XY UU Viability Ranking Thread

[C AllStar]

I totally agree with Torndaus-T rising to A+ rank. In fact, the only nerf it recieved from generation shift is the Hurricane nerf to a 110bp and 70% accuracy move, which haven't stopped Moltres from being Mid S rank last generation in RU. Knock Off buff also helps it to get pass certain walls like Chansey too. While the environment have changed a lot and things like Assualt Vest, bulkier walls makes it harder to accomplish its job, it certainly still has the power to do its job.

Calcs:

4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 299-354 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 121-143 (17.1 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 445-525 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 168-199 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 182-216 (45 - 53.4%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 149-177 (36.8 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 185-218 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Blastoise: 185-218 (51.1 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 142-169 (39.4 - 46.9%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 104-123 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- 2.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Heat Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 131-155 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 185-218 (44 - 51.9%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 174-205 (43 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 200-237 (54.9 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 165-196 (45.3 - 53.8%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Umbreon: 208-247 (52.7 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 153-183 (36.4 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 150-177 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

In fact, defensive Zapdos, Florges and specially defensive Zygarde are the only common walls in the tier that can reliably stop Torndaus-T. While relying on a 70% accuracy move as a main STAB on its main set is not really a good thing, meaning it needs some luck to wallbreak. It is really verstile too, AV sets acts like a pivot and a tank combined, capable of absorbing many strong hits while dishing huge damage back. LO wallbreaker set is a hell of a wallbreaker. I cannot comment on the physical set but have heard good things about it. This should put it on A+ Rank combined with the reasons previous posters mentioned that I don't bother to repeat.


On Alomomola, despite how I love it, I don't find it deserving such a high rank. Nothing at all has changed for Alomomola since last gen (Knock Off buff matters lol), where it ended up NU (awesome at RU though).

While theoratically it can beat many strong attackers one on one, realistically it is usually the one to switch in. After rocks, nearly every Choice Band user easily 2HKOs it even after protect, and walling a scarfer isn't really a huge feat.

However, the main problem of Alomomla is how it is a great set up bait for almost everything.

0 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 96-114 (32.8 - 39%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
Not even garantee to 3HKO something frail that is weak to it...

0 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 63-75 (21.1 - 25.1%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
SubSD Hawlucha says hi

A 80bp move coming from a base 40 special attack stat isn't going to scare off anything. It feels like WoW nerfed to 30% accuracy. The only reason Scald is used in last gen RU over Waterfall is that things it is supposed to hit has higher defense (Hydro Pump Qwilfish) and Waterfall fails to break sub anyway. Any set up sweeper gets free set up opportunity if it can avoid the burn (Sub, Lum, hitting a Focus Miss). This is exactly why Dusclops is considered garbage.

Wish + Regenerator is an incredible combination able to healing both itself and a teamate in one turn while not losing momentum. However, it has huge flaws stopping it to be really effective. It should be B- Rank.

 

[eggman62]

If I'd use Alomomola I'd use Protect/Toxic/Wish/Knock Off as I don't see Scald is better than protect, b/c Protect will stall Toxic, give you lefties, and secure wish. So it's more like either Knock Off or Scald.

-1 252+ Atk Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 109-130 (32.6 - 38.9%) -- 10% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 159-187 (29.7 - 35%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Alomomola is actually physically bulkier than a Qwilfish factoring Intimidate. Wow, that's something. But Krookodile has more bulk factoring intimidate, but then again, cannot pass wishes ...

Alomomola can knock off for utility, pass huge wishes (Bigger than Florge's, but smaller than Chansey's), stall w/ Toxic, the only good thing it has over Chansey is the better physical bulk, Knock Off, and Regenarator. (Even though Chansey can Seismic Toss, T-wave, set-up rocks, and Heal Bell).

Honestly Alomomola just doesn't bring enough support (Lacking Heal bell is the most major) to be A- or B+, I think Alomomola should be B-, as if you invest in Physical Defense, your Special Defense is very lackluster.

Qwilfish on the other hand, can pass double status, T-Wave + Toxic, unlike Alomomola, it is NOT a set-up fodder as Haze is awesome, can set up Spikes, ,has amazing D-Bond, surprising Taunt, and the only inferiority is the lack of a stable recovery, as Qwilfish's best mean of recovery is Pain Split.

Now what other have mentioned on 4MSS:

Qwilfish can effectively eliminate Walls, Stalling pokemons, Physical Sweepers, or even some specific pokemons depending on your set. For example, all you need is T-wave, Pain Split, and Haze to effectively remove physical sweepers, Waterfall/Poison Jab is just used when the opponent refuses to switch.

To get walls, all you need to run is Toxic, Pain Split, Taunt, and Spikes. This same set also outstalls a lot of pokemons.

What I like about Qwilfish, is that it can efficiently eliminate a lot of T-Wave weak sweeper and slower T-wave immune pokemon. For example, your team is getting wrecked by Megazone? Just use D-Bond. Meinshao? T-Wave + Waterfall/Poison Jab. Hydreigon? Run 252/252+, T-wave, the D-Bond. And so on.

Qwilfish may get stopped by Taunt if you are not running Waterfall/Poison Jab, but that goes to every support pokemon.

Being immune Toxic/Poison is also very helpful

I think Qwilfish is solid B- rank

While yes it may seem like Chansey is superior to Alomomola, when Alomomola is used correctly it has tons of advantages.

The first big advantage is that unlike Chansey Alomomola is not bothered by knock off and can function just as well without an item. Chansey's bulk as we know comes from evolite which once removed makes it practically useless to the team, Alomomola on the other hand is not at all phased by knock off as roughly 3 turns of leftovers equate to one regenerator switch.

Secondly Chansey is often seen inferior to Blissey because it is unable to carry leftovers, while it does not need leftovers to be effective Alomomola can carry leftovers which is another plus other Chansey. While Alomomola lacks heal bell through leftovers recovery and regenerator residual damage is more often than not nothing more than an annoyance.

Finally having regenerator in my opinion makes Alomomola in its own right a very good alternative to Chansey, as the biggest problem with Chansey is that once it reaches half of its health it becomes incredibly difficult to actually heal itself. This I have found often puts players in a position where they have to choose between healing Chansey or another pokemon and making the choice to heal another pokemon can often result in loosing Chansey.

 

[Ruffles]

Thanks for the like. While I completely understand that Alomomola's Spdef is low, Florges which is an A ranked pokemon, when uninvested in physical bulk has roughly around the same amount of special bulk as Alomomola -if you factor in its high base hp- when it too is uninvested, and while Florges has a better typing it does not have regenerator, which as I have mentioned before helps Alomomola to shrug of weaker special attacks. furthermore special attacks have been reduced which is big boost to Alomomola.

I'm experimenting with EVs and while a spread of 4HP, 252Def, 252Sdef does detract from its physical bulk it does on the other hand allow it survive a timid thunderbolt from Zapdos.

Lool let me just reiterate, the reason why I believe Alomomola is such a viable defensive pokemon is because unlike its competitors it can fulfil so many different roles with just one set. Alomomola is best played like any other regenerator pokemon and only wall if you are facing a threat that no other member of your team can counter.

Finally when I say Alomomola is hard to use I mean that for you to get the best out of it, it needs to be used on a well thought out team, as unlike offer wish passers it cannot just be thrown onto any team because as I have mentioned before while it functions really well as a wall, unless Alomomola is against a threat it has a type advantage against, it should only be in for a maximum of 3 turns.

I am going to use the same example as before, but against a threat like a banded Heracross, Alomomola should first use knock off thereby reducing the damage Heracross can do. On the next turn use wish as regardless of whether the opponent switches or attacks you will still maintain momentum, as if they attack Alomomola, the damage of that turn will be recovered by regenerator when you switch out the following turn and if they switch you are essentially getting a free U-turn but instead of doing damage you are able to heal the Pokemon you switch in and in the background Alomomola will gain back some of its health.

While 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD makes you very bulky, you'd be passing much smaller wishes. Which is one of the most important niche of Alomomla.

Honestly, the thing with Alomomola, is that it can be easily become a set up fodder.

For example, I can come in with my Houndoom and NP a couple of times. Aside from Toxic, you can do nothing. While Scald does ~35%, you won't even carry Scald (Protect/Toxic/Knock Off/Wish) which is a problem.

For example Mega Absol, you can't even use Toxic or Knock Off.

Hawlucha say.

Turn One - use SD
Alomomola uses Toxic

Turn 2 - Sky Attack does ~70%
Alomomola uses Wish

Turn 3 - Hawlucha uses SD
Alomomola uses Protect

Turn 4 - Hawlucha uses HJK and KOs

 

[Ruffles]

While yes it may seem like Chansey is superior to Alomomola, when Alomomola is used correctly it has tons of advantages.

The first big advantage is that unlike Chansey Alomomola is not bothered by knock off and can function just as well without an item. Chansey's bulk as we know comes from evolite which once removed makes it practically useless to the team, Alomomola on the other hand is not at all phased by knock off as roughly 3 turns of leftovers equate to one regenerator switch.

Secondly Chansey is often seen inferior to Blissey because it is unable to carry leftovers, while it does not need leftovers to be effective Alomomola can carry leftovers which is another plus other Chansey. While Alomomola lacks heal bell through leftovers recovery and regenerator residual damage is more often than not nothing more than an annoyance.

Finally having regenerator in my opinion makes Alomomola in its own right a very good alternative to Chansey, as the biggest problem with Chansey is that once it reaches half of its health it becomes incredibly difficult to actually heal itself. This I have found often puts players in a position where they have to choose between healing Chansey or another pokemon and making the choice to heal another pokemon can often result in loosing Chansey.

That is very true.

Also true

That is only true if your Chansey isn't carrying Protect, and nothing can do flat out 50% par extremely powerful Physical hits.

But your missing out on the point, Chansey is much more versatile, rocks, T-Wave, Seismic toss, Heal Bell, Seismic toss (Wish + Seismic toss is extremely reliable recovery that gets past the Knock Off issue) and more, while can still pass bigger wishes and take a lot of hits very good.

Chansey's terrible vulnerability to Knock Off can actually be helpful, as what I do is just switch into my Absol and get a free Justified boost without even losing an item. which is basically my idea of using Absol + Chansey. And it's very helpful sometimes.

Alomomola has one set and very predictable, most of the times it would run Knock Off over Scald.

Now I'm not hating on this thing, I'm just saying it's no higher than B, but B- is just more fitting

 

[eggman62]

While 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD makes you very bulky, you'd be passing much smaller wishes. Which is one of the most important niche of Alomomla.

Honestly, the thing with Alomomola, is that it can be easily become a set up fodder.

For example, I can come in with my Houndoom and NP a couple of times. Aside from Toxic, you can do nothing. While Scald does ~35%, you won't even carry Scald (Protect/Toxic/Knock Off/Wish) which is a problem.

For example Mega Absol, you can't even use Toxic or Knock Off.

Hawlucha say.

Turn One - use SD
Alomomola uses Toxic

Turn 2 - Sky Attack does ~70%
Alomomola uses Wish

Turn 3 - Hawlucha uses SD
Alomomola uses Protect

Turn 4 - Hawlucha uses HJK and KOs

I've been using:

Alomomola @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Knock Off
- Scald
- Toxic

I've been using this set for two weeks and trust me protect is not really needed if you use Alomomola as a hit and run cleric.

I think its unfair pitting Alomomola against mega houndoom as personally why would i try and stall such a powerfull special attacker when i have poor Spdef the logical option would be to switch into a reliable counter or check

For mega Absol if the opponent wants to setup to OHKO Alomomola they will need to be at +6

+6 252 Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 483-568 (90.4 - 106.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+5 252 Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 423-498 (79.2 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

In order to set up the opponent will need to swords dance for three turns which gives me 3 free turns to hit with scald, which has a 30% chance to burn. If I am unlucky enough to get a burn I then get one more chance after sucker punch which only has 43.8% chance to OHKO to burn it... what more likely me getting a burn in 3-4 turns or you getting to plus 6 without being burned ;)

Hawlucha yes is harder to counter but that why you have other team members

On the other hand though

How does Chansey counter the threats that were mentioned

 

[radianthero156]

tested alomomola and though it's acceptable, it's not as good as you guys are making it to be. first off, it sure is sturdy enough to take hits from zygarde, haxorus, darmanitan, hawlucha, etc.

however, what can it do to them? after a boost, zygarde, haxorus and heracross will 2HKO alomomola, and it can only either use toxic, which will result in those pokemons killing 3-4 mons of your team until the poison takes effect, or hope for a 30% scald burn.

still, being an excellent pivot for fire or ground pokemons and its large wishes + regenerator is enough for putting it at C/C- i think. and don't compare chansey to alomomola, they're entirely different pokemons; in fact, they have good synergy when combined

 

[eggman62]

tested alomomola and though it's acceptable, it's not as good as you guys are making it to be. first off, it sure is sturdy enough to take hits from zygarde, haxorus, darmanitan, hawlucha, etc.

however, what can it do to them? after a boost, zygarde, haxorus and heracross will 2HKO alomomola, and it can only either use toxic, which will result in those pokemons killing 3-4 mons of your team until the poison takes effect, or hope for a 30% scald burn.

still, being an excellent pivot for fire or ground pokemons and its large wishes + regenerator is enough for putting it at C/C- i think. and don't compare chansey to alomomola, they're entirely different pokemons; in fact, they have good synergy when combined

I have to disagree with you some of your points. Alomomola combines the qualities of a wish passer, wall and disrupter exceptionally well, qualities that are definitely undervalued and not found in any other pokemon. Furthermore pitting any defensive pokemon against a set up sweeper will more often than not always result in defensive pokemon loosing. Chansey for example has no way of defeating the pokemon you mentioned even with evolite max def and hp it still has less physical bulk than Alomomola and is arguable just as big or even bigger set up fodder. At least Alomomola has a chance to burn physical attackers while they set up, as apart from the strongest physical attackers using the strong bp moves they are more likely to get burned before they are able to OHKO Alomomola.

I do however agree, Alomomola against powerful threats can be used as set up fodder you are 100% right in saying that but what defensive pokemon without a phazing move is not?

 

[radianthero156]

well, i said chansey shouldn't be compared with momola, but chansey does not lose to special setup sweepers (barring calm mind keldeo and reuniclus i think), while alomomola loses to pratically everything with dragon/swords dance. but yeah, alomomola is a solid pokemon, i just don't think it's all that goodness. i still think vaporeon, milotic and slowbro are kinda better

 

[EonX]

If you don't want Alomomola to be setup fodder, you p. much have to give up the utility of Scald and use Waterfall off of her higher Attack. Of course, you still become complete setup bait to SubCoil Zygarde, so that's a pretty major issue. Then again, you aren't doing any better against it with Scald short of a burn on the switch. I think B- is ok for it considering it can check a ton of physical threats, but it lacks Heal Bell and has to give up the utility of Scald for Waterfall if she doesn't want to become setup bait, something that other bulky Water-types such as Slowbro, Vaporeon (who also has Wish and much, much better special bulk) and even Milotic don't have to do.

As for Tornadus-T, I definitely am with the A+ nomination. C AllStar said a lot of what I would say, but another thing it can do is sweep late-game. By simply putting Air Slash over Hurricane, you turn Tornadus-T from a fearsome wallbreaker to quite the annoying late-game sweeper that requires no setup and can still weaken its own checks and counters while not losing health thanks to Regenerator.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Why exactly is Vivillon ranked higher than Venomoth?

 

[Schpoonman]

97.5% accurate Sleep Powder and Hurricane as well as better base Speed and Special Attack.

 

[eggman62]

well, i said chansey shouldn't be compared with momola, but chansey does not lose to special setup sweepers (barring calm mind keldeo and reuniclus i think), while alomomola loses to pratically everything with dragon/swords dance. but yeah, alomomola is a solid pokemon, i just don't think it's all that goodness. i still think vaporeon, milotic and slowbro are kinda better

If you don't want Alomomola to be setup fodder, you p. much have to give up the utility of Scald and use Waterfall off of her higher Attack. Of course, you still become complete setup bait to SubCoil Zygarde, so that's a pretty major issue. Then again, you aren't doing any better against it with Scald short of a burn on the switch. I think B- is ok for it considering it can check a ton of physical threats, but it lacks Heal Bell and has to give up the utility of Scald for Waterfall if she doesn't want to become setup bait, something that other bulky Water-types such as Slowbro, Vaporeon (who also has Wish and much, much better special bulk) and even Milotic don't have to do.

As for Tornadus-T, I definitely am with the A+ nomination. C AllStar said a lot of what I would say, but another thing it can do is sweep late-game. By simply putting Air Slash over Hurricane, you turn Tornadus-T from a fearsome wallbreaker to quite the annoying late-game sweeper that requires no setup and can still weaken its own checks and counters while not losing health thanks to Regenerator.

Ok maybe I was being a bit too optimistic nominating Alomomola for A- rank but it is definitely a solid B+. In my opinion defensive slowbro is outclassed by Alomomola as if it is running 252hp 252def it possess less physical bulk than Alomomola and the difference between special bulk is hardly noticeable

252 SpA Life Orb Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Alomomola: 300-355 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 195-230 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 65.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Alomomola: 465-549 (87 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Slowbro Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 248-294 (81.5 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


While yes on paper and theoretically, Alomomola is a worst match up against special attackers, with knock off and the right Evs it can actually be put in a position where unless it is the last pokemon standing it can check powerful special attackers as they all need boosting items to actually break through it.

Furthermore bear in mind that the calculations are without investment in Alomomola special bulk and unlike Slowbro thanks to its sky high hp it has a lot more flexibility in terms of EV spreads.

 

[NGC-2024]

97.5% accurate Sleep Powder and Hurricane as well as better base Speed and Special Attack.

I rather have a consistent baton passer than a kinda good butterfree.

I also think Clawitzer should be a little higher. Specs hits like a truck, has great, strong coverage and can grab momentum with u-turn. It's slow, but its fast enough to beat the things it should beat. And with max HP it's sure not frail at 345/212/214 defenses. Its a great bulky attacker. It just has trouble with chansey and florges, but thats true for most special attackers

 

[Timpsu]

According to Bulbapedia, Venomoth and Vivillon have the same base special attack (@ 90), while Venomoth outspeeds Vivillon with 1 base point. So the reasons to use Vivillon are the more accurate Sleep Powder, plus stronger STAB in Hurricane. Venomoth, on the other hand, is able to BP Quiver Dance-boosts, and it offers the Poison STAB for those who need it. I don't know if that 1 base point makes any difference in practice, but Venomoth does have that on the side. Addiitonally, hardly anything resists Venomoth's STABs, because Tinted Lens.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

In regards to Alomomola, I think B- Rank sounds fair. It has a pretty good niche in the tier; passing huge Wishes, checking a lot of physical threats, and Regenerator helps it stay healthy enough to pass Wishes, and with its endless recovery between Wish and Regenerator, Alomomola just can't die. It can be useful support to something like Mega Aggron or Cofagrigus and also be a nice physical wall, but its lack of Heal Bell or Aromatherapy along with no offensive presence at all do hinder its performance. Alomomola is also pretty one-dimensional, but it can be a useful way to handle things like Mienshao, Hawlucha, Krookodile, and Haxorus while in general providing decent support.

I could see Venomoth being a little higher, mainly because QuiverPass is such a cheap strategy. It can incapacitate one opponent, proceed to set up Quiver Dance boosts, and pass them to something like Zapdos or Chandelure and proceed to watch the opponent's team crumble. QuiverPass is still quite a lethal strategy with very strong special attackers like the aforementioned Zapdos and Chandelure, along with Tornadus-T, Keldeo, Nidoking, etc. But I don't have that much playtesting experience with Venomoth (or Vivillon either) so I'll refrain from posting more.

On another note, I'd like to call Electivire's placement on the list at all into question, let alone in D-Rank. I have always found Electivire to be a very mediocre Pokemon since its debut, and atm I don't see any reason to use it. Electivire is a very flawed Pokemon all around, and has been that way since DPP. Firstly, although Electivire has amazing coverage (hits 13 types super effectively iirc), it relies on low Base Power moves physically and on the special side, 95 Special Attack is not that remarkable. Because of this, Electivire cannot break through many teams well, frequently missing out on a lot of KOs, and because it is frail, which is another issue with it, it will usually die after failing to KO something. Electivire also relies on Motor Drive boosts if it plans on sweeping at all, and most faster opponents have a way to destroy it in one way or another. Bulkier targets have an easy time with Electivire, so it can very much struggle to get much done in most matches. Aside from that, Electivire is also a little suicidal, since Life Orb and Wild Charge recoil stack up on it very quickly, so as it tries to attack, it will quickly end its lifespan. If I wanted an Electric-type, I'd much sooner use Zapdos or Mega Manectric any day; they can't go mixed like Electivire, but they do a lot more each match and provide more reward as an Electric-type in general. Darmanitan, Mega Absol, and Magnezone are all much better wallbreakers, and can do more than Electivire could ever wish it did. Overall, I'd like to see Electivire removed from the list entirely, as I feel its niche is not significant enough even for D-Rank.

 

[EonX]

eggman62 , I understand that Momo is pretty potent. As a BW RU player, I know exactly how painful it can be to take down Alomomola (Momo is damn good in BW RU for that insane physical bulk) but her problems there are her same problems here. Yes, you could alter the EV spread a bit to take special attacks, but at that point, why not use Vaporeon? Vaporeon doesn't need to invest in Special Defense to take some brutal special attacks while investing fully in physical bulk to handls some physical attackers as well. She also has Wish, just like Alomomola, a complete immunity to Water, and Heal Bell in exchange for no Regenerator. Slowbro can easily run Assault Vest to patch up his Special Defense and even use a Calm Mind set to provide a win condition for stall teams (types of teams Momo is used on)

My biggest issue with Momo lies in the fact that it can't do shit to perhaps the best offensive Spikes user in the tier, Roserade. Toxic? Roserade is immune. Trying to burn? Natural Cure says hell no. Hoping to pass a Wish? You risk getting KOed or having the receiver put to sleep. SpDef Roserade is even better equipped to handle Momo since that set commonly runs Giga Drain to maintain its health. Oh, and Roserade is an A rank Pokemon, so it should be something you encounter fairly often. Alomomola will never have issues taking physical attacks. Her issues lie with the fact that she gives so many sweepers a chance to setup without many drawbacks. Celebi, SubCM Raikou, CroCune, SubCM Keldeo, Reuniclus, SubCoil Zygarde, Toxicroak, LumDD/SD Haxorus, SubRoost Kyurem, and SubPetaya Empoleon. These are all A+, A, and A- rank Pokemon that Momo has no way of scaring out once they start to set up. (Raikou is the lone exception and it's a B+ rank Pokemon) Reuniclus, Toxicroak, and Empoleon can come in whenever they feel like it while the others simply have to avoid Toxic as they switch-in. There's also the simple fact that virtually any Taunt user is shutting it down without question. This would be stuff like Mew, Crobat, and Jellicent. Note Mew is S rank and Crobat is A rank. Alomomola definitely brings great qualities to the table, but it simply struggles against too many of the top threats to warrant a B+ ranking imo. B- just seems to suit it better.

 

[Talpr0ne]

In regards to Alomomola, I think B- Rank sounds fair. It has a pretty good niche in the tier; passing huge Wishes, checking a lot of physical threats, and Regenerator helps it stay healthy enough to pass Wishes, and with its endless recovery between Wish and Regenerator, Alomomola just can't die. It can be useful support to something like Mega Aggron or Cofagrigus and also be a nice physical wall, but its lack of Heal Bell or Aromatherapy along with no offensive presence at all do hinder its performance. Alomomola is also pretty one-dimensional, but it can be a useful way to handle things like Mienshao, Hawlucha, Krookodile, and Haxorus while in general providing decent support.

I could see Venomoth being a little higher, mainly because QuiverPass is such a cheap strategy. It can incapacitate one opponent, proceed to set up Quiver Dance boosts, and pass them to something like Zapdos or Chandelure and proceed to watch the opponent's team crumble. QuiverPass is still quite a lethal strategy with very strong special attackers like the aforementioned Zapdos and Chandelure, along with Tornadus-T, Keldeo, Nidoking, etc. But I don't have that much playtesting experience with Venomoth (or Vivillon either) so I'll refrain from posting more.

On another note, I'd like to call Electivire's placement on the list at all into question, let alone in D-Rank. I have always found Electivire to be a very mediocre Pokemon since its debut, and atm I don't see any reason to use it. Electivire is a very flawed Pokemon all around, and has been that way since DPP. Firstly, although Electivire has amazing coverage (hits 13 types super effectively iirc), it relies on low Base Power moves physically and on the special side, 95 Special Attack is not that remarkable. Because of this, Electivire cannot break through many teams well, frequently missing out on a lot of KOs, and because it is frail, which is another issue with it, it will usually die after failing to KO something. Electivire also relies on Motor Drive boosts if it plans on sweeping at all, and most faster opponents have a way to destroy it in one way or another. Bulkier targets have an easy time with Electivire, so it can very much struggle to get much done in most matches. Aside from that, Electivire is also a little suicidal, since Life Orb and Wild Charge recoil stack up on it very quickly, so as it tries to attack, it will quickly end its lifespan. If I wanted an Electric-type, I'd much sooner use Zapdos or Mega Manectric any day; they can't go mixed like Electivire, but they do a lot more each match and provide more reward as an Electric-type in general. Darmanitan, Mega Absol, and Magnezone are all much better wallbreakers, and can do more than Electivire could ever wish it did. Overall, I'd like to see Electivire removed from the list entirely, as I feel its niche is not significant enough even for D-Rank.

I think it's here just to warn the noobs.
Then again, if we do an E-rank, it would be the perfect place for it.

 

[C AllStar]

I think you have mistaken the largest problem of Alomomola. Its bulk is admitly great and it can indeed sit there and wall quite a lot of things. However, no one will let their physical mond attack a full health Alomomola unless it is Electrive lol. Instead, when facing those banded attackers, Alomomola is usually the one to switch in. Unlike NU, where only Sawk is the bander that is able to 2HKO it, Alomomola falls to many common physical powerhouses in UU.

252 Atk Choice Band Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 258-304 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 269-317 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Either Reckless or band 2HKOs after rocks, protect sucks though.

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 274-324 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
52+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 184-218 (34.4 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Guaranteed 2HKO anyway after rocks.

252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 268-316 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 294-346 (55 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Wrecked

252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 294-348 (55 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
2HKOed by Bolt Strike, though not a bad initial switch in.

252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 261-307 (48.8 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Needs Protect to have a chance to survive.

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 226-266 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Saved by Protect again.

252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 276-325 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 184-217 (34.4 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Almost garunteed 2HKO even with Knock Off, needs protect to survive.

Basically, Alomomola lacks the key resistance which makes it fail to wall the strongest physical attackers in the tier bar Darmanitan. Alomomola may be a good initial switch in to them, but you still need something to take their strongest STAB moves since they are the best options against mola except for Victini, which is bad for teams using mola as their defensive backbone. I have been arguing for Alomomola being S Rank in BW RU until i was convinced by this argument. Having something to take a STAB move from CB Heracross is hard enough I guess. Only capable of taking on weaker attackers such as scarfers isn't impressive for me. This also leads to its main problem.

Alomomola is famed of being a huge set up bait for long. Scald and unstabbed Knock Off is pathetically weak that lets anything using sub or lum berry sets up with ease. 30% chance of burning isn't reliable either.
Aftee set up...

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 446-526 (83.5 - 98.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 473-559 (88.5 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 330-388 (61.7 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 259-306 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 268-316 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Jolly DD Lum, the weakest set)

+2 252+ Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 348-409 (65.1 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 520-613 (97.3 - 114.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (lol burn)

Things can even boost higher if they get sub or lum. Scald is so weak that it cannot break Mienshao's sub 100% of the time and it isn't even reliable at all on burning. Any thing that loses to EVERY SINGLE BOOSTING SWEEPER unless some matchups with extreme luck shouldn't be that high. I really love using Alomomola and RegenWish is something really incredible that I can even use Alomomol on offensive teams as a defensive backbone and supporter. However, it simply can't stand to the much larger pressure here in UU. It should be B- Rank.

 

[KM]

I'd like to weigh in on the whole Alomomola discussion. My issue with her is that I see no reason to use her outside of other existing pokes in UU.

As has been discussed previously, she is fairly tanky. However, the extreme brute force of the metagame at the minute doesn't even allow her to take some really powerful hits.

I guess my main gripe with her as a wall on a team is that she doesn't really counter much of anything fully. When you run chesnaught, outside of him being a good tank and offering lots of utility to the team, you also know that you have a pretty consistent check to crawdaunt, so you can tick that off the list. When you run defensive zapdos, you know you have a good check against Tornadus-T and Hawlucha. When you run Qwilfish, you know you have a good check against heracross, mienshao, darm, and victini. If you run almomola, what are you really countering? Sure, lots of things can't do a ton of damage to you, but basically every physical attacker in tier falls into one of two camps with Alomomola.

Camp 1: They can't really touch you nor boost reliably, but they can just U-turn right out and switch into something that takes advantage of your lack of ability to do anything offensively and set up. (See, Zygarde, SubSD crawdaunt, CM Virizion, Roserade, SD Mew, anything with hazards).

Camp 2: They might not be able to OHKO you, but they can either reliably 2HKO you after minimal hazards or previous damage and/or can boost up while completely ignoring your lack of ability to do anything offensively and proceed to sweep your team.

You see, UU teambuilding is rather restrictive at the minute - you absolutely need counters to the big threats of the metagame, and you can't really afford to have a wish/passer whose sole role is to wish/pass, be a cleric, and not really stop anything from countering.

Let's compare Alomomola with defensive florges, briefly.

With 252 HP/ 252+ Def Alomomola, you're looking at final defensive stats of 534 HP, 259 Defence, and 126 SpD.

With 252 HP/ 252+ Def Florges, you're looking at final defensive stats of 360 HP, 245 Defence, and 344 SpD.

So, on the face of it, these stats look fairly equal. Alomomola has far higher HP and about the same Defence as Florges. In the simplest terms, it means it's going to be taking around 1.5x as many physical attacks as Florges, ignoring typing and all else. However, Florges has massively higher special defence, meaning that it'll be taking far less damage from special attacks.

Their movepools are shockingly similar as well - they both run a heal bell type move, wish, protect, and a basic special attack that has a decent chance to ruin the sweep of a physical/special sweeper, respectively.

However, there are three main points where they differ.

1). Typing. Put simply, pure water is not a wonderful defensive typing. The only important resist you get from it on the physical side is fire. In contrast, fairy is godly typing defensively, allowing immunity to some of the strongest attacks in the tier as well as to dragon tail, and providing resistances for several more, far more common offensive moves (Bug, Fighting, Dark).

2). Abilities. Alomomola obviously wins this one hands down. Florges' abilities are nigh useless, compared with Regenerator, which is one of the best defensive abilities in the game.

3). Offensive pressure. This is the point that makes all of Florges' shortcomings and all of Alomomola's positives completely irrelevant. Florges can absolutely wreck things with uninvested moonblast. The move has a high base power, has good offensive typing in order to heat most of the physical threats super effectively, and comes off a massive 115 base SpA. In comparison, Alomomola has a piddling 40 SpA with which she fires off a low BP STAB that won't even break the sub of most physical threats. Moreover, it's of absolutely no threat to anyone else on the team switching in, meaning that special attackers, no matter how frail, can just as easily switch into Alomomola and start setting up themselves. Moreover, it means that Florges can actually counter things, as she has the threat of killing them if they don't predict correctly, whereas all Alomomola means for a mon is that they have to switch out into something and get free momentum.

To sum up - In order for a mon to be an effective member of a UU team in the current meta, it has to be more than just a meatshield and a cleric. It needs to actually hard counter or at least check a majority of the physical threats in the metagame without being complete setup fodder for everything else in the tier. It's like if you had to use a Chansey, but you couldn't learn Seismic toss.

Look at all the premier defensively oriented pokemon in the UU metagame at the minute. Zapdos, Krookodile, Snorlax, Latias, Chesnaught, Crobat, Mega Blastoise, Swampert, Defensive Arcanine, Mega Aggron, Zygarde, Florges... there's a common connective thread. It's not their ability to take three scarfed Mienshao HJKs to the face, or the ability to not get 2HKOd by any of victini's moves after Stealth Rocks. At the end of the day, those things aren't what matter. What they all share is the ability to deal reasonable, or, in some cases, massive, damage back to the things that they're defending against. Those who can't reliably hit the entire metagame have a reliable phazing move as well. This is what makes a premier UU defensive poke, and what makes Alomomola not one of these.

 

[ryanr554]

Does Claydol really deserve B- rank? Most of the stuff in S and A can reliably beat it and the move Knock Off becoming so common hasn't helped it one bit. Not only is it super effective but it makes it lose its only form of recovery in leftovers which is sad enough anyway. Fairies have becomes a more reliable counters to the fighting types that once plagued UU as well.

On top of that, while Rapid Spin is still an excellent move to have, it kind of isn't as great now due to the 10 times more reliable Defog and it isn't like Claydol was the best Rapid Spinner anyway.

Its offensive presence is as pathetic as ever which leaves it as Set up fodder as well.

I think it sits more comfortably in C- rank if only for the fact it can either Spin and set up SR on the same set or set up Screens.

 

[KM]

Does Claydol really deserve B- rank? Most of the stuff in S and A can reliably beat it and the stuff Knock Off becoming so common hasn't helped it one bit. Not only is it super effective but it makes it lose its only form of recovery in leftovers which is sad enough anyway. Fairies have becomes a more reliable counters to the fighting types that once plagued UU as well.

On top of that, while Rapid Spin is still an excellent move to have, it kind of isn't as great now due to the 10 times more reliable Defog and it isn't like Claydol was the best Rapid Spinner anyway.

Its offensive presence is as pathetic as ever which leaves it as Set up fodder as well.

I think it sits more comfortably in C- rank if only for the fact it can either Spin and set up SR on the same set or set up Screens.

Complete agreement on this. Last gen, it was hovering around low C/D rank, and I really don't see how this gen's changes have helped it out whatsoever, for the reasons you listed. If anything, its two main niches (ability to set up Stealth Rocks and ability to remove hazards) have both become less important, due to the increased variety of things that can viably set up rocks as well as the increased variety of things who can remove them.

 

[Toljik]

Claydol was completely shat on by Gen 5 UU players, who even made an E-rank just to put it there. What did it get in Gen 6?

 

[radianthero156]

alomomola's defense when using 252+ def is 284, not 259. and when you're using alomomola, you're checking mega aggron, physic victini, darmanitan, hippowdon, entei, metagross, mega aerodactyl, archeops, rhyperior and that's all i can remember just from my head; just a note, kitten milk

 

[Ruffles]

I've been using:

Alomomola @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Knock Off
- Scald
- Toxic

I've been using this set for two weeks and trust me protect is not really needed if you use Alomomola as a hit and run cleric.

I think its unfair pitting Alomomola against mega houndoom as personally why would i try and stall such a powerfull special attacker when i have poor Spdef the logical option would be to switch into a reliable counter or check

For mega Absol if the opponent wants to setup to OHKO Alomomola they will need to be at +6

+6 252 Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 483-568 (90.4 - 106.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+5 252 Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 423-498 (79.2 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

In order to set up the opponent will need to swords dance for three turns which gives me 3 free turns to hit with scald, which has a 30% chance to burn. If I am unlucky enough to get a burn I then get one more chance after sucker punch which only has 43.8% chance to OHKO to burn it... what more likely me getting a burn in 3-4 turns or you getting to plus 6 without being burned ;)

Hawlucha yes is harder to counter but that why you have other team members

On the other hand though

How does Chansey counter the threats that were mentioned

Without Protect you are missing on SO much stuff:

1- Free turn of Leftovers
2- Free toxic damage
3- Wish comes true no matter what (Unless phazing, but another member will get it as long as it doesn't die from possible hazards)
4- Winning mind games (only if you CAN win mind games) like switching, HJK, etc.

Protect is such a good move on Alomomola that I don't see Scald being a better move on it.

Scald has 0.1% chance of removing sub from first Scald, so Sub/Scald, SD/Scald, Sub/Scald, SD/Scald, Sub/Scald, SD/Scald. Now you may be 25% health but you are +6 gauranteed no burn.

+6 252 Atk Mega Absol Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 585-688 (109.5 - 128.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Sub + SD may seem irrational, but all Mega Absol really needs is Knock Off and Iron Tail/Fire Blast.

As for Chansey, Seismic Toss removes Sub, and does ~37% normally, while Knock Off isn't 100% chance of 3HKO. Chansey Wins.
Against Mega Doom, Chansey wins.
Against Hawlucha, I'll be honest, the only way to win is to get some parahax.

tested alomomola and though it's acceptable, it's not as good as you guys are making it to be. first off, it sure is sturdy enough to take hits from zygarde, haxorus, darmanitan, hawlucha, etc.

however, what can it do to them? after a boost, zygarde, haxorus and heracross will 2HKO alomomola, and it can only either use toxic, which will result in those pokemons killing 3-4 mons of your team until the poison takes effect, or hope for a 30% scald burn.

still, being an excellent pivot for fire or ground pokemons and its large wishes + regenerator is enough for putting it at C/C- i think. and don't compare chansey to alomomola, they're entirely different pokemons; in fact, they have good synergy when combined

Although I don't support Alomomola for A-, or even B+, I definitely think C or C- is unfair, as it is really good.

I think B- is honestly a fair ranking.

Also supporting Venomoth to move up

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Without Protect you are missing on SO much stuff:

1- Free turn of Leftovers
2- Free toxic damage
3- Wish comes true no matter what (Unless phazing, but another member will get it as long as it doesn't die from possible hazards)
4- Winning mind games (only if you CAN win mind games) like switching, HJK, etc.

Protect is such a good move on Alomomola that I don't see Scald being a better move on it.

Scald has 0.1% chance of removing sub from first Scald, so Sub/Scald, SD/Scald, Sub/Scald, SD/Scald, Sub/Scald, SD/Scald. Now you may be 25% health but you are +6 gauranteed no burn.

+6 252 Atk Mega Absol Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 585-688 (109.5 - 128.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Sub + SD may seem irrational, but all Mega Absol really needs is Knock Off and Iron Tail/Fire Blast.

As for Chansey, Seismic Toss removes Sub, and does ~37% normally, while Knock Off isn't 100% chance of 3HKO. Chansey Wins.
Against Mega Doom, Chansey wins.
Against Hawlucha, I'll be honest, the only way to win is to get some parahax.



Although I don't support Alomomola for A-, or even B+, I definitely think C or C- is unfair, as it is really good.

I think B- is honestly a fair ranking.

Also supporting Venomoth to move up

Yo, in what scenario is chansey being hit by a knock off = ''chansey wins''?