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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Limitless
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Vaporeon and Quagsire can wall it sure but the other 3 Pokemon you just mentioned all lose to it (unless Swampert carries roar and even then it is taking a shit ton of damage from a boosted scald) Suicune sets up on Chansey and Florges all day in any case.
Florges, Chanseg and Swampert are just set-up bait for Suicune. And although Vaporeon and Quagsire wall it, they can't do anything back and get pressure stalled pretty easily.
I don't really see how Quagsire can beat Suicune since Quagsire can only Recover 16 times and while Suicune only does 33% max to Physically Defensive Quagsire with Scald (not to mention the potential burns), Quagsire can't really do anything back while it gets stalled out of Recover PP.
Gastrodon, Toxicroak, Jellicent, and Vaporeon, on the other hand, are immune to Scald, so they fare much better against Suicune. I cba to figure out if they can actually beat it one-on-one or are simply PP stalled by it, but whatever.
Edit: yeah, I was unaware (heh) that Unaware affects Pressure.
Gastrodon, Toxicroak, Jellicent, and Vaporeon, on the other hand, are immune to Scald, so they fare much better against Suicune. I cba to figure out if they can actually beat it one-on-one or are simply PP stalled by it, but whatever.
Edit: yeah, I was unaware (heh) that Unaware affects Pressure.
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Well, pressure doesn't affect recover because it's target is Quagsire (ie it still gets 16 pp). That being said, Unaware Quagsire (the ability you should be running) is beaten by all variants of Suicune (stalled out and burned), and Water Absorb Quagsire, while able to beat the rest talk cm variants of Suicune, lose to any variant of Suicune utilizing a more offensive set.
But yeah, I agree that Quagsire is a terrible response to Suicune.
Despite my love of Mega-Amphy, because it will always receive first hit, I have to admit that it is worn down more quickly, despite its bulk. damage is damage, and it racks up quickly.
It is not, and yet its one I faced a lot when using CroCune. Unaware means calm mind is negated to nothing, takes little damage from scald, and will Curse setup until EQ murders. It's not a great response, but it's still one I got annoyed with.
Preferable yes, should your team need something more specific, but not preferable in the sense that you cannot achieve all the utility at once that manetric is famed for.
I certainly don't under-estimate zapdos
Basically, unless you are Keldeo, a ghost type, or a psyshock user with access to 101hp subs, you have no business running SubCM because you just cannot bypass chansey without being seismic toss'd to death while you do nothing to the blob. Raikou has none of those traits, though it can at least volt switch. Specs is a reasonable item, but scarf is garbage due to its low damage output and inability to revenge threats that aren't very heavily weakened first
Scarf and steel trapping are almost all but unviable period on magnezone. There are no two ways about this, and they've already been proven on various threads why.
Eeyore had the correct answer on mega-ampharos.
+6 252+ Atk Quagsire Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 351-414 (86.8 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
No.
Okay this calc is extremely irrelevant for a multitude of reasons, first, and most importantly, curse is a sub-par move on Quagsire, as the optimum set involves Scald / Recover / Toxic / Earthquake (it lets you burn physical attackers and status special attackers with Toxic to wear them down). There is also the fact that Quagsire will never be running any attack investment, because even the curse set is first and foremost a wall that ignores the opposition's stat boosts. There is also the fact that if Quagsire has gotten to +6 (6 turns of sitting in front of scald, assuming you are unaware, which is by far it's best ability), there is an 88% chance that it is burned, so a more relevant calc is:
+6 4 Atk burned Quagsire Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 123-145 (30.4 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
The damage output is low enough (never a 3HKO) that Suicune can continue to rest and PP stall Quagsire. So when Quagsire is using a sub-optimum set, it can stalemate Suicune (lose eventually, but it will take a long time).
The 5 pokemon listed as responses to Suicune for it to drop out of S rank were Florges/Vaporeon/Swampert/Chansey/Quagsire, and I'll add in Toxicroak for the sake of adding a viable threat that can give Suicune trouble.
Florges- This Walls more offensive variants of Suicune, but as others have stated, can't really do anything to the rest talk set, and is, in fact, set up bait for it.
Chansey- Same as above
Swampert- This actually loses to all variants of Suicune, I can't think of a single situation where it counters it.
Quagsire- As shown above, a sub par set gives rest talk some trouble but still loses.
Vaporeon- Walls Rest talk, is set up bait for, and eventually loses to offensive CM
Toxicroak- Walls the rest talk set and uses it for set up, can do alright vs offensive sets, I would say this is the best response to Suicune.
So as you can see, of the 5 pokemon that pretty much all special water-types, and in some of these cases, all special attackers, struggle with are all actually likely to lose to Suicune depending on the set, barring Toxicroak. This is what makes Suicune so good (and worthy of S rank imo), it is a win con for stall that is capable of ending Stall v Stall matches, while still have a place on balance or bulky offense with the same set due to how hard it is to counter. This is also coupled with the fact that Suicune is more than capable of running offensive sets that fit better on more offensive teams. If anything I would say Suicune is underrated, simply due to the fact that it is so hard to kill, and even before it sets up it is easy to switch into thanks to scald.
I was stupid, and realized the couple times I faced Quagsire, I went 252 special attack, no defense in, so the calc was
+6 252 Atk Quagsire Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 433-511 (107.1 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I know, I'm incredibly dumb, and I remember changing it, and as soon as I did, I never saw another Quagsire, but the memory stuck with me
Alright, I resind my statement, and will at least try Suicune again. I remember I thought he was amazing until I encountered those pokemon. I only ever used RestTalk.
For the record, my "problem" with Swampert was Stealth Rock/Roar. Chansey was Wish/Protect, Florges was the increasingly common CM/Moonblast, which kept haxing my special attack down, increasing damage, and making me increasingly less effective.
With the information represented to me, I agree Suicune should be S ranking. Maybe with increased use, other pokemon like Toxicroak will get more use? I never see him anymore.
There are still some Dark-types in UU, most notably fellow special wall Umbreon. If Raikou locks itself into Shadow Ball, Umbreon and Chesnaught wall it. The latter resists Thunderbolt as well, while Manectric simply Overheats its way past Chesnaught. Krookodile can come in on Shadow Ball and proceed to OHKO with Earthquake, as can Zygarde. Both must be wary of HP Ice, but both Raikou and Mega Manectric carry this move. There may not be many threatening Normal-types aside from Chansey in UU, but needless to say it's a common Pokémon that can easily put a stop to Raikou if it's locked into Shadow Ball. It's simply not a useful move, especially not when compared to either Zapdos's Heat Wave or Mega Manectric's Overheat.
Porygon-Z is an underrated threat in UU right now. I've been experimenting on Pory-Z quite extensively now and I'm quite settled with its Choice Specs set. Indeed, it has power enough to 2HKO more than half of the metagame but what really just holds it back is its subpar speed and typing. Nevertheless, 90 base speed isn't half bad, outspeeding most walls and some offensive threats as such, it's good for wallbreaking and muscling through teams. However, a problem faced for Pory-Z is it's tricky to bring in because of its typing and less-than-stellar defenses. A solution is to bring it from a volt-turn move. A slow one in particular allows you to set-up opportunities for Pory-Z to come in and do work. Now, if its speed becomes a problem for your team, then one can opt to provide paralysis support. Slowbro is a good ally, usually handling well of Pokemon that threatens it.
Now of course, there are other sets to choose from besides specs. A scarf will repair its subpar speed making it a powerful revenge-killer and an all purpose hard-hitter. On the other hand, the Nasty Plot set is great for wallbreaking and the Agility set, for late-game cleaning. Heck, one can even go for a double-dance strategy; use NP on slower teams or Agility on faster ones, and proceed to wreck.
What I'm trying to say is that I just think Porygon-Z is tiered a bit too far down. It has great potential for a B class Pokemon, a B- to be exact. It irks me to see Pory-Z along the lines of Delphox and Malamar.
Now of course, there are other sets to choose from besides specs. A scarf will repair its subpar speed making it a powerful revenge-killer and an all purpose hard-hitter. On the other hand, the Nasty Plot set is great for wallbreaking and the Agility set, for late-game cleaning. Heck, one can even go for a double-dance strategy; use NP on slower teams or Agility on faster ones, and proceed to wreck.
What I'm trying to say is that I just think Porygon-Z is tiered a bit too far down. It has great potential for a B class Pokemon, a B- to be exact. It irks me to see Pory-Z along the lines of Delphox and Malamar.
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choiced porygon-z is generally outclassed, i dont see the point of using it. specs is just a magnezone with, less power and much, much, much worse bulk and type. scarf is acceptable, but i'd rather take heracross or gardevoir or hydreigon, etc.
however, ive been using porygon-z with agillity + nasty plot and it's amazing. all it really needs is tri attack and shadow ball. if you pair it with something to cripple chansey, you're set. i think it could be B-
however, ive been using porygon-z with agillity + nasty plot and it's amazing. all it really needs is tri attack and shadow ball. if you pair it with something to cripple chansey, you're set. i think it could be B-
I don't really think it's that outclassed tbh. It may be frailer than Magnezone, but it has way more coverage options available to it, such as BoltBeam, Shadow Ball, Dark Pulse, and Tri Attack. The magic with Porygon-Z is Adaptability Tri Attack. Magnezone can 2HKO most of the metagame with its movepool, but Porygon-Z can 2HKO a good portion of the meta with just Tri Attack. Defensive things like Slowking, M-Aggron, Suicune, and Snorlax, all of which are very bulky Pokemon that either resist Normal-type or are very bulky Specially, are all 2HKOed by Tri Attack. I know that there are Ghost-types and really, really bulky things like Registeel, Shuckle, Eviolite Chansey, and lolCarbink who can take Tri Attacks all day, but teammates can get rid of the latter and Pory-Z's coverage moves can get rid of the former.
Also, I don't recommend trying this, but try throwing Hyper Beam on Porygon-Z. I guarantee you'll like it.
well, it has coverage, but objectively it doesnt matter, as magnezone still 2HKOs all with its stabs and hp grass. also, of those you mentioned, i want calcs for 252 hp/sdef meggron and snorlax, i dont think tri attack 2HKOs the 2, but magnezone does. as for ice beam, i'd say it's at least a risky move. while it does like 70% to chansey, an offensive player can take advantage from it by sacrificing something, then settinh up sd crawdaunt or dd haxorus as you recharge.
I did the calcs with a Modest nature. Sorry for not stating previously
Porygon-Z fits in B- IMO.
Scarf set is also very viable as it will outspeed many pokemons, I run Scarf + Modest and that not only hits hard but outspeeds all of the relevant pokemons without Scarf/some sort of speed boost.
I'd argue about Porygon-Z's defense, it is decent, but not horrible, for example it can survive Hydriegon's unboosted 252 SpA Draco Meteor.
the scarf set can check many pokemons and is good revenge killer while the Specs set is an excellent wallbreaker. LO 3 attacks + Sub is a good set too, as Porygon-Z has very good coverage and should force out switches, definitely B-
Scarf set is also very viable as it will outspeed many pokemons, I run Scarf + Modest and that not only hits hard but outspeeds all of the relevant pokemons without Scarf/some sort of speed boost.
I'd argue about Porygon-Z's defense, it is decent, but not horrible, for example it can survive Hydriegon's unboosted 252 SpA Draco Meteor.
the scarf set can check many pokemons and is good revenge killer while the Specs set is an excellent wallbreaker. LO 3 attacks + Sub is a good set too, as Porygon-Z has very good coverage and should force out switches, definitely B-
Just a few games into the tier shift, but I think it's safe to say that Galvantula and Salamence, at the least, are gonna be B+ and up in ranking. Galvantula has some mean coverage, even better if you drop Sticky Web, and while Salamence is walled pretty cold by 252/252+ Florges, that's about the only thing that safely walls him. I think Scarfmoxiemence is gonna be scary in a way he never could in OU.
Now that galvantula is in the tier isn't using leavanny kind of pointless? I think he should be unranked now
Also you forgot to write alomomola's name next to his icon.
Also you forgot to write alomomola's name next to his icon.
I am not sure, that Salamence deserves an S ranking (i would find A better for it). It is weak to stealth Rocks, is prone to status and lacks power to get through defensive walls like slowbro, suicune and florges. I just find Haxorus to bebetter in uu, because those few points in speed dont make that big of a difference (still matters, just not as much as gen 5 ou). Scarfmoxie will probably be great late-game cleaner.
I mean that Cloyser should not be S-Rank, Im thinking more like A- or A. Despite The sheer power of shell smash it is very predictable! SR, Priority and phazers can all stop cloyster in its tracks, and the agrueebly top scarfer will outspeed Standard SS cloyster (Jolly Mienshao).
Metagross can survive any hit besides +2 252+ Hydro pump and almost garantie a revenge kill with Meteor mash+Bullet punch. A-Vest versions laugh at even +3 252+ Hydro pumps (Dont forget that Special Cloyster is far from as good as Physical or Mixed cloyster) Even a +6 252+ Icicle spear cannot OHKO standard metagross. Slowbro and Suicune will always avoid the 2HKO from 2+ 252+ rock blast(0.4% chance on slowbro, but that not going to happen). Unburden Hawlucha and Hitmonlee is a thing, as both outspeed +2 Cloyster after unburden activates and can OHKO it with High Jump kick (or Close combat with Hitmonlee). Also Mega-blastoise can OHKO with Aura Sphere or phaze with Roar. phyical defensive Mega-aggron and Doublade will both avoid the 2HKO from the unlikely +6 252+ Icicle spear.
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