D/P tiers. (READ 1st and 2nd POST)

[Familiar Trainer]

Isn't Mew in uber for an entirely different reason though? From what I've seen in using Manaphy personally, fighting against manaphy and reading about his use (I think there's a warstory with him in the archive)he's not that much of a threat.

He's incredibly predictable and easily taken down. Most pokemon ,especially Gengar, with a super effective attack can take him out. Also, Manapy requires that he be switched in meaning the majority of the time you won't be facing a manaphy at full health.

Battles usually go something like this,

*rain dance*

Manaphy switched in, X pokemon uses X attack depleting 1/4 of his HP.

Manaphy uses tail glow, X pokemon switches out.

X pokemon is faster uses SE hit, manaphy faints. Occaisonally X pokemon is slower and is hit with NVE or nuetral damage and then manaphy faints.

No one likes to switch out because tail glow is wasted and it defeats the purpose of using him in the first place.


Even if uber manaphy did carry grass knot that's why I mentioned Palkia. I just can't see Manaphy as uber.

I mentioned Mew not because it's similiar to Manaphy, but because it's simply not used at all in the Uber metagame. That doesn't mean it belongs in OU, though. Same with Manaphy; just because it cannot contend with the likes of Kyogre and Palkia does not mean it should be sent to OU.


Damage: 230 - 270
Damage: 67.45% - 79.18%

Assuming I calculated this correctly, that's what a max special attack (positive nature) Gengar will do to a min/min Manaphy with Thunderbolt. Since most Gengars go for +Speed and not +Special Attack, it's not going to be a kill even after Manaphy lost 25% of it's health. And while I haven't calculated it, I'd assume +2 Manaphy's STABed Surf in the Rain would OHKO Gengar.

Manaphy's defenses are not to be overlooked; it can take a beating, especially with it's mono Water typing.

 

[Synecdoche]

I find Rhyperior to be the only true reliable counter!

My apologies Viralkite, but... 252HP adamant Rhyperior takes 102% damage minimum from CB-Meteor Mash... So... yeah... So much for countering Metagross IMO.

 

[Mekkah]

Man, am I ever sick of "Tyranitar is not uber it has Fighting weak". Try looking further than your nose is long, Fighting is easy to avoid. Sunny Day or Rain Dance or whatever isn't a counter to Tyranitar either. It just negates Sand Stream but completely ignores that the Pokemon himself carries over 400 Attack and Stone Edge and Dragon Dance and Taunt.

On a related note, how the hell is switching in Tyranitar/Hippowdon/LOLABOMASNOW on Manaphy a good idea for countering it? Again, you just negate Rain Dance but you forget that it can also hurt a lot of crap with nearly 500 Special Attack and Tail Glow. Not to mention Manaphy doesn't even need Rain Dance itself - put it on Bronzong, put it on Kingdra, put it on whatever with a Wet Rock. Switch to Manaphy, 6 turns of free Full Restores left while Manaphy has only spent a moveslot on Rest. Add in Surf, Tail Glow, Ice Beam/HP Electric/Energy Ball and you are going to be in a world of pain.

Manaphy manages to threaten everything except Calm Mind/Electric move Blissey, Ludicolo and perhaps very maybe Lanturn with a great amount of 6-7 moves or so. Some Pokemon are thought dangerous because they have a big movepool and the stats to use them, and the only thing that can stop them is predicting the right set. Imagine your horror when Manaphy's core set steps over everything standard except one Pokemon, and that one Pokemon has to carry specific moves...

 

[rbygsc kid 251]

I agree with the original list with one exception.....

Breloom. He's really that good to where he is overused. Butterfree can pull off the same exact thing except his accuracy is down by 2.5%. I suppose that Breloom though can pull off some other impressive stuff, such as subPunching and Leech Seed.

It just surprised me, that's all.

As for everything else... Not too bad.

 

[GreenPikachu]

I agree with the original list with one exception.....

Breloom. He's really that good to where he is overused. Butterfree can pull off the same exact thing except his accuracy is down by 2.5%. I suppose that Breloom though can pull off some other impressive stuff, such as subPunching and Leech Seed.

It just surprised me, that's all.

As for everything else... Not too bad.

i think you're letting your rby bias cloud your mind here. could you explain how butterfree "can pull off the same exact thing" as breloom?

 

[Firestorm]

A 4x weakness is not a reason to keep something OU. Rayquaza is 4x weak to one of the most common moves in the game: Ice Beam. Is he in OU? I don't think so. There is a reason for that.

I'm dead-set against Hipno's tier idea, but a lot of that has to do with me being biased and wanting to use Dragonite, who isn't even OU (will likely turn out BL). I'm not too sure what banning all the 580+ will do for the game, all I can see it doing is creating different standard Pokemon. Could be worth trying out in a tournament on Competitor or something.

Manaphy... Well, I'm pretty sure the ones in charge have argued a billion times over Manaphy. I personally haven't had trouble with Manaphy on WiFi. It needs to either give up type coverage or recovery (Grass Knot or Ice Beam for Rest) or more if it wants to use rain by itself.

Tyrannitar and the Sandstream boost was just a retarded move on Game Freak's part. It's hard to keep him in Standard, really. Ubers seems pretty weather-based so at least he won't be useless there. He's just a monster in standard. Most of the Close Combat/Brick Break users aren't going to come in on him easily =/

Depending on how Mew performed in that Practice Advance Tour, would it have a chance at going down to OU? I don't know what it gained in the switch from Adv to DP.

The event Pokemon are hard to classify imo because they're rarely seen on WiFi so it's almost all theory or Advance experience that's behind the decision.

 

[rbygsc kid 251]

i think you're letting your rby bias cloud your mind here. could you explain how butterfree "can pull off the same exact thing" as breloom?

well, i realized what i was missing as I posted. lol. I was thinking of Butterfree in terms of "doublepowder" and quickly realized that Breloom can be used for more than just spore. This is my mistake.

 

[Surgo]

Shit is put in OU because it's overused. Breloom is currently overused. Thus, Breloom is in OU.

 

[gengod]

Shit is put in OU because it's overused. Breloom is currently overused. Thus, Breloom is in OU.

Gallade is more overused than Breloom, but is currently in the BL tier

 

[General Tso]

So... am I allowed to ask why Flygon hasn't been discussed yet? I don't use him but I still think he can deserve a spot in at least BL.

 

[ViralKite]

My apologies Viralkite, but... 252HP adamant Rhyperior takes 102% damage minimum from CB-Meteor Mash... So... yeah... So much for countering Metagross IMO.

I meant TTar vs Rhyperior not Rhyperior vs. Metagross... I meant Rhyperior can safely switch into TTar due to it's typing and def.

 

[Surgo]

Gallade is more overused than Breloom, but is currently in the BL tier

I guess we have different experiences then, lol. Gallade is one of those who was put on OU at first, and then its common usage was argued against. We all agreed that Breloom was really common, though.

So... am I allowed to ask why Flygon hasn't been discussed yet? I don't use him but I still think he can deserve a spot in at least BL.

Because THIS IS NOT A COMPREHENSIVE BORDERLINE LIST. IT IS A COMPREHENSIVE UBER/OU LIST ONLY.

 

[Firestorm]

So... am I allowed to ask why Flygon hasn't been discussed yet? I don't use him but I still think he can deserve a spot in at least BL.

Probably because this is only to discuss Uber and OU first. Flygon won't be OU due to being outclassed in almost every way by Garchomp. Even Dragonite is outclassed less =( We'll probably see Flygon in BL so it's just off to the side for now.

Edit: Ok, this topic moves too fast.

 

[ViralKite]

Please define a Heracross counter..........Gliscor is the only counter for CB Hera and i guess you can List Weezing as a counter but aside from those there arent really any counters for it. Dont even list Gyarados and Salamence as Stone Edge puts them in their place......

Its harder to take on a Heracross that a Manaphy as Heracross can just be used as a Hit and Run whereas Manaphy has to TG first before it can do significant damage

In fact, I will mention Salamence. Hear me out! Most Heracross will be using Choice Band or Choice Scarf. They will either be stuck using Megahorn or Close Combat most of the time, which Salamence takes okay. Therefore Salamence does switch in MOST of the time fairly well. Hera won't be able to use the stone edge as it's locked into another move. So yeah... and if by that chance it gets to use Stone Edge you'll just have to pray and rely on the accuracy...

 

[Chill]

Actually a simple Tail Glow/Ice Beam/Surf/Grass Knot was determined to be far more threatening than any set. Manaphy has bucket loads of power under its belt it just needs the diversity to top it off.

Which would bring me back to the question of "how do you get it in with no recovery move and or damage"? You'll take some damage however small or large on the switch. While you tail glow the opponent get's to switch. Everyone and their mom has a choice scarf pokemon these days. It outspeeds Manaphy for the kill.

It wasn't a knee jerk reaction out of the blue either, theres been multiple and repeated discussions. Facts determined were that Manaphy sets up too fast, with too little effort and with massive payoff.

The counters for Manaphy with Rain Dance setup are overall just too small. Ludicolo, Raikou, CM Blissey and Kingdra. Without RD setup a good status effect will do, but it can simply pack a lum berry and still operate with great effectiveness since rarely will anything coming in will ever OHKO it.

Gengar, Jirachi... I would bet that even a choice scarf Garchomp can take out Manaphy. It doesn't need to fear ice beam as it can just switch in on the tail glow.

My point is, that TTar, with his Def. Boost, does NOT like Tail Glowed Surfs, nor does Hippowdon.
And in the case of sunny day users,
Name me one, aside from bronzong (who doesnt want to risk taking that first TG Double STAB surf) who isnt weak to Water/Ice?

That's the thing about manaphy though. If you switch in on something like Infernape are you going to use surf or are you going to use tail glow? When you use tail glow you give the opponent the chance to switch. The pokemon they switch to will more than likely KO manaphy or be able to survie your single tail glow attacks. Think of it this way is a pokemon with nasty plot unstoppable or a threat? Manaphy might be a threat if he get's in a tail glow but he is far from unstoppable.

Take this set for example, Surf, Tail Glow, Ice Beam/HP Electric/Energy Ball. If you chose Ice beam Water types are going to get you. If you chose electric, the grass types and ground/water combos get you. All of these are very popular pokemon. Roserade, Breloom, Swampert,Tangrowth. Unfortunately Manaphy can't have it both ways.

 

[Surgo]

Gengar, Jirachi... I would bet that even a choice scarf Garchomp can take out Manaphy. It doesn't need to fear ice beam as it can just switch in on the tail glow.

Gengar does not OHKO (but gets OHKOed in return). Jirachi does not even come close to OHKOing. Garchomp does not OHKO.

Use a damage calculator before making your argument.

 

[General Tso]

Probably because this is only to discuss Uber and OU first. Flygon won't be OU due to being outclassed in almost every way by Garchomp. Even Dragonite is outclassed less =( We'll probably see Flygon in BL so it's just off to the side for now.

Edit: Ok, this topic moves too fast.

Ok, but you see Dragonite in OU because he can do things the other two can't and so can Flygon right? (I'm suggesting Flygon be in OU or else this post is meaningless)

Oh and to ViralKite, barring CH and Guts, Salamence can switch into a CB Stone Edge and kill the next turn with Flamethrewer/Fire Blast, but it will be 2HKO'd by CS Hera (because it's faster)

 

[Surgo]

Ok, but you see Dragonite in OU because he can do things the other two can't and so can Flygon right? (I'm suggesting Flygon be in OU or else this post is meaningless)

Dragonite is highly used right now. Thus Dragonite is in OU.

I suspect that Dragonite is a fad that will wear off shortly, but whatever.

 

[Mekkah]

"Ground/Water combo's" being Swampert, who gets 2HKOed by Tail Glowed Surf. Don't bother bringing up Quagsire. Anyway, "Manaphy isn't uber it takes damage when it switches in and when you Tail Glow your opponent switches"...yep, I guess I can say the same for Rayquaza. Who is easier to OHKO than Manaphy, by the way...I find it hilarious you suggest Outrage Garchomp for this who is barely 2HKOing with Choice Scarf while Ice Beam easily OHKOs ESPECIALLY if you suggest to come in on Tail Glow.

Manaphy is a Pokemon with 100/100/100 defenses. You can't just OHKO that with Gengar or something.

 

[ViralKite]

Oh and to ViralKite, barring CH and Guts, Salamence can switch into a CB Stone Edge and kill the next turn with Flamethrewer/Fire Blast, but it will be 2HKO'd by CS Hera (because it's faster)

That's very interesting as I did not know it survived. But again I'm relying that they are stuck with another move due to the choice item and that the accuracy will hurt Stone Edge.

 

[gengod]

In fact I will mention Salamence. Hear me out! Most Heracross will be using Choice Band or Choice Scarf. They will either be stuck using Megahorn or Close Combat most of the time, which Salamence takes okay. Therefore Salamence does switch in MOST of the time fairly well. Hera won't be able to use the stone edge as it's locked into another move. So yeah... and if by that chance it gets to use Stone Edge you'll just have to pray and rely on the accuracy...

Salamence can come in ok on those other 2 moves and so can Gyarados and so can stuff like Crobat but i dont like my counter for a pokemon having to pray it doesnt get hit by a certain move that the pokemon im trying to counter will always have.
So its basically you have a 75% chance of countering Heracross with something like Salamene the first time you switch in but an opponent will be wary of it switching in again and will proceed to start using Stone Edge in attempts to take it out.
Thats why i wouldnt really list Salamence a counter for Hera before i list Crobat who actually takes less from CLose Combat and Megahorn

I guess we have different experiences then, lol. Gallade is one of those who was put on OU at first, and then its common usage was argued against. We all agreed that Breloom was really common, though.

Yea i guess its just a matter of who we've been battling...lol

 

[DDX]

Personally, I would like to see Salamence and (possibly) Garchomp become Uber. We all know about the power Specsmence carries, with a Draco Meteor only resisted by Steels + good physical and special movepool and DDMence variants. Garchomp is a little more predictable, but Dragons like these are definitely overcentralizing OU, IMO. I can count on one hand the amount of teams I've faced in a day that *doesn't* have a Salamence or Garchomp. I'd mention another overcentralizer, but we're not allowed to discuss it.

So far, I'd say, good move putting Manaphy in ubers. I'd definitely throw T-Tar in there, as well. If T-Tar does move up, however, I'd say we should definitely put Cresselia in Ubers, as well, seeing as T-Tar is pretty much the only Pokemon she fears. Even a Modest Gengar's STAB Shadow Ball can't really break 50% damage on that, especially if it Calm Minded on the switch. Once it gets in a Calm Mind or two, it can just RestTalk and wait for the Ice Beam/Grass Knot of death to kill you.

 

[teekay]

The only thing that's been suggested for an uber ban that really seems to make any kind of sense to me is Salamence, and I find that pretty questionable anyway. It does seem that Blissey is the only real counter it has with choice specs, but if anything that just means you'd ban specsmence to ubers, not Sala itself. Anyway choice items, as we all know, are prediction-reliant and therefore can be countered just by making the right decision. I'm not really going to presume to know where it belongs, it just seems more reasonable of a suggestion than most of what I've seen in this thread.

As for TTar, I'm curious, what is it that was going to be able to counter him without the sdef boost and can't now? I honestly don't see how it makes that much difference.

 

[Kumar]

banning particular moves or sets is dumb.

 

[Firestorm]

I was just looking at the list of fully evolved Pokemon, and is there a reason Jolteon, Vaporeon, and Slaking aren't OU anymore? Jolteon in particular is actually overused in the sense of usage. Vaporeon does its job as well as it did before. Slaking I guess is kind of set up bait.