Gen V STABmons

[Seraph's Fire]

Ok so it's a possible KO (def not guaranteed, stealth rocks is pretty rare in stabmons, AND the Sawsbuck has to be life orb, which is even rarer because he has to boost with belly drum and the recoil is insane), but every other counter I listed works.

Yeah, I wasn't disagreeing with that, just pointing out the one flaw that I noticed.
On ESpeed being banned or not, I'm pretty neutral, but leaning towards yes. It makes the metagame very priority based, and you're pretty much going to be swept by gutsaring if you don't have a mon that can survive AND KO back. (I personally use Chandelure for this purpose because it can switch into fake out and easily OHKO while being able to outspeed.)
The primary advantage I see to banning it is it would make some set up sweepers a lot more viable. A Shell Smasher or Quiver Dancer has to have priority or it will just die to ESpeed before doing much.

 

[effyouzion]

So if you ban it the game would go from being all about espeeders to all about shell smashers. And shell smashers might even be overpowered in that meta, because right now priority is the main thing keeping them in check. You can't exactly switch to your Skarm to phase that Flareon while he uses Shell Smash. You could try and use things like mach punch Terrakion BP Scizor, but they're generally too weak to take out certain things like a -1 Vaporeon.

 

[Halliday]

Not at all, as the only really threatening SS sweepers are Azu, Espeon, and Glareon. I might be forgetting some, but still. If E-speed was banned, it would really bring up the viability of a lot of pokemon. Also, don't bring assumptions into an argument like this. You have not played STABmons without E-speed and thus don't know what will be good and what will suck without it.

 

[Seraph's Fire]

Not at all, as the only really threatening SS sweepers are Azu, Espeon, and Glareon. I might be forgetting some, but still. If E-speed was banned, it would really bring up the viability of a lot of pokemon. Also, don't bring assumptions into an argument like this. You have not played STABmons without E-speed and thus don't know what will be good and what will suck without it.

Meloetta is a good shell smasher too, though it's arguable whether it's better than espy.
I agree with this post overall.

 

[Arcticblast]

Well if Extremespeed is your problem with setup sweepers, why not try out sweepers that resist it? I'm thinking...

Excadrill @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Trait: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Gear Grind / Rock Slide

I've really only had one STABmons battle (where I played this badly lol), but Excadrill seems just as deadly here as it was in OU, as long as you're willing to use Substitute and a Sand inducer. That blocks status like Prankster Spore, letting Excadrill get in a free Swords Dance and proceed to wreak havoc.

Note: The combination of Sand Force and Shift Gear has a slightly lower damage output.

 

[urdrakonis]

How about, in addition to banning Espeed, changing things so that mons no longer gain stat boosting moves from the STABmons movepool (no Dragon Dance KyuB or Shell Smash Eeveelutions). This way there'll be more STAB in STABmons.

 

[SpartanMalice]

I've been playing STABMons for a long time, and I personally never had a problem with espeed, but hey, it does keep set up sweepers in Check. Also @ Arctic, the thing is, I use exca in my current regular stabmons team, and it's too frail to live a +6 espeed, actually. It can't set up and hit back on a +6 espeeder, that's for sure. And of the espeeders, Azumarill has Aqua Jet and Espeon has Fist Plate Judgement plus base 110 at +2, meaning it's speed is 700 which is faster than Sand Rush drill's 604.

 

[Halliday]

@SM, I think that the point he was making is that excadrill can get past ursaring, which is a great thing for a sweeper. Another good thing about exca is that it's the only SG abuser that can get past quagsire (except energy ball jirachi, but come on) maybe due to mold breaker, but I'm pretty sure it beats it anyways.

 

[effyouzion]

Not at all, as the only really threatening SS sweepers are Azu, Espeon, and Glareon. I might be forgetting some, but still. If E-speed was banned, it would really bring up the viability of a lot of pokemon. Also, don't bring assumptions into an argument like this. You have not played STABmons without E-speed and thus don't know what will be good and what will suck without it.

Well you haven't played it either, and you saying "If E-speed was banned, it would really bring up the viability of a lot of pokemon." is just as much of an assumption as anything I said.

 

[EV]

Would dropping more Ubers alleviate some of the exploitation of ESpeed/Boosters or increase it?

Giratina and Lugia look pretty innocuous and might help slow down some big threats.

Or boosting moves could be restricted. I think ESpeed is necessary to check a lot of boosters atm, and if BD/SS/SG are banned, it may drop in usage.

Thoughts?

 

[Halliday]

I really don't think dropping the two great walls would be a good idea. The reason I want e-speed banned is because it is way too centralizing, and without it, there are not many viable options. Bringing down those two pokemon would just centralize the metagame even move, and force every team to run one of them, which is what a ban should be designed to avoid

 

[TLCJR4LIFE]

Blows my mind people are talking about "centralization" in a minor other meta.

If Ursaring is a problem we've seen how easily it's checked in Glitchmons where you can run two and have V-Create to avoid getting hardwalled by the myriad of things that can check it in this metagame.

The idea that Giratina and Lugia would be needed on everyteam is quite laughable. However, bringing some walls down from Ubers would likely be healthy given the nature of the STABmons metagame, it essentially created another power creep that need some better defensive powerhouses.


Shell Smash is far bigger of a problem than E-Speed.


Belly Drum + E-Speed is extremely threatening yes, but only viable on like two pokemon.


THe problem with Shell Smash is that it's a garbage ability that makes everything better? You want to ban E-Speed so everythign is a shell smash fest? Makes absolutely no sense to me.

Like I said, not many things can run B-Drum + Espeed, and the things that do are still vunerable to other E-Speeds because they dont get a speed bonus unlike Shell Smash. Ban Shell Smash and people actually can run bulky offense thus making E-Speed generally a lot less threatening.

 

[Halliday]

Ah, but that's the thing. There are 3 or 4 viable shell smash users, in exchange for something like 10 viable extreme speed users. My point about extreme speed being broken is that it completely removes the uses of both choice scarf pokemon and speed based sweepers - rather than bulk based ones. This ultimately makes battles tend to be decided by who's sableye or forretress dies first. This means whether something can sweep or not is decided by walls rather than revenge killers, and completely removes the validity of any team style other than bulky offense, stall, semi-stall and balance.

 

[ellipse]

completely removes the validity of any team style other than bulky offense, stall, semi-stall and balance.

This statement is just untrue. I used a fully hyperoffensive team and I thinked I peaked at #70-something, but now sit in the 90's (username ellipse). E-speed is a dominant force in the metagame game currently, but I don't believe it's any more centralizing than rain is in OU. Every team has to be prepared to deal with it, or else they get swept. Skarm can handle almost every single espeeder except for bibarel and azumarill with superpower or sawsbuck with jump kick, all of which are completely walled by jellicent. Fast rocks, steels, and ghost can also handle the majority of e-speeders, except for scrappymons at +2. What I'm trying to get at here though, is that e-speed isn't broken, it's just something that must be kept in mind when teambuilding, setting up, and attempting to sweep.

 

[Brammi]

Ludicolo now gets Soak and Seed Flare, js.

 

[Halliday]

One thing: USE FORRETRESS, it is so much better than skarmory. The only reason to use skarm is if you NEED that eq immunity or if need phazing. Forretress does the physical wall thing much better, otherwise (because of heal order). And rain IS broken in ou. Most people agree that if gen 6 wasn't coming up, it would be banned. Ask anyone. Also, ludicolo get's spore. :) (would be so good in STABmons doubles)

 

[ellipse]

Forretress can't beat shift gear mons 1v1 outside of metal burst though, because it lacks the phazing that skarm has access to.

 

[Brammi]

Guys, max/max Crustle walls 4 attacks Usaring.

 

[SpartanMalice]

Crustle can appreciate a defensive set I guess, maybe not the SS one due to espeed. And ursaring does have his counters. Almost every other espeeder is faster and will kill it with STAB once it's taken out enough of it's health with flame orb.

 

[Adonzo]

And of course there's the ubiquitous Sableye, who can easily tank a Crunch and OHKO in return with Foul Play.

 

[Mr Omgness]

Forretress can't beat shift gear mons 1v1 outside of metal burst though, because it lacks the phazing that skarm has access to.

Actually this is wrong, the most common shift gearers (Scizor and Metagross) cannot break through Forretress. I've experienced it myself, my Metagross could not take down Forretress. Keep in mind that boosting up further will make Forretress' Gyro Ball hit 150 BP.

 

[Halliday]

Forretress can't beat shift gear mons 1v1 outside of metal burst though, because it lacks the phazing that skarm has access to.

Yeah, that's been my biggest problem with forretress so far, the lack of phazing. If you are having trouble with shift gear users, then may I suggest using quagsire? It walls all of them except for the rare megahorn life orb scizor, but can still set up yawn on it.

 

[McLopez]

Galvantula with Quiver Dance; Shell Smash Espeon; Nasty Plot, Dark Void, Spacial Rend and Night Daze Hydreigon, Shadow Force Dusknoir/Golurk...
Fuck Yes :)

 

[Arcticblast]

@ Arctic, the thing is, I use exca in my current regular stabmons team, and it's too frail to live a +6 espeed, actually. It can't set up and hit back on a +6 espeeder, that's for sure. And of the espeeders, Azumarill has Aqua Jet and Espeon has Fist Plate Judgement plus base 110 at +2, meaning it's speed is 700 which is faster than Sand Rush drill's 604.

The point is that it can't be stopped mid-sweep by a rogue Extremespeed, not that it can take Extremespeeds with impunity. (That's what I have Sableye and Jellicent for!)

snip snip Stoutland Fire Fang 2HKOs Escavalier ban Shell Smash

When the NU subforum had its STABmons minitour, Normal-type moves were not distributed to Normal-type Pokemon. I haven't found out too much about how that went, but I'd sooner remove Normal from the STABmons benefits the type gets than ban individual moves.

 

[Gerard]

Why not remove all status moves from Normal Type Pokemon? This way you keep Judgement, Rapid Spin & ExtremeSpeed but you no longer have to worry about Shell Smash, Bely Drum, etc...