I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say that Lapras would be UU, just that he will be a viable counter to the dragons and weather teams that everybody except to see there.
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Other 6th Gen Pokemon UU Candidate Speculation Thread
- Thread starter Ashfield
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Pangoro doesn't have right now the tools to be UU and like you, i don't think that even with pokebank is going to be able of doing something in UU... The only thing that i'm not with you is telling that it does have a weakness against ground! The only weaknesses of Pangoro are Fighting, Flying and a 4x against Fairies...
In lower tiers it can work as a kind of parashuffler maybe using a Bulky spread with assault vest hitting with Circle Throw and Body Slam, beating Ghosts with STAB Crunch and Fairies with Poison Jab...
Lapras on the other side can be useful in UU only as a niche pokémon to get the advantages of Politoed's rain and beating those Gastrodon that usually gives troubles to Rain Teams... And by the way... Using a Physical Lapras without DD is just underwhelming and Ice Shard without investment is almost as using Donphan Ice Shard which isn't exactly a HUGE thing...
So... Both of them should be outside of UU absurdly strong fights...
I think Pangoro might be able to find some niche in UU if only because of Parting Shot alone. Parting Shot is a stupidly good move that can grab you loads of momentum, weakening the foes offensive stats while switching is pretty good to be able to get some teammate to set up and sweep, which is pretty good. Fighting / Dark is still usable coverage and Poison Jab is okay to hit Fairies, and it hits decently hard overall. It won't be anything amazing, but I think Pangoro might have some niche in UU simply for Parting Shot and its decent power.
Outclassed? Hardly. Jellicent and Suicine have different roles. Suicine can phase teams around, sweep effectively with Calm Mind, and has better overall bulk. Jellicent is decent at spin-blocking, but with knock off being buffed, rapid spin being used less and less due to defog, I can't see Jellicent being that great in UU. And the usage in OU won't allow it to drop.
I saw somebody talking about how Swarm Escavalier is superior to Overcoat Escavalier. The slow speed puts you in a tight corner since you need to get down to a low health for Swarm to activate. Swarm can work on certain pokes like Focus Sash Scolipede (before it had speed boost), EndureReversal Heracross is good to fire off those powerful Megahorns. But, if you have an immunity to all spore moves, you have an essential status absorber and counter to most grass types *cough* Roserade *cough*. If you are planning on running an Assault Vest on Escavalier (which I already bred my shiny adamant Escavalier :-) )then he turns into a great tank with little to fear, except for fire.
Fire Bad...
As for Jellicent in UU, I wouldn't mind that at all. It got a nice buff to WoW, but that Knock Off does hurt. At first, it looked more of a liability with weaknesses to Ghost, Dark, Grass and Electric, but Recover coupled with that great HP makes it hard to break down.
Fire Bad...
As for Jellicent in UU, I wouldn't mind that at all. It got a nice buff to WoW, but that Knock Off does hurt. At first, it looked more of a liability with weaknesses to Ghost, Dark, Grass and Electric, but Recover coupled with that great HP makes it hard to break down.
Sharpedo got a new tool in destiny bond this gen. Coupled with speed boost, destiny bond could end up being a free kill on a would be counter. It could essentially kill off anything that doesn't have priority. Let's say that a Mega mannectric comes in hoping to revenge kill your sharpedo. It lowers your attack and you are fairly sure it will try to volt switch on you assuming you will either lose sharpedo or he will gain momentum. You go for destiny bond and mannectric is now gone and neither side has the switch advantage. That was just one possible situation too. This could potentially take out any non priority revenge killer. The addition of this niche move and the loss of a steel resist to one of its two stabs could help propel sharpedo to the top of UU.
The only problem with this is that Sharpedo has to drop one of its coverage moves in order to accommodate DB. Waterfall/Crunch/Protect are mandatory. You just need to watch out for bulky fighting types like Toxicroak (which could drop due to rain nerf), Hera (who is surprisingly bulky), Cobalion, etc.
Good point. I guess I'm just really liking the idea of pseudo priority destiny bond.
Entei w/cband/leftovers/assault vest
Adamant 252atk/252spe/4def
Sacred fire
Stone edge
Espeed
Ironhead/sub
Sub Entei is only with leftys but it would be just as bad as sub ho-oh is in ubers. Choice band does heavy damage while assvest gives better bulk. Bulldoze and flame charge are the only other viable attacks entei gets tho. Nothing other than resttalkers will appreciate a burn and firetypes won't enjoy stone edge. Iron head is for the fairies/rocks.
Any counters that might trouble this set?
Adamant 252atk/252spe/4def
Sacred fire
Stone edge
Espeed
Ironhead/sub
Sub Entei is only with leftys but it would be just as bad as sub ho-oh is in ubers. Choice band does heavy damage while assvest gives better bulk. Bulldoze and flame charge are the only other viable attacks entei gets tho. Nothing other than resttalkers will appreciate a burn and firetypes won't enjoy stone edge. Iron head is for the fairies/rocks.
Any counters that might trouble this set?
Rhyperior can handle Entei quite nicely. Even with Iron Head and Choice Band, it's almost 3HKO on 252/0 neutral nature Rhyperior.
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 157-186 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Rhyperior can OHKO with Earthquake, too.
Intimidate Qwilfish is a great counter, too. A -1 Choice Band +252 Attack Entei 3HKO with Stone Edge:
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Intimidate Qwilfish: 142-168 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Other than that, Flash Fire Pokes stand out as good checks, if Entei is locked into Sacred Fire/Iron Head.
And then, there's everybody's favorite bro; Slowbro
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 111-131 (28.1 - 33.2%) -- 91.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Entei faces a lot of competition from other Physical Fire types; Victini, Darmanitan and Arcanine.
1. Victini's ability to go mixed allows it to devastate all 3 walls above. Although it has that Psychic typing, it has a solid movepool and great stats.
2. Darm's insane Attack Stat coupled with the Sheer Force boosted Flare Blitz goes great with it's access to Superpower, Earthquake and U-turn.
3. Arcanine can't beat Entei in raw power, but it's ability to absorb fire attacks and access to recovery in Morning Sun gives it longevity which the other fire types can't boast.
Will Entei make a splash in UU? Probably nothing too extreme, but that Sacred Fire gives it a very special niche.
How so? Entei has base 115 Attack and base 100 Speed compared to Arcanine's 110 and 95. Plus, Entei has an arguably superior Fire STAB.
It isnt arguably better, sacred fire is better than flare blitz. What he was trying to say is that arcainine currently has two abilities that allow it to take hits better in flash fire and intimidate.
Unless you know...it gets burned. cause that would fuck Rhyperior over. i agree with the rest though. but i think Sacred Fire is good enough Entei may make OU, it definitely makes it the go to physical Fire type if it was UU just because Sacred Fire is THAT good. just look at how good its other user is in Ubers as a reference.
What you have to think about when talking about Entei isn't what resists Sacred Fire and can't be 2/3HKO'd by it- you have to think about what can switch in and is okay with being burned, because most of these resists won't enjoy the burn. Nilotic gets a special mention as it can take anything Entei can dish out and enjoys the burn, so we have an enter counter right there.
Cough Cough... Heatran is the best counter to that set, since it doesn't run Bulldoze... Also, if Manaphy ends in UU i think that it can also be a nice check...
How fortunate, then, that this is the UU speculation tread, and Heatran is unlikely to drop to UU anytime soon.
Edit: Ninjas...
But why should Entei run Bulldoze in UU? The only reason to run it in OU is Heatran, and it isn't even a guaranteed OHKO with Choice Band. Bulldoze is so weak that the only thing I can think of that it hits harder than its other moves in UU is Aggron (regular, not Mega), which is never OHKO'd and only requires one more hit to take out with Sacred Fire (and regular Aggron was never a common sight in UU last gen, to boot).
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I can see politoed dropping like a brick, maybe even past UU. Five turns of weather just isn't that much, and unlike ninetales, politoed doesn't really have any big ways to take advantage of the weather it brings. Though ninetales might drop to UU as well.
Masquerain might be UU if galvantula is OU. It has just the right ability to set up sticky web, and can also baton pass quiver dances with the right team support.
Mammoswine and Cloyster are both Pokemon that just cannot survive in metagames where every team has talonflame, megamaw and megacario.
Ampharos might go UU thanks to the mega form and stat buff. Makes for one hell of a pivot.
With ghosts now immune to trapping abilities, dugtrio might drop to UU. It's another Pokemon that I suspect can't keep up with newer threats.
Masquerain might be UU if galvantula is OU. It has just the right ability to set up sticky web, and can also baton pass quiver dances with the right team support.
Mammoswine and Cloyster are both Pokemon that just cannot survive in metagames where every team has talonflame, megamaw and megacario.
Ampharos might go UU thanks to the mega form and stat buff. Makes for one hell of a pivot.
With ghosts now immune to trapping abilities, dugtrio might drop to UU. It's another Pokemon that I suspect can't keep up with newer threats.
Choice Specs Rain Boosted Hydro Pump isn't a Big Way to take advantage of the weather it brings? :p also Swift Swim Kingdra was more than even OU can handle in Gen V... and even if just five turns are a little bit short, they can be enough to make a battle easily 6 Vs 4 in a blink.
Then i really doubt that Masquerain could be UU... probably is going to be like Ferroseed, a RU pokémon that have some niches in UU since unlike Galvantula, Masquerain is Pretty slow and even with Intimidate and full investment, 70-62-80 Defenses aren't a big thing with that poor defensive type.
Mamoswine and Cloyster run Focus Sash A LOT and with that, they normally can handle those threats... of course, Mamoswine couldn't do anything else besides setting Rocks and Cloyster can't Shell Smash as easily but as many pokémons they just need the right support to be a huge force as always...
Ampharos and Dugtrio are the choices in which i agree with you, even if Ampharos maybe can be seen lower and Dugtrio could have the niche of beating Heatran and Tyranitar as always... Also with a Sash and a rock move it should be strong enough to handle Megawile Megaluke and Talonflame...
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I think Noivern will be UU because its power is so underwhelming and its speed isn't enough to not get revenge killed by Choice Scarfers. It's kinda weird, being that it's less powerful than most Specs/CB pokes but it's faster than almost all Specs/CB users but its not nearly as fast as Choice Scarfers bit it is more powerful than most Choice Scarfers. It's kinda like a weird middleground that doesn't make it particularly great at anything. Another thing that I think will happen is that I think Azumarill will be OU with its new typing and Diggersby will be UU because, although Diggersby does bring some other things to the table such as more speed(which is mot enough speed) and power, I think Azumarill's superior bulk and typing surpasses that of Diggersby, considering the particular role they both play on a team.
The advantage of Diggersby is those immunities against two common attacking types (Ghost and Electric) and also have enough base speed to outspeed most walls without a lot of investment...also Noivern is probably going to be RU since Salamence, Kingdra, Flygon and Haxorus (if they are UU as the usage indicates) are more effective as Dragon Types...
No. Just no.
Just because Drizzle got nerfed doesn't mean it's not still amazing, especially with Specs/LO Kingdra outspeeding base 110 Scarfers without Timid nature or even max speed investement (you only need 228 EVs if I'm not mistaken) and wrecking everything with Hydro Pump, or Draco Meteor if you're facing a water resist (nothing resists the combo in UU besides Empoleon and Ferroseed which can both be dealt with with a strong Fighting-type, unless Azumarill doesn't rise to OU which he obviously will).
Even if Aldaron's proposal stayed active, instant rain cannot be underestimated, and will probably cause all the powerful Fire-types in UU to drop in usage. Incidentally, the large number of Fire-types in UU is the reason Ninetales will never be UU either.
If Politoed dropped, it would end up in BL in a heartbeat.
If Politoed dropped we'd probably see something like Aldaron's proposal for UU. Politoed is definitely not too good for UU. Drizzle isn't broken except for maybe Swift Swim.
Politoed does have a very strong Hydro Pump though, along with team support.
You talk of Politoed as if it were OU by being an incredible Pokemon. Well, sir, I hate to break it to ya but all it has is a good ability now that the only reason it was ever so good in OU is downgraded to do the same thing as the setup move rain dance. There is no chance Politoed will stay in OU.
Ah, but you imply that rain is bad. Quite contrary. Many teams are unprepared for it, particularly the Swift Swim abusers, and they often use Rotom-Wash as their only water resistance, and many Swift Swimmers have alternate STABs to destroy it, too [Ludicolo stands out among them]
Furthermore, it's not the same. Politoed only has to switch in to put the rain up, and not waste a turn or moveslot to do so. That's still pretty big.
Politoed may not be OU this gen, but not because it's bad, simply because people do not use it or understand the destructive potential of rain - including you, it seems. I don't even run rain and yet I've seen it easily wreck teams.
tl;dr rain does not suck it's just nerfed and it's not so easy to mindlessly spam hydro pumps anymore
Furthermore, it's not the same. Politoed only has to switch in to put the rain up, and not waste a turn or moveslot to do so. That's still pretty big.
Politoed may not be OU this gen, but not because it's bad, simply because people do not use it or understand the destructive potential of rain - including you, it seems. I don't even run rain and yet I've seen it easily wreck teams.
tl;dr rain does not suck it's just nerfed and it's not so easy to mindlessly spam hydro pumps anymore
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