Hax is ranked at C+
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Did you completely miss my post? Like I said before, at +1, Poison Jab OHKOs every Fairy type in the tier, and Maeile dies to EQ. Fairies can't do anything to Haxorus. While he is easily revenge killed, the same is true for Garchomp and Dragonite. Most of your points aren't even that legit like the Dragon and Ground thing. It has Poison Jab FFS. The only thing at can wall it is Skarmory, and even then that's one of the top OU walls. And yes Yache Berry is viable on Chomp, but it costs him the item slot for a single hit and you might as well use a Sash or a Scarf. Multiscale is cool, but Mold Breaker rapes Dragonite. Haxorus is outclassed yes, but it can sweep thanks to its good typing (pure dragon = no quad weakness) and great coverage thanks to Poison Jab and Mold Breaker. That's one thing Haxy has over the other Dragons. Personally I think Haxorus is the Staraptor of OU Dragons, outclassed yes, but has enough of a niche to kick ass. Which is why it should be the same rank as Staraptor IMO, B-
But you didn't account Mawile's Intimidate:
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 216-256 (78.8 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
then
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 180-212 (59.6 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Mega Mawile still beats it, and you're really making Haxorus seem like a god, I've never used it, but could you possibly list flaws instead of amazing all-around points, as the way you're saying it now you make it appear to be an A Rank threat, which it is not. Could anybody provide the flaws of Haxorus and such?
I'll explain how Haxorus works because I originally brought it up and did actually want it at B-. Haxorus's two main flaws is its lack of bulk which makes set-up difficult and its poor coverage as it cannot break through common steels in the tier. The positives of Haxorus is its versatility as it can run Swords Dance Wallbreaking, Taunt Dragon Dance, Poison Jab Dragon Dance, Scarf and Double Dance. Another very important positive is Mold Breaker an ability that allows Haxorus to like Mega-Gyarados break through common unaware cores, actually Haxorus is very comparable to Mega-Gyarados. They both have poor movepools with Mono-STABs (Bite doesn't count) but have merit in their ability to break through common walls in the tier. The positive of Haxorus is that it doesn't take up that mega slot allowing Haxorus to smash unaware cores so Char-X or D-nite can clean up. Haxorus has so much raw power as well as the strongest psuedo-legendary Dragon at 147 attack (Charizard-X is stronger on contact moves though) which allows it to be decent at wallbreaking even when it doesn't set up.
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Mega Venusaur: 169-199 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Overall Haxorus's versatility, ability to smash unaware cores while not taking up a mega slot allows it to fulfill a unique and viable role in the metagame but his low bulk which makes it hard to set up along with its poor coverage makes me think he should be B- and no higher.
Haxorus may not take up a "mega slot" but it does takes up a slot that a more aformeited Dragon could fill. Haxorus is too slow,mono typing, and it's ability is outclassed by Mega-Gyarados.
That being said Haxorus is easily outsped, revenge killed, and generally lacks staying prowess to set up. C+ is befitting.
That being said Haxorus is easily outsped, revenge killed, and generally lacks staying prowess to set up. C+ is befitting.
I don't necessarily disagree with the ranking you're suggesting, but I don't agree with what your saying about Haxorus at all. Haxorus being "too slow" is funny considering it's only a few points slower than Zard and is faster than Kyurem-B and Dragonite. The mono-Dragon thing is also odd since the aforementioned Dragonite and Kyurem both would love to not have their Flying or Ice types, because it makes them weak to Rocks. It's ability isn't outclassed by Mega Gyarados either since Mega Gyarados can't pair with Mega Tyranitar or Mega Charizard X like Haxorus can.
Also, what's outspeeding +1 Haxorus (although I prefer SD)? Let's say you run Adamant on Haxorus. Scarf Excadrill is the best Scarf Pokemon, but that can't beat Haxorus. Scarf Landorus-T beats it sure, but it also beats Zard X so that doesn't make much sense to me either. Mega Gyarados gets outsped by Mega Manectric at +1 but that doesn't take away from it's viability.
I don't know, I have no problem with Haxorus staying where it is, but I just don't think your reasoning is sound.
In all honesty, haxorus has lost it's main purpose this gen, mainly because of the fact that so many others outclassed it solidly. Dragonite can take a hit with multiscale and fire off dragon claw + extremespeed, charizard x annihilates everything at +1, and gyarados has a very bulky dragon dance for a Sweeper. Also the fact that it lacks any signifigant coverage without mold breaker. While I do agree, that the mono typing is a blessing (unless dragonite is in the rain with hurricane), I just don't believe haxorus has a purpose that isn't outclassed this gen.
First thing Mold Breaker Ground plus Dragon is actually very solid neutral coverage with only two OU viable resists/immunities: Togekiss and Skarmory. Haxorus is mostly meant to be paired with other Dragons in this regard the comparison to Staraptor is actually very valid as Haxorus can break through other dragons counters as MB Haxorus can KO things like Quagsire for Zard-X or Heatran for Dragonite lacking Earthquake. While Haxorus is a little worse at fulfilling his role as Staraptor Haxorus is able to work on its own and really isn't completely outclassed because unlike Dragonite or Zard-X, Haxorus doesn't require the same amount of support to be effective and for teams that need a dragon-type sweeper and cannot afford to have said sweeper depend on SR being gone to be effective gives Haxorus a unique niche even when not paired with other Dragons.
There are multiple problems with your statement.
The first is that the Double/Triple/4Drag strategy is no longer viable in OU. You're just begging for one of the S/A tier Steels or Fairies to come in and set-up in your face. This is compounded by the fact that Haxorus's game plan relies heavily on Outrage to overpower the bulky offensive mons who could otherwise take it out, and Outrage is just too risky to use with Fairies being so good in OU right now.
The sceond is that Dragonite an Zard-X's Stealth Rock weakness is not so much of a weakness now. It is relatively trivial to fit in a good Spinner/Defogger in teams with those guys, and finding an opportunity to Spin/Defog is relatively easy in the current OU environment.
Thirdly, Haxorus still finds itself too easily checked and countered in the current OU environment. It's basically been reduced to a Kyurem-B that can't go Special/Mixed and without reliable recovery, except Kyurem-B doesn't require another Dragon on his team to be effective. It is very one-dimensional and predictable, and having him on your team increases your vulnerability to the Ice/Fairy moves that is practically required on all OU teams now to counter the top threats. Haxy just takes too much collateral damage now that everyone is packing counters to Zard-X, Dragonite, Kyurem-B or Latios.
That makes Rotom-W less predictable than stuff like Chansey, Mega Manectric and Mega Pinsir, who literally have one viable set with one or two move slashes at most.
Rotom-W can also be specially defensive, can run Specs or ChestoRest. To say Rotom-W is the "most predictable" pokemon in the meta is downright absurd.
Fairies actually hae a beneficial side effect to Outrage as they merely stop the attack and Haxorus stops being locked into the attack.
Halcyon, quick thing- Kyurem-B still love s/d it's ice typing because it lets it break mega venusaur, and as it was and still is a very threatening wallbreaker. breaking mega saur was important to it's previous A+ ranking back when mega venusaur was S because it could break at that time, the best wall in the meta, proving it as an amazing breaker. (it's still A+ in my opinion, but I admit, practically everything on offense carries something to counter-counter it)
As far as Im concerned, gyarados pulls off a better mold breaker taunt, but seeing as how he takes up a mega slot (although a very good one at that) and the fact that taunt is a wasted moveslot most of the time, I can see a small niche that he has, but not as a dragon dancer as others have said.
venomoth is now bl. it should probably join gorebyss in c- rank
Now that Venomoth is banned to the forsaken land of BL it would be time to place him on the viability ranking. Venotmoth faces a lot of competition from Volcarona as a Quiver Dance user but it has it's niches over Volcarona. First of all it has Sleep Powder to put a what used to be counter to sleep and it can also get free set up opportunities this way. Second of all it has much better abilities in Tinted Lens, Shield dust and Wonder Skin. Shield Dust and Wonder Skin are alright but Tinted Lens is the real seller here as it allowed Venomoth to use a mono attacking set with Bug Buzz. A simple set of Sleep Powder, Roost, Quiver Dance and Bug Buzz is an effective set that can be quite scary once it gets going with Quiver Dances. However the main reason to use Venomoth over Volcarona is Baton Pass. Being able to pass Quiver Dances to some of the scariest sweepers / wallbreakers in the tier is an incredible niche and it can sweep unprepared teams with ease. In fact here are some of the Pokemon that greatly benefit from Quiverpass:
Alakazam and Mega Alakazam might have problems taking a hit on the switch but the special defense boost can help it in that regard. They may be weak to priority but that is about the only way to take out a +1 / +2 Alakazam or Mega Alakazam.
While Charizard X doesn't benefit much from Quiver Dance Charizard Y is a whole other story. The two also have decent type synergy so that can help. Watch out for Stone Edge though.
Basically the same as Alakazam and it's mega evolution but Magic Bounce can block phasing attempts which is something to note.
While they don't have great type synergy together Gengar still really benefits from the special attack and speed boosts Venomoth gives. Gengar also resists most common priority and can get around Sucker Punch with Substitute.
Again frail but really takes advantage of the Speed and Special attack boosts and can pull of a sweep.
Defensive Heatran appreciates the special defense boost and offensive Heatran can make up for it's middling speed and get an even higher special attack stat.
Just like everyone benefits from the speed and special attack boosts. It doesn't need it as much however as it also learns Calm Mind himself.
Has Calm Mind itself but the speed boost allows it to outspeed stuff like Greninja and some scarfers at +1.
This list is alright but these aren't the only ones since nearly every Pokemon at least benefits from one boosted stat. Other good teammates include Hydreigon, Chandelure, Landorus and just any special sweeper in general. Venomoth can give teams insane support without needing too much support itself which makes it a great Pokemon. It can also use Sleep Powder to cancel it's potential counters like Sylveon, Zapdos and Togekiss. Many teams often don't pack more than one counter to Venomoth either which makes it even better. It's Poison Bug typing also helps it set up Quiver Dance with useful 4x Fighting resistance and it also resists various other common types like Fairy, Bug and Grass.
However Venomoth does have some problems that prevent it from being too good. First of all while it's main competitor Volcarona doesn't have Baton Pass it does have much higher stats and can set up Quiver Dances with more ease. Venomoth has Sleep Powder to make setting up easier but it doesn't have the bulk Volcarona has. Also without set up Venomoth has poor stats. Second while it's typing has some nice resistances like the previously mentioned Fighting type. However that typing also gives it weaknesses to common types like Fire, Bug and Rock which are everywhere ( It helps that Flying spam died down though ). Venomoth can also be difficult to switch in against something sometimes with it's bad bulk.
However with all of that considered I think C+ would be the prefect rank for Venomoth:
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.
Venomoth fits this description well as it does need a small bit of support mainly for hazard removal and wearing down it's counters. Outside of it's niche of learning Baton Pass which Volcarona doesn't Volcarona also completely outclasses it as a Quiver Dance sweeper since it's stats are much higher and it can set up with more ease. However due to Venomoth's unique strenghts and crazy team support I think it fits in C+.
Venomoth for C+
This list is alright but these aren't the only ones since nearly every Pokemon at least benefits from one boosted stat. Other good teammates include Hydreigon, Chandelure, Landorus and just any special sweeper in general. Venomoth can give teams insane support without needing too much support itself which makes it a great Pokemon. It can also use Sleep Powder to cancel it's potential counters like Sylveon, Zapdos and Togekiss. Many teams often don't pack more than one counter to Venomoth either which makes it even better. It's Poison Bug typing also helps it set up Quiver Dance with useful 4x Fighting resistance and it also resists various other common types like Fairy, Bug and Grass.
However Venomoth does have some problems that prevent it from being too good. First of all while it's main competitor Volcarona doesn't have Baton Pass it does have much higher stats and can set up Quiver Dances with more ease. Venomoth has Sleep Powder to make setting up easier but it doesn't have the bulk Volcarona has. Also without set up Venomoth has poor stats. Second while it's typing has some nice resistances like the previously mentioned Fighting type. However that typing also gives it weaknesses to common types like Fire, Bug and Rock which are everywhere ( It helps that Flying spam died down though ). Venomoth can also be difficult to switch in against something sometimes with it's bad bulk.
However with all of that considered I think C+ would be the prefect rank for Venomoth:
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.
Venomoth fits this description well as it does need a small bit of support mainly for hazard removal and wearing down it's counters. Outside of it's niche of learning Baton Pass which Volcarona doesn't Volcarona also completely outclasses it as a Quiver Dance sweeper since it's stats are much higher and it can set up with more ease. However due to Venomoth's unique strenghts and crazy team support I think it fits in C+.
Venomoth for C+
Now that Venomoth is banned to the forsaken land of BL it would be time to place him on the viability ranking. Venotmoth faces a lot of competition from Volcarona as a Quiver Dance user but it has it's niches over Volcarona. First of all it has Sleep Powder to put a what used to be counter to sleep and it can also get free set up opportunities this way. Second of all it has much better abilities in Tinted Lens, Shield dust and Wonder Skin. Shield Dust and Wonder Skin are alright but Tinted Lens is the real seller here as it allowed Venomoth to use a mono attacking set with Bug Buzz. A simple set of Sleep Powder, Roost, Quiver Dance and Bug Buzz is an effective set that can be quite scary once it gets going with Quiver Dances. However the main reason to use Venomoth over Volcarona is Baton Pass. Being able to pass Quiver Dances to some of the scariest sweepers / wallbreakers in the tier is an incredible niche and it can sweep unprepared teams with ease. In fact here are some of the Pokemon that greatly benefit from Quiverpass:
Alakazam and Mega Alakazam might have problems taking a hit on the switch but the special defense boost can help it in that regard. They may be weak to priority but that is about the only way to take out a +1 / +2 Alakazam or Mega Alakazam.
While Charizard X doesn't benefit much from Quiver Dance Charizard Y is a whole other story. The two also have decent type synergy so that can help. Watch out for Stone Edge though.
Basically the same as Alakazam and it's mega evolution but Magic Bounce can block phasing attempts which is something to note.
While they don't have great type synergy together Gengar still really benefits from the special attack and speed boosts Venomoth gives. Gengar also resists most common priority and can get around Sucker Punch with Substitute.
Again frail but really takes advantage of the Speed and Special attack boosts and can pull of a sweep.
Defensive Heatran appreciates the special defense boost and offensive Heatran can make up for it's middling speed and get an even higher special attack stat.
Just like everyone benefits from the speed and special attack boosts. It doesn't need it as much however as it also learns Calm Mind himself.
Has Calm Mind itself but the speed boost allows it to outspeed stuff like Greninja and some scarfers at +1.
This list is alright but these aren't the only ones since nearly every Pokemon at least benefits from one boosted stat. Other good teammates include Hydreigon, Chandelure, Landorus and just any special sweeper in general. Venomoth can give teams insane support without needing too much support itself which makes it a great Pokemon. It can also use Sleep Powder to cancel it's potential counters like Sylveon, Zapdos and Togekiss. Many teams often don't pack more than one counter to Venomoth either which makes it even better. It's Poison Bug typing also helps it set up Quiver Dance with useful 4x Fighting resistance and it also resists various other common types like Fairy, Bug and Grass.
However Venomoth does have some problems that prevent it from being too good. First of all while it's main competitor Volcarona doesn't have Baton Pass it does have much higher stats and can set up Quiver Dances with more ease. Venomoth has Sleep Powder to make setting up easier but it doesn't have the bulk Volcarona has. Also without set up Venomoth has poor stats. Second while it's typing has some nice resistances like the previously mentioned Fighting type. However that typing also gives it weaknesses to common types like Fire, Bug and Rock which are everywhere ( It helps that Flying spam died down though ). Venomoth can also be difficult to switch in against something sometimes with it's bad bulk.
However with all of that considered I think C+ would be the prefect rank for Venomoth:
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.
Venomoth fits this description well as it does need a small bit of support mainly for hazard removal and wearing down it's counters. Outside of it's niche of learning Baton Pass which Volcarona doesn't Volcarona also completely outclasses it as a Quiver Dance sweeper since it's stats are much higher and it can set up with more ease. However due to Venomoth's unique strenghts and crazy team support I think it fits in C+.
Venomoth for C+
You also might want to add landorus on that list as I can see him benefitting from the quiver dance bonuses seeing as how powerful he is with life orb + sheer force.
Edit: nevermind I read the rest of it.
Venomoth is currently outclassed as a QuiverPasser by Smeargle, who can run Spore or Dark Void to get that opportunity to QD. Just because something is in BL doesn't make it viable in OU. I agree that until the impending BP judgment happens people will be too prepared for BP, negatively affecting "fair" Baton Passers like Quiver Dance Venomoth or Swords Dance Scolipede.
If it's BL, it has to be ranked. Once the BP nerf happens, quick pass will become more viable again. Now, I see it as C-, but sooner or later I can foresee it and Gorebyss moving up.
Venomoth has Sleep Powder and while it isn't as reliable as Spore it does the job. Unlike Smeargle Venomoth can also take advantage of Quiver Dance himself and Tinted Lens is a great ability.
Why would we put Venomoth in a higher tier than Gorebyss, when SmashPassing is arguably much more broken than QDpass?Now that Venomoth is banned to the forsaken land of BL it would be time to place him on the viability ranking. Venotmoth faces a lot of competition from Volcarona as a Quiver Dance user but it has it's niches over Volcarona. First of all it has Sleep Powder to put a what used to be counter to sleep and it can also get free set up opportunities this way. Second of all it has much better abilities in Tinted Lens, Shield dust and Wonder Skin. Shield Dust and Wonder Skin are alright but Tinted Lens is the real seller here as it allowed Venomoth to use a mono attacking set with Bug Buzz. A simple set of Sleep Powder, Roost, Quiver Dance and Bug Buzz is an effective set that can be quite scary once it gets going with Quiver Dances. However the main reason to use Venomoth over Volcarona is Baton Pass. Being able to pass Quiver Dances to some of the scariest sweepers / wallbreakers in the tier is an incredible niche and it can sweep unprepared teams with ease. In fact here are some of the Pokemon that greatly benefit from Quiverpass:
Alakazam and Mega Alakazam might have problems taking a hit on the switch but the special defense boost can help it in that regard. They may be weak to priority but that is about the only way to take out a +1 / +2 Alakazam or Mega Alakazam.
While Charizard X doesn't benefit much from Quiver Dance Charizard Y is a whole other story. The two also have decent type synergy so that can help. Watch out for Stone Edge though.
Basically the same as Alakazam and it's mega evolution but Magic Bounce can block phasing attempts which is something to note.
While they don't have great type synergy together Gengar still really benefits from the special attack and speed boosts Venomoth gives. Gengar also resists most common priority and can get around Sucker Punch with Substitute.
Again frail but really takes advantage of the Speed and Special attack boosts and can pull of a sweep.
Defensive Heatran appreciates the special defense boost and offensive Heatran can make up for it's middling speed and get an even higher special attack stat.
Just like everyone benefits from the speed and special attack boosts. It doesn't need it as much however as it also learns Calm Mind himself.
Has Calm Mind itself but the speed boost allows it to outspeed stuff like Greninja and some scarfers at +1.
This list is alright but these aren't the only ones since nearly every Pokemon at least benefits from one boosted stat. Other good teammates include Hydreigon, Chandelure, Landorus and just any special sweeper in general. Venomoth can give teams insane support without needing too much support itself which makes it a great Pokemon. It can also use Sleep Powder to cancel it's potential counters like Sylveon, Zapdos and Togekiss. Many teams often don't pack more than one counter to Venomoth either which makes it even better. It's Poison Bug typing also helps it set up Quiver Dance with useful 4x Fighting resistance and it also resists various other common types like Fairy, Bug and Grass.
However Venomoth does have some problems that prevent it from being too good. First of all while it's main competitor Volcarona doesn't have Baton Pass it does have much higher stats and can set up Quiver Dances with more ease. Venomoth has Sleep Powder to make setting up easier but it doesn't have the bulk Volcarona has. Also without set up Venomoth has poor stats. Second while it's typing has some nice resistances like the previously mentioned Fighting type. However that typing also gives it weaknesses to common types like Fire, Bug and Rock which are everywhere ( It helps that Flying spam died down though ). Venomoth can also be difficult to switch in against something sometimes with it's bad bulk.
However with all of that considered I think C+ would be the prefect rank for Venomoth:
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.
Venomoth fits this description well as it does need a small bit of support mainly for hazard removal and wearing down it's counters. Outside of it's niche of learning Baton Pass which Volcarona doesn't Volcarona also completely outclasses it as a Quiver Dance sweeper since it's stats are much higher and it can set up with more ease. However due to Venomoth's unique strenghts and crazy team support I think it fits in C+.
Venomoth for C+
That is true but somewhere around C seems like a good rank for Venomoth.
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