves. Should Dragonite be Uber? Obviously not; every Pokemon has checks that, when used correctly, can threaten a Pokemon. I know what the rest of your post is trying to say, though, so it's not like this statement ENTIRELY derails your argument, but...you know what I mean.



Guys, it's going nowhere. Let's focus on other offensive Fire-Types like Victini, Darminitan, and Entei.

shadowmariogalaxy i see your point and i apologize for the misuse of the word "hard counter" By hard counter i essentially meant a pokemon that could prevent another from doing anything. Although to your dragonite argument i think azumarill counters dragonite nicely as it walls the most common dragonite set and counters back with playrough or ice punch although dragonite variants carrying thunderpunch do threaten it out. However, these pokemon have the versatility to ensure there is no one hard counter to all of its sets. There are hard counters to specific dragonite sets doe. Breloom however, lacks this versatility, altho items may differ, all technilooms essentially run the same set, with variations such as swords dance here and there. I was refering to breloom specifically because it is not as multifaceted as a pokemon like dragonite just to clear things up.

 

[reale]

I'd like to argue for Togekiss to be placed in A rank. Its unique typing gives it some useful resistances including a Ground-immunity and a x4 Resistance to Fighting and Bug. It also has excellent base 85/95/115 defenses, allowing it to sponge most hits. It also has access to reliable means of recovery in Roost and Wish. It can provide invaluable support to its team with Defog, a niche it shares with few viable pokemon in OU like the Latis, Mandibuzz, Scizor, Gliscor and Zapdos. The advantage it has over this pokes is its Fairy-typing: being able to switch in on most Garchomp sets safely is no small feat. Thunder Wave is another move it can utilise to great effect, as even pokemon it can't touch, like Heatran don't appreciate the parahax. And ofcourse, ParaFlinching with Serene Grace is as effective (and annoying) as ever. Base 120 SAtk helps greatly too, as it hits reasonably hard with no investment as well. I personally really like this following set the most, though it can run many sets including mixed Work Up (yeah, the one with Hustle ExtremeSpeed), the UU StallBreaker set (Nasty Plot/Roost/Heal Bell/Air Slash), a Cleric Set, a WishPasser set as well as offensive LO sets with a variety of special moves including Fire Blast, Aura Sphere, Grass Knot, Dazzling Gleam etc. I think Togekiss deserves to be amongst the other A rank pokes, from my personal experience using it at least.

Togekiss @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Def
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Air Slash
- Roost
- Thunder Wave
- Defog

I agree, though Defog should be replaced with something else.
On another note, Togekiss is surprisingly well paired with:
Jirachi@Leftovers
Trait:Serene Grace
EVs: 252 hp+252 sdef/def
Careful/Impish (+sdef/def, -satk)
- Body Slam
- Iron Head
- Wish
- Stealth Rock

Both of them definitely A (if not A-), and where is blastoise(mega), it has STAB aura sphere and dark pulse plus amazing bulk (it hunts your charizard down).

 

[I2edShift]

Both of them definitely A (if not A-), and where is blastoise(mega), it has STAB aura sphere and dark pulse plus amazing bulk (it hunts your charizard down).

Not really, both ZardX is neutral to water and so is ZardY when the sun is out, with 111 SpD. ZardY usually carries Solarbeam and ZardX can do work with STAB Outrage.

 

[reale]

Not really, both ZardX is neutral to water and so is ZardY when the sun is out, with 111 SpD. ZardY usually carries Solarbeam and ZardX can do work with STAB Outrage.

my bad, though ZardY Solarbeam will not OHKO m.blast and m.blast has a chance 2OHKO it with water pulse.
ZardX outrage also 2OHKO m.blast assuming m.blast has 252 hp EV, while 2 dark pulse also 2OHKO ZardX (worse with SR)
..
But
..
Zard has higher speed than Blast, so... yeah

 

[Photofluid]

Bisharp manage to hit A? That is kinda surprising, I think its fragile would hold it a bit off(damn it is way tougher than I have thought). Now our premier defog counter is definitely seeing proper level usage, it really takes quite long for people to realize how good it is.

 

[I2edShift]

my bad, though ZardY Solarbeam will not OHKO m.blast and m.blast has a chance to OHKO it with water pulse and
ZardX outrage also 2OHKO m.blast assuming m.blast has 252 hp EV, while 2 dark pulse also 2OHKO ZardX,
..
But
..
Zard has higher speed than Blast, so... yeah

It's basically a trade, with Blastoise on the losing. You can probably easily take down either Zard with some form of priority after sufficient damage. And I know for a fact that M. Blastoise can't OHKO ZardY when the Sun is up. Not with its special bulk and a neutral hit. With SR damage it's trivial, bit people know better than to switch ZardY in when rocks are up.

Blastoise (mega) is still pretty good and a great spinner though.

 

[reale]

Bisharp manage to hit A? That is kinda surprising, I think its fragile would hold it a bit off(damn it is way tougher than I thought). Now our premier defog counter is definitely seeing proper level usage, it really takes quite long for people to realize how good it is.

bisharp is good, I once got a problem with it until gliscor sent in.

It's basically a trade, with Blastoise on the losing. You can probably easily take down either Zard with some form of priority after sufficient damage. And I know for a fact that M. Blastoise can't OHKO ZardY when the Sun is up. Not with its special bulk and a neutral hit. With SR damage it's trivial, bit people know better than to switch ZardY in when rocks are up.

Blastoise (mega) is still pretty good and a great spinner though.

yeah, I've changed my post, sorry.
On another note, blastozie have hidden power rock and ice beam

 

[Ramplestilskin]

Also I forgot to mention that Mega-Blastoise basically killed bulky Starmie lol.

What do you mean? That MBlastoise is a better bulky spinner than Starmie, or that MBlastoise can kill Starmie one-on-one ?
For the first solution, just think about recover (and natural cure), you'll understand the staying power of Starmie.
For the second solution, I think it doesn't really matter, Starmie's job is not to kill MBlastoise.
Anyway, both are really good spinners, that deserve at least B+ Rank.

 

[shadowyoshi64]

Umbreon has been approved for a write up, so we can rank it now. I guess I'll start by saying it should be ranked B, or C+. It's one of the Bulkiest Clerics out there, bar maybe the pink blobs. Synchronize is really good as when it gets hit by a status move, the user also gets effected by it, plus it has Heal Bell to take it off itself. STAB Foul Play is also very good to have. Some things to note is that it can take an unSTABed Sacred Sword from Aegislash doing around 60-70%. Base 95 HP is nice for passing wishes to other team members. I'm not sure what else to put, as I haven't really used it, I just got the info from Swamp Link's info he gave in C&C.

 

[farranpoison]

I suppose Umbreon is more viable than last gen in OU because the focus on Ghosts instead of Fighting types now. However, it really seems to be outclassed but a lot of other mons, especially Mandibuzz. Foul Play, Heal Bell, and Synchronize might be somewhat useful, but I feel like as a Foul Play user/Dark type wall it's outclassed by Mandibuzz and as a Heal Beller it's outclassed by Sylveon since it has a better defensive type. C+/B- is a tad too generous, it's most likely only a C.

 

[Photofluid]

What do you mean? That MBlastoise is a better bulky spinner than Starmie, or that MBlastoise can kill Starmie one-on-one ?
For the first solution, just think about recover (and natural cure), you'll understand the staying power of Starmie.
For the second solution, I think it doesn't really matter, Starmie's job is not to kill MBlastoise.
Anyway, both are really good spinners, that deserve at least B+ Rank.

MBlast is considered a horrible spinner in its own post as it possess zero longetivity and does not survive long, plus you have defog now.

 

[farranpoison]

MBlast is considered a horrible spinner in its own post as it possess zero longetivity and does not survive long, plus you have defog now.

I fail to see how a spinner that can threaten the likes of pretty much every spinblocking Ghost with Mega Launcher Dark Pulse is a bad spinner.

It's pretty much the second best spinner compared to Excadrill right now.

 

[Punchshroom]

MBlast is considered a horrible spinner in its own post as it possess zero longetivity and does not survive long, plus you have defog now.

79 / 120 / 95 bulk takes any non super-effective hit and gets the spin, and still provides some degree of longevity. 78 Speed outpaces almost all spinblockers while the faster ones get OHKOed by Dark Pulse and 2HKOes all the others. How is this bad at spinning?

 

[Aasgier]

I would say MBlastoise does need Wish- as well as cleric support, though, to cover for Blastoise's sole flaws (though Blastoise has access to Refresh, it does not really have the moveslots for it). I never faced one, nor used one, so I won't talk about its tiering.

I just want to say it looks to be very capable of spinning more than once throughout a match and has enough bulk to tank multiple hits, and Mega Launcher Dark Pulse ensures it beats most spinblockers one-on-one, and either punches a hole in the opponents team or gets off the spin.

 

[Photofluid]

79 / 120 / 95 bulk takes any non super-effective hit and gets the spin, and still provides some degree of longevity. 78 Speed outpaces almost all spinblockers while the faster ones get OHKOed by Dark Pulse and 2HKOes all the others. How is this bad at spinning?

Well, I can be wrong, but there is always the solution of repeating throwing down EH, which is way more viable now, how many times can you spin them away? And unless you are super EH reliant you always have defog. Most importantly, on top of all these you have to take up the mega slot, which you may want to throw in Mawile, Lucario(if not banned), Zards, etc. (i.e. It really piss me off that Hydro Bump is not counted as pulse move)

 

[Ramplestilskin]

Well, I can be wrong, but there is always the solution of repeating throwing down EH, which is way more viable now, how many times can you spin them away? And unless you are super EH reliant you always have defog. Most importantly, on top of all these you have to take up the mega slot, which you may want to throw in Mawile, Lucario(if not banned), Zards, etc. (i.e. It really piss me off that Hydro Bump is not counted as pulse move)

Tentacruel has no heal move too, can't take down spin blockers and hit less hard than MBlastoise. Moreover, MBlastoise is much more bulkier. The only drawback is that it takes your mega slot. So without any doubt, MBlast should be at least B, just as tenta.
And stop comparing spinners to defogers, it's not the same use. Each time someone defoged against me, I was greatful to him.

 

[Lazybeef]

MBlast is a great spinner. It is just that many battlers don't want to use their only mega-evo to do something which could be done just as well with excadrill. If you REALLY don't want hazards on your side, you might as well run defog.

 

[Photofluid]

Tentacruel has no heal move too, can't take down spin blockers and hit less hard than MBlastoise. Moreover, MBlastoise is much more bulkier. The only drawback is that it takes your mega slot. So without any doubt, MBlast should be at least B, just as tenta.
And stop comparing spinners to defogers, it's not the same use. Each time someone defoged against me, I was greatful to him.

Tentacruel laugh at toxic spikes, is a reliable check to special set Mega Lucario, Azumarill, Vocarona, and is one of the best toxic user itself. Moreover it is among the few defensive spinner available in the entire meta, and it has black sludge/leftover. Btw, the two are very different pokemon to begin with so I am not going to continue.

Also, I wonder why you would be grateful to see unblockable defog when your opponent have not lay down their EH yet, or simply decides not to take one.

 

[Punchshroom]

Well, I can be wrong, but there is always the solution of repeating throwing down EH, which is way more viable now, how many times can you spin them away? And unless you are super EH reliant you always have defog. Most importantly, on top of all these you have to take up the mega slot, which you may want to throw in Mawile, Lucario(if not banned), Zards, etc. (i.e. It really piss me off that Hydro Bump is not counted as pulse move)

This is not always the case, as the Defoggers aren't necessarily superior to Rapid Spinners as a whole. Teams that do not wish to get rid of their own Stealth Rock (especially with Talonflames about) may opt for a Rapid Spinner instead, and the main choices for offensive teams would be Excadrill, Starmie, and MBlastoise.

Excadrill just happens to have a typing that synergizes very well with SR-weak mons. It also OHKOes Aegislash with LO STAB Earthquake, which is an extremely appealing trait for a spinner to have. Gourgeist does stop Excadrill cold as do burns, but the main problem Excadrill has when it comes to spinning is how it often falls prey to faster attackers due to its weaknesses and low bulk. The likes of Lucario, Greninja, Talonflame, and Garchomp, all of which can swiftly wipe it out before it can spin.

Starmie can either opt for a offensive LO Analytic spread, or a bulkier set with Recover. Essentially, the middle ground between Excadrill and Mega-Blastoise. Analytic sets pack a punch, and can nail an incoming spinblocker incredibly hard with the right move, or it can fish for Scald burns on said spinblocker and outlast it with Recover. Starmie is also much harder to stop from spinning due to its high speed, so denying the spin via revenge killing isn't always so simple. Starmie's main flaw is its Ghost and Grass weakness, meaning Analytic sets need better prediction, and the bulkier sets can't actually stay in on the spinblockers for long.

Mega-Blastoise is a tank of a spinblocker. Mega Launcher Dark Pulse sends chills down the spine of any daring spinblocker, and it is almost impossible for any spinblocker to actually beat Mega-Blastoise one-on-one, especially an offensive variant. While it theoretically boasts the most successful spin, it costs the team's Mega-slot, and being Mega means it cannot wield Leftovers: bad for any defensively minded Pokemon.

Well I've listed out the pros and cons of the offensive spinners, which would hopefully enlighten you to how these spinners are just as deserving of a spot on any team looking for a Defogger (unless they don't use hazards at all, which i say use the Defogger by all means). It's not like the Defoggers don't have their own share of flaws: Lati@s and Scizor can get trapped by Tyranitar and Magnezone respectively, and Mandibuzz is more or less a free invite for most Fairies and Electrics to come in. Also, Bisharps do lurk around. Even defensive spinblockers, such as Tentacruel and Forretress, have their merits, but I think you get the message here.

 

[Photofluid]

This is not always the case, as the Defoggers aren't necessarily superior to Rapid Spinners as a whole. Teams that do not wish to get rid of their own Stealth Rock (especially with Talonflames about) may opt for a Rapid Spinner instead, and the main choices for offensive teams would be Excadrill, Starmie, and MBlastoise.

Excadrill just happens to have a typing that synergizes very well with SR-weak mons. It also OHKOes Aegislash with LO STAB Earthquake, which is an extremely appealing trait for a spinner to have. Gourgeist does stop Excadrill cold as do burns, but the main problem Excadrill has when it comes to spinning is how it often falls prey to faster attackers due to its weaknesses and low bulk. The likes of Lucario, Greninja, Talonflame, and Garchomp, all of which can swiftly wipe it out before it can spin.

Starmie can either opt for a offensive LO Analytic spread, or a bulkier set with Recover. Essentially, the middle ground between Excadrill and Mega-Blastoise. Analytic sets pack a punch, and can nail an incoming spinblocker incredibly hard with the right move, or it can fish for Scald burns on said spinblocker and outlast it with Recover. Starmie is also much harder to stop from spinning due to its high speed, so denying the spin via revenge killing isn't always so simple. Starmie's main flaw is its Ghost and Grass weakness, meaning Analytic sets need better prediction, and the bulkier sets can't actually stay in on the spinblockers for long.

Mega-Blastoise is a tank of a spinblocker. Mega Launcher Dark Pulse sends chills down the spine of any daring spinblocker, and it is almost impossible for any spinblocker to actually beat Mega-Blastoise one-on-one, especially an offensive variant. While it theoretically boasts the most successful spin, it costs the team's Mega-slot, and being Mega means it cannot wield Leftovers: bad for any defensively minded Pokemon.

Well I've listed out the pros and cons of the offensive spinners, which would hopefully enlighten you to how these spinners are just as deserving of a spot on any team looking for a Defogger (unless they don't use hazards at all, which i say use the Defogger by all means). It's not like the Defoggers don't have their own share of flaws: Lati@s and Scizor can get trapped by Tyranitar and Magnezone respectively, and Mandibuzz is more or less a free invite for Fairies to come in. Even defensive spinblockers, such as Tentacruel and Forretress, have their merits, but I think you get the message here.

No, I am not denying the value of rapidspin at all(and I am using Tentacruel anyway), what I am depreciating is MBlastoise itself. Excadrill and Starmie have their respective niche. But for Blastoise I don't see anything outside a dark pulse by far, yes it gets rid of spinblockers with ease, but defogger laugh at ghost switch in anyway.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

The problem I have with justifying using Mega Blastoise is the amount of competition it faces. As a Spinner it competes with top-tier pokes like Excadrill and to a lesser extent Starmie/Tentacruel, and as a bulky water type, well, countless pokes like Slowbro, Rotom-W, Suicune, Starmie, Gastrodon, Milotic, Swampert, Empoleon, Jellicent, Vaporeon etc. Another thing is that it's weak to all the hazards it's trying to spin away, and it has no means of recovery (not even Lefties) to mitigate this issue. Even RestTalk isn't really viable considering you'd have to run RestTalk+Rapid Spin+Water STAB, which while it's got much more longevity, it has no coverage moves, and is prone to being setup on while asleep. There's also the problem of taking up your valuable Mega slot, which in itself isn't a problem but considering you have so many other options to remove hazards and the fact that Mega Blastoise isn't even the best Spinner around, I'd see this as quite a big issue. It has a niche, but due to its noticable flaws I'd rank it in C personally.

 

[Punchshroom]

No, I am not denying the value of rapidspin at all(and I am using Tentacruel anyway), what I am depreciating is MBlastoise itself. Excadrill and Starmie have their respective niche. But for Blastoise I don't see anything outside a dark pulse by far, yes it gets rid of spinblockers with ease, but defogger laugh at ghost switch in anyway.

This Dark Pulse threatens and KOes every single Ghost-type, while keeping your own hazards on the field intact, which is a niche in itself. Also, Mandibuzz is really the only Defogger to laugh at the Ghost switch-in, as neither Scizor or Lati@s want to see Aegislash step in. The more important thing about Mega-Blatoise is that it deters the Stealth Rock setters from coming back in (much like the other spinners, in fact) and setting them up again. Mega-Blastoise has a favorable matchup against every SR setter I can think of (and even some Spike setters); Scizor, Mandibuzz and Lati@s can't really do shit about Heatran or Tyranitar (respectively) from planting the rocks up in their faces. Once Mega-Blastoise spins, you can expect your field to stay clean for a good while.

 

[Swamp Link]

I suppose Umbreon is more viable than last gen in OU because the focus on Ghosts instead of Fighting types now. However, it really seems to be outclassed but a lot of other mons, especially Mandibuzz. Foul Play, Heal Bell, and Synchronize might be somewhat useful, but I feel like as a Foul Play user/Dark type wall it's outclassed by Mandibuzz and as a Heal Beller it's outclassed by Sylveon since it has a better defensive type. C+/B- is a tad too generous, it's most likely only a C.

Umbreon has advantages over Mandibuzz and Sylveon. While Mandibuzz has Defog and a pretty fast Taunt, Umbreon has more overall bulk, and offers more team support with Wish and Heal Bell. Other than Defog and a Fighting and Bug neutrality, which are admittedly quite nice, I'm not sure why I would use Mandibuzz over Umbreon. Umbreon also has much better physical bulk than Sylveon allowing it to handle a large amount of attackers from both sides of the spectrum, unlike Sylveon who struggles against physical attackers even when it's fully invested. It's disappointing when your physically defensive Sylveon still gets 2HKO'd by Psyshock.

 

[Photofluid]

This Dark Pulse threatens and KOes every single Ghost-type, while keeping your own hazards on the field intact, which is a niche in itself. Also, Mandibuzz is really the only Defogger to laugh at the Ghost switch-in, as neither Scizor or Lati@s want to see Aegislash step in. The more important thing about Mega-Blatoise is that it deters the Stealth Rock setters from coming back in (much like the other spinners, in fact) and setting them up again. Mega-Blastoise has a favorable matchup against every SR setter I can think of (and even some Spike setters); Scizor, Mandibuzz and Lati@s can't really do shit about Heatran or Tyranitar (respectively) from planting the rocks up in their faces. Once Mega-Blastoise spins, you can expect your field to stay clean for a good while.

Okay finally see some valid argument outside threatening spinblocker.

Concerning defog against ghost, my emphasis is that defog can not be spinblocked, not that defogger checks ghosts, hopefully this don't cause too much misunderstanding.

I see how Blastoise manage to maintain good field control, but than even with it, how much does it worth? I see how it helps with Zard and TF, but those things do not switch often to begin with, TF may have more room being uturn pivot but that means 4mss. It may do well against HO teams, but suicidal leads are handled by defog better. It is also important to know that EH is no longer as impactful as it was in the last gen. If you repeatly switch in just to get rid of the rocks, you are probably losing a bit too much momentum.

What really demand a second glance should therefore be the other worths of Blastoise, I don't want to get too mean so let's skip the mega slot issue just for now. But by far at least as a stall team player, I can safely conclude that it is a bad stalling candidate and also does not impose any threat to stall teams in general. I don't exactly know how it performs in other role though so I am not pretending to be professional. But I don't really think we need extra spinning discussions so please don't repeat the cycle and please get to something new.

Umbreon has advantages over Mandibuzz and Sylveon. While Mandibuzz has Defog and a pretty fast Taunt, Umbreon has more overall bulk, and offers more team support with Wish and Heal Bell. Other than Defog and a Fighting and Bug neutrality, which are admittedly quite nice, I'm not sure why I would use Mandibuzz over Umbreon. Umbreon also has much better physical bulk than Sylveon allowing it to handle a large amount of attackers from both sides of the spectrum, unlike Sylveon who struggles against physical attackers even when it's fully invested. It's disappointing when your physically defensive Sylveon still gets 2HKO'd by Psyshock.

I do think fight neutrality explains half the thing........

For clerics, I don't think I will use any cleric bar Blissey so I will skip it.

 

[TheMohZone]

MBlast is considered a horrible spinner in its own post as it possess zero longetivity and does not survive long, plus you have defog now.

Megastoise is amazing, honestly should be the mega of choice for Dnite/Volcarona teams. Dnite (Especially WP Dnite) and Volc love hazards on the other side yet hate them on their own side, so Blastoise is a perfect fit (Especially if your a madman and use both) getting rid of spinners with ease. honestly helping two of the most threatening Sweepers in the game set up easier (I can only think of Megaluke as a more unstoppable sweeper when they get going) and having good synergy with em helps. I mean Blastoise also deals with Mamoswine and Talonflame, two full stops to Dnite and Volcs sweeps respectively, it is quite literally the best poke for the job. its a very underrated threat IMO. that said, its hard to justify elsewhere. if you don't mind hazards, defog works, or if you can get Excadrill/Starmie in they would be your go toos but if you need a way to Guarantee rocks are gone whilst keeping your own, thats a valuable niche that Blastoise dominates in.

also would somebody mind explaining how Umbreon got an analysis? its a jack of all trades master of none, thats putting it nicely. i can't find a niche for it something else does better.

 

[Magnemite]

Umbreon is getting an OU analysis now betch. I nominate for A- give or take a little. You all need to realize 1. how bulky umbreon is, and 2. how amazing it is to not let both a) frail sweepers switch in and b) set up physical sweepers. Also wish support in a metagame

I realize that. The QC team changed their mind since I posted that. Anyway, Umbreon is still nowhere near A- rank. It certainly can't wall significant portions of the metagame. It can't even wall most of the metagame. It should certainly not be above Sylveon, which not only lacks Umbreon's awful Fighting and Bug weaknesses, but resists those two types, so Sylveon doesn't get forced out by Mega Lucario or Genesect nearly as often as Umbreon does, since they don't always use Steel STAB. Because it's worse than Sylveon, which is B rank, in just about every way, I think Umbreon deserves no higher than a C+ rank.