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Metagame ZeroUsed Metagame Discussion

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Xayah

KA-KOOO!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Quick drops have been released! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usage-based-tier-update-for-july-2018-for-real-this-time-sep-138.3639170/page-6#post-7903369
Going by Antar's past statement about second month quick drops, the cutoff point was 2.28%! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usage-based-tier-update-for-january-2018-mar-changes-696.3625266/page-29#post-7710483

Our quick drops are:
From PU
Granbull - 1.477%
Probopass - 2.278%
Stoutland - 1.456%
From NU
Sandslash - 1.502% (Drastic tier shifts rule; Sandslash rose from ZU to NU without significant enough usage in PU that month [2.399%], so therefore it drops from NU to ZU)
Confirming that this is correct and tagging The Immortal and Kris to implement on our ladder (and I think TI also needs to say something regarding this in Snake)
 
Hello everyone ! This is the first time I post !
I would like to suggest this set :


Shiftry @ Life Orb / Grassium Z
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Energy Ball / Giga Drain / Leaf Storm
- Extrasensory
- Nasty Plot

This set is specially oriented. Dark Pulse and Energy Ball are the STAB moves which hit mons such as Grumpig, Beheyeem, Gourgeist L, Metang, Golem, Silvally Water. Extrasensory is a good coverage move that hit Fighting and Poison types such as Mareanie, Silvally Poison. Finally, Nasty Plot is a good set-up move that allow Shiftry to do a lot of OHKO. Giga Drain is a good option to recover some HP, but its lack of power is significant. Leaf Storm, on the paper, is really good, but the fact that you lose SpA for each hit is significant too. You may use Grassium Z with Leaf Storm to destroy one mon at +2. You can play Sucker Punch but you need to sacrifice some bulk, play Hasty nature with 4 EVs in Atk.
This set main drawbacks are the fact that it needs to set up one NP to be dangerous, its 80 speed that leaves him revenge killed by priorities (but resisted one), Choice Scarf, and faster threats. Its SpA is only 90 so it could be sometimes weak to reach an KO. Finally, its type, quite good offensively, but really bad defensively coupled with a bad bulk let him easily killed.



Here are some calcs
+2 252 SpA Shiftry Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 20+ SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 270-318 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Dark Pulse vs. +1 80 HP / 0 SpD Grumpig: 328-385 (102.1 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Extrasensory vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Silvally-Poison: 367-434 (105.7 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Golem: 1144-1357 (314.2 - 372.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb
Shiftry Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Beheeyem: 549-647 (155.5 - 183.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Choice specs set)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Beheeyem: 308-364 (87.2 - 103.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (colbur berry set).
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Silvally-Water: 619-733 (157.1 - 186%) -- guaranteed OHKO



Here are some calcs of others mons I didn't mentioned before, but that prove this set can do its job.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crustle: 376-445 (133.8 - 158.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (shell smash set)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Bronzor: 281-330 (88.3 - 103.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Shiftry Bloom Doom (195 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kecleon: 282-333 (92.7 - 109.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock.
This calc shows that +2 Leaf Storm Z kills resisting mons but not 2x resisting.

I don't have replays because I don't play often but to me, the calcs show how this set can be interesting to put in a team. Mareanie is a good teammate thanks to its type and bulk. It can set up TP to help Shiftry doing his job. I think Silvally Fighting is a good partner too because it can eliminate Dark type like Pawniard or Steel type like Mawile which annoy Shiftry. It can also Defog. SR can be put on field with mons like Metang, or Golem-A. You have to take care of Monferno, due to its type, 81 speed and priorities (but it don't survive a extrasensory), as well as every scarf.


So that's it ! If I need to add something I will by EDITs, tell me what you think about this set. I know it has many drawbacks but it can surprise. I have other set to suggest I will show them later :).
Thanks !
 

Xayah

KA-KOOO!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus


The council has decided to suspect one of the new additions to our metagame, Stoutland! Even though we have had this doggo before, it was both S rank and suspect tested back then and remained controversial even afterwards. Now that it has returned, its Choice Band set has been running wild once more and in this new metagame, there are two main differences that have pushed the council to suspect it.
First, Stoutland's best switch-ins are considerably worse right now. Mawile and physically defensive Tangela always had a fairly easy time switching into Stoutland even with hazards up (though Spikes can mess them up). However, both of these Pokemon have been suffering recently, with Fire-types improving and them generally having a much harder time doing what they'd like to do. Of course, they aren't bad per se, but they're much harder to fit on a team than they used to be.
Second, ZU has been dealing with threat over-saturation in recent times, and Stoutland only exemplifies that issue. For those of you not sure what I mean by that term, it basically means that there are too many things to prepare for, which makes it incredibly difficult to teambuild and especially hits balance teams hard, as they don't have enough room for a defensive backbone to cover the whole meta. With a breaker of Stoutland's level joining the meta, balance teams are pressured even further and are having a tough time in the meta right now.

Now, Stoutland is not unbeatable and the council is aware of that. Golem is common and makes it somewhat difficult for the dog to lock into its STAB moves. It also generally does not like to lock into coverage moves like Superpower or Crunch, as they are simply considerably weaker and make it hard for it to consistently break teams. Regardless, we believe it is worth it to take a good look at this new dog.

This will be the first time ZU has a ladder for a suspect test and thus, we will be using it. In order to obtain reqs for this test, you will have to obtain the following two requirements on a fresh alt on the ladder:
  • GXE of 79% or higher
  • A minimum of 40 games played
In order for us to ensure that your alt is indeed fresh, its name must begin with ZUST (ex: ZUST Xayah). There will be no council reqs for this suspect, everyone that wishes to vote is expected to fulfill the above requirements. An alt identification thread will go up later during the test.

The suspect test will end on September 29th 12:00 pm EST

A simple ban-majority (50% +1) will be needed for Stoutland to be moved to ZUBL.
Please discuss Stoutland in this thread and good luck laddering!
 
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The council has decided to suspect one of the new additions to our metagame, Stoutland! Even though we have had this doggo before, it was both S rank and suspect tested back then and remained controversial even afterwards. Now that it has returned, its Choice Band set has been running wild once more and in this new metagame, there are two main differences that have pushed the council to suspect it.
First, Stoutland's best switch-ins are considerably worse right now. Mawile and physically defensive Tangela always had a fairly easy time switching into Stoutland even with hazards up (though Spikes can mess them up). However, both of these Pokemon have been suffering recently, with Fire-types improving and them generally having a much harder time doing what they'd like to do. Of course, they aren't bad per se, but they're much harder to fit on a team than they used to be.
Second, ZU has been dealing with threat over-saturation in recent times, and Stoutland only exemplifies that issue. For those of you not sure what I mean by that term, it basically means that there are too many things to prepare for, which makes it incredibly difficult to teambuild and especially hits balance teams hard, as they don't have enough room for a defensive backbone to cover the whole meta. With a breaker of Stoutland's level joining the meta, balance teams are pressured even further and are having a tough time in the meta right now.

Now, Stoutland is not unbeatable and the council is aware of that. Golem is common and makes it somewhat difficult for the dog to lock into its STAB moves. It also generally does not like to lock into coverage moves like Superpower or Crunch, as they are simply considerably weaker and make it hard for it to consistently break teams. Regardless, we believe it is worth it to take a good look at this new dog.

This will be the first time ZU has a ladder for a suspect test and thus, we will be using it. In order to obtain reqs for this test, you will have to obtain the following two requirements on a fresh alt on the ladder:
  • GXE of 79% or higher
  • A minimum of 40 games played
In order for us to ensure that your alt is indeed fresh, its name must begin with ZUST (ex: ZUST Xayah). There will be no council reqs for this suspect, everyone that wishes to vote is expected to fulfill the above requirements. An alt identification thread will go up later during the test.

The suspect test will end on September 29th 12:00 pm EST

A simple ban-majority (50% +1) will be needed for Stoutland to be moved to ZUBL.
Please discuss Stoutland in this thread and good luck laddering!
How about y'all start doing suspect tests for OU. Seeing the same teams for 3+months is stale. No one cares about these doo doo formats u want to balance.
 

JustoonSmitts

tikitikitikitkitkitkittktkikitikktikitikitikitikit
is an Artistis a Contributor to Smogon
How about y'all start doing suspect tests for OU. Seeing the same teams for 3+months is stale. No one cares about these doo doo formats u want to balance.
Take that up with the OU moderators then, not here. I'll even link you to the proper OU forum here.

Oh, and welcome to Smogon! I hope you can find some fun in the lower tiers. :)
 

Xayah

KA-KOOO!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
How about y'all start doing suspect tests for OU. Seeing the same teams for 3+months is stale. No one cares about these doo doo formats u want to balance.
Hi there,

You are posting in the thread for ZeroUsed, which is an OM that functions the same as the usage based tiers, except it is below PU. I am one of its Tier Leaders. As fun as it'd be, I have no authority whatsoever in the OU community nor do I play the meta.
Thank you for checking this thread out, at least. I do recommend you try to play this metagame a few times, perhaps you'll enjoy it!

Welcome to Smogon!
 
Does the alt have to use the username of our Smogon account? I'm asking because I usually use a different name on Showdown and this is my first time trying to participate in a suspect test. Sorry if this is a stupid question.
 
Does the alt have to use the username of our Smogon account? I'm asking because I usually use a different name on Showdown and this is my first time trying to participate in a suspect test. Sorry if this is a stupid question.
You usually confirm it in someway like screenshotting the chat and saying in it "this is (Smogon Name)"
 

5gen

one man's custard is another man's pudding
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
Hey there everyone, this week's CCAT features a relatively underused threat in the ZU metagame: Lapras. Before diving into the teambuilding, I'd like to thank everyone who came out and participated. I had a blast hosting and I really appreciate the input we had in today's builds (spoiler we knocked out two versions around Specs Lapras).

As previously mentioned, Specs Lapras was the subject of this week's CCAT. After the poll ended and Specs Lapras was chosen, users nominated a wide range of partners and there was a three-way deadlock between Stoutland, Rotom-Fan, and Stun Spore Roselia. After some discussion, we went with Stoutland and Rotom-Fan as Lapras' partners. The former is able to bust through walls such as Lickilicky and Muk and the latter acts as a Fighting-type check and a Defogger. With these three Pokemon, Rock-, Fire-, and Electric-types were problematic. Originally Silvally-Ground was nominated, but it restricted the final two slots as its weaknesses compound with most SR users, did not resist Fire-type attacks, and doesn't deal with Bronzor. As a result, we went with Silvally-Dragon and Probopass. Together they compress a lot of roles for the team such as trapping Bronzor, checking Rapidash and Water-types, and checking Rotom-Frost. Lastly, the team needed some Speed and a way to deal with Golem, revenge kill NP Mr. Mime, and other attackers. Leafeon fit the bill and so we went with that. The team is still relatively weak to Stoutland, so Tangela can be added over Leafeon and Rotom-Fan changed to the Choice Scarf set. The team

Early on in the CCAT, ayedan mentioned Sand Rush Stoutland with Hippo as a direction for the team alongside Specs Lapras. We originally did not go with that idea, but near the end of the session we decided that a second version of the team could easily be made. The first team had issues with revenge killing and checking strong physical attackers in general, so we went Hippopotas>Probopass, Sand Rush Life Orb Stoutland>Choice Band, and Grumpig>Leafeon. This version of the team is relatively slow outside of Sand Rush Stoutland, mostly has special attackers, and relies heavily on Grumpig to deal with Abomasnow, Rotom-Frost, and Bronzor to an extent (Can go Crunch>Pursuit on Stout to help with Bronzor). The team

Logs: https://pastebin.com/nbuYTj4w
 
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Reqs.PNG


So i have my reqs. It was more difficult than excepted. The ladder is short and the players not bad at all. It means you can easily face players in low ladder which are quite strong in ZU. If you lose a battle, you need generally 4-5 battles to find your gxe back.
I personnally dont have problems to face opponents, even in high ladder it was less than five minutes.

I used two teams to do the suspect. First one :

Abomasnow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Giga Drain
- Focus Blast
- Ice Shard / Leech Seed

Mareanie @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic Spikes
- Recover
- Haze

Dusclops @ Eviolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Spite
- Mean Look
- Rest

Probopass @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Volt Switch
- Toxic
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Silvally-Fighting @ Fighting Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 244 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Toxic
- U-turn
- Defog

Pawniard @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Pursuit
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
I built this team with the goal to counter the ladder. Abomasnow Scarf is my revenge killer which prevents the Sand Stream to be effective. You dont have any reason to dont play Mareanie so Mareanie (+ I needed a toxic spikes absorber). Dusclops is the MVP of this team and stops a number incredible of threat you usually dont have a switch in for such as Electivire. Silvally-Fighting because Defog + Kecleon Thunder Punch/Pawniard + is able to swicth into Sandslash. Pawniard was chosen in last slot even if I added it later (at the beginning, it was Ninetales SubNp) because otherwise the team was really weak to bronzor. It offers too a priority and Knock off is always useful.

The sets dont need to be explained i think except maybe Leech Seed on Scarf Aboma. I used only one time Ice shard with almost 50 battles with this battle so I decided to switch it with leech seed which allows to let a turn of recovery to probopass if the opponent plays Muk for example. It's very situtionnal but Probopass is important but unfortunately pretty easy to weaken. If you dont like that, Ice shard stays a fine option (dont forget to change the nature so).

Dusclops is the MVP as I said above. It's incredibly strong against the ladder and can often 6-0 only at the team preview (the opposite player simply cannot break it). I play a trap PP staller set which is a set i always wanted to test. You can pp stall some useful things even without trapping such as leaf storm of lurantis which cannot break you because not enough pp after spite. Dusclops blocks annoying thing such as Roselia perfectly or even Mareanie in making it pretty useless without toxic spikes or scald or recover. I didnt try to pp stall the blizzard of frosttom but it's certainly possible too.

The majority of my loses was due to my inability to keep dusclops enough alive to wall the biggest threats of the opposite team. Dusclops is anti-meta right now, use it.

Second team :

Murkrow @ Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Toxic
- Roost
- Foul Play

Avalugg @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Avalanche
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Roar

Dusclops @ Eviolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Mean Look
- Rest
- Spite

Silvally-Poison @ Poison Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Toxic
- Defog
- Rest

Probopass @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy / Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
- Volt Switch

Lickilicky @ Leftovers
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Knock Off / Toxic
- Heal Bell

I used stall for the last ten battles because i didnt want to lose one battle. I dont think I have to explain the sets because they are pretty obvious. Just two comments about two choices of mons. I prefered Murkrow over Mareanie because i needed haze with the priority against threaten set up sweeper mons and also because toxic priority is very important to get rid of them. Of course, it makes the team weaker to Monferno SD + Simipour NP but we dont have good unaware mons so I needed to decide to which set up sweepers mon I prefer being weak and Monferno SD/Simipour NP are rare on the ladder. I can haze/toxic Monferno/Simipour and weaken them with dusclops anyway. The second point is about Silvally-Poison which is mandatory in this build. It absorbs toxic spikes, is a lurantis switch in, beat Pawniard and Shiftry which are Dark Set up sweepers that i cannot haze/poison. Rest on last move because a pivot move doesnt have a great utility here and rest is important to dont have to wish pass (heal bell is easier). I play Defog + Rapid spin because rocks are annoying for stalls.

I dont have major problems with this team. I had a sun battle a bit difficult but nothing much. As I wanted, I didnt lose one battle in using this.

Generally speaking, I didnt face special playstyles (Sand, rain, trick room, webs) as often as I thought (few times though). Frosttom was very common, Stoutland not as much as excepted. Muk was on a lot of teams, Mareanie not really. I faced few times Roselia though and Electivire too. Shiftry, Monferno SD and Bouffalant didnt simply exist.


What i will vote ?

I dont know yet. Stoutland isn't broken. The combinaison of Frosttom + Stoutland is broken though. Also, if I dont have specific problems with Stoutland, it restricts however a lot the teambuilding. It's almost impossible to have a team which handles without any problems all the threats we have in ZU now. The metagame before Stoutland comes back was more healthy than this one in my opinion. I'm however very anti-ban by nature so I still hesitate. I think i will vote ban but I'm not sure.

Other quick thoughts :

Rotom-Frost is nasty.
Fortunately, Silvally exists. But, well, Thunder Punch Kecleon is so scary and so bulky.
I didnt really test it before this team. It's cool, I like it a lot. Good mon.
Underplayed. Underrated.
It sucks.
Remember when this thing was B-. It's one of the best ZU mon at the moment. Funbot faces me with a Protect Set which PP stalls the Blizzard. Terrific.
I dont like at all Trick Room recently. It's a bad spot, it suffers a lot for toxic spikes stack. It's pretty bad.
King
 
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I'm going to advocate for a new pokemon to move up a tier. This time it's Armaldo

348.png
This little guy is normally off meta, but lately I've found a new use for this guy. Armaldo can almost always kill Stoutland in a 1v1 situation.
Usually, a banded Stoutland uses superpower, which does 54.2 - 63.8% to an Armaldo with no defense investment. After a knock-off, the Stoutland will be unable to kill Armaldo, who can retaliate with a stone edge to pick up the KO.

Armaldo is also tied with Sandshrew as one of the best rapid spinners in the tier. However, statwise, Armaldo is superior in every single area except for special defense. Armaldo can also carry stealth rocks for even more hazard control.

The last thing I'm going to point out is the versatility of the Plate Pokemon. It gets Aqua Jet for priority, Swords Dance to boost, Knock Off for, well, knocking off, as well as a lot of coverage moves. Yes, Armaldo can suffer from 4 move slot syndrome, but that's because it has so many options and can fill so many roles.
 

Jmash

formerly Jmash324
is a Tiering Contributor
I'm going to advocate for a new pokemon to move up a tier. This time it's Armaldo

View attachment 136716 This little guy is normally off meta, but lately I've found a new use for this guy. Armaldo can almost always kill Stoutland in a 1v1 situation.
Usually, a banded Stoutland uses superpower, which does 54.2 - 63.8% to an Armaldo with no defense investment. After a knock-off, the Stoutland will be unable to kill Armaldo, who can retaliate with a stone edge to pick up the KO.

Armaldo is also tied with Sandshrew as one of the best rapid spinners in the tier. However, statwise, Armaldo is superior in every single area except for special defense. Armaldo can also carry stealth rocks for even more hazard control.

The last thing I'm going to point out is the versatility of the Plate Pokemon. It gets Aqua Jet for priority, Swords Dance to boost, Knock Off for, well, knocking off, as well as a lot of coverage moves. Yes, Armaldo can suffer from 4 move slot syndrome, but that's because it has so many options and can fill so many roles.
Issue is you're looking at the Stoutland match up in a vacuum, and this scenario is actually not very realistic in an actual match. Sure 1v1 it can win but when are both going to be facing off at full health? Realize Armaldo can't switch in, especially with rocks up, aka the very rocks you are trying to spin, which ties into the next point. It may have comparable/better stats than Sandslash but being weak to rocks and being resistant to them is honestly a big difference. Sandslash also threatens Mareanie more immediately to keep T-spikes off the field and fares far better against Golem, which is everywhere. You also list all these roles Armaldo can potentially do, but frankly it's underwhelming in most of them and really needs to stick to Rapid Spinning, as Rapid Spin is quite unique and rare in ZU. I wouldn't say it even ties with Sandslash as a spinner, even if it does have some redeeming qualities.
 
Got my reqs.
SmartSelect_20180919-181323_Chrome.jpg

Here are the teams I used.

SmartSelect_20180919-181112_Chrome.jpg

https://pokepast.es/4d4ef777b92ded30

SmartSelect_20180919-181018_Chrome.jpg

https://pokepast.es/aba47a638a49bee4

I used the hyper offense team for the first 20 games or so and then switched to the second build once I got higher on the ladder and needed something more reliable. Both teams are relatively easy to use but the second team is definitely much easier.

I didn't face a ton of Stoutlands and when I did they were easy to handle with Golem or just by keeping momentum with pivots (2nd team). I would definitely say that Rotom-F is still the best Mon in the tier with Stoutland coming up second.

I do agree that it's somewhat difficult to reliably check every threat in the tier but that's how every tier is. No team can handle every threat or always have a perfect matchup.

No ban for me
 
I like this ZU tier a lot, so I figured I might try voting on a suspect. Got my reqs (not posting them here as the post right before this said that will be done elsewhere) using this team, going 36 and 6:
stoutland.png
pinsir.png
arbok.png
kadabra.png
Spr_4h_076.png
silvally.png

Stoutland @ Choice Band
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Facade
- Superpower
- Pursuit

Pinsir @ Lum Berry
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- X-Scissor
- Earthquake
- Quick Attack

Arbok @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Coil
- Gunk Shot
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch

Kadabra @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 Def
- Counter
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Encore

Golem @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Sucker Punch

Silvally-Water @ Water Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Surf
- Flamethrower
- Parting Shot


The team is very straightforward, just apply as much pressure as possible and save kadabra for anything dangerous setting up. Kadabra has 0 def ivs to ensure flame charge from silvally lets kadabra ko back with counter. Darkinium Z arbok hits bronzor and bulky ghosts like dusclops hard. Pursuit on stoutland lets it be useful even in games where opponents have strong switch-ins.

I fought a lot of teams using probopass + tangela to handle stoutland, so having double set up mons with super effective stab on tangela and earthquake to destroy probopass worked very well. Pinsir and arbok also work very well against popular stuff like mareanie and muk. I never lost against any slow teams if I'm not mistaken, but something like avalugg stall could probably give this team trouble. It tended to have coinflip matches against other fast aggressive teams and weather offense (sand and rain). Kadabra helped a lot, but sometimes wasn't enough by itself.

I am leaning toward ban on stoutland, simply because its presence will kill diversity. Slow teams will be forced to use a small number of defensive answers to stoutland that don't even put the stoutland user at too much of a disadvantage if present. Those small number of defensive pokemon are pretty easily exploitable in team building. I think teams will either abandon their slower, bulkier, and weaker elements or add more defensive pokemon and become a stall team.

Stoutland is not unbeatable, but its unmatched combination of bulk, power, and coverage demands that a team either have good switch-ins or just be very fast and aggressive (hopefully with lots of fighting attacks). ZU is a pretty decentralized meta (bar rotom-F) from what I've seen, and I would prefer not have stoutland cut out or at least heavily restrict balanced playstyles.

I could be wrong about stoutland. Its presence doesn't actually invalidate putting any pokemon that are otherwise viable onto a team. It's possible that the answers to stoutland and diverse enough to withstand exploitation by other threats, but that has not been my impression so far.
 
Having trouble breaking out of the low ladder for reqs? Fear not, for I am here to save the day with a ridiculous-looking HO team that has just enough tech and cheese to beat the nonsense you run into. It obviously falters against more experienced players and/or well-balanced teams, but I did nab a few surprise victories against well-known players.
Omanyte @ Focus Sash
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Surf

Monferno @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Mach Punch

Trevenant @ Choice Band
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Claw
- Wood Hammer
- Earthquake
- Trick

Purugly @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Defiant
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- U-turn
- Frustration
- Stomping Tantrum

Kadabra @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Counter
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Energy Ball

Muk @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Power-Up Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Gunk Shot
- Shadow Sneak

I won't go into too much detail about the team since there isn't a ton to say and it doesn't hold up to intense scrutiny, but I will highlight a few reasons it demolishes low ladder players/teams.

SD Monferno absolutely demolishes unprepared players, often with very little chip or setup needed. Purugly and spikes/tspikes support more than provide this for him, and he wins a lot of games very quickly. Against balance teams, this is your wincon.

Purugly is really the key. Not only is it a good mon right now because it thrives in offensive meta games and performs wel against Golem and Probopass with Tantrum, but because of how little usage Silvally-Fighting and Lurantis get in low-ladder. They are the only two standard defoggers that can really dissuade you from coming in, nabbing a +2, then raising Hell until something comes in which can stop it. Oftentimes, though, people don't have the means to actually stop a 500 attack, 355 speed monster with a spammable 122 BP STAB.

Banded Trev is there to stop Slash from spinning and generally nuke things (you should run some calcs on resisted Wood Hammer hits- they are not pretty) and provide a way to Trick eviolites away from annoying mons and stop walls from making your life miserable.

The AV PuP Muk is a set I used in the Seasonal to be a GSI to Frostom and become immediately threatening. It functions really well as a catch-all and offensive momentum preserver.

Sash Countee Kadabs is the bomb. Nuff said.

And last but not least, our adorable little suicide lead. Why not Crustle or Whirlipede? Because helix. Also because Surf hurts a LOT and almost always allows omanyte to beat Golem. Also because, when you only get hazards up once, it is nice to be able to choose literally any two sets you want.

Go in with the mentality that the hazards probably won't be up for long, but when they are removed, Purugly can cause enough mayhem that the rest of the team will find a way to break through.

Happy stomping!
 

Xayah

KA-KOOO!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I feel like Xayah shouldn’t be TL of ZeroUsed. I have barely ever actually seen her play the meta, and when she does, I’ve only seen her beaten (not counting ladder battles). There are much better players, who are both more active and more helpful (thank you 5gen), and who actually respond to PMs. Xayah has ignored me all but once when I’ve tried to PM her. 5gen is very helpful when he isn’t afk, as I was surprised to find out when I asked him to help me build. The only one who I think wouldn’t do a better job is Aaronboyer (sorry) as he is deliberately unhelpful, but even he is active a fair bit. Sorry if I’ve offended anyone, but I think Xayah should be replaced for Durza or Froasty.
You can't literally steal the copypasta insulting me that I made and post it here. That's illegal.

Seriously though, can we please keep the shitposting in here to a minimum? We have our #off-topic on Discord if you wanna do that. Let's focus on metagame discussion in here, such as the current ongoing Stoutland suspect.
 
Recently got done getting reqs so I wanted to get this out there since the end of this suspect is fast approaching. I want to put my two cents out there on why Stoutland should not be banned. I didn't want to go over every single aspect of Stoutland so I decided to just go with the aspects that have been talked about most in general.
1) The first thing I feel that should get across to people is that Stoutland isn't broken. Many have said it in the discussion already, but I just want to reiterate that Stoutland doesn't 6-0 teams and it doesn't one shot every mon under the sun.
2) That being said Stoutland does have very few switch ins. I won't go into this too much since others like Froasty have done a great job of explaining this. I just wanted to add that while Stoutland checks can be worn down over time, Stoutland too is easily worn down. Between having no recovery and leftovers not being great on it, Stoutland is often either forced out or made to take a major blow from faster threats.
3) Speaking of faster threats, Stoutland suffers from it's speed tier. While its not bad by any means, it just isn't to the level that it needs to dominate the meta. It is a slightly faster than normal wall breaker. You don't deal with a wall breaker by sending in walls, you deal with it by using faster threats and revenge killers. That and plenty of mons can stomach a hit to dish out some damage.
4) Most importantly, I want to talk about Stouts impact on the metagame. All new pokemon to tiers usually change the metagame in some ways. The way it's being argued here makes it seem that Stout warps everything in the metagame in an unhealthy way. While I do agree that Stout somewhat warps the metagame, I don't believe it's as bad as it's being argued here. Stout makes the meta lean offensive, which depending on what style you like to play is either a good or bad thing. It however doesn't make any other style of play irrelevant, except for maybe stall but that's already been dead for a while so beating a dead horse isn't too bad. Is balance harder to play and build, yeah. Are bulkier teams being made to be somewhat faster, yeah. These and other teams are changing, they aren't being made useless or irrelevant. I also just want to say that Rotom-F warps the metagame much more than stoutland ever has. That's a topic for a separate post but yeah just wanted to point that out.
5) Lastly an over saturation of threats shouldn't be a reason to ban Stout, it shouldn't be a scapegoat for said over saturation. Tuthur made a great point earlier in this thread where he brought up that uncommon sweepers are hard to deal with because of how unprepared for them teams are. Banning Stout just so that there's one less threat to prep for is just bad reasoning. I could understand banning a mon that required an extreme amount of team prep to check, which Stoutland just doesn't do. Half your team doesn't need to be dedicated to beating just Stout. There will always be threats that teams just aren't prepped for, you can't build for everything, if your team no longer has to worry about Stout then it'll just be another threat that sweeps you, obscure or not.
I can't tell the future. For all I know Stout a month from now may very well end up being a cancerous mon that every team must use to have a decent chance of winning. For now however that just isn't the case, between Dusclops making me want to rip my teeth out and the rise of Fightvally, the meta is already (at least for now since drops are like 2 weeks away and will shakeup the meta again) on it's way to adjusting to it's influence. We don't tier the future so we shouldn't ban something that hasn't broken the meta yet. If Stout ends up being too much then everyone can rest their heads easy and ban it without worry. If however it doesn't end up being busted, then we lose a unique mon that offers a lot. Therefore I'll be voting NO BAN and I hope I have given you enough reason to also vote No Ban.
 
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