There is nothing special about Lucario's typing. He is a fighting pokemon that is weak against fighting. He's weak to earthquake, fire, and phychic. (all of which I carry regularly) not to mention that his movepool is split between special and physical. the only way to satisfy such a movepool is to run mixed. But then lucario isn't wholly either is he?
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New and 'creative' moveset/EV spread thread Mk. 5
- Thread starter Lee
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Lucario's typing is special maybe because no other pokemon has it? Fighting/Steel belongs to only Lucario. He is also neutral to psychic, not weak, and it is a rarely used type in any case. I am utterly confused by what point you are attempting to reach.
Edit: I've been theorymonning and subsequently using this Scizor set.
Shield Scizor
Scizor@Leftovers
Relaxed / Impish
248 HP/ 252 Def/ 8 SDef
-Roost
-U-Turn / Baton Pass
-Bullet Punch / Light Screen
-Swords Dance / Light Screen / Rain Dance
I've had trouble deciding the last slot, and the EV spread is iffy but the idea behind the set is this- to go after the opponent and serve as a physical shield for your team. In every set I take from the Smogon analysis I add an extra 4 EV's to speed to avoid speed ties, but do the opposite with Scizor, wondering why you would ever want your U-Turn to go first. With a minimum speed Scizor (you could toss in 0 speed IV's but you don't go after anything too significant) you can go before many attackers and use U-Turn as a safe switch move as well as a scouting move. No longer do you have to wait for a Pokemon to faint to bring in your glass cannon, Scizor can absorb the blow and roost it off later. If U-Turning is not your cup of tea you may also like baton pass, a dry baton pass has the same effect sans damage and when paired with Swords Dance or Substitute it can turn your safe switch into a huge gain in momentum. Agility is possible but not recommended due to it offsetting your low speed.
The last two slots are the iffy ones. Bullet Punch is the signature move of Scizor and gives him a good way to deal damage. With Swords Dance he can set up safely while roosting off damage. However with no investment in attack the damage output is underwhelming, instead you can focus more on his defensive prowess. With leftovers and his EV spread there is no physical attack in OU (that I'm aware of) that can 2HKO save for a Flare Blitz coming off of Infernape. To resist the very popular special fire attacks aimed at Scizor you can carry Light Screen, a move not mentioned once in Scizior's analysis. If your plan is to make Scizor absorb the attacks that are the very bane of his existence you can add rain dance to half fire damage and safely switch in a rain sweeper however he might fancy a damp rock more in that case. In any event very few Special Fire attacks 2HKO when Scizor is in rain with a light screen and an alternate spread of 248 HP/ 8 Def/ 252 SDef Sassy.
I'd really appreciate feedback on making this set the best it can be while maintaining the same principle (using Scizor as a shield). An optimal EV spread would be the best seeing as I cannot make one to save my life. Also hearing other opinions on what to do with the moves especially the last 4. I've been running through all the possible combinations with no real preference, so a more definitive moveset would be great. My only other consideration is a possible Light Clay.
Edit: I've been theorymonning and subsequently using this Scizor set.
Shield Scizor
Scizor@Leftovers
Relaxed / Impish
248 HP/ 252 Def/ 8 SDef
-Roost
-U-Turn / Baton Pass
-Bullet Punch / Light Screen
-Swords Dance / Light Screen / Rain Dance
I've had trouble deciding the last slot, and the EV spread is iffy but the idea behind the set is this- to go after the opponent and serve as a physical shield for your team. In every set I take from the Smogon analysis I add an extra 4 EV's to speed to avoid speed ties, but do the opposite with Scizor, wondering why you would ever want your U-Turn to go first. With a minimum speed Scizor (you could toss in 0 speed IV's but you don't go after anything too significant) you can go before many attackers and use U-Turn as a safe switch move as well as a scouting move. No longer do you have to wait for a Pokemon to faint to bring in your glass cannon, Scizor can absorb the blow and roost it off later. If U-Turning is not your cup of tea you may also like baton pass, a dry baton pass has the same effect sans damage and when paired with Swords Dance or Substitute it can turn your safe switch into a huge gain in momentum. Agility is possible but not recommended due to it offsetting your low speed.
The last two slots are the iffy ones. Bullet Punch is the signature move of Scizor and gives him a good way to deal damage. With Swords Dance he can set up safely while roosting off damage. However with no investment in attack the damage output is underwhelming, instead you can focus more on his defensive prowess. With leftovers and his EV spread there is no physical attack in OU (that I'm aware of) that can 2HKO save for a Flare Blitz coming off of Infernape. To resist the very popular special fire attacks aimed at Scizor you can carry Light Screen, a move not mentioned once in Scizior's analysis. If your plan is to make Scizor absorb the attacks that are the very bane of his existence you can add rain dance to half fire damage and safely switch in a rain sweeper however he might fancy a damp rock more in that case. In any event very few Special Fire attacks 2HKO when Scizor is in rain with a light screen and an alternate spread of 248 HP/ 8 Def/ 252 SDef Sassy.
I'd really appreciate feedback on making this set the best it can be while maintaining the same principle (using Scizor as a shield). An optimal EV spread would be the best seeing as I cannot make one to save my life. Also hearing other opinions on what to do with the moves especially the last 4. I've been running through all the possible combinations with no real preference, so a more definitive moveset would be great. My only other consideration is a possible Light Clay.
Lucario's not weak to psychic.
To claim that there's nothing special about Lucario's typing just because he has three x2 weaknesses is pretty dumb. He has nine resistances (including three x4 resistances) and one immunity. His typing is incredible.
Also, are you really trying to find fault with Lucario for having too wide of a movepool? That's pretty ridiculous.
chomper, on that set i would probaly stick with roost,u-turn,light screen and some random filler, roost is a must-have like you showed but the other 2 moves have some good uses, u-turn is all around good for scouting and light screen can support the team, scizor got a good movepool so the filler depend on the team. also echo...by your logic any steel type or any pokemon with 2 or 3 common weakness got a horrible typing despite the amount of types he resist...man...what a FNG....
Hippo-Anti Lead:
Hippowdon@Choice Band
Adamant
252 HP/252 Atk/6SpDef
~Earthquake
~Crunch
~Ice Fang/Stone Edge
~Fire Fang/Stealth Rock/Ice Fang
I tried to think of a lead that would be unexpected and simply KO the foe outright and break through the focus sash. Sand or hail was needed, so hippo was the natural choice. Unlike Tyranitar, hippo is unexpected to KO you on the first turn, and has bulk and better defensive typing. If they taunt, or SR, you get a free KO. Grass knot cannot KO unless infernape uses fake out + grass knot. Crunch KOs Azelf 100% of the time, EQ KOs metagross and heatran 100% of the time, ice fang can KO gliscor. Aerodactyl is a problem due to sandstorm immunity though. The main problem is the foe setting up on you after. But a free KO is a free KO. Hippo has the bulk to return later and get SR up.
Hippowdon@Choice Band
Adamant
252 HP/252 Atk/6SpDef
~Earthquake
~Crunch
~Ice Fang/Stone Edge
~Fire Fang/Stealth Rock/Ice Fang
I tried to think of a lead that would be unexpected and simply KO the foe outright and break through the focus sash. Sand or hail was needed, so hippo was the natural choice. Unlike Tyranitar, hippo is unexpected to KO you on the first turn, and has bulk and better defensive typing. If they taunt, or SR, you get a free KO. Grass knot cannot KO unless infernape uses fake out + grass knot. Crunch KOs Azelf 100% of the time, EQ KOs metagross and heatran 100% of the time, ice fang can KO gliscor. Aerodactyl is a problem due to sandstorm immunity though. The main problem is the foe setting up on you after. But a free KO is a free KO. Hippo has the bulk to return later and get SR up.
It is true that they can set up on you though, as EQ never 2HKOos Forry and stone edge can be roost stalled while only having a 64% chance of hitting twice. However, Forry and Skarm leads are incredibly rare. According to the server stats, forry leads are on 1.46% of teams, and Skarmory leads are on 1.60% of teams.
Wouldn't Oran be better on this Clefable? Sitrus would only heal her 3, whereas Oran would heal her 10. So:
Sub 1, down to 12.
Sub 2, down to 9.
Sub 3, down to 6, Oran activates (so back to 15) and can be recycled.
SubChargeSalac Gonz
Porygon-Z @Salac Berry
Ability: Adaptability
Evs 252 Spe 252 SpA 4 HP Timid (or modest)
-Recover
-Substitute
-Charge Beam
-Tri Attack
(Tested a bit but not thoroughly tested yet)
Made as a late game sweeper, I created this set when I started making a sub plot Gonz, but I wanted a 5th move. I settled upon this set.
To use this set, you must have support. I try for at least one layers of spikes and stealth rocks. I usually have dual screens up for the first turns to help gonz to get up two charge beam boosts.
Timid is used to try and out speed a lot of guys before salac and most after, but the main counters to this set are priority users. Modest gives it a chance to 2HKO scizor with a charge beam and +1 Tri Attack with a layer of spikes and stealth rock damage (considering its its biggest enemy, thats a big thing)
Obviously blissey walls this set, which is why I have three guys who can explode on her, as well as magnezone to trap steels, and dual screens to help Gonz to set up, and forry to get one or two sets of spikes up, all set up to help late game sweeps.
More testing will be done, hope you guys are interested... :)
Porygon-Z @Salac Berry
Ability: Adaptability
Evs 252 Spe 252 SpA 4 HP Timid (or modest)
-Recover
-Substitute
-Charge Beam
-Tri Attack
(Tested a bit but not thoroughly tested yet)
Made as a late game sweeper, I created this set when I started making a sub plot Gonz, but I wanted a 5th move. I settled upon this set.
To use this set, you must have support. I try for at least one layers of spikes and stealth rocks. I usually have dual screens up for the first turns to help gonz to get up two charge beam boosts.
Timid is used to try and out speed a lot of guys before salac and most after, but the main counters to this set are priority users. Modest gives it a chance to 2HKO scizor with a charge beam and +1 Tri Attack with a layer of spikes and stealth rock damage (considering its its biggest enemy, thats a big thing)
Obviously blissey walls this set, which is why I have three guys who can explode on her, as well as magnezone to trap steels, and dual screens to help Gonz to set up, and forry to get one or two sets of spikes up, all set up to help late game sweeps.
More testing will be done, hope you guys are interested... :)
It sounds good...I just can't imagine seeing it become that popular because, as you said:
While SR is not that big a deal, 3 Pokemon specifically to set up gonz and 2 layers of spikes is a lot unless you don't mind basing your entire team around it. It also doesn't help that it takes even longer to set up if Forretress/Zong are taunted (but this isn't too big a problem, either).
And more notably:
It's still a usable set, but it won't be too popular because of the number of Pokemon and precautions needed to prepare for the sweep.
While SR is not that big a deal, 3 Pokemon specifically to set up gonz and 2 layers of spikes is a lot unless you don't mind basing your entire team around it. It also doesn't help that it takes even longer to set up if Forretress/Zong are taunted (but this isn't too big a problem, either).
Sorry I meant to elaborate on that. The premises for using charge beam than tri attack would be to get a +1 tri attack on the second turn.
Spikes are easy enough though, but maybe to make it easier I'll try a frosslass with a scarf (or something) to guarantee at least one layer of spikes, seeing how that is the most benifical layer (beats things that get beat by it, and adds 12.5% residual damage as opposed to 6.25)
thanks for the feedback. My future analysis in going to see if its worth using over sub-plot.
@Dan: When is P-Z going to ever use Recover though? It's not holding LO, and many things will be 2HKOing it, so most of the time P-Z will be attacking/subbing/charge beaming. Wouldn't having another move for coverage (or... simply going back to the sub-plot with dark pulse>charge beam) be better?
It's not that Charge Beam is bad, but Nasty Plot would be better if Recover is never going to be used anyway.
It's not that Charge Beam is bad, but Nasty Plot would be better if Recover is never going to be used anyway.
Oh yeah, I thought Sitrus Berry healed 30hp and I just read it is 30%. Sad thing is Shoddy doesn't let her heal 1 hp with Leftovers. In battle I even passed her Aqua Ring so she could stall forever and she wouldn't heal.
Don't worry about this set anymore though, it won't work perfectly on Shoddy because the simulator makes her "fully paralyzed" when paralyzed instead of just slow. Avoiding that is important to her stall. This set is too advanced for shoddy. :/
Pokemon Name:Umbreon
Moveset Name:S.Def Cleric
Move 1: Protect
Move 2: Toxic
Move 3: Wish
Move 4: Heal Bell
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
Nature: Calm (+SpD, -Atk)
EVs: 248 HP / 248 SpD / 12 Spe
In need of a massive special defense wall in UU or even OU? Looking for a cleric that has access to Heal Bell? How about Wish to support your bulky stall team? Would you like all of those in one without being made fun of for resorting to Uber-ass Blissey? Look no further. Umbreon is also fully capable of bringing down an uncalculable number of pokemon with Toxic, while stalling the foe to the end with it's wealthy bulk.
I already gave selling points.. to be used inplace of Blissey (OU) or Chansey (UU)
Should you bore of using them and decide on a new replacement special wall / cleric.
Mean Defense Stat
Bold 252HP Blissey = 387.5
Bold 252HP Umbreon = 337.5
Bold 252HP 252DEF Blissey = 422
Bold 252HP 252DEF Umbreon = 372
Overall a 34.5+ Defense difference infavor of Blissey. Should the user of Bliss give her any HP EVs.
Bold Blissey = 356
Bold Umbreon = 306
With no Defensive EVs in place the differance soars by 50.
Now that you mention it though, It's faster then standard Blissey by 23 points.
Blissey is unable to use Aromatherapy with Wish -another selling point.
Synchronize with Heal Bell allows Umbreon to come in on T-waves, Will-o-Wisps and heal itself right after.
Blissey is also widely predictable. It's there to stall. Umbreon could be Trapping, Cursing, Passing, Wishing, Taunting ect. It could even scare away a Rotom!
Blissey is also torn between moves other then Toxic, such as T-wave and Seismic Toss, Icebeam / Flamethrower. With Umbreons terrible movepool there will be no back and forth dilemma between the usual (Toxic? Or Twave?, Icebeam? Or Flamethrower? Softboiled? Or Wish?)
Mean Special Defense Stat:
Calm 252HP 252SpD Blissey = 559.5
Calm 252HP 252SpD Umbreon = 394
165.5 Differance is fairly massive. But Blissey is the unparalleled wall in the entire metagame. So cut Umby some slack woulja??
Calm 252HP 252SpD Chansey = 521.5
127.5 Differance for Chansey is massive too.
There is reason to use other pokemon other then the prime. There are other Special Defense walls out there other then Blissey. If you are interested in using them maybe for a change of pace. Start with this Dark Cleric Umbreon!
Otherwise what is the point of using Flygon when you could use Salamance? Salamance is clearly better, it can also be scarfed. It just doesn't get access to U-turn. Which isn't much of a big deal, because 99% of Flygons are scarfed and carry U-turn. It's predictable. It's not like Flygons ground typing doesn't make it neutral to Grass type.
I don't see any point to using that if its best selling point is "It's not Blissey/Chansey!" Why would you use this over Chansey or Blissey? What does it do better? What advantages does it have? That's what you need to explain, or else all that post says is "Buy a Ford! Why? Because it's not a Lexus!"
It is a sad day when you resort to Umbreon because people "make fun of you." Blissey has all 4 of those moves with a lot more Special Defense, making it pretty much 100% superior to that set. The only way for Umbreon to stand out is to give it Payback so you can hurt Latias (especially those Calm Minders), as well as Gengar.
I considered trying a sort of bait Umbreon set a while ago with something like Yawn/Protect/Wish/Payback. Yawn can force switches and is the only way Umbreon will ever be able to do something to Scizor. Protect allows you to prevent Scizor (and potentially Flygon) from using U-turn to switch out of Yawn and will basically take it out of the game unless it decides to switch. Wish would be to support the team and give it something to do after it takes out Scizor and Payback is for STAB. You could try Yawn over Toxic on that Umbreon as well to give it something above Chansey/Blissey.
I made this set mainly because I hate Heatran and it works great in doubles too.
Singles-Doubles Swapping Jirachi
Jirachi@ExpertBelt
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Att / 252 Speed
Jolly Nature
-Skill Swap
-Iron Head
-Fire Punch
-ThunderPunch/Substitute
Iron Head is definitely the favorite flinching move but the main point of this set is to use Skill Swap on a Heatran, powering up your FlashFire and hitting him back with Fire Punch that he's no longer immune to. ThunderPunch is for the Water-types that are resist Iron Head and Fire Punch. I was considering Zen Headbutt but Empoleon resists that so ThunderPunch it is. For doubles, using Skill Swap on partner Lanturn/Jolteon has a lot of benefits. 1) Lanturn/Jolteon's Discharge will start healing Jirachi because of Volt Absorb. 2) Lanturn/Jolteon will gain Serene Grace which would be a 60% paralysis rate on both of the opponent's Pokemon.
Thanks to wavedash, Substitute is a good substitute ( haha =] ) for ThunderPunch if you're unsure if Heatran will use EarthPower or FireBlast.
Singles-Doubles Swapping Jirachi
Jirachi@ExpertBelt
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Att / 252 Speed
Jolly Nature
-Skill Swap
-Iron Head
-Fire Punch
-ThunderPunch/Substitute
Iron Head is definitely the favorite flinching move but the main point of this set is to use Skill Swap on a Heatran, powering up your FlashFire and hitting him back with Fire Punch that he's no longer immune to. ThunderPunch is for the Water-types that are resist Iron Head and Fire Punch. I was considering Zen Headbutt but Empoleon resists that so ThunderPunch it is. For doubles, using Skill Swap on partner Lanturn/Jolteon has a lot of benefits. 1) Lanturn/Jolteon's Discharge will start healing Jirachi because of Volt Absorb. 2) Lanturn/Jolteon will gain Serene Grace which would be a 60% paralysis rate on both of the opponent's Pokemon.
Thanks to wavedash, Substitute is a good substitute ( haha =] ) for ThunderPunch if you're unsure if Heatran will use EarthPower or FireBlast.
In singles, you'll have to hit Choice Scarf Heatran on the switch and it can still hit you with Earthpower and Jirachi would be better off using HP Ground. Using it on Gyarados, Salamence, Vaporeon, and Magnezone as they switch in might be nice, though. Expert Belt is probably better so you can fake a Choice Scarf.
That's true. I've used this guy before and all the Heatrans I've faced used FireBlast on Jirachi. I haven't met a Choice Scarf one though.