I like Xzard more because it has DD which raises 2 very important offensive stats.
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Pokémon Charizard
- Thread starter X5Dragon
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Silly me, forgot that YZard can't Dragon Dance. Oh wait...
Okay go ahead and run A DD Yzard...
Which will hit harder with Flare Blitz under Sun than Charizard X without it. Both are viable and both have uses (although Charizard X ONLY if you use Outrage, Dragon Claw is too weak).
+1 252 Atk Drought Mega Charizard Y Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 235 - 277 (66.6 - 78.3%)
That'll leave a mark.
The problem with Zard Y is its Typing which is still awful. i'm not talking Rocks weakness both suffer from that at least on initial switch. its Typing, both defensively and offensively is just worse. And even though Flare Blitz hits harder its other moves do not, on the physical spectrum. It is obviously heavily reliant on weather. Meaning even if it does do decent damage to them, Tyranitar and Hippowdon will force it to switch (Politoed forces both out 9/10). It doesn't have boosting options for its prefered spectrum, nor can it boost speed as effectively, despite having the same options due to its typing again. Plus being that Physically weak in a meta with Talonflame and MegaPinsir and Azumarill (Not as big a deal with Drought up) running around is not that great.
MegaZard X can utilize some better coverage options, which are more powerful and of better use than Ys (A More Powerful EQ, Thunder Punch and of course its STAB to hit most things stupidly hard) Can reliably boost to +2 if you play it right (Thus makiong Dragon Claw more than Viable, but you HAVE to get it to +2 in order to utilize it effectively) and its moves are more reliable (It doesn't have to rely or even run Flare Blitz, Fire Punch is just as viable but you have to be committed to boost, Even still Flare Blitz> Fire Blast on a late game cleaner IMO cause it will hit every time. and Zard Y Relys on Focus Miss.........Nuff Said.)
However Both MegaZards are some of the Scariest Megas out there because both of them are so varied, as much as Charizard itself which, when you see it in team preview has gone from a laughing stock and scrub detector to a fearful prospect until you know what your dealing with. Even when you know which Mega it is you can't be sure of what its carrying because so much is viable on it.
MegaZard X can utilize some better coverage options, which are more powerful and of better use than Ys (A More Powerful EQ, Thunder Punch and of course its STAB to hit most things stupidly hard) Can reliably boost to +2 if you play it right (Thus makiong Dragon Claw more than Viable, but you HAVE to get it to +2 in order to utilize it effectively) and its moves are more reliable (It doesn't have to rely or even run Flare Blitz, Fire Punch is just as viable but you have to be committed to boost, Even still Flare Blitz> Fire Blast on a late game cleaner IMO cause it will hit every time. and Zard Y Relys on Focus Miss.........Nuff Said.)
However Both MegaZards are some of the Scariest Megas out there because both of them are so varied, as much as Charizard itself which, when you see it in team preview has gone from a laughing stock and scrub detector to a fearful prospect until you know what your dealing with. Even when you know which Mega it is you can't be sure of what its carrying because so much is viable on it.
In the current metagame, I have had much more success with Charizard-Y over X. This is because of the fact it needs no set up and can hit nearly everything bar dragons (Most of which still take over half from sun boosted Fire Blast) For super effective damage. Fire / Flying is surprisingly good defensive typing especially under the sun. Obviously, the Stealth Rock weakness is an issue, but with the viability of defog right now it really hasn't caused me many issues at all. I also find the current meta to be painfully hard to set up in and find alot of pokemon which are huge offensive threats as set up sweepers to be easily revenge by powerful and common priority such as Extreme speed from Bandnite and flying stabs from Talonflame.
My advice: Try Building around Zard-Y before outright saying X is better. I admit on paper, X looks stronger but I reality I find Y rips through more teams easier.
My advice: Try Building around Zard-Y before outright saying X is better. I admit on paper, X looks stronger but I reality I find Y rips through more teams easier.
Fire/Flying is awful ? Come on man, you can't be serious. Fire/Flying defensively is really good actually (ignore SR) as it gives only 2 weaknesses (water doesn't count as sun make it neutral), 6 resistances and immunity. Charizard Y bulk is decent as well. No offense, but you are mistaken here.
Reliant on weather ? Yep, indeed it is (but it doesn't mean you become unviable, look at Excadrill or Kabutops as they also need desperately need weather to sweep and no one will call them bad Pokemon just because of this), but as I said he indeed struggles against Hippowdon (although there is an option of running 32 EVs with Overheat to KO Hippowdon anyway, so this is easy to fix, so he needs to think twice before switching in), while Max HP Tyranitar dies in one hit from +2 Earthquake with SR up (bulkiest there is). So no, Tyranitar straight up dies unless he's scarfed (and honestly late game, where you should use this set, you should already know what kind of set Tyranitar uses) and Hippowdon goes down as well if you use Overheat. Check up my calcs. Earthquake has EXACTLY as much power as needed. And you'll use your STAB moves in 90% of cases anyway, so this advantage is not as huge as you make it. The advantage which Charizard X has over Charizard Y... doesn't really matter, because you KO targets anyway even with moves with less damage. Weaker Earthquake ? Doesn't matter, it KOes what it needs to KO anyway. ThunderPunch ? Sure, it's stronger, but when you deal 50% of damage with Flare Blitz to... Max HP/Max Def Positive Nature Slowbro, than you don't desperately need ThunderPunch (technically only for Gyarados).
Exactly - you need to get it into +2. You realize how hard this may be taking into account Rock, Earth, Dragon (I missed something ?) all types with really strong attacks (EARTHQUAKE, STONE EDGE, DRACO METEOR, OUTRAGE). Heck, you have one more weakness than Charizard Y and no immunity like Y version. I hardly call this much better typing (I would say they are similar in resistances). For a sweeper I would say even slightly worse. But ok, let's say you get into +2 somehow and you go with Dragon Claw. Some damage calcs:
Max HP/Max Def Hippowdon (which you said you easily counter with Charizard X while going Dragon Claw) vs +2 Dragon Claw Charizard X
40.24%-47.38%
This damage is just pathetic, let's face it. BTW in case of Outrage if you run it at +2.
60.00%-70.71%
Yeah, better, but this isn't even close to KO. BTW in case of Hippowdon vs Charizard X this will never happen anyway - at +1 he will phaze you out or just 2HKO with Earthquake, as at +2 he takes this hit anyway. So both versions loose to Hippowdon. No corrected, Charizard Y may actually win with Overheat and going mixed (32 EVs are enough to KO full HP Physical Hippowdon). BTW with Outrage you also loose, but at least you hit for good damage (also at +1 it tickles Hippowdon and at +2 he still takes it with solid comfort). BTW look again at that difference in power between Outrage and Dragon Claw. It's 20-27% difference depending on your damage roll. It's MASSIVE difference.
Standard OU Defensive Wall Cresselia vs +2 Dragon Claw
37.47% - 44.24%
Do I need to say how sad this looks ? Now +2 Outrage
56.21% - 66.37% (After Reflect 37.47% - 44.24%)
Hardly impressive if you ask me. BTW is it possible for Cresselia (like 50% chance) to survive second hit after Reflect (after your first attack, btw this will never happen against decent player Dragon Dance, as she will just Reflect at +1 and easily outstall you with Toxic + Moonlight combo). But best part is that she can still win when ur at +2 with Dragon Dance after Reflect. BTW it's NOT possible in case of Charizard Y, because at +2 he deals with Sun Boosted Flare Blitz...
67.27%-79.46%
Reflect won't help. At all.
BTW it's funny that you mention Fire Punch, because... thanks to Sun Fire Punch from Charizard Y is stronger as well. Actually running both Flare Blitz and Fire Punch is viable option if you want to finish some targets without recoil and even resists take really heavy hits which my earlier calcs prove.
I'll repeat again - both versions of Charizard Y are viable, but IMO Charizard Y is still better at this as long as sun is up, because your strongest STAB attack is stronger than Charizard X strongest one (and you don't desperately need secondary STAB in case of Charizard Y, calcs again). And even your best counter, Hippowdon, can be beaten with Overheat. But I admit that Charizard X is less reliant on weather, it's easier to support (x2 SR weakness is less crippling) and having second STAB can be handy (but ONLY with Outrage, which calcs prove, as Dragon Claw without Life Orb is really weak, for example allowing you to have a shot at beating something like Swampert or Snorlax if you don't run Brick Break, etc. There are some specific targets which Outrage allow you to break). Try to think outside of the box and check math again - with Sun up Charizard Y is 100% viable pick and fortunately he provides it himself.
And even if ladder ends up in a way that Charizard X is indeed better at being physical (for example lots of Swamperts adn Snorlaxes around, I doubt this will happen, but this is just an example), it doesn't mean Charizard Y is bad SD/DD user. Why ? Because:
a) Surprise factor is huge and it may catch many opponents off-guard. Physical sets are more then viable and you may go mixed as well.
b) Damage with Sun is good, if not great even against the bulkiest of walls. Squishy targets melt.
c) They have different typings. This alone makes them a bit diffent. But I still say that free Choice Band on Flare Blitz from Sun gives Charizard Y an edge here IMO.
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i really shouldn't post at midnight. i normally double check things... the one time i don't i get shown up eh?
Defensively your right i derped out there for a mo. Fire/Dragon is still better offensively though.......until i look at that math.
still i see one more problem with ZardY which i'm sure you will answer. 4MSS. With ZardX your set is pretty much locked. DD/Outrage/Flare Blitz/EQ.
This theoretical nuke of a ZardY wants something to boost its speed (Unless Sticky Web is up) in Flame Charge or DD. It wants Flare Blitz, and Fire Blast to maximize its wall breaking potential. It wants Focus Blast. It wants Overheat for Hippo. It wants Solarbeam and EQ and others. i'm not nitpicking i never said ZardY wasn't Viable (I was more so defending X than bashing Y.) But what is the theoretical set.
its funny the way i see it, ZardY requires more outside help, than X. it wants stick web bad so it can go all out attacker, it wants Tyranitar and Hippo and Toed gone if possible (Ttar and Toed aren't necessary but even when they die, their sacrifice stops a sweep as You have probably take Flare Blitz damage. if rocks are up and you had initially switched in on them, which is quite possible as you will have a spinner over a Defogger to keep sticky web. then you can stay in and punch holes or switch out as fodder. ) and the fact it needs this help is ironic as weather setters are meant to be support pokes (ZardY is just special and a bit selfish with his weather huh?) but ZardX can set up himself but isn't as immediately threatening. in exchange you don't have to build your team around it.
Defensively your right i derped out there for a mo. Fire/Dragon is still better offensively though.......until i look at that math.
still i see one more problem with ZardY which i'm sure you will answer. 4MSS. With ZardX your set is pretty much locked. DD/Outrage/Flare Blitz/EQ.
This theoretical nuke of a ZardY wants something to boost its speed (Unless Sticky Web is up) in Flame Charge or DD. It wants Flare Blitz, and Fire Blast to maximize its wall breaking potential. It wants Focus Blast. It wants Overheat for Hippo. It wants Solarbeam and EQ and others. i'm not nitpicking i never said ZardY wasn't Viable (I was more so defending X than bashing Y.) But what is the theoretical set.
its funny the way i see it, ZardY requires more outside help, than X. it wants stick web bad so it can go all out attacker, it wants Tyranitar and Hippo and Toed gone if possible (Ttar and Toed aren't necessary but even when they die, their sacrifice stops a sweep as You have probably take Flare Blitz damage. if rocks are up and you had initially switched in on them, which is quite possible as you will have a spinner over a Defogger to keep sticky web. then you can stay in and punch holes or switch out as fodder. ) and the fact it needs this help is ironic as weather setters are meant to be support pokes (ZardY is just special and a bit selfish with his weather huh?) but ZardX can set up himself but isn't as immediately threatening. in exchange you don't have to build your team around it.
I tried both on showdown against several teams.
Y wrecked shit immediately and was more reliable while X took too long to get up to +2 sometimes. Plus I found it easier to build a team around a concept of prankster Tailwinding A Mega Zard Y and Weakness policy Dragonite with proper support rather than trying to mash a team together with X. And the Y one was more successful.
Tl;dr
First Hand Experience > Stats on paper
Nah.
The real question is why you're even trying to get to +2 in the first place. Charizard-X only needs one boost to be remotely threatening thanks to Tough Claws and the power of its STABs. Bad plays don't make great experiences.
+1 from DD didn't get the job done for me at least a lot. I also saw +2 for 2HKOs and OHKOs flying around so I thought +2 would be better.
I could also just be terribad at everything though :P
My Char X at +1 is all I need. He can OHKO a lot and 2HKO most others, as well as outspeed most things.
What I don't like about Y is that with the weather nerf and no heat rock, he is too easily countered and too short. People will wisen up to him a bit. When Char Y comes out, run a Poli or Tyrant. Solarbeam becomes a weakness rather than a strength and it gets himself killed sometimes (but then again, you can predict if they'll switch into that. But it still makes it harder for him to use it in those situations)
Y sounds better on paper - And because of that, he'll be fine - until people wisen up to his game a little more. His game is more hurt by SR's than X is, his game is hurt by other weathers, and his type and low def insure he's dead to pretty much anything that can use a rock move. Also, he is -still- weak to Water - If he loses drought for whatever reason or it runs out, it will hurt him a lot. His typing isn't better than Char X, his ability is. Drought =//= typing, and when drought gets countered, he's back to his weakness.
And Char Y can only be better in physical sets with Fire moves. Unfortunately, Char Y can't reliably use earthquake, thunder punch or outrage/dragon claw in mixed sets, which believe it or not, screw him over as physical runner. You can't rely on simply 1 way of dealing physical damage. Don't underestimate how much this actually damages his physical game.
My favorite Y is the special sweeper because he has variety there. Sure he can Flare Blitz the hell out of opponents, but half the time they're resistant to it. X is a better mixed than Y because of variety and his stats being set in stone to apply to all his physical and special moves, not just Fire. (And don't forget Dragon Rush. That's also an option, has 100 BP, has high flinch rate and gets boosted by TC). Not trying to bash Y, because I do like him - But the fact that he needs more support, is a more limited mixer, can be more easily countered and has a worse type (he does, Drought is a tool not a type) means X can be more useful in a number of teams, instead of just ones focused entirely around him.
And really, considering Char X needs less support than Y, if you really wanna throw in support for him - Throw in Ninetails! Get drought up and see how amazingly powerful X's Flare Blitz is while -also- under Drought. X can get Drought with support, but Y can't ever get tough claws. And both of them can get Tailwind set ups/support as well.
What I don't like about Y is that with the weather nerf and no heat rock, he is too easily countered and too short. People will wisen up to him a bit. When Char Y comes out, run a Poli or Tyrant. Solarbeam becomes a weakness rather than a strength and it gets himself killed sometimes (but then again, you can predict if they'll switch into that. But it still makes it harder for him to use it in those situations)
Y sounds better on paper - And because of that, he'll be fine - until people wisen up to his game a little more. His game is more hurt by SR's than X is, his game is hurt by other weathers, and his type and low def insure he's dead to pretty much anything that can use a rock move. Also, he is -still- weak to Water - If he loses drought for whatever reason or it runs out, it will hurt him a lot. His typing isn't better than Char X, his ability is. Drought =//= typing, and when drought gets countered, he's back to his weakness.
And Char Y can only be better in physical sets with Fire moves. Unfortunately, Char Y can't reliably use earthquake, thunder punch or outrage/dragon claw in mixed sets, which believe it or not, screw him over as physical runner. You can't rely on simply 1 way of dealing physical damage. Don't underestimate how much this actually damages his physical game.
My favorite Y is the special sweeper because he has variety there. Sure he can Flare Blitz the hell out of opponents, but half the time they're resistant to it. X is a better mixed than Y because of variety and his stats being set in stone to apply to all his physical and special moves, not just Fire. (And don't forget Dragon Rush. That's also an option, has 100 BP, has high flinch rate and gets boosted by TC). Not trying to bash Y, because I do like him - But the fact that he needs more support, is a more limited mixer, can be more easily countered and has a worse type (he does, Drought is a tool not a type) means X can be more useful in a number of teams, instead of just ones focused entirely around him.
And really, considering Char X needs less support than Y, if you really wanna throw in support for him - Throw in Ninetails! Get drought up and see how amazingly powerful X's Flare Blitz is while -also- under Drought. X can get Drought with support, but Y can't ever get tough claws. And both of them can get Tailwind set ups/support as well.
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Weren't those calcs assuming Sun was up rather than Sand? So he should still be able to switch in just fine, he just couldn't stay in on the reverse. I may have misread it, but that's how they looked.
These are the calcs I'm getting on Showdown:
0 SpA (custom) Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon in sun: 442-522 (105.23 - 124.28%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA (custom) Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon in sand: 295-348 (70.23 - 82.85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA (custom) Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon in sand: 346-408 (82.38 - 97.14%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
For the Charizard, I just used custom, said Fire type with 159 base special attack, nature of Naive. So basically, he can revenge kill Hippo, but it doesn't look like he can kill it if it switches in. Unless Hippodown has started running its hidden ability instead of Sand Stream?
So... I'm confused by this. Lets look over them (Green is defensive, red is offensive):
Yzard:
Immune: Ground
Resistant: Bug, Grass, Fire, Steel, Fighting, Fairy
Weak:
STAB immunities: None
SE: Grass, Bug, Steel, Ice, Fighting
Neutral: 14 Types
Xzard:
Immune: None
Resistant: Bug, Grass, Fire, Steel, Electric
Weak: Rock, Ground, Dragon
STAB immunities: Fairy
SE: Grass, Steel, Bug, Ice, Dragon
Neutral: 18 Types
Yzard has resistance to fairy and fighting moves which is huge, while Xzard only has electric resistance. If you count water as a weakness on Yzard, then they have the same amount of weaknesses, if you don't count it (Which you shouldn't because not many Yzards are going to stay in if Drought goes away especially since the main other weather users hurt it badly) then he only has 2 weaknesses. Xzard's secondary stab is ineffective against fairy types, providing free switch ins occasionally (Especially if locked into Outrage). Additionally, Xzard has no immunities to any types, while Yzard has ground immunity. This gives it a distinct advantage when mega evolving because if the opponent's predictions are off it could lead to a free turn for Yzard, but not for Xzard. It also gives Yzard a distinct advantage on teams allowing for occasional free switch ins with good prediction.
Yzard has these advantages in relation to typing:
More resistances
Better resistances
Important immunity
No ineffective STAB
And these disadvantages:
4x weakness to Rock
Slightly less neutral coverage on STAB
...
Pretty sure that's it actually.
I don't know where you are coming from when you say that Xzard has better typing. Both of them are crippled by SR enough to where they need it removed before they go in. Both of them have dangerous weaknesses in Rock and Dragon/Earthquake. Yzard might have to watch out for being hit with an 80% accuracy Stone Miss or Head Smash, but Xzard has to watch out for 100% accuracy Earthquake and Dragon Pulse, and 90% accuracy Draco Meteor. Both of them and all pokemon have their respective counters, so saying that Yzard is scared when a TTar or Politoed jumps in is the same as saying that Xzard is scared when a bulky fairy comes in (
Bottom line is that Yzard has better defensive typing
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To be honest, I think that people will laugh at ZardY with the typical "Stealth Rock DERP" response, up until someone blasts there face off with it in the Sim or online. Someone on these boards uses the one for his top 10 OU team, so what the hell does that tell you?
Anyways, both are very good, but I'd rather work around just Stealth Rock for ZardY. As opposed to dragons nuking you, Fairies screwing you when you Outrage lock, and Earthquake being a very popular move. ZardX looks like the old MidMence, only without Draco Meteor and much more predictable. You can only run one item with either of these forms.
Anyways, both are very good, but I'd rather work around just Stealth Rock for ZardY. As opposed to dragons nuking you, Fairies screwing you when you Outrage lock, and Earthquake being a very popular move. ZardX looks like the old MidMence, only without Draco Meteor and much more predictable. You can only run one item with either of these forms.
Actually, unless what I've been reading is wrong, what happens is that the Outrage will be negated, and then they are free to use any other move. It won't lock them into Outrage, because it doesn't affect them. It's like if you tried to Thrash a Ghost Type. This is why sometimes it's better to have a Dragon resist than an immunity, because if you resist Outrage they're still locked into it, but if you're Fairy then you stopped their Outrage and they're free to switch.
Ah, well still, free switch in is free.
I haven't tried out Zard yet, but this what I plan on doing.
Charizard @ Charizardite-Y
Ability: Drought
Nature: Modest
EVs: 252 SAtk/108 Spe/148 HP
- Tailwind
- Fire Blast
- SolarBeam
- Dragon Pulse/Focus Blast
The speed EVs ensure Zard outruns everything upto Scarf Latios after a Tailwind. Then he can use his 458 SpAtk, sun-boosted STAB Fire Blasts to destroy everything. In the last slot, idk - DPulse is good for other dragons, but Focus Blast hits Heatran.
Any suggestions?
Charizard @ Charizardite-Y
Ability: Drought
Nature: Modest
EVs: 252 SAtk/108 Spe/148 HP
- Tailwind
- Fire Blast
- SolarBeam
- Dragon Pulse/Focus Blast
The speed EVs ensure Zard outruns everything upto Scarf Latios after a Tailwind. Then he can use his 458 SpAtk, sun-boosted STAB Fire Blasts to destroy everything. In the last slot, idk - DPulse is good for other dragons, but Focus Blast hits Heatran.
Any suggestions?
So I've been playing both and my experiences can summed up as such:
CharX : is a FANTASTIC physical sweeper, can go mixed...... provided walls are down. If someone takes care of Hippowdon and physical bulky waters like Gastrodon Char X is unstoppable. As a late game sweeper/cleaner and even as, sometimes, a mixed wall breaker, able to fire blast many threats away (Which I sometimes prefer even over Flare Blitz). However, any kind of defensive pokemon can put a stop to him quickly. tl;dr his momentum is fierce but frail.
CharY: is more of a switch in nuke option, provided the lack of SR. I haven't tried mixed because I don't like staying in with him and not taking advantage of the sun. Losing a turn to set up, and possibly the weather entirely depending on the switch, is too much to lose just for the sake of saying "GOTCHA! He's mixed".
Both require support, but are not a heavy burden to build around either, making them worth the team investment.
CharX : is a FANTASTIC physical sweeper, can go mixed...... provided walls are down. If someone takes care of Hippowdon and physical bulky waters like Gastrodon Char X is unstoppable. As a late game sweeper/cleaner and even as, sometimes, a mixed wall breaker, able to fire blast many threats away (Which I sometimes prefer even over Flare Blitz). However, any kind of defensive pokemon can put a stop to him quickly. tl;dr his momentum is fierce but frail.
CharY: is more of a switch in nuke option, provided the lack of SR. I haven't tried mixed because I don't like staying in with him and not taking advantage of the sun. Losing a turn to set up, and possibly the weather entirely depending on the switch, is too much to lose just for the sake of saying "GOTCHA! He's mixed".
Both require support, but are not a heavy burden to build around either, making them worth the team investment.
No, to be honest, Dragon + Fire STABS is not easily stopped by defensive mons as it hits most for SE or neutral damage, which will kill more often than not. It's easier dealt with by revenging, to be honest it's not even frail.
Support isn't hard, just defog.
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