I think Zapdos is fine where it is in A-. I always think of it as being in the same league as Skarmory, Mandibuzz and Latias because they all have different properties that fit teams based on what the other members are, but share the common trait of being able to be bulky defoggers. Eg, Mandibuzz has more bulk, a better ability and is generally a lot better at dealing with most physical sweepers like Dragonite, Charizard X (who can both switch in on Zapdos fairly easily and set up on it) has Taunt to shut slower things down and Knock Off to annoy/cripple things, but Zapdos is faster and has much more of a direct offensive presence, and unlike Lati it doesn't have an annoying Pursuit weakness and isn't complete Aegislash bait, so there are always valid reasons to choose it over other things out there. It's also usable on BP teams as well as an additional perk.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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I only brought up two scarfers that revenge kill because I thought that would be enough to convince people. Scarf Latios and Scarf Kyurem-B also revenge kill +2 Mega Ampharos.
Mega Ampharos can sweep through its checks and counters if they are weakened and eliminated, but what can't? We might as well raise the viability of every Pokemon that can sweep with its checks and counters gone under that argument. The fact that Mega Ampharos needs significant support to sweep is a reason to keep it at C+. Most teams can carry a check or counter to Mega Ampharos without even trying. You can't say the same about Zard-X.
RestTalk works on Suicune because it has Calm Mind and it is only weak to one good offensive type. Gyarados has better defensive typing, Intimidate, phazing capability, and Leftovers which Mega Ampharos does not have. Bulky Pokemon like Snorlax, Mega Aggron, and Rhyperior can use RestTalk for Recovery, but that hasn't caused them to rise in viability because they do not have the other moves and abilities needed to use it well. Neither does Mega Ampharos.
I agree that RestTalk Mega Garchomp sucks. But like I said in my previous post, it is faster, bulkier, and more powerful than Mega Ampharos. So if RestTalk Mega Grachomp sucks, what does that say about RestTalk Mega Ampharos?
What exactly do your replays show? The first one shows Garchomp letting Mega Ampharos set up instead of just killing it with Earthquake. In the second one, the opponent foolishly switches Landorus into Excadrill making Landorus useless as a check. The third one shows Mega Ampharos sweeping after it is Baton Passed Nasty Plot which means it received significant support.
Garchomp can't KO Mega Amph at full health with anything other than outrage. Besides, he predicted Amph would switch out, and Tesung predicted past that.
I don't know what you're on about for the second replay.
Third replay, okay sure, it got BP'd, but that's literally the only reason Espeon is so high, so let's get past that.
If you're so against Mega Amph, I'm assuming one of two things: you've never used it, or you've used it and done badly. Which is really more of your problem, not Amph's.
Also lol at Gyarados being more powerful and having better defensive typing, because lower offensive stats and a 4× weakness surpass greater overall bulk and a base 165 SAtk
Okay so, before this little escapade continues, I think it's time for a reality check here. Let's read the B ranking description:
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
Right, and B- is reserved for pokemon that fall into the lower part of this description, as in, pokes that can perform very well WITH SUPPORT, but have flaws preventing them from sweeping unhindered or walling everything and their mother.
Mega Ampharos is in B-
Mega Ampharos is not in S
Nobody is suggesting it move up to S
Stop fucking comparing it with S Tier pokemon
You want an accurate comparison, try comparing it to other pokemon in the fucking B tier
Rosenfeldius OUT.
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Same here, as far as bulky Defoggers go Zapdos is the most versatile. It has different coverage options like Heatwave, HP Ice, Toxic and can run physical, specialy or even mixed defensive spreads depending on your teams needs. Depending on the spread it can safely check stuff from Mega Pinsir to Landorus-I. As far das Defoggers go it also has good matchups when dealing with the two Defiant Users. Heatwave deals with Bisharp and Thunderbolt 2hkos Thundurus. Overall its a good Defogger for balanced teams as it pairs well with Mega Venu and has just the right combination of bulk and offensive presence that you want to have on balanced teams. A- is fine for it imo.
Alright, here it goes: I'd like to see Latios back in A+.
Sure, it fears Pursuit. Sure, it's walled by Aegislash. Sure, it fears Bisharp (though Bisharp has a hard time switching into it unless with AV).
But after you go through all of that, you have an awesome pokemon.
First, if Dragonspam still exists in gen 6, it's thanks to this guy. Few moves in the metagame are as effective on tearing down switch-ins as its Draco Meteor. It's a 130 BP, 130 SpA, STAB, Life Orb boosted move with only 2 resists. It OHKOs so many things in the tier it's hilarious. I've swept teams with Draco Meteor after doing one simple thing as taking down their steel mon. And its coverage is good, being able to take down Fighting mons and Mega Venusaur with Psychic, as well as other things with Surf/Thunderbolt.
It's really fast, sitting on a very good speed tier, with the only relevant things who outspeed it being Greninja, Thundurus, Talonflame and Mega Manectric.
It's bulky. Both defenses are good, and the SpDef is great. This is a pokemon who simply won't go down with a neutral hit. Also, it has a whopping 6 resistances, which make it easier for it to switch in. Sure, it also has 6 weaknesses, but all the high stats make it work. Not many things are surviving its Draco Mateor to deal SE damage to it.
It can also fulfill a support function with Defog, or wall things with Roost, making it pretty viable in HO or balance.
You still think being weak to Pursuit and Knock Off makes it not worth the A+? Well, let me say one thing: why do you think every HO team carries a pursuit trapper? And why do pokemon like Landorus carry Knock Off, other than being able to kill Chansey? It's because of Latios. Latios is a very big influence to the meta. No team can be sucessful without something that can survive both of its stabs, and something to pursuit trap it and make sure it won't come back to destroy your team later.
It deserves to be in A+. It's one of the best pokemon in the game right now.
Sure, it fears Pursuit. Sure, it's walled by Aegislash. Sure, it fears Bisharp (though Bisharp has a hard time switching into it unless with AV).
But after you go through all of that, you have an awesome pokemon.
First, if Dragonspam still exists in gen 6, it's thanks to this guy. Few moves in the metagame are as effective on tearing down switch-ins as its Draco Meteor. It's a 130 BP, 130 SpA, STAB, Life Orb boosted move with only 2 resists. It OHKOs so many things in the tier it's hilarious. I've swept teams with Draco Meteor after doing one simple thing as taking down their steel mon. And its coverage is good, being able to take down Fighting mons and Mega Venusaur with Psychic, as well as other things with Surf/Thunderbolt.
It's really fast, sitting on a very good speed tier, with the only relevant things who outspeed it being Greninja, Thundurus, Talonflame and Mega Manectric.
It's bulky. Both defenses are good, and the SpDef is great. This is a pokemon who simply won't go down with a neutral hit. Also, it has a whopping 6 resistances, which make it easier for it to switch in. Sure, it also has 6 weaknesses, but all the high stats make it work. Not many things are surviving its Draco Mateor to deal SE damage to it.
It can also fulfill a support function with Defog, or wall things with Roost, making it pretty viable in HO or balance.
You still think being weak to Pursuit and Knock Off makes it not worth the A+? Well, let me say one thing: why do you think every HO team carries a pursuit trapper? And why do pokemon like Landorus carry Knock Off, other than being able to kill Chansey? It's because of Latios. Latios is a very big influence to the meta. No team can be sucessful without something that can survive both of its stabs, and something to pursuit trap it and make sure it won't come back to destroy your team later.
It deserves to be in A+. It's one of the best pokemon in the game right now.
Kinda agree with that, Pursuit is basicly the only thing holding Latios back and between HP Fire and Fighting its not like the common Pursuit users can just switch in mindlessly. Bisharp and Scizor risk getting ohkoed on the spot and Ttar can get 2hkoed unless its a defensive set. And even Aegi can be 2hkoed by hp fire with some prior damage. Latios is easily on par with other A+ threats.
If Mega Ampharos is running an Agility set, Garchomp has an 81.3% chance to OHKO without a boosting item. Even if it happens to be a defensive RestTalk set, it would still be crippled by Earthquake.
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.
I think this means that Mega Ampharos belongs somewhere in the C range. For the record, I did not just compare Mega Ampharos to S rank Pokemon. I compared it several times to Mega Garchomp which is B+. I think Mega Ampharos fits right in with Mega Aggron and Mega Blastoise in the slow, bulky, Mega Evolutions without reliable recovery category which is in the C+ rank.
Honestly, I have never used Mega Ampharos, but I have played against it enough and have never had any problems dealing with it. In Tesung's replay, he overestimated the power of Mega Ampharos and panicked by sacrificing half of his team before bringing in Deoxys-S for the revenge kill. It's not like I hate Mega Ampharos; I just don't think it is good enough to be B-. Mega Ampharos can be effective given the right support, but I think anyone who sees Mega Ampharos in the viability rankings should get the message that Mega Ampharos does need support to be effective. That's why C+ feels like the right ranking for it in my opinion.
Say no more
I have a suggestion for the Viability Rankings which may be controversial, but I think it's worth listening to. I propose we remove the descriptions pertaining to the Pokemon within a rank and instead focus on comparisons between Pokemon in other ranks. This has been occurring in the UU forum for a while, and is often being seen in the OU one as well. Quite simply, the rank descriptions are both outdated, and not correct when we compare Pokemon, which is the purpose of this thread. I'm not asking for a radical change, but I believe they should be removed so that people don't use these descriptions to support their argument when instead each rank should have Pokemon compared to the ranks around it. Often these two things clash, and I think the comparison method is much more logical if we choose to only use one.
Couple of things, then we move on from this. If you've never used it, why are you arguing against it like you have experience using it? I have used it, others have used it. It's more effective than you give it credit for. Just because you used it against other players and it didn't do much against you doesn't mean its not good. Either matchup dictated that it wouldn't be effective or you played someone who didn't use it effectively.
Having checks and counters to things like Zard Y/Keldeo/Thundy that can't be pursuit trap is something that is the meta is pretty desperate for at the moment. While things like can CbbNite can check those and Landorus, it doesn't always fit on teams where Ampharos might. It doesn't really need that much support to be effective to be honest.
As for what happened in the replay I talked to Ben Gay on skype and he said the following:
[5:31:47 PM] Tony: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-viability-ranking-thread-v2.3502428/page-96#post-5479272
[5:32:43 PM] ben gay: tony i predicted him not to eq or outrage since if he eqd i coulda gone to torn and get momentum and he is at a rly bad start and if he outraged i had ferro so his best possible play was sr which i took adv of
It was simple Risk vs Reward.
Just because I have not used Mega Ampharos does not necessarily mean what I am saying about it is wrong. To be an effective battler, you need to know about Pokemon and sets that you don't use yourself. I am just making arguments about Mega Ampharos from one perspective. If others have a different perspective, that is great. This is a discussion thread, and all I am doing is voicing my opinion based on my own experiences. Having people with different experiences and perspectives about certain Pokemon is what makes this thread worthwhile in the first place.
Right, and we respect that. But it's you against the world here (and a couple of mods), and it's pretty clear that the decision is final. So I think this topic has about run its course.
Moving on to the important stuff now like being me being HELLA BUTTHURT that Umbreon is in C and not C+/B-
I think Charizard-Y still deserves to be in S-rank. While Landorus-I has Charizard-Y beat in certain categories (like handling the blobs, due to Landorus-I having access to knock off), as well as a better speed tier (by literally one point, lol), Charizard-Y defines himself as being THE strongest special attacker in OU. A sun-boosted fire blast is even stronger than Landorus-I and his life-orb, sheer power, boosted Earth Power.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D: 118-140 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 146-174 (48 - 57.2%) -- 37.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D in Sun: 160-190 (52.6 - 62.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I honestly can't think of a pokemon that's NOT 2HKO or OHKOed by Charizard-Y's fire blast unless they resist or are immune to fire or are the pink blobs. While a lot of pokemon similarly can't handle two Earth Powers from Landorus-I, there are a considerable number of pokemon that are just flat-out immune to it (anything that flies).
Still though, Landorus-I has a major advantage over Charizard-Y in his 101 base speed. While Charizard-Y also suffers from 4x Stealth Rock weakness and takes up a mega-slot, I believe the biggest reason to using Landorus-I over Charizard-Y is his speed. As we all know, the 100 base speed is the most overcrowded speed tier in OU. Being able to one-up that speed tier, even if it's just by one point, is a tremendous advantage.
However, Charizard-Y also comes with a deadly edge as well, an edge I believe that is enough to push him into S-rank alongside his brother Charizard-X. The unpredictability. Upon entering battle against Charizard, you'll never know if it's X or Y until it transforms in your face. This alone can cause you to lose a pokemon. Charizard-X is undoubtedly the best dragon dancer in the tier, but he wouldn't be quite as potent in OU if it were not for his Y counterpart. Guessing whether it's a Charizard X or Y leaves a new level of complexity for your opponent to ponder. Should they try to keep Chansey alive in case that's a Charizard-Y? Should they switch Mandibuzz in, hoping that it'll transform into a Charizard X? Should they just sac a pokemon to see what kind of Charizard it is? Both mega-evolutions of Charizard help each other push themselves to greatness.
After the surprise has been revealed, Charizard-Y is still a fire-nuke of a pokemon. Between Fire Blast, Solarbeam, Focus Blast, and Dragon Pulse, very little can avoid being 2HKO by his fearsome power. In fact... I can only think of Bulky Latias, Multi-scale Dragonite, and the pink blobs that can last for more than two turns against Charizard-Y.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D: 118-140 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 146-174 (48 - 57.2%) -- 37.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D in Sun: 160-190 (52.6 - 62.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I honestly can't think of a pokemon that's NOT 2HKO or OHKOed by Charizard-Y's fire blast unless they resist or are immune to fire or are the pink blobs. While a lot of pokemon similarly can't handle two Earth Powers from Landorus-I, there are a considerable number of pokemon that are just flat-out immune to it (anything that flies).
Still though, Landorus-I has a major advantage over Charizard-Y in his 101 base speed. While Charizard-Y also suffers from 4x Stealth Rock weakness and takes up a mega-slot, I believe the biggest reason to using Landorus-I over Charizard-Y is his speed. As we all know, the 100 base speed is the most overcrowded speed tier in OU. Being able to one-up that speed tier, even if it's just by one point, is a tremendous advantage.
However, Charizard-Y also comes with a deadly edge as well, an edge I believe that is enough to push him into S-rank alongside his brother Charizard-X. The unpredictability. Upon entering battle against Charizard, you'll never know if it's X or Y until it transforms in your face. This alone can cause you to lose a pokemon. Charizard-X is undoubtedly the best dragon dancer in the tier, but he wouldn't be quite as potent in OU if it were not for his Y counterpart. Guessing whether it's a Charizard X or Y leaves a new level of complexity for your opponent to ponder. Should they try to keep Chansey alive in case that's a Charizard-Y? Should they switch Mandibuzz in, hoping that it'll transform into a Charizard X? Should they just sac a pokemon to see what kind of Charizard it is? Both mega-evolutions of Charizard help each other push themselves to greatness.
After the surprise has been revealed, Charizard-Y is still a fire-nuke of a pokemon. Between Fire Blast, Solarbeam, Focus Blast, and Dragon Pulse, very little can avoid being 2HKO by his fearsome power. In fact... I can only think of Bulky Latias, Multi-scale Dragonite, and the pink blobs that can last for more than two turns against Charizard-Y.
Nominating Mega Houndoom for C+ Rank.
Mega Houndoom isn't what I would call very good, as without setup it's pretty weak paired with terrible bulk. However, after searching around calculations, I have found that Mega Doom can actually have ease to sweep a team easily. With a boosting move in Nasty Plot, once it has setup, few things take a hit from it. It has an amazing speed tier of 115, too. Allowing it to outspeed a majority of Today's OU threats. Not only so, but it's normal form, has Early Bird, and Flash Fire. Allowing it to either absorb Spore's, or Fire Attacks (Have a Flash Fire boost in the sun and watch everything fucking burn). Here's a few calculations of +2 Mega Doom destroying today's top threats.
Of course, NP, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Dark Pulse, and HP [Grass] are a few options. It can also play as a suicide attacker, using Destiny Bond paired with it's high speed. It has okay priority in Sucker Punch (Although it doesn't have the attack stat to use it well), and can also use a Sunny Day set. It may be weak to four types (Fighting, Water, Rock, and Ground), but keep in mind that has almost DOUBLE the amount of resists. A few drawbacks, though keep this thing back from me going to B-, such as having 90 Base Speed before MEvo. I'm done with that small rant, moving on..
Charizard Y is an amazing wallbreaker, so you can't really compare it with Charizard X. So lets compare it with another wallbreaker, Landorus. Charizard Y sits at a 100 base speed, getting out sped by quite a bit of Pokemon. It also has a handy 4x weakness to Stealth Rock that can't change, isn't that helpful? Lets put on Roost for recovery, then. The best move to take away is Dragon Pulse, now you're walled by the Lati twins. Landorus doesn't face these problems nearly as much. Earth Power, Psychic, Sludge Wave, Knock Off. Done, most prominent threats in the game get killed by that very set right there. One of the biggest things about Charizard Y though, is that it only gets 5 turns to wreck shit. Just switch in and out in five turns, or just use a Latias and Roost Stall. Yes, Landorus does have a big 4MSS problem, but it has the moves to at least kill most Pokemon in the game, and has technically an infinite amount of time to kill whatever is needed.
Mega Houndoom isn't what I would call very good, as without setup it's pretty weak paired with terrible bulk. However, after searching around calculations, I have found that Mega Doom can actually have ease to sweep a team easily. With a boosting move in Nasty Plot, once it has setup, few things take a hit from it. It has an amazing speed tier of 115, too. Allowing it to outspeed a majority of Today's OU threats. Not only so, but it's normal form, has Early Bird, and Flash Fire. Allowing it to either absorb Spore's, or Fire Attacks (Have a Flash Fire boost in the sun and watch everything fucking burn). Here's a few calculations of +2 Mega Doom destroying today's top threats.
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 336-396 (103.7 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 316-373 (106 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 309-365 (103.6 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 302-356 (93.4 - 110.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 440-522 (145.6 - 172.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 373-441 (116.5 - 137.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 316-373 (106 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 309-365 (103.6 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 302-356 (93.4 - 110.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 440-522 (145.6 - 172.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 373-441 (116.5 - 137.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Of course, NP, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Dark Pulse, and HP [Grass] are a few options. It can also play as a suicide attacker, using Destiny Bond paired with it's high speed. It has okay priority in Sucker Punch (Although it doesn't have the attack stat to use it well), and can also use a Sunny Day set. It may be weak to four types (Fighting, Water, Rock, and Ground), but keep in mind that has almost DOUBLE the amount of resists. A few drawbacks, though keep this thing back from me going to B-, such as having 90 Base Speed before MEvo. I'm done with that small rant, moving on..
Going to have to instantly disagree with this. Charizard Y and X both, do, help eachother more. But thinking more greatly, Charizard X has a type advantage, in the same way that Gyarados does. Even if the Y Form didn't exist, you wouldn't know when it would actually Mega-Evolve, you could use a Thunderbolt at the wrong time, as he Mega Evolves. Yes, they do push each other to a greater extent, they would probably be worse without the other form, but a quote that will keep on coming back on and on "If you predict wrong with Charizard Y, you can potentially lose a Pokemon. If you predict wrong with Charizard X, you can potentially lose the game".
Charizard Y is an amazing wallbreaker, so you can't really compare it with Charizard X. So lets compare it with another wallbreaker, Landorus. Charizard Y sits at a 100 base speed, getting out sped by quite a bit of Pokemon. It also has a handy 4x weakness to Stealth Rock that can't change, isn't that helpful? Lets put on Roost for recovery, then. The best move to take away is Dragon Pulse, now you're walled by the Lati twins. Landorus doesn't face these problems nearly as much. Earth Power, Psychic, Sludge Wave, Knock Off. Done, most prominent threats in the game get killed by that very set right there. One of the biggest things about Charizard Y though, is that it only gets 5 turns to wreck shit. Just switch in and out in five turns, or just use a Latias and Roost Stall. Yes, Landorus does have a big 4MSS problem, but it has the moves to at least kill most Pokemon in the game, and has technically an infinite amount of time to kill whatever is needed.
But you've used it right? Cause I have, and while I'm not entirely opposed to moving to C+ (cause I think it's on par with some of the other set-up sweepers there, and is better than a majority of C,) don't just say "at +2 it OHKOs a ton of stuff so move it up," because, while it's quite powerful after a turn of set-up, it has a lot of problems that prevent it from a). getting a turn to set-up (multiple common weaknesses, poor bulk) and b). sweeping a decent team (inability to break past Chansey without multiple boosts, complete inability to get past Unaware Clefable, succumbs to multiple scarfers (pretty much any with erfquake or Close Combat,) priority users (Azumarill, Talonflame, Breloom) and Deo-S w/ Superpower.)
Yes I do like this idea and I'm not against it at all. It's a great way to figure out if a Pokemon truly fits well into a rank by comparing its viability and usefulness with others currently in that same rank. However please be practical if you're going to use this as a way to support your arguments. I don't want to see somebody saying shit like "Deoxys-D doesn't belong in S rank because it only really runs one kind of set while the others in S rank run at least 3."
For example, going off the Mega Ampharos arguments that seem to be going on right now, I personally think it fits very well with the other B- Pokemon. It's not something that I would consider on most of my teams, but it's a very solid Pokemon that can hold its own on certain teams that need it. It's ability to check a lot of prominent Pokemon as well as its sweeping potential makes it a great contender for a team slot if you're willing to give up your mega slot for it. Same goes with Mega Aero, Mega Zam, and Mega Absol; they have very specific niches which make them huge threats when given the right support. All of the Pokemon in B- struggle for a teamslot, but have pretty high payoffs which warrant them a spot on some teams.
This doesn't mean that you're restricted to only using this as a way to support your arguments, but I highly recommend that you do use this sometimes, because it helps a lot with placement accuracy.
Remember people, any arguments regarding a Pokemon's usage will be ignored entirely. I still don't want to see them.
However I wont remove the ranking descriptions. While they may be arguably inaccurate, I think it's more practical to just revise them than delete them entirely. I'd rather just use both.
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Because this thread is not supposed to cater to good players that already know very well the viability of most Pokemon in OU, it's supposed to cater to the new or inexperienced players looking to find which Pokemon are good for use in OU and how good. Of course the placement of those Pokemon should be as good as possible, which is why help from good players is highly appreciated, but it's only logical to expect a thorough explanation to change ranks on any Pokemon, so that even the most inexperienced players that read this thread can get why this change happened.TFL said:
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Moving on, many people talked about Terrakion needing to drop in A- or even B+, but i don't agree, and even though i am pretty much beating a dead horse, i still want to tell why it's where it should be in A rank.
A Life Orb set with Close Combat / Stone Edge / Earthquake / Hidden Power Ice is unwallable outside of physically defensive Hippowdon, physically defensive Mega Venusaur, and Slowbro, with Mega Venusaur and Hippowdon being both very easy to wear down and needing only 5-10% prior damage to get into 2HKO range. And in combination with being a decent wallbreaker, Terrakion sits at a pretty good Speed tier and can revenge kill many offensive Pokemon, while also being able to check +2 Bisharp, which very few offensive Pokemon can do. Of course there is the option to use SD instead of HP Ice to punish defensive switch-ins such as Hippowdon and Mega Venusaur more, and lessen the need for prediction as long as the opponent brings in something slower, in which case the counters to Terrakion are just Landorus-T.Quickbobhero said:
Then, there is also the SR set that you mentioned, which is one of the best ways to guaranteed that SR will stay up, as Taunt + SR Terrakion can stop any Defog and Rapid Spin user from doing its job as long as Terrakion stays in. This makes it an extremely viable asset on offensive teams that rely a lot on SR to get important OHKOs or check dangerous Pokemon such as Dragonite, Gyarados, and both Mega Charizard.
Finally, there is also the Choice Scarf set, which is able to revenge kill the most dangerous Speed boosting sweepers in OU after a boost, namely Mega Charizard X, Mega Gyarados, Dragonite (after SR), and Mega Tyranitar, making it a pretty good pick for balanced or bulky offensive teams, which usually want either a Scarf user or a strong priority user to check anything that can get past their defensive core, or sometimes both.
And of course the are more situational sets such as double dance and CB, which are not that good on themselves, but contribute to Terrakion's viability by making it quite unpredictable, despite its shallow movepool and relatively straight forward playstyle.
So, you have three very solid sets that are pretty good at what they do (hard hitter, SR setter, revenge killer), while also fulfilling multiple other roles, such as revenge killing Bisharp and checking common and good Pokemon such as Mega Charizard Y, Mega Charizard X without EQ (Terrakion can do this with a bulky spread, which is viable on the SR set in combination with Lefties), Heatran, non-DD Tyranitar, Kyurem-B, Chansey, Mandibuzz, and plenty other, mainly defensive Pokemon. Compared to the other offensive Pokemon in A-, Breloom, Manaphy, and Mamoswine, Terrakion is simply more dangerous, versatile, and reliable at what it does.
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On the subject of Ferrothorn, A is definitely where it should be, as it's a step above the defensive Pokemon in A-, because it is way easier to fit into teams, provides a ton of team support (SR + Leech Seed + Thunder Wave (optional)), and counters one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the metagame, Mega Gyarados, while handling plenty of others, such as Thundurus without Fighting moves, Azumarill, Excadrill, Garchomp, Greninja, Mega Tyranitar, DD Dragonite without Fire Punch (most of them) Kyurem-B, Landorus-T, and Latios. Ferrothorn just does so much, and it does them all good, and i usually prefer it as my bulky Grass-type on balanced teams and bulky offensive teams over Mega Venusaur, as it doesn't take your Mega Slot, deals with the Pokemon it checks more reliably, and makes for a pretty good SR setter, especially against offensive teams that use Latios, Latias, or Excadrill as their anti-hazard Pokemon.
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Lastly, i definitely agree with TRC and Gary that we should be comparing Pokemon with other Pokemon in the ranks surrounding them. Comparisons with other Pokemon is one of the best ways to determine viability, so i want to see more people using comparisons to explain their choices when suggesting ranks for Pokemon.
Okay alexwolf and I decided that we're going to edit the rank descriptions a bit. The wording is very similar to the LC ranking thread, simply because I felt like they had the best definition for each rank. Here's a comparison, tell me how you like it, if anything else needs to be changed, if you prefer the old ones, etc. I think these new ones, especially the S rank, will really help avoid the confusion we've been having.
Old
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks.
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a very small niche in the current OU metagame, but have very noticeable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to Pokemon in the above ranks.
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a very small niche in the current OU metagame, but have very noticeable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.
NEW
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.
Exactly why I am not a forums man. I addressed one unintelligent post that was poorly not backed up for evidence, as all it used was vulgar language and general statments. I completely respect anyone's opinion, even if it is against my own, however SmogFrog did not demonstrate his knowledge of the OU metagame, and because of it you all are backing him up. To me, that only shows how worthless his initial post is. After careful consideration, I have come to the conclusion that I fundamentally disagree with this thread. There is no way to determine if Pokemon A is superior in every such way to Pokemon B (How the hell do I know if Choice Scarf Terrakion is a good fit on a team I haven't seen?). This discussion has gone too far, from talking about Terrakion's viability in OU (which is certainly existent), to having to justify a specific set. Surely this was not alexwolf's intention as he created the thread. I no longer wish to be a part of a discussion in which my initial thesis has shifted dramatically (from criticizing a single post, to discussing in particular, Choice Scarf Terrakion) and my opinions are no longer welcome. Go on. Preach that one Pokemon can be better in every way than another and continue to support a ridiculous hierarchy that does not stand true to all conditions. Also, I referred to Infernape because of its versatility in movepool which is certainly a factor in viability (Why were Genesect, Deoxys-D, and Landorus-I banned last generation?). For the record, I do not care at all about the opinions you all may have formed about me and will continue to ladder (generally on Pokemon Online, where I have alts at 1500) and enjoy the game.
Love the new descriptions Gary!
One nitpick - B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than
Mega Ampharos, scarf Excadrill, Garchomp, Zard X, and a few others take massive shits on Zard Y. Easily outsped, really not hard to wall, no boosting moves that are viable, and 4x SR weakness. A+ is fine.
Drop Sharpedo out of C+...
Okay, so Sharpedo's niche is speed boost sweeping. Right away, competition from a more versatile and devastating Scolilipede. Both (Sharp and Scol) are easily revenged by Talonflame at any boost. Keldeo hard walls this guy, and multiple checks exist for the EQ/Crunch/waterfall variant including Azumarill, Breloom, Conkeldurr, Gyarados (-m) and Rotom-w. After rocks and 2 LO turns, Pinsir-m is an OHKO with Quick attack.
Stall doesn't even notice Sharpedo. Venu, Vaporeon, Amoongus, Ferrothorn, Quagsire, Gyarados, Skarm, Chesnaught, Clefable and even chansey avoid the 2hko.
It isn't the only "Fast cleaner". In fact, Sharpedo is really slow to get there, considering Swift Swim and Sand Rush mons like Kabutops, Excadrill and Kingdra all perform this role with more efficiency and are easier to make teams for. None, including sharpedo, are easy to put on any team.
And worst of all, it has competition for the slot by typing. Gyarados-m is far better. Crawdaunt is way more powerful, has boosting moves and priority. Greninja is a better speed/revenge killer.
Compare this to the mons of C+.
Aggron-m is the single most bulky physical wall in the game, and tanks most of the physical meta. A recovery issue holds it back.
Alakazam is a great revenge killer in OU, with incredible versatility. While Talonflame does this job, too, alakazam has great fire power and is a fantastic sash user given his magic guard ability.
Blastoise-mega is the best rapid spinner, but costs you a mega spot. He beats every single spin blocker and quite a few setters.
Entei is a great wall breaker this generation and nigh impossible for any non-fire physical mon to switch into given Sacred Fire. His choice band set supports good speed, a decent movepool and a niche nothing in OU does... Heatran can come close but 50% is better than 30% and the damage difference is real.
Ditto is the all-purpose revenge killer. It takes just about anything and kills it on a check, including megas. Because of this, it can reverse sweep. The presence of a ditto alone stops opponents from boosting.
In C
Dugtrio is an excellent mon that can revenge kill ZardX, Heatran, TTar and Excadrill lacking balloon without letting them escape. It can take down Charziard-Y, Pinsir-m or at least force more rock damage on them when they come in. It can beat Gyarados-m given good prediction and reversal. Aegislash staying in loses. Many other mons know a similar story when taking on Dugtrio. Of course, the lack of bulk makes this generally a one time thing but that's still a great trade for many teams.
Magnezone is a great partner for Pinsir-mega, allowing it to move past Skarmory, who otherwise is a huge pain in the ass. With the rise of Ferrothorn again, as well as the occasional aggro-mega (rarely carries EQ to my understanding), Magnezone gains more of a niche game to game. The attack isn't bad, either. Restricted by the 4x weakness to ground in an EQ heavy meta, otherwise very solid.
I'm skipping P2 but you know how I feel about that one. Solid as any mon in C.
Blissey, for all the competition from chansey, is still bulky as hell and second best bulk cleric. It has a hard time differentiating itself but has a much better special attack and doesn't care about residual as much.
Wobbuffett... The bulky trapper, when used right, gains two or three kills. Of course, it has a dark weakness in a knock-off heavy meta, and can't really stop toxics but can be paired to do a tickle-pursuit combo to take out mons that choose not to attack.
These mons all have clear viability and clear uses. They may not be the best but used right, they're still very good. They're outclassed by one or two mons perhaps, not upwards of 10.
C-
Celebi: 4x u-turn weak, dark weak, fire weak, ice weak... aka terrible typing. good status absorber, awesome move pool... I wouldn't use in OU unless I was pressed to do so. It has uses but I can think of many other mons I'd rather use.
Reuniculus: Once feared, it gets hit hard by dark moves and can be revenged by all the powerful priority even when under trick room. Could easily use it, needs a great deal of team support. Might need to consider moving this up to C.
Gastrodon: Has like one niche in countering rain teams and rotom-wash. Tons of other water/ground types better for stall/bulky offense/rain (Quag/Swamp/Seis respectively) but the storm drain + reliable recovery is worth something.
Slowking: Is actually really good with that set alexwolf has (I've been using it more often now because of that great special bulk) but still pretty bad vs the physical meta. Good special attack, has a bit of a hard time justifying itself compared to slowbro.
I think Sharpedo fits in with the C- rank way more than anything in C+...
Okay, so Sharpedo's niche is speed boost sweeping. Right away, competition from a more versatile and devastating Scolilipede. Both (Sharp and Scol) are easily revenged by Talonflame at any boost. Keldeo hard walls this guy, and multiple checks exist for the EQ/Crunch/waterfall variant including Azumarill, Breloom, Conkeldurr, Gyarados (-m) and Rotom-w. After rocks and 2 LO turns, Pinsir-m is an OHKO with Quick attack.
Stall doesn't even notice Sharpedo. Venu, Vaporeon, Amoongus, Ferrothorn, Quagsire, Gyarados, Skarm, Chesnaught, Clefable and even chansey avoid the 2hko.
It isn't the only "Fast cleaner". In fact, Sharpedo is really slow to get there, considering Swift Swim and Sand Rush mons like Kabutops, Excadrill and Kingdra all perform this role with more efficiency and are easier to make teams for. None, including sharpedo, are easy to put on any team.
And worst of all, it has competition for the slot by typing. Gyarados-m is far better. Crawdaunt is way more powerful, has boosting moves and priority. Greninja is a better speed/revenge killer.
Compare this to the mons of C+.
Aggron-m is the single most bulky physical wall in the game, and tanks most of the physical meta. A recovery issue holds it back.
Alakazam is a great revenge killer in OU, with incredible versatility. While Talonflame does this job, too, alakazam has great fire power and is a fantastic sash user given his magic guard ability.
Blastoise-mega is the best rapid spinner, but costs you a mega spot. He beats every single spin blocker and quite a few setters.
Entei is a great wall breaker this generation and nigh impossible for any non-fire physical mon to switch into given Sacred Fire. His choice band set supports good speed, a decent movepool and a niche nothing in OU does... Heatran can come close but 50% is better than 30% and the damage difference is real.
Ditto is the all-purpose revenge killer. It takes just about anything and kills it on a check, including megas. Because of this, it can reverse sweep. The presence of a ditto alone stops opponents from boosting.
In C
Dugtrio is an excellent mon that can revenge kill ZardX, Heatran, TTar and Excadrill lacking balloon without letting them escape. It can take down Charziard-Y, Pinsir-m or at least force more rock damage on them when they come in. It can beat Gyarados-m given good prediction and reversal. Aegislash staying in loses. Many other mons know a similar story when taking on Dugtrio. Of course, the lack of bulk makes this generally a one time thing but that's still a great trade for many teams.
Magnezone is a great partner for Pinsir-mega, allowing it to move past Skarmory, who otherwise is a huge pain in the ass. With the rise of Ferrothorn again, as well as the occasional aggro-mega (rarely carries EQ to my understanding), Magnezone gains more of a niche game to game. The attack isn't bad, either. Restricted by the 4x weakness to ground in an EQ heavy meta, otherwise very solid.
I'm skipping P2 but you know how I feel about that one. Solid as any mon in C.
Blissey, for all the competition from chansey, is still bulky as hell and second best bulk cleric. It has a hard time differentiating itself but has a much better special attack and doesn't care about residual as much.
Wobbuffett... The bulky trapper, when used right, gains two or three kills. Of course, it has a dark weakness in a knock-off heavy meta, and can't really stop toxics but can be paired to do a tickle-pursuit combo to take out mons that choose not to attack.
These mons all have clear viability and clear uses. They may not be the best but used right, they're still very good. They're outclassed by one or two mons perhaps, not upwards of 10.
C-
Celebi: 4x u-turn weak, dark weak, fire weak, ice weak... aka terrible typing. good status absorber, awesome move pool... I wouldn't use in OU unless I was pressed to do so. It has uses but I can think of many other mons I'd rather use.
Reuniculus: Once feared, it gets hit hard by dark moves and can be revenged by all the powerful priority even when under trick room. Could easily use it, needs a great deal of team support. Might need to consider moving this up to C.
Gastrodon: Has like one niche in countering rain teams and rotom-wash. Tons of other water/ground types better for stall/bulky offense/rain (Quag/Swamp/Seis respectively) but the storm drain + reliable recovery is worth something.
Slowking: Is actually really good with that set alexwolf has (I've been using it more often now because of that great special bulk) but still pretty bad vs the physical meta. Good special attack, has a bit of a hard time justifying itself compared to slowbro.
I think Sharpedo fits in with the C- rank way more than anything in C+...
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