he shouldn't have to specify; unaware is better than MG in most cases
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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he shouldn't have to specify; unaware is better than MG in most cases
Not really, depends greatly on the job you want it to do. Unaware can set up on mons like DDNite and sweep through offense pretty easily. MG lets it set up on Most of stall and beat status,
we get there both viable, but he said unaware is viable in more cases. everything you said is definitely true. However, HO is much more used than stall. There will be more opportunities to setup on other sweepers as compared to walls, some of which have whirlwind anyway (skarm and hippo). Also, weather (sand) isn't as much an issue bc its gone after 5 turns.
I think part of the reason why people are underrating Clefable is because they are either confused about its roles (plural, because Clefable is very very versatile) or turned off by its stats. For those who want to learn more, go read Clefable's Gen VI analysis - there are 4 sets listed there, and I'll summarize why they're so good here.
To address the former, Clefable's abilities, typing, and movepool give it at least two very distinct roles in the meta:
Magic Guard lets it become a near nightmare for Stall to break, since its immunity to Status and Hazards, reliable recovery in Soft-boiled, and more-than-decent defenses mean it can set-up in front of their usual walls and actually outstall them barring a Taunt or Whirlwind/Roar/Dragon Tail (both of which are relatively uncommon on OU's walls - they prefer to phaze with status moves). Yes, Clefable's Magic Guard Calm Mind set is going to get walled by Heatran no matter what, but there are a lot of partners out there who can deal with Heatran and who have great synergy with Clefable. (Landorus-I, Charizard-X, Keldeo and Gyarados are just four S/A tier examples that come to mind). Life Orb Magic Guard Clefable also makes for a tough tank/pivot that can switch on predicted status move or on bulky attackers and either wreck them with a Moonblast/Fire Blast or stop their sweep with a Thunder Wave. (Aside: OMG I found another offensive pivot.) Magic Guard is NOT worse than Unaware, it just works very very differently.
Unaware, on the other hand, makes Clefable one of Stall's best assets against HO, since Clefable can come in on the Set-up Sweepers that HO/Offense loves to run, negate all their boosts, and start setting up in their face/heal the rest of the team. Clefable's Moonblast is again a terrific asset here that will force the common Dragon-type Dragon Dancers to switch out, if they weren't already switching out when Clefable switched in. Unaware Clefable can even be used on Offense/HO as their bulky-revenge killer/"sweep stopper" to check opposing Offensive team's Sweepers.
Yes, Clefable's Fairy typing means Fire, Steel, and Poison-types are problematic for it, but it is extremely easy to fit an Earthquake user or a Ground-type on all teams to deal with those, and the resistance to the Knock-off, Pursuits, and Sucker Punches that plague OU is more than a welcome trade-off (in addition to the immunity to Dragon and the Fighting+U-turn resistance).
But really, we all know that Clefable's stats are underwhelming at best, but they are good enough for Clefable to be a great performer in OU. An unexpected silver lining from all this is that Clefable tends to be EV'd in a multitude of directions, so that even when you know Clefable's Ability AND Movepool, you might not know whether you're facing a Physically Defensive, Specially Defensive, or Special Attacking Clefable until you've traded attacks.
So yes, Clefable totally deserves A+ status, and its presence in the OU meta (along with the rest of its Fairy-brethren) keeps Dragon types and Dark type mons honest. I can't argue for it being S (Clefable's stats are just way too meh to make it an S tier mon) but it really is good and underrated by a lot of people in this thread (who are hyping much much worse mons that Clefable outclasses, IMHO).
To address the former, Clefable's abilities, typing, and movepool give it at least two very distinct roles in the meta:
Magic Guard lets it become a near nightmare for Stall to break, since its immunity to Status and Hazards, reliable recovery in Soft-boiled, and more-than-decent defenses mean it can set-up in front of their usual walls and actually outstall them barring a Taunt or Whirlwind/Roar/Dragon Tail (both of which are relatively uncommon on OU's walls - they prefer to phaze with status moves). Yes, Clefable's Magic Guard Calm Mind set is going to get walled by Heatran no matter what, but there are a lot of partners out there who can deal with Heatran and who have great synergy with Clefable. (Landorus-I, Charizard-X, Keldeo and Gyarados are just four S/A tier examples that come to mind). Life Orb Magic Guard Clefable also makes for a tough tank/pivot that can switch on predicted status move or on bulky attackers and either wreck them with a Moonblast/Fire Blast or stop their sweep with a Thunder Wave. (Aside: OMG I found another offensive pivot.) Magic Guard is NOT worse than Unaware, it just works very very differently.
Unaware, on the other hand, makes Clefable one of Stall's best assets against HO, since Clefable can come in on the Set-up Sweepers that HO/Offense loves to run, negate all their boosts, and start setting up in their face/heal the rest of the team. Clefable's Moonblast is again a terrific asset here that will force the common Dragon-type Dragon Dancers to switch out, if they weren't already switching out when Clefable switched in. Unaware Clefable can even be used on Offense/HO as their bulky-revenge killer/"sweep stopper" to check opposing Offensive team's Sweepers.
Yes, Clefable's Fairy typing means Fire, Steel, and Poison-types are problematic for it, but it is extremely easy to fit an Earthquake user or a Ground-type on all teams to deal with those, and the resistance to the Knock-off, Pursuits, and Sucker Punches that plague OU is more than a welcome trade-off (in addition to the immunity to Dragon and the Fighting+U-turn resistance).
But really, we all know that Clefable's stats are underwhelming at best, but they are good enough for Clefable to be a great performer in OU. An unexpected silver lining from all this is that Clefable tends to be EV'd in a multitude of directions, so that even when you know Clefable's Ability AND Movepool, you might not know whether you're facing a Physically Defensive, Specially Defensive, or Special Attacking Clefable until you've traded attacks.
So yes, Clefable totally deserves A+ status, and its presence in the OU meta (along with the rest of its Fairy-brethren) keeps Dragon types and Dark type mons honest. I can't argue for it being S (Clefable's stats are just way too meh to make it an S tier mon) but it really is good and underrated by a lot of people in this thread (who are hyping much much worse mons that Clefable outclasses, IMHO).
I meant that MG Clefable can fit on offensive or Sand offense teams better than Unaware and that its never safe to assume its Unaware.
1. a last resort spore user for a sweeper
2. complete stop to bisharp and mostly belly drum azumarill
3. good type coveredge and pairs well with other sweepers such as mega zard x because it destroys quag
4. can kill talon and mega pinsir with a rock tomb from sash
5. solid priority with mach punch and a good stab with bullet seed
People are now starting to realise how good this thing is, and tourney usage has soared to further prove this point. Now that the meta has calmed down it is a great choice for team building aswell as the fact that this thing should be taken into consideration when team building, 100% accurate sleep good attack and typing is no joke. This thing is a lot better than normal gyarados and gliscor and can easily perform at the level of pokemon such as manaphy, mandibuzz and zapdos.
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First off, Clefable spA is 95 not 85, it got boosted this gen. Second, Chansey doesn't even fit on offensive teams like Clefable does, and the amount of support that she provides during a match is invaluable, people should try using her before trying to lower her rank, she can heal, check set-up sweepers and sweep by herself late game all with a single set (of course she would probably not do all that in a single match, but the fact that she can opt for different roles depending on the match is what makes her great), and that's ONE set, she's versatile as fuck, she can run a lot of options depending on her team.
Clefable's stats are too poor for it to deserve A+ (imo). The offensive LO set is the best in my opinion since it can catch the opponents off-guard, but even then it's just too weak. The CM set has trouble setting up, the Wish set is done better by Chansey/Blissey. It's just too frail, too weak and too slow.
Pokemon are not ranked by their stats, but by how good they are in the meta.
Like seriously, why are we still talking about Clefable.
Like seriously, why are we still talking about Clefable.
The only common thing that carries Roar is Heatran (removed by Dugtrio) and since the team is built around CP Clefable (calling it 'shitfable' is just juvenile lol) it is usually the last Pokémon standing anyway. Taunt is generally carried by Deoxys and Terrakion (trapped and eliminated in the early game), Taunt Skarmory is overwhelmed by Charge Beam, and I run Mega Charizard X to take advantage of the Will-O-Wisp Taunters Mew and Sableye. The trapping strategy is pretty simple, Dugtrio removes Steels, Gothitelle removes Poisons, Pursuit trap Ditto, Gothitelle and some other Tricksters. Not much can break through Clefable after that. Sometimes there's just too much for them to handle but most of my losses were just people scoring lucky crits on Clefable.
The bottom line is, if CP Clefable really sucked I wouldn't have got to 1850 Elo with it. Clefable and Charizard were literally the only significant firepower I had on that team.
Chansey isn't set up bait at all, unless it's played wrong. It comes in, sponges an otherwise threatening attack, Thunder Waves or Seismic Tosses whatever comes in and then you switch to a counter. Not many things in the metagame that enjoy setting up will risk paralysis for it. If the switch is something Chansey literally can't touch then you just double switch out, but you've still saved the rest of your team from having to try and stomach that LO Greninja Hydro Pump or Latios Draco Meteor. In hyper offence people don't have a sponge for those kinds of moves, except maybe a quickly worn down Azumarill or something, so they literally just end up sacking their Pokémon. Having something on the team to just shrug them off is a massive relief.
I think you mean pro's
I second that. I personally prefer the Life Orb set with Spore + 3 Attacks, because Focus Sash is neutralized by rocks, and I don't like to use pokemon who require rocks out of the field to function.
Life Orb, on the other hand, gives it a brutal offensive power. You can, for example, OHKO Greninja with Mach Punch. Also Bullet Seed is a very powerful move with an average 170 BP, and Rock Tomb hits a lot of things hard even at neutral damage, while making switch ins tricky, with the speed reducing and the coverage.
Once you sucessfully switch Breloom into a slower pokemon (which can be done by either revenge killing or switching into Earthquakes, for example), you get a free Spore. Unless they have a sleep immune pokemon in the team, that is. But for this reason, Breloom is a pokemon you can always save for later, when the sleep immune things have been dealt with. And it checks Ferrothorn and Goodra, so not all the anti-sleep pokemon work against it. Only Mandibuzz, Venusaur and Gliscor can do the job, and Mandi still loses if it switches into Rock Tomb with stealth rocks on.
And when you get a free Spore, the amount of pressure you put into your opponent is enormous.
The sash set is truly terrifying to face now as a free switch will almost guarantee a kill and with spore Breloom can work around Its counters. Not even Bird spam is safe from sash loom thanks to SporeTomb.
There's also the poison heal set, which IMO, is really underrated. It makes an even better switch in to Bisharp, since it doesn't give a damn about losing its item, doesn't care about anything standard Rotom-W can do, and can even beat out certain Aegislash variants.
If 1850 ELO is your sole proof of a set working then it's probably not very good... It's basically crit/setup (or status) fodder.
Nominating Haxorus for B-/B Rank
As one of the premier OU threats of gen 5, Haxorus has fallen from grace along with Jirachi, Metagross, Salamance ETC. despite the fact that Haxy has one distinct advantage over other dragons: Poison Jab (Yes, Garchonp has it too, but he has 4MSS so I don't count it)
With Poison Jab, Haxorus has the niche of Dragon that can kill Fairy types really damn effectively. Don't believe me? Look at these calcs (Adamant Dragon Dance set, assumes you've DDd already, and has a Life Orb)
Ya see? Every relevant fairy in OU is OHKOd by Poison Jab (Or Earthquake in Mawiles case). This puts Haxy at a distinct advantage over his closest rival Garchomp (And Kyurem Black to an extent, but Cube is more of a wall breaker than a sweeper). Of course Skarmory walls Haxorus to hell and back, but considering how hard Skarmory is to kill, it's more a testament to Skarmory's Defensive capabilities than anything.
TL;DR, Overall, Haxorus has a decent niche over Cube and Garchomp, and I personally think it should be B-/B (Like Staraptor, it's outclassed in some ways, better in others)
As one of the premier OU threats of gen 5, Haxorus has fallen from grace along with Jirachi, Metagross, Salamance ETC. despite the fact that Haxy has one distinct advantage over other dragons: Poison Jab (Yes, Garchonp has it too, but he has 4MSS so I don't count it)
With Poison Jab, Haxorus has the niche of Dragon that can kill Fairy types really damn effectively. Don't believe me? Look at these calcs (Adamant Dragon Dance set, assumes you've DDd already, and has a Life Orb)
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Clefable: 395-465 (100.2 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 494-582 (122.2 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 424-499 (139.4 - 164.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 426-504 (113.9 - 134.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 494-582 (122.2 - 144%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 424-499 (139.4 - 164.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 426-504 (113.9 - 134.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
TL;DR, Overall, Haxorus has a decent niche over Cube and Garchomp, and I personally think it should be B-/B (Like Staraptor, it's outclassed in some ways, better in others)
Garchomp can literally do the same thing with it's swords dance/stone edge/EQ/dragon claw set, between STAB earthquake, and stone edge, it literally OHKOs every OU fairy after a boost, barring unaware clef, which is easily 2HKOd.
Can it? Well that's just made Haxorus worse :/
Still, Haxy only has a 2x weakness to Ice at least...
Goddammit I forgot about EdgeQuake... Still, Haxorus can make a good alternative of you're looking for a good Dragon Dancer (That isn't 4x weak to ice.) his power if not to be understated. I guess...
Rotom Wash is about the most predictable pokemon in the meta: it's either running scarf or physically defensive. It's got a pitifully shallow movepool, and so the greatest amount of "unpredictability" it can achieve is a rare hidden power- fire for ferro, grass for gastro, or ice to surprise dragons. It should also be noted that a 2x supereffective Hidden Power is only marginally more damaging than a resisted hydro pump with the HP nerf, so this is a niche option at best. Rotom-W has many advantages, but unpredictability is not one of them.
Hax is a decent scarf/band user still. It is able to kill a dragonite in one hit with outrage on a scarf set, but so can kyube. Its niche is in the fact that a purely physical scarf set is more viable on him than kyube. However, this is not nearly enough to make it b-rank in my honest opinion.
It was the primary win condition on a successful ladder team and it got the job done, what other proof is needed? It wasn't status fodder because I ran Rest (in fact people wasting turns using Thunder Wave and Toxic on me was often what made boosting up so easy), and I don't really support the notion of crit fodder because in the average game it would take far fewer than 16 turns to set up to sweeping range, hence the odds were stacked heavily in my favour.
Also, by recovering early and often I could mitigate the critical hit risk since most neutral critical hits would only do 60-70% anyway. As an example:
252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Clefable on a critical hit: 217-256 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Only exceptionally powerful moves like Mega Pinsir's Return and Mega Charizard Y's Fire Blast can bring a set up CP Clefable into KO range with just one crit, otherwise I could just Rest up.
This replay shows a win with CP Clefable despite Taunt, paralysis, Mold Breaker set-up, crits and generally awful hax: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114578340
Honestly I don't even really see the point of ranking Haxorus. The only thing it does differently from Garchomp and Kyu-B is Double Dance, and it doesn't even do that well. Mold Breaker is nice, but Dragon + Ground coverage is not as good as it was in past gens. The 2x weakness to Ice versus 4x really loses value when you remember that Yache Berry (completely viable on Garchomp) and Multiscale Dragonite exist. It's the epitome of outclassed, and this gen did nothing but brush another layer of dirt over its grave with the addition of powerful revenge killers and the fairy typing.
K thanks Blame Truth.
Meanwhile you could not beg crits and just use Magic Guard Calm Mind with Stored Power and achieve the same thing without resorting to Charge Beam .-.
Anyway, as for Haxorus, it's actually got quite the niche over Garchomp and Dragonite in that it has access to Mold Breaker and that let's it beat Quagsire and Clefable, which makes it the perfect partner to Pokemon like Mega Ttar and Mega Charizard X because it breaks down their counters better than other dragons and doesn't require rapid spin or Defog support like Dragonite does.
I don't know who Blame Truth is and this argument doesn't actually work
If I used Magic Guard I could be beaten by bulky Swords Dance, Nasty Plot and Tail Glow users. Also I would be far easier to revenge kill with common moves like Iron Head. Calm Mind sets can't tank physical hits anywhere near as well as CP sets can. See the replay I posted where my opponent attempts to revenge kill me with a Choice Band Crawdaunt but deals less than 40% - CM Clefable would be destroyed by a Pokémon with this kind of physical power
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Clefable: 302-356 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also it doesn't really beg crits any more than CM Clefable does, it only requires a couple more turns to set up on average, and unlike CM Clefable a physical crit isn't basically guaranteed to put me into KO range after set up.
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