Auto weather poll

[HabibsHotDogs]

Regardless of whether they are inept or not, one of Smogon's primary goals is to maintain an enjoyable metagame for everyone and weather you like it or not, quite a lot of people enjoy using rain teams (obviously). At the moment there is two ways of nerfing rain: either 1. Continue banning its most prominent/centralising (ab)users or 2. Ban drizzle/politoed and force rain strategies to run rain dance. No other ways of nerving rain come to mind at this point in time, but I'd love to hear alternatives.

Either one will be helping nerf the dominance of rain in order to create a more stable meta. The council will obviously go with the one that makes more sense to them in terms of pleasing as many people as possible and keeping the most diverse metagame possible.

 

[Lavos]

At the moment there is two ways of nerfing rain: either 1. Continue banning its most prominent/centralising (ab)users or 2. Ban drizzle/politoed and force rain strategies to run rain dance. No other ways of nerving rain come to mind at this point in time, but I'd love to hear alternatives.

okay you're right about there being only two options, but the fact remains that we've already tried option a, we've been doing it for over a year now and rain is still broken. look at all the stuff we've banned that is op because of rain, instead of just banning the source:

- manaphy
- kingdra, ludicolo, qwilfish, kabutops, etc. (viable swift swimmers in rain)
- thundurus-i
- tornadus-t

and somehow we're still not catching onto what the real problem is? just look at the patterns, every single thing on that list besides maybe thundurus is not even close to being broken without rain to give it that huge power boost, activate an ability, or whatever it happens to do for that specific pokemon. we have banned so many things because of rain, yet rain is still a problem. how about instead of dancing around the root cause of the issues we're encountering, we face it head on instead?

i'd also love to see a popularity poll on how many people actually enjoy using rain vs how many people use it because it's currently the strongest playstyle for bw2.

 

[shrang]

Actually, Manaphy and Thundurus-I are both pretty amazing out of rain, while from the Tornadus-T megathread, one argument was the fact that Tornadus-T doesn't REALLY give a shit if rain isn't around (the main counter argument to "Tornadus-T is rain dependent).

 

[UltiMario]

Manaphy is pretty 50/50 TBH. Its CM set is basically outdone by Keldeo without the benefit of Rain IMO, but its Tail Glow is still nasty. I'm not sure how well it would do without Rain in this metagame, though.

Probably would be a monster, but it's not something we know for sure.

 

[jrp]

I doubt whether manaphy would be broken in a drizzle-less metagame. Without its immunity to status, it's an inferior CM mon to things like Keldeo and Jirachi. And the tail glow set is certainly threatening, but it's easily countered.

tbf I found the bulky CM set much worse than Tail Glow to play against. Tail glow is entirely offensive whereas CM was extremely tricky to revenge

 

[Lavos]

Actually, Manaphy and Thundurus-I are both pretty amazing out of rain, while from the Tornadus-T megathread, one argument was the fact that Tornadus-T doesn't REALLY give a shit if rain isn't around (the main counter argument to "Tornadus-T is rain dependent).

i'm going to disagree with you there on both manaphy and tornadus-t, manaphy's decidedly average base 100 speed and lack of any super handy resistances (read: jirachi) makes it unable to pull off a real sweep without staying power, namely rest + hydration, and tornadus-t's single best move is granted perfect accuracy in rain, falling to that of focus blast outside of rain, and a mere coin flip in sun. besides, let's be honest, how many successful teams did you see that ran torn-t outside of rain? i would be willing to bet it's not many, and the arguments in the suspect thread were pretty bad for torn-t outside of rain still being broken, because it really lacks the ability to abuse its best option outside of said rain. as i stated, thundurus is a different story in that it's still broken outside of rain, but rain makes it even more broken (thunder > tbolt), which was my point. even if you want to take thundurus off the list, that's still three things - manaphy, swift swimmers, and torn-t - that we've banned because of rain. to reiterate, even though we've banned all these things from the ou tier, rain is still viewed by many as being broken, which leads me to believe that it's the root cause of the problem.

 

[MeteorMiss]

I'd like to argue that rain has hardly hurt stall at all. People are complaining that something like Keldeo is too powerful with hydro pumps. Here are a list of Pokemon that can avoid getting 2HKO'd by any of specs Keldeo's STABS.

Celebi
Latias
Toxicroak
Jellicent
Gastrodon? (I don't have time to run calcs right now, but I don't think secret sword 2HKO's. I might be wrong.)
Latios with bulk investment (usually outclassed by Latias)

In addition, here are the pokemon that can easily switch into one of the STAB moves (not too impractical due to specs locking). Most of these can switch into Hydro Pumps, and let's face it: a choice-locked Secret Sword is hardly threatening.

Chansey
Blissey
Ferrothorn
Abomasnow
Any Fighting Resist

 

[Hugin]

We're getting off-topic. Keldeo isn't broken, we debated that a month ago, but that's not the point. Keldeo has a serious power boost due to rain that makes tanking it's attacks very, very difficult, that's the point. Note how 3 of the hard walls you list are utterly immune to water? Not resistant, but completely able to ignore it? They take the exact same damage from Squirtle's bubble as they do from Kyogre's Water Spout. Because even resists are not enough unless you're seriously bulky or immune to Water, not in this meta. Blissey is 3HKO'd by a neutral special hit, that really shouldn't be a thing.

(Also, yeah, Keldeo needs the ability to switch moves, his coverage is too odd otherwise. I go EBelt for him, but Specs is just as common and it made the math easier).

Someone pointed out earlier that the main theme of this gen's bannings have been "free boosts". Speed Boost, Sand Rush, Swift Swim, Download, Regenerator, basically anything that gives you something with no turn cost. Turns are valuable, getting around that limit is a serious advantage. Rain is like that, giving a free +1 to the most powerful attacks you've got. That's really just too much of a boost when you can's simply phase it away.

 

[Conflict]

I honestly think Weather is fine and i also thought Weather and even Rain was fine when more of the now banned suspects were allowed (Gene, Torn-T, etc. pp.).

Ive used pretty much every weather as well as countless weatherless teams and they are all fine. Obviously team matchup will always be a huge factor but team matchup already mattered in all the other gens to a certein degree when 2 good battlers faced off against each other (you can even 'ct' in RBY).
Its no surprise that the importance of team matchup is even bigger in BW2 because the pool of useable Pokemon has grown again and one is still left to cover another ~150 threats with still 6 Mons. The amount of threats grows but the amount of Mons one can use on 1 team doesnt (ADV: 350-6; DPP: 450-6; BW ~600-6). Logic dictates that a team of 6 cant keep up with this exponential growth and therefore cant cover everything (even in older gens every team had a few 'loopholes'). Therefore team matchup will always be a factor unless we ban a considerable amount of Mons which isnt really feasible.
If the matchup isnt totally rigged (i.e. youre hard walled or forgot to bring your Terrakion counter, etc.) one is even able to close the gap between two teams with outstanding skill and good predictions or with the decision to take a risk. That team matchup entirely decides a match is hardly if ever the case because team preview gives the disadvantaged one an idea what hes dealing with and thus allows him to come up with countermeasures (i.e. taking a risk to turn it around, example: staying in with Scizor vs. SR-Heatran and using Superpower). So essentially team preview lessens the importance of team matchups and therefore also making weather less dangerous.

On another point i enjoy playing with and against weather because it presents a distinct difference to earlier generations and makes BW a special experience. Even in BW we have a huge pool of Mons that can work in OU under the right circumstances. You almost never see a Steelix, Weezing or Sceptile in ADV OU nowadays but these Mons are all good if used right and the same applies to the multitude of Mons available in BW. Most people just take the 'lazy' approach and create their team from what is available (and listed) in OU because its the easier way and has a lesser chance of failure.
So most people trust in the tried-and-true tactics because they a) work and b) are easy to understand as well as proven to be succesful. You need someone that showcases less used Mons to bring them into the spotlight.
Personally i would appreciate retests of certain suspects because from my point of view the fewer bans the better.

I often get the impression that many of you try to recreate the ADV- or DPP-metagame in BW which obviously doesnt make any sense. We shouldnt try to modify a new generation to our liking and personal bias based upon previous metagames. The new generation will NEVER be the same as a previous one and we shouldnt try to strive for that. Instead we should focus on making the new generation work and banning only the broken parts and not the different ones. As long as nothing stands out as completely overpowering it is fine. Rain might be the best playstyle but there will always be a superior playstyle or a better Mon than others (TTar in ADV is the best Mon and it can sweep even if you pack counters but we didnt ban it back then because with careful play it could be handled). (I also do not agree that Rain is the undisputed best playstyle!)
Banning Rain or auto-weather just ebcause you dislike it is a flawed approach because like or dislike as well as 'enjoying or not enjoying' a metagame is completely subjective and not measurable.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I often get the impression that many of you try to recreate the ADV- or DPP-metagame in BW which obviously doesnt make any sense.

I agree as well, and I feel like I've noticed this on other occasions, especially in previous generations (the most notable example probably being in Gen IV how we initially made a BL list so that UU would basically be the same as Gen III but with the new Pokemon we thought to be of similar strength allowed in).

I've seen a few comments like "Drizzle and Drought should go to Ubers where they belong". Why do people think they "belong" there? I think it's mainly because that's the way it was before, and people are used to it being that way. But now with the likes of Vulpix getting Drought, I don't think it really has to "belong" to Ubers anymore.

 

[nyttyn]

(Prefacing this point by saying that, while I personally voted to Keep as is, I am going into this with a neutral viewpoint)

Important words

Think I have to agree here.

At the end of the day, while it's up to the council if they decide to retest drizzle, I am confused as to why they keep avoiding doing so. We test things that may potentially be overbearing or harmful for the metagame, right? Keyword here: Potentially. We really don't have a solid consensus, it seems, given that there poll's so close. People have been arguing back and forth for over 300 posts now, but without ammunition in the form of evidence all this is going to be is a cock-waving fest about who has the biggest argumentive dick.

I mean, if something's really causing this much indecision, hate, and bile, the logical decision is to just put it to the sword. Drizzle is, no matter how you feel about it, not sacred. It is an aspect of pokemon like any other, and deserves to be put to trial just as Moody was, just as Garchomp was, Excadrill was, Genesect was, Tornadus-T was, Keldeo was, Deoxys-S, Darkrai, so on and so forth. We hold no move sacred, no ability sacred, no pokemon sacred. We do not have double jeopardy, and that should not be a legitimate argument against it, especially given that the first Drizzle suspect was in a radically different metagame which lacked many of the tutor moves, DW abilities, and even a few pokemon that BW2 has had.

Once again, it's entirely possible people will vote with prejudice. But isn't that why we have tiering reqs? So people can't just vote their opinion and move on, but are instead forced to show competency and experience the metagame with/without the suspect? If we're going to say "Nah, people are just going to be baised about it," then what is the goddamn point of the suspect system in the first place?

Finally, what else is there to test at this point? Certainly nothing as large or as impacting as Drizzle is, nor anything that has inspired as much discussion and debate. There's really nothing else to look at without delibatrely favoring Drizzle. Nor will looking at Drizzle impact anything of note, because we really don't have much else to look at save, uh...Deoxys-Defense Forme?

Once again, I am at this point holding a neutral point of view, as I really have no fucking clue how a non-Drizzle BW2 metagame would play. You don't either. That's why we should test it.

tl;dr Gogo trials, retest drizzle, over 300 posts of debate in barely more then a week says something, put this to rest once and for all, no harm in doing so.

 

[Lee]

anyone pushing for a drizzle retest should be explaining why we need to retest it, having held a vote on it a mere four months ago wherein it failed to acquire the needed majority.

granted we also voted to ban Baton Pass that round so we could just write it off as an off day

 

[nyttyn]

anyone pushing for a drizzle retest should be explaining why we need to retest it, having held a vote on it a mere four months ago wherein it failed to acquire the needed majority.

granted we also voted to ban Baton Pass that round so we could just write it off as an off day

Because that vote was far over four months ago.

It ended on Oct 3rd, 2011, 2:38:12 PM

It was over a year ago.

In a entirely different meta.

 

[Lee]

whoops!

was sure it was longer than 4 months, heh. still, the arguments people made to retain Drizzle back then still stand up today so it's not a completely irrelevant insight...

 

[Deglas]

Is it because they can't build them?

In my case, yes. And want to know why I can't build them? Because I cannot gain the experience with weatherless I need to build a good weatherless team, unless I can build a decent team first. And I lack the ability to build a decent weatherless team, because of the limitations imposed by weather. If I build a weatherless team, I am restricted from the outset. I need:
1. Something to handle rain-boosted water attacks.
2. Something to handle sun-boosted fire attacks.
3. Something to handle powerful Thunders. (and not get screwed over by the paralysis)
4. Something to handle powerful Hurricanes. (and not get screwed over by the confusion)
5. To avoid using as many fire type attacks myself, because they are nerfed by rain.
6. To avoid using as many water type attacks myself, because they are nerfed by sun.
EDIT: 7. Very fast Scarfer/strong priority for Chlorophyll and Sand Rush Pokemon. END EDIT

On the other hand, if I run weather, those restrictions can be mostly ignored.

Someone pointed out earlier that the main theme of this gen's bannings have been "free boosts". Speed Boost, Sand Rush, Swift Swim, Download, Regenerator, basically anything that gives you something with no turn cost. Turns are valuable, getting around that limit is a serious advantage. Rain is like that, giving a free +1 to the most powerful attacks you've got. That's really just too much of a boost when you can's simply phase it away.

Yes, like I was saying earlier, WEATHER BREAKS THE ACTION ECONOMY PEOPLE! By action economy, I mean the value of turns. The turn I switch in my weather inducer has a huge value, much higher than that of other actions I might take in one turn. This is almost universally true, because weather provides boosts to my ENTIRE TEAM for the potentially the ENTIRE BATTLE at the cost of ONE TURN. Turns, fundamentally, are what Pokemon battles are won or lost by. Even at top levels, victory is often that turn you get to set up with your Dragon Dance Dragonite or whatever other similar Pokemon you have. Weather, however, "sets up" an entire team in one turn, and the boosts cannot simply be phazed away.

 

[Bent1ey]

Personally I don't want the community to go all ban-happy, which is why I don't even consider discussing going after Sun if Drizzle ever gets banned, I salute the initiative of downgrading Kyurem-B to the OU format and if Drizzle ever gets banned I expect to test pokes for possible unbannings instead of going after the next high threat. This should be seen as the opportunity of creating a new meta and not just destroying the current one, I think it's critical to meet the Drizzle-less to have a full grasp of what it would mean to ban it.

This is why I think testing for Drizzle it's quite tricky, because its more important to get a glimpse of how a non-Drizzle meta would be instead of just deciding if Drizzle is broken by itself. So the ladder itself plays a critical part as of how to approach this issue, to judge how a non-Drizzle meta would be needs enough time to be settled down and this may be practically impossible. This isn't precisely an easy task and it may doom the process to failure if not presented correctly.

 

[probationsmack]

I think Deglas forgot to mention weather teams (specifically sun and sand as they do not have complex bans) also force weatherless to run a scarfer above a certain HIGH speed tier that can also effectively deal with say... Stoutland or Venusaur. For awhile I was running Scarf Infernape which was still a crapshoot if they ran full investment Timid on a growth Venusaur. You can try to run something liked banded Mamoswine (but blah because life orb was so much more useful) or any number of things, but in the end I was always spread too thin and no amount of tinkering could get me to enact any strategy that could effectively deal with all the major archetypes in rotation without resorting to very rigid cores or specific pokemon. I never felt the need to that in fourth gen, and I greatly appreciated the flexibility in team building which allowed me to constantly keep up the surprise factor and y'know, generally build momentum back in my direction if I did fuck up. Now say, if you're shaky counter to rain abusers is taken out for whatever reason you might as well gg.

I've taken a very long hiatus from the meta until weather is addressed properly, but I feel like we have snobby tryhards among our policy makers who have let 'play to win' cloud their judgement.

 

[BKC]

man oh man i am so sick of you twisting my arguments or just ignoring certain parts so it's more convenient for you

BKC, it seems like you're talking to a brick wall, because your arguments are just not coherent / rational, and I wont pretend to agree with something incoherent / irrational.

lol don't give me that horseshit. i think you're the only one who has actually called the cohesion of my arguments into question, which shows you're really grasping for anything you can get right now.

Match-ups exist everywhere. Even when the opponent does not bring in Rain. And NO, matches are not lost or won solely by presence of Rain / Sun; please don't throw out egregious statement as if they're true.jou still have to play the game to win. Sure a standard Sand team may have an upper edge against a standard Rain team, but that is not equivalent to "instant win / loss."

some examples.
rain team -- politoed/toxicroak/tornadus/keldeo/starmie/ferrothorn
sand team -- hippowdon/forretress/jellicent/celebi/heatran/scarftar
sun team -- ninetales/dugtrio/forretress or xatu/venusaur/latias/trapper heatran
weatherless team -- deoxys-d/gengar/scizor/terrakion/keldeo/latios

rain vs. sand

this IS an instant win for the sand team, right from team preview. rain is NEVER winning this match-up. it's more than a mere "upper edge" for the sand team; the only way the sand user can lose is if he actually TRIES to throw the game away. go ahead and find a way to win for the rain team, unless you want to admit defeat since provided the sand team's user has half a brain, he'll make the simple plays and win by default. if you call that rain team mediocre or bad then i just don't know what to tell you. then again you called tabloo a mediocre team so who knows...

rain vs. weatherless

rain's never losing this, as it has the permanent weather advantage, and starmie completely crushes deogar, so the weatherless team's not going to get a chance to overwhelm with hazards [sr and spikes usually aren't even enough]. tornadus brutally slaughters everything with a hurricane that will never miss, only revenge killing option is scarf keldeo, who's totally walled by toxicroak. the only time weatherless doesn't get completely fuckwrecked by rain is when it bends over backwards countering it, which offensive teams can't afford to do. the best they can do is run kingdra who can't even OHKO keldeo and can't hope to break ferro.

rain vs. sun

yeah...politoed will get trapped by tran or dugtrio and then venusaur/latias have fun. you can't maintain hazard control because forre will shit on ferro all day. if the rain team decided to get cute and run dugtrio over whoever, the game becomes "who can trap the other's weather inducer first" -- an EXCELLENT display of skill.

sun vs. sand

hippo can't be trapped, it sets sr that forre can't spin, meaning you can force sand on them again and again till tales dies and then you win. fun.

sun vs. weatherless

if the sun team has forre it loses, if it has xatu it wins. either way it's an extreme case of matchup, whether beneficial or not doesn't matter.

rain vs. rain

lol

sun vs. sun

lol

sand vs. sand

the better player wins this.

Not to mention a Rain team is a team with Politoed in it - the other 5 Pokemon are not fixed and are dynamic. It's up to the player how much "match-up reliant" there team becomes by how much emphasis they put on Rain dependence.

yes, rain teams have politoed; that is precisely what makes them what they are, and what makes them so match-up reliant. also contrary to popular belief, rain teams are very rigidly built, the only thing differentiating them from one another is usually a single mon or two.

And regarding mirror match-Ups. Since when did outplaying your opponent ever meant a "coin flip" win? It's as if neither player had control over the game, as if the entire game was ruled by chance or hax... completely ridiculous statement. The only increased element of chance are the potentially higher incidence of speed ties, if players even resort to such desperate / risky calls.

it's not ridiculous at all. a rain vs. rain match-up or a sun vs. sun match-up is literally speed ties and other such things...

Not to mention mirror match-ups have always existed since the beginning of Pokemon. Yes, people tend to use standard teams. Removing rain wont make it go away or even lessen it, lol. Haven't you seen goofball's superman mirror match-ups back in ADV? or a game of RBY or GSC??? People would still risk having "mirror" Deo-D teams; Sand teams; Keldeo + TTar teams; DragMag teams, Taylor's weatherless team, or what have you.

i'm not complaining about mirror matches in general. i'm complaining about the mirror matches that are decided on coinflips because they're so hit-or-miss, i.e. rain and sun. remember gene vs goofball in that adv botw? same team but gene played better and he won. the winner of a gsc match almost never wins on a coinflip and absolutely never on team matchup [to my knowledge]. deo-d is also a broken sack of shit but that's a different discussion.

Regarding diversity - It's entirely understandable to say that metagame diversity is reduced by the loss of a major team archetype (aka Drizzle ban), but claiming that rain lowers meta diversity cannot be further from the truth - it's just a claim that is void of any substance, similarly to claims of how presence of Rain / Sun "worsens" team match-ups and mirror matches. What exactly is this "diversity" you speak of, cuz all I see is a meta of Rain / Sun / Sand / Weatherless be reduced to Sun / Sand / Weatherless, which to me is less diversity.

first off; how does drizzle make the meta diverse? the teams are literally all the same with a mon change here and there. also remember the diversity of dpp? a sand/weatherless metagame has its own diversity that it can't use to its full extent because of drizzle. you can't categorise all weatherless teams as the same. if you say dpp teams are all the same as a rebuttal then you clearly don't know the tier.

also diversity is not an argument to keep something that clearly puts less emphasis on player skill in the metagame. i'm just trying to show you that it's not all going to be the same without drizzle, which you seem so worried about even though it's not even a valid argument.

I can't believe I need to explain all this tbh -.-

i don't care who you are, don't fucking condescend to me like that.

 

[DISBIT]

Probation I too have taken a bit of a brake from this metagame until weather is properly addressed. Something needs to be done. Wasn't the reason salamence and garchomp were banned in dpp because certain pokemon had to be carried on every team to successfully counter these threats. That makes OU very centralized around a small percentage of its pokemon effectively killing diversity in the tier. This is the same battle we are are seeing this gen with weathers. We are having to counter too many threats who are too easily able to make themselves threatening. It is too exhausting and has centralized the metagame around whether or not you want to abuse rain, sun, or sand or counter rain, sun, or sand. For better metagame diversity, and ultimately fun, I think it can be seen that the "banning all weather" argument holds some weight.

 

[Pocket]

I honestly think Weather is fine and i also thought Weather and even Rain was fine when more of the now banned suspects were allowed (Gene, Torn-T, etc. pp.).

Ive used pretty much every weather as well as countless weatherless teams and they are all fine. Obviously team matchup will always be a huge factor but team matchup already mattered in all the other gens to a certein degree when 2 good battlers faced off against each other (you can even 'ct' in RBY).
Its no surprise that the importance of team matchup is even bigger in BW2 because the pool of useable Pokemon has grown again and one is still left to cover another ~150 threats with still 6 Mons. The amount of threats grows but the amount of Mons one can use on 1 team doesnt (ADV: 350-6; DPP: 450-6; BW ~600-6). Logic dictates that a team of 6 cant keep up with this exponential growth and therefore cant cover everything (even in older gens every team had a few 'loopholes'). Therefore team matchup will always be a factor unless we ban a considerable amount of Mons which isnt really feasible.
If the matchup isnt totally rigged (i.e. youre hard walled or forgot to bring your Terrakion counter, etc.) one is even able to close the gap between two teams with outstanding skill and good predictions or with the decision to take a risk. That team matchup entirely decides a match is hardly if ever the case because team preview gives the disadvantaged one an idea what hes dealing with and thus allows him to come up with countermeasures (i.e. taking a risk to turn it around, example: staying in with Scizor vs. SR-Heatran and using Superpower). So essentially team preview lessens the importance of team matchups and therefore also making weather less dangerous.

On another point i enjoy playing with and against weather because it presents a distinct difference to earlier generations and makes BW a special experience. Even in BW we have a huge pool of Mons that can work in OU under the right circumstances. You almost never see a Steelix, Weezing or Sceptile in ADV OU nowadays but these Mons are all good if used right and the same applies to the multitude of Mons available in BW. Most people just take the 'lazy' approach and create their team from what is available (and listed) in OU because its the easier way and has a lesser chance of failure.
So most people trust in the tried-and-true tactics because they a) work and b) are easy to understand as well as proven to be succesful. You need someone that showcases less used Mons to bring them into the spotlight.
Personally i would appreciate retests of certain suspects because from my point of view the fewer bans the better.

I often get the impression that many of you try to recreate the ADV- or DPP-metagame in BW which obviously doesnt make any sense. We shouldnt try to modify a new generation to our liking and personal bias based upon previous metagames. The new generation will NEVER be the same as a previous one and we shouldnt try to strive for that. Instead we should focus on making the new generation work and banning only the broken parts and not the different ones. As long as nothing stands out as completely overpowering it is fine. Rain might be the best playstyle but there will always be a superior playstyle or a better Mon than others (TTar in ADV is the best Mon and it can sweep even if you pack counters but we didnt ban it back then because with careful play it could be handled). (I also do not agree that Rain is the undisputed best playstyle!)
Banning Rain or auto-weather just because you dislike it is a flawed approach because like or dislike as well as 'enjoying or not enjoying' a metagame is completely subjective and not measurable.

This post pretty much captures all my thoughts to a tee. Well-said, Conflict!

BKC, if you still think that a BW game is sealed at the initial team preview / mirror match-ups are mere coinflips, then it's pointless to reason with you. But I'll entertain with your scenario:

EB / LO Keldeo pretty much decimates that sand team after some residual damage on Jellicent / Celebi for a HP Ghost 2HKO.

That weatherless team is at a disadvantage, and it's gonna be an uphill battle for it. Still Sub LO Terrakion has a good chance of putting big holes to this team for CM Latios or Scarf Keldeo to clean up. Replacing Gengar with Rotom-W can improve the chances further.

Sand vs Sun depends on whether or not TTar could kill Xatu before it dies to Dugtrio. To me this is more Stall losing to Xatu more than weather being a problem.

Sun vs weatherless: whose to say that the weatherless player needs to be dumb and lead with Deoxys-D? Lead off with Latios and start busting holes, hazards aren't even necessary to win here.

Rain vs Rain - the player with better plays / better team wins

Sun vs Sun - look above

Sand vs Sand - look above

Thus, team match-up is not as bad as you make it out to be. This is exactly why I am calling out your arguments as "horseshit," because they are poorly supported. ggs -.-

 

[Deglas]

some examples.
rain team -- politoed/toxicroak/tornadus/keldeo/starmie/ferrothorn
sand team -- hippowdon/forretress/jellicent/celebi/heatran/scarftar
sun team -- ninetales/dugtrio/forretress or xatu/venusaur/latias/trapper heatran
weatherless team -- deoxys-d/gengar/scizor/terrakion/keldeo/latios

rain vs. sand

this IS an instant win for the sand team, right from team preview. rain is NEVER winning this match-up. it's more than a mere "upper edge" for the sand team; the only way the sand user can lose is if he actually TRIES to throw the game away. go ahead and find a way to win for the rain team, unless you want to admit defeat since provided the sand team's user has half a brain, he'll make the simple plays and win by default. if you call that rain team mediocre or bad then i just don't know what to tell you. then again you called tabloo a mediocre team so who knows...

rain vs. weatherless

rain's never losing this, as it has the permanent weather advantage, and starmie completely crushes deogar, so the weatherless team's not going to get a chance to overwhelm with hazards [sr and spikes usually aren't even enough]. tornadus brutally slaughters everything with a hurricane that will never miss, only revenge killing option is scarf keldeo, who's totally walled by toxicroak. the only time weatherless doesn't get completely fuckwrecked by rain is when it bends over backwards countering it, which offensive teams can't afford to do. the best they can do is run kingdra who can't even OHKO keldeo and can't hope to break ferro.

rain vs. sun

yeah...politoed will get trapped by tran or dugtrio and then venusaur/latias have fun. you can't maintain hazard control because forre will shit on ferro all day. if the rain team decided to get cute and run dugtrio over whoever, the game becomes "who can trap the other's weather inducer first" -- an EXCELLENT display of skill.

sun vs. sand

hippo can't be trapped, it sets sr that forre can't spin, meaning you can force sand on them again and again till tales dies and then you win. fun.

sun vs. weatherless

if the sun team has forre it loses, if it has xatu it wins. either way it's an extreme case of matchup, whether beneficial or not doesn't matter.

BKC, I don't really follow any of your arguements. All you seem to be doing here is saying x beats y, without much elaboration. The first example you gave, rain vs. sand, has NO concrete examples. The reasoning you give for sand beating rain boils down to "sand beats rain". The rest of your examples are barely any better, with nearly nothing in the way of logical reasoning. If you want to convince people, you have to do more than just repeating your arguement loudly and slowly.

 

[G-Von]

the realness

Ok, but seriously now. To my knowledge discussion on whether Drizzle or any perma-weather are broken or not has been heating up. When I first saw this poll, I voted "keep it as it is" because I figured that we might as well ride out into the sunset with XY coming out in October. As I read all these posts my opinion began changing and started to wish that I could change my vote. Although there have been some interesting posts made about keeping Drizzle OU, the main thing that has convinced me is the fact that many bans have been made to neuter Drizzle just so that it would remain in OU instead of getting suspected and there is STILL discussion and major evidence that Rain is still OP AF.

However, talking is going to get us no where fast. We only have a short amount of time to correct a huge flaw in this metagame until the 6th generation begins. Personally, this is how I would do it if I had any control over suspecting: Suspect Drought and Drizzle. Set up 3 suspect ladders on PS! which include a ladder without Drizzle, a ladder without Drought, and a ladder without both. People would be able to get a clear view of how the metagame would be with one of or both of the abilities banned while also keeping the regular OU ladder open. My apologies in advanced to Zarel if it is a pain in the ass to set this all up, but this would be the most accurate way of dealing with the issue at hand.

 

[BKC]

BKC, if you still think that a BW game is sealed at the initial team preview / mirror match-ups are mere coinflips, then it's pointless to reason with you.

Only the ones with sun and rain. Stop twisting my words.

But I'll entertain with your scenario:

EB / LO Keldeo pretty much decimates that sand team after some residual damage on Jellicent / Celebi for a HP Ghost 2HKO.

It's getting worn down by hazards + sand, needs residual damage on TWO mons to even get a chance to two-shot them, and still gets revenged by ScarfTar. Nope.

That weatherless team is at a disadvantage, and it's gonna be an uphill battle for it. Still Sub LO Terrakion has a good chance of putting big holes to this team for CM Latios or Scarf Keldeo to clean up. Replacing Gengar with Rotom-W can improve the chances further.

Nah it's pretty much unwinnable. Without Gengar the team would have a horrendous matchup against any team with Forretress or Tentacruel [unless you run a sub-optimal Deo-D set...].

Sand vs Sun depends on whether or not TTar could kill Xatu before it dies to Dugtrio. To me this is more Stall losing to Xatu more than weather being a problem.

So...it comes down to a 50/50 instead of an auto win. Yes this definitely emphasises skill above all else.

Sun vs weatherless: whose to say that the weatherless player needs to be dumb and lead with Deoxys-D? Lead off with Latios and start busting holes, hazards aren't even necessary to win here.

Good luck beating Venusaur...

Rain vs Rain - the player with better plays / better team wins

Have you ever watched rain stall vs rain stall?

Sun vs Sun - look above

Whoever gets the first QD with Volc or Growth with Venu wins. Fascinating. I'll admit I exaggerated the mirror matches a bit but the point still stands.

Sand vs Sand - look above

That's what I said, there's no weather-driven matchup bullshit here.

Thus, team match-up is not as bad as you make it out to be. This is exactly why I am calling out your arguments as "horseshit," because they are poorly supported. ggs -.-

I exaggerated the mirror matches a little [and even that's a bit of a stretch, whatever] but everything else is one hundred percent true. "ggs."

Deglas if you want a concrete example of how the sand team beats rain, here you go: Hippo comes in on Toxicroak, sets up SR that can't be spun. Wear down Toed while countering the threats and keeping sand up as much as possible. No amount of good switching will get rain out of it.

 

[Ojama]

I'd like to argue that rain has hardly hurt stall at all. People are complaining that something like Keldeo is too powerful with hydro pumps. Here are a list of Pokemon that can avoid getting 2HKO'd by any of specs Keldeo's STABS.

Celebi
Latias
Toxicroak
Jellicent
Gastrodon? (I don't have time to run calcs right now, but I don't think secret sword 2HKO's. I might be wrong.)
Latios with bulk investment (usually outclassed by Latias)

In addition, here are the pokemon that can easily switch into one of the STAB moves (not too impractical due to specs locking). Most of these can switch into Hydro Pumps, and let's face it: a choice-locked Secret Sword is hardly threatening.

Chansey
Blissey
Ferrothorn
Abomasnow
Any Fighting Resist

CMKeldeo literally destroys all these threats you just said. Latias and Celebi have a chance to be 2HKO'd by HP Ghost / HP Ice from SpecsKeldeo after Stealth Rock damage.

252SpAtk Choice Specs Keldeo (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ghost) vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Celebi (+SpDef): 40% - 48% (164 - 194 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

It's a 2HKO after SR actually, won't even talk about the fact that Celebi rarely runs a 252/252 spread, so that just means SDef Celebi is always 2HKO'd by Hp Ghost from SpecsKeldeo after SR. In addition Tyranitar, one of Keldeo's best partners, easily traps them, giving Keldeo a chance to decimate the rest of the team by spamming Hydropump / Secret Sword.

Toxicroak is 2HKO'd by Secret Sword if its the SD Set (the most used atm), Blissey is OHKO, Ferrothorn takes at least 70%, same shit for Latios and Gastrodon. And lol @Abomasnow.

I do agree that Jellicent is Keldeo's best counter due to the fact that it takes 46% max from Specs HP Ghost. Lol yah, it can be a 2HKO with SR up... Also yah, I agree that SpecsKeldeo requires some skill when the opponent is using Celebi / Jellicent etc but once more, Tyranitar traps the majority of them. CMKeldeo is actually the worse thing to face because it doesn't get locked on a Pump / Secret Sword and restaures some HP with Leftovers. Also we forgot Amoonguss my bad, lol. But I think it's enough to show how broken is Keldeo and in my opinion deserves to be banned...

Let's talk about Weather a bit because this is the subject of the thread I guess lol. Keldeo is actually able to decimate a Sand Team with HP Ghost + the aid of Tyranitar as I just said it, but you really have to be amazing in your predictions. I do agree that the CM Set can destroy a Sand.

Actually, Sun seems to be the dumbest weather. It's all about trapping the opponent's weather inducer and winning with Venusaur because it's super fast in Sun and gets Growth + Giga Drain. Victini in Sun is also one of the dumbest Pokemons I have ever seen. Even though it's hard to be really original with a Rain, it's even less possible to be original with a Sun : it's ALWAYS the same thing and it's REALLY boring to face a Sun.

I'd like to add that a weatherless Team almost always loses to a Sun Team. Like Pocket said it, you cannot beat Venusaur, Victini or even Volcarona.

Last thing, faced a Rain with Thundurus-T, Azumarill, Keldeo etc with a Sand. No need to say that it's really hard to handle those guys in Rain especially when you aren't using Jellicent and Celebi. Additionally, I was using Hippowdon which is a disadvantage against a Rain Offense because you can't trap Politoed with Tyranitar and make some damage too. Keldeo, Thundurus-t etc "easily" switch on Hippowdon. I still managed to win thanks to Latias. I'm just saying this to show that even though Rain teams are strong, they aren't unstoppable even with a "bad matchup". There are "many" checks / counters that you can add in your team. 99% of the time, 2 water resists like Rotom-W + Latias are enough to check Rain teams.

Rain vs Rain only depends on the matchup, it's absolutely not Drizzle's fault. Sand vs Rain doesn't depend on the matchup but in my opinion on the skill (sand has an advantage though). Just pointing out that Drizzle isn't our biggest problem imo... My main problem is definitely Drought, not Drizzle. I'm really surprised that no one uses Sun in the current Metagame...

 

[UltiMario]

Anyone that implies any weatherless team vs a well played weather team is an impossible match-up deserves to be shot. Especially if it's Rain or Sun. In my experiences fucking Stoutland of all things tends to be the weather sweeper that's the most difficult to deal with, and there's a good reason for that.

IMO, Weatherless vs Sun/Rain starts 6-5 (Politoed with specs is about as bad as it gets for Weatherless, and even then you should still only take 60% max taking it down). Do they have a weather sweeper that's HEAVILY advantageous against my team if it sets up? Likely so, but there's two issues. One, they're already a mon down, so I'm free to sack one thing against it and it's no big deal. Two, once I do nail it... that's a pretty big blow to a weather team. Most sun teams are designed to support a Venusaur and/or Volcorona sweep. Getting and keeping rocks up is by no means difficult, and if you don't have something to take on Venusaur, you probably have a terribly built team because you're lacking something that can handle set-up sweepers as a whole. Sun teams especially fall apart when their sweepers go down, weatherless doesn't have this issue because it's not carring like 2-3 mediocre mons just to make Venusaur better.

With Rain, sometimes you have to worry about Keldeo, Thundy, or Jirachi setting up on you. It varies from team to team. None of these set-up sets are near overpowering though (Keldeo especially as shown by our last suspect vote). Most the issue with rain just comes from the constant barrage of double STAB water moves, but IMO that's actually easier to deal with than Sun or Sand. Rain isn't that hard to keep in check rather easily with stuff like Jirachi, Latis, Bulky Waters, and Amoonguss. There's plenty of options (which synergize well together) that can combat rain.

Sand of all things is the most threatening to weatherless IMO. The game doesn't start 6-5 in favor of the weatherless team because Tyranitar doesn't suck, and it makes it much more stressful to keep your checks and counters for stuff like Terrakion, Landorus, and Stoutland alive.

And as a last statement: More weatherless teams need to use TR Reuniclus. That thing is like the glue that holds weatherless together. I cannot count how many games have gone like from like 1-3 to 1-0 because I saved Reuniclus to the very end and cleaned up weakened teams because I knocked out their priority user and got a TR up with a sliver of health left.

Hide

252 +2 SpAtk Life Orb Venusaur (+SpAtk) Energy Ball vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Reuniclus: 83.73% - 98.58%
252 Atk Choice Band Stoutland (+Atk) Crunch vs 252 HP/4 Def Reuniclus: 71.23% - 83.96%
252 SpAtk Life Orb Keldeo-R Surf vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Reuniclus: 81.37% - 95.75%

Beware.