Yet another discussion of MixCario

Okay, I'm going to try again with this one. Last time was not great, because most everyone posted saying "mixcario is a dumb name !!!" or "this is a dumb idea !!!" or "you're dumb !!!". Anyway, let's get the discussion rolling. The idea here is Lucario as a mixed attacker. Here's the proposed set:

Mixed v1:
Lucario @ Life Orb
Inner Focus, Mild
-Close Combat
-Hidden Power [Ice]
-Shadow Ball
-Stone Edge

EVs: 80 Atk/204 SpA/224 Spe


Mixed v2:
Lucario @ Life Orb
Inner Focus, Naughty
-Close Combat
-Crunch
-Swords Dance
-Hidden Power [Ice]

EVs: 80 Atk/204 SpA/224 Spe

80 attack is the minimum required to OHKO Blissey with Close Combat. 224 Speed gives 272, enough to outspeed 270s and those who think they can squeak by the 270s with 271. The rest is in Special Attack because HP Ice and Shadow Ball are his weakest attacks (and needed to take down things like Hippowdon and Cresselia). So far the truest counter I've found for this set is Swampert, who is neutral or resists every attack and has STAB Earthquake. In the choice between v1 and v2: v2 is much more sweep-oriented, with the ability to 2HKO Skarm after a Swords Dance (yes, it only needs 80 Atk EVs to guarantee a 2HKO if Skarm has Shed Shell), whereas v1 is designed to remove some walls, cause some confusion as they attempt to predict you in vain, and then make your exit. And Hidden Power Ice does more to Hippowdon than a non-SD Close Combat (damage is pretty close after SD). However, v1 can significantly harm Cresselia without setting up (thanks to Shadow Ball), while even an SD Crunch doesn't 2HKO every time. I've used both sets to success.

CALCULATIONS:
Stone Edge v. BulkyDos: 57.03%-66.93%

Shadow Ball v. Supporting Cresselia (physical): 46.37%-54.66%

Hidden Power Ice v. Gliscor: 116.67%-137.29%

Close Combat v. MixPert: 39.65%-46.63%

Hidden Power Ice v. Hippowdon: 55.48%-65.24%

Close Combat v. Blissey (148 HP EV): 104.07%-122.38%


More calculations will be posted with time. Discuss. And don't comment on the name please.

REGARDING BLAZE KICK V. HIDDEN POWER FIRE:

Blaze Kick v. Skarmory: 32.63% - 38.32%
Hidden Power Fire v. Skarmory:
71.56% - 84.13%

Blaze Kick v. Forretress:
61.58% - 72.60%
Hidden Power Fire v. Forretress:
151.98% - 178.81%

The difference is less meaningful on Forretress, but Skarmory could Whirlwind you out and Roost up if you're 3HKOing it. Also, with Blaze Kick, this'd be a physical set with Shadow Ball for no apparent reason (and basically an awful set). The point is to find a balance between important physical and special attacks to cover main threats. Hidden Power Fire distinctly covers more threats than Blaze Kick (sans Bronzong, who usually runs SpD), but Ice is preferable in 99% of situations anyway (got Magnezone?).
 
You're dumb! ...Jokes :)


Just wondering, is the SE on Bulkydos damage calc AFTER Intimidate?

It looks like it nails quite a few important threats. It's a shame it can't take a hit back.
 
Well... I posted this version of my mixcario in the New moveset thread.

I've just been testing this Mixcario set. It works VERY well as a late game sweeper.

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
Nature: Naughty
EVs: 252 Attack / 96 Speed / 160 Special Attack
*Close Combat
*Dark Pulse
*Hidden Power [Ice]
*Agility

Sweep with Close Combat... it hurts. Dark Pulse hits the ghosts and works well with your boosted speed, which is enough to outrun modest max speed scarfgar... which you slaughter with dark pulse. HP Ice nails Gliscor, lukes most popular switch in and the most common physical wall now to handle fighters. It also OHKOs Garchomp, who usually survives extremespeed on the other set.
Same as yours, but you can drop the speed and sweep better thanks to agility. Lucario HAS to get over that fact that something will wall him. It's just too hard to pull off a mixed set with his low speed. Agility fixes that. Even Mixape has a couple things it can't hurt (Dragons...).

Thanks to agility, if you can do it on the switch, luke has 350 attack, 480 speed, and 306 special attack and a life orb to make his Close Combats hit like their from almost 500 attack.
 
Aw... too bad it can't touch Swampert. Why not have HP Grass instead, it'd still get the Hippo and it'd do a number on Swampert too. Only dumb people switch Dragons into Lucario anyways, (fearing HP Ice or Dragon Pulse from the specs set) and Stone Edge gets them.
 

Colonel M

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To me, the main problem about Mixcario is that it seems quite outclassed by the Swords Dance sweeper set. The only difference is is using Hidden Power Grass (or Ice) to take advantage of certain Pokemon.

Hidden Power Ice should be used a bit more than Grass, as Gliscor is a bit more threatening to Lucario since Gliscor can Roost. Fire really has no merits... I think. If you're using a Fire move, Blaze Kick has that use. I'd actually scrap Stone Edge for Blaze Kick if it's Bulky Steels that you're worried about.
 
Sure it gets walled by swampert but hp ice hits gliscor and other ground walls which I believe is more important than hitting swampert.

Also Blaze kick > hp fire.
 
Or do I fear Gliscor and Garchomp, who wall me with HP Fire?
As far as this question goes, Garchomp will almost *always* outspeed and OHKO you, so he doesn't really apply. Unless you're talking about catching him on a switch-in. Also, your team should already have a couple of other Ice users to dispatch Gliscor, anyway. So for specific threats, HP Fire would probably be preferred, but Ice might still have better general use.

Yeah, I kinda see your dilemma. >.<
 
HP Grass would hit absolutely ONLY Swampert, while leaving him vulnerable to say, Garchomp. HP Fire will hit Skarmory harder than Blaze Kick and has an easily guaranteed OHKO on Forretress (which I believe Blaze Kick does not, coming it at some 99.x%). The question of Hidden Power is really dependent on your team. And Lucario has the worst moveslot syndrome ever.

Swords Dancer fears the likes of Gliscor and Skarmory, while Mixy is designed to take them out (depending on HP Ice/Fire of course).

Stone Edge is almost non-negotiable, especially when using HP Fire, as it's the only thing capable of really handling Gyarados while also handling Salamence (who could get the better of you with HP Fire).
 

Colonel M

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Er, how does Swords Dance Lucario fear Skarmory? The fact that if Skarmory comes in on Swords Dance and on Stealth Rock, Skarmory is a good gonner. Gliscor on the other hand can be a real instance, when Hidden Power Ice is a decent consideration (and IIRC does OHKO with some investment and of course a neutral nature as well as Life Orb).

(Er, I'd still use Blaze Kick over Hidden Power Fire any day no offense).
 
Going physical is kind of pointless without Swords Dance, since most of the walls you'll want to be taking down are physical. In fact, your set is likely unable to 2HKO Hippowdon with HP Ice. However, Agility seems a worthy option considering Lucario's only mediocre offensive stat is its Speed. It'd probably work better on a special oriented Life Orb set though, with something like Aura Sphere//Shadow Ball//Hidden Power Ice//Agility.

Just a note, I picked Shadow Ball over Dark Pulse so Heracross doesn't get a free switch-in.
 
RaikouLover, your Lucario set is rather useful. I've used it, and it clears away many of the things that switch into Lucario, although Gyarados still works well against it. As an alternative to CC, Aura Sphere could be used and just pump up SAtk and get some HP EV's to spare in the process, the pure special variant does get somewhat walled by Blissey, but with SR/spikes support may be able to 2HKO with Life Orb.
 
I don't think it needs that much speed, to be honest, all the stuff you did calcs for are walls, why not reduce the speed for more atk so that CC will 2 hitko skarm?

Just make sure its faster than gliscor/t-tar and maybe heatran?
 
Just like last time, there are a couple of damage calcs but no comparison to other Lucario sets' damage, let alone an actual helpful list of what this lets Lucario get past that it won't normally, which is really the only point of a mixed set.

That's your job, not ours, and again, it's missing.
 
The point isn't to make it the new standard set. If I wanted to do that I'd have spent a long time preparing this argument. One variant of Lucario or another can get past any of these walls, but Mixed can get past the most in one set (and that's the point).

272 speed to beat MixMence and other 270/271ers.
 

Earthworm

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In my opinion go more on the Atk side, Crunch over Shadow Ball (or at least Dark Pulse) and stay with HP Ice. Gliscor is the most annoying problem for Lucario and Hippowdon will -probably- beat you regardless (don't quote me on this I haven't checked).

Mixcario should be either all special + Close Combat or all physical + HP Ice imho. The dark move is definitely in question though. Damage is basically equal on Celebi, special helps more with Cresselia and Starmie but physical helps more with Dusknoirs (most at least) and Mismagius (and most other Psychics). Stone Edge is practically only useful against Gyarados and Zapdos if HP Ice is present (Stealth Rock deals enough to others for HP Ice to finish most things), but that doesn't mean it is bad I guess.

Oh and about the Blaze Kick discussion, its much more useful on Grasses than Steels.
 
id def go hp ice over hp fire, since skarm and forry cant switch in consistently on LO cc

also the agility set is cool :3
 
Still not as good as mixape, and thats the problem. A nasty plotted flamethrower always ohkos gliscor, he only needs 24 attack evs to ohko bliss half of the time, and a neutral grass knot will ohko hippowdon about half the time. Nasty plot can be foregone for hp ice for dragons. Finally, infernape outspeeds all base 100s, which is undeniably a good thing to have.

I still feel lucario is better off going all physical or all special.
 

david stone

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Is the OHKO on Blissey really worth using Close Combat over Aura Sphere? That lets you shift EVs to Special Attack, at which point Stone Edge seems kind of useless, considering it's entirely for Gyarados (thanks to HP Ice). Alternately you could use 3 physical moves and HP Ice for Gliscor.
 
Decent set, for Swampert you can always run HP Grass, it is a decent option beleive me, I run it on my SpecsLuke lead to kill unaware Swampert opponents, and it works almost all of time (unless they know I carry HP Grass).
 

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