np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice

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Guys, Baton Pass isn't broken. It does not make every relevant Pokemon with it broken. Drifblim is not broken. Ambipom is not broken. Scolipede is not broken. There tons of Pokemon with Baton Pass who are not broken in any way whatsoever.

Espeon IS broken. And while I don't think so right now, the only other 2 Pokemon I can see being broken with BP are Smeargle and Mew. Celebi can't Taunt and being weak to common Scarf U-Turns doesn't help. We ban Pokemon who are broken when used to their fullest potential. Magic Bounce + Baton Pass is Espeon's fullest potential, and it has been pretty obviously broken with it in my opinion.

I am voting to ban Espeon (assuming it gets nominated separately from Baton Pass and Shell Smash, which it should). I haven't decided on Mew yet, as I don't think it was ban-able this round, but without Espeon (Chansey is probably going to get banned, so there goes a check for special sets) to reflect its Taunt and status, it will be next round without question.
 
I've found SubScreech Flygon to be very effective agaisnt BP teams, as it outspeeds Smeargle and Ninjask usually protects first expecting Scarf/Band.. then you can give them negative boosts to pass and pick stuff off with Dragon Claw and Earthquake. Pair it up with Dragon Tail Milotic and something to lay hazards, such as Froslass, and you have a decent shuffling core that isn't completely redundant against normal teams.

I just think Baton Pass is a play style that everyone should have in mind when building a team, much like people found stuff that shut down the FWG core of late 4th gen UU. Team Preview is such a hindrance to BP teams.
 
Yes. Or at least it should. I recently tested a BP team, and like noted earlier, the amount of people with multiple Taunt, Haze, and Dragon Tail users (especially on the same set, like Milotic and Blastoise) is pretty unbelievable. I got a total of 2 wins in about 30 minutes of battling (~8-10 battles, not a very good record). One of them I basically had to put 0 effort into to be honest. Mawile actually handles Milotic very well with Sub + Taunt + BP, but it has to predict which move Milotic will use first.

I STILL believe banning ONLY Espeon (from the Baton Passers; Smeargle isn't really an issue without Espeon. No more so than in 4th Gen OU) will balance BP with the rest of the playstyles, as people are currently having to commit a large portion of the team to prevent BP, when, without Espeon, a simple Roar will stop every single Baton Pass user not named Mr. Mime and will phaze every recipient not named Cradily or Octillery.
I agree. I think it could very well turn out to be fine without Espeon. It's worth a try anyway. If it's not, we can ban something else aswell (e.g. Smeargle or Mew).
 

Delta 2777

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Guys, Baton Pass isn't broken. It does not make every relevant Pokemon with it broken. Drifblim is not broken. Ambipom is not broken. Scolipede is not broken. There tons of Pokemon with Baton Pass who are not broken in any way whatsoever.
Just posting to say the banning system never worked like this. When we banned Drizzle + Swift Swim, we effectively banned the combination of Luvdisc + Drizzle Politoes. Banning Inconsistent also banned Bidoof. Magikarp holding Brightpowder is also banned. Judging from our past actions, there is nothing suggesting that we can't ban Baton Pass just because not all users of it become broken.
 
Just posting to say the banning system never worked like this. When we banned Drizzle + Swift Swim, we effectively banned the combination of Luvdisc + Drizzle Politoes. Banning Inconsistent also banned Bidoof. Magikarp holding Brightpowder is also banned. Judging from our past actions, there is nothing suggesting that we can't ban Baton Pass just because not all users of it become broken.
I see that as a different situation. Bidoof actually was kinda broken, because no matter how low his stats, if he got speed and evasion he was going to stall SOMETHING out.

The Brightpowder ban was stupid in my opinion. It was banned even though no one halfway decent actually uses it except maybe on Cacturne. Not really broken on anything.

The Drizzle + SS ban was to prevent losing Rain Stall OR losing every Swift Swim user. It wouldn't have worked out if it was a Drizzle + Broken SS Users ban.

Baton Pass shouldn't be banned unless, like Inconsistent/Moody, everything with it becomes broken and wouldn't be broken without the move.
 
I see that as a different situation. Bidoof actually was kinda broken, because no matter how low his stats, if he got speed and evasion he was going to stall SOMETHING out.

The Brightpowder ban was stupid in my opinion. It was banned even though no one halfway decent actually uses it except maybe on Cacturne. Not really broken on anything.

The Drizzle + SS ban was to prevent losing Rain Stall OR losing every Swift Swim user. It wouldn't have worked out if it was a Drizzle + Broken SS Users ban.

Baton Pass shouldn't be banned unless, like Inconsistent/Moody, everything with it becomes broken and wouldn't be broken without the move.
This, to be quite honest.
Moody was broken; if you put it on anything shy of Unown or Magikarp, you could probably stall something out with Evasion.
SS + D was banned because Swiftswim was not broken; nor was Drizzle; but together they were in the majority of cases. Sure Luvdisk isn't breaking anything, but there were enough broken users to justify the ban.

Now Baton Pass; Is Ninjask Uber with it? How about Torchic? Or even Smeargle, Gorebyss and Huntail, if they doesn't run Shell Smash with it.

Either-
Ban Shell Smash + Baton Pass. I prefer this option, as it keeps the metagame as diverse as possible, whilst banning those which are broken.
Ban Smeargle, Gorebyss and Huntail. Gorebyss and Huntail are far from broken outside of Smash pass; infact, Baton Pass sets are all they can do and outside of Shell Smash they're horrendously outclassed. Smeargle is the ultimate Utility pokemon, but even then his niche tends to be "Something someone else can do better + Spore" or Baton Passes.
 

SJCrew

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The Drizzle + SS ban was to prevent losing Rain Stall OR losing every Swift Swim user.
Just quoting this to point out that nobody who voted for SS + Drizzle actually cared about Rain stall. I'm not sure why this being brought up constantly around the forums, but "losing a playstyle" is not a legitimate reason to keep something broken in the tier. Drizzle + SS was to keep the weather wars in effect without reducing it either Drought vs. Sand Stream or utter Sand dominance. We were never in danger of losing all Swift Swim users either, since banning Swift Swim alone wasn't discussed or even an option at the time. It was either Drizzle or Drizzle + SS.
 
I'm finding Honchkrow to be very useful. With Moxie and BB/Suckerpunch/Roost/Sub it really can sweep up teams with the attack boost. Right now, I use max HP for 101 hp subs, but so far it hasn't been at all useful, so I'll end up changing it.
 

Bad Ass

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Why can't we just ban 3 BP users on the same team? That way you can save the viability of things that are not broken, such as Venomoth or AgiliPass Zapdos, while nipping full-fledged BP teams in the bud.

Banning the move Baton Pass is really dumb.
 
Well that doesn't solve the problem that people seem to think that Shash Pass is broken. For example you can still do Azelf -> Gorebyss/Smeargle -> Nidoking with BP Espeon still on the team to stop Taunt / Phaze. I still don't think it's broken but that strategy is basically unaffected.
 
I would support such a ban. Smashpass isn't that hard to plan for and deal with, but BP chains are a nightmare. BW UU has such good tools for this that you can lose the chain and still win if you at least did damage. Assist Power is no small part of the pain, either, meaning you don't even need to get six Calm Minds from the same mon to plow through everything - you can accumulate various boosts while passing around and still have ridiculous power.

Whether Espeon is broken without BP or vice versa I'm not so sure, though.
 
I vote for not banning Baton Pass, or Shell Smash. I agree that something needs to be done, but not banning parts of Pokemon's movepools. Cut off Baton Pass, and Espeon can still do stuff, but not as much as it could have.

Pokemon should be used to their full potential, and if that makes them broken then ban them.
 
aright just got voting reqs; imo the only things that deserve a ban are victini, baton chains, shell smash and weather (aboma/hippopotas)
 

DetroitLolcat

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Look, can we just stick to banning Pokemon and abilities and not fucking move combos? This is Pokemon, not Street Fighter. The only Baton Pass strategy that's even remotely broken (and it is broken...) is SmashPass, so why not just ban the three fucking Pokemon that can smashpass?

Really, all we would have to do is ban Smeargle and SmashPass wouldn't be broken (The only thing that breaks it is the free Spore set-up turn), but for compromise's sake can we just stick to moving three Pokemon to BL?

Sure, all they can do is SmashPass, but IF A POKEMON CAN RUN A BROKEN SET, THEN IT IS BROKEN. We didn't ban Outrage+Draco Meteor last gen to save Mence. We didn't ban Trick+Choice Specs to save Latias last gen. We didn't ban Sand Veil+Substitute this gen. We didn't ban Speed Boost+Hi Jump Kick to save Blaziken, so why the hell are we banning Shell Smash+Baton Pass to save Smeargle, Huntail, and Gorebyss?????

Just because it's only one broken set doesn't mean we should go "ooooooh complex ban how progressive look at us on the cutting edge...". Look at OU. SmashPass got nominated there but it was denied Suspect status because it's a complex ban. Can we please, please drop the obvious double standard and just ban the Pokemon that break the metagame?

We shouldn't "restrict" a strategy to tailor it to the UU tier. We should notice that Smeargle, Huntail, and Gorebyss do not belong in the tier and ban them. Just like we did for two generations.
 

jrrrrrrr

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Why would we ban SmashPass when there's only one pokemon capable of sweeping in UU with it? And even then, an Espeon sweep is STILL difficult to pull off. Espeon is the only reason why SmashPassing is a viable strategy in UU, and it's the only reason why Baton Pass is used in OU at all. Smeargle, Gorebyss and Huntail are not nearly good enough to be banned (as their presence in RU would indicate), and their support movepools only make one pokemon in the tier potentially broken. It seems pretty obvious what the right move here is.

Instead of making absurdly specific rules we should ban the enablers. Smash Pass isn't broken (or at least, it's hard to argue that it is) without Magic Mirror Espeon, so just take it out instead of trying to neuter pokemon to make the tier more diverse in looks alone. I would rather have Espeon be BL than have a list of illegal move combinations, since that just opens a huge can of worms.

What's next? Are people going to suggest "Ban SmashPass but only on things with more than 200 SpAtk/Atk and the thing you pass to can't have more than 124 HP EVs or the move Stored Power or the ability Magic Mirror and it can't have the move Taunt there either or Wobbuffet on the same team if it has Encore".

You guys are seriously talking about enforcing no Viloplumes with Substitute as a rule on what is supposed to be a competitive pokemon site.
 
To be honest, Espeon breaks Smash Pass and Baton Pass in general. Instead of discussing banning that, let's discuss banning Espeon first.
 
I agree with jrrrrrr. Although I also believe that Mew is a problem on Baton Pass chains. With some speed boosts, you won't be taunting Mew, and it can Taunt you back and proceed to set up Barrier, and then you won't be OHKOing it, while it can stop Haze/Roar/Perish Song, use Substitute to block Dragon Tail, and just BP away from something that can do heavy damage to it (Heracross).
 
Espeon needs to go. If Smashpass is still a problem, then ban the 3 users of the combination. There is absolutely no reason for a complex ban. It's complete BS. Does anybody really think that we need Gorebyss/Huntail/Smeargle in the tier? Every other Pokemon that can utilize a broken set is banned, not nerfed. What the hell makes them so special?

And sorry, but banning Baton Pass all on its own is stupid. Monumentally stupid. Seriously, the fact that people are even suggesting such a stupid "solution" makes me cringe. It's ridiculous.
 

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Look, can we just stick to banning Pokemon and abilities and not fucking move combos? This is Pokemon, not Street Fighter. The only Baton Pass strategy that's even remotely broken (and it is broken...) is SmashPass, so why not just ban the three fucking Pokemon that can smashpass?

Really, all we would have to do is ban Smeargle and SmashPass wouldn't be broken (The only thing that breaks it is the free Spore set-up turn), but for compromise's sake can we just stick to moving three Pokemon to BL?

Sure, all they can do is SmashPass, but IF A POKEMON CAN RUN A BROKEN SET, THEN IT IS BROKEN. We didn't ban Outrage+Draco Meteor last gen to save Mence. We didn't ban Trick+Choice Specs to save Latias last gen. We didn't ban Sand Veil+Substitute this gen. We didn't ban Speed Boost+Hi Jump Kick to save Blaziken, so why the hell are we banning Shell Smash+Baton Pass to save Smeargle, Huntail, and Gorebyss?????

Just because it's only one broken set doesn't mean we should go "ooooooh complex ban how progressive look at us on the cutting edge...". Look at OU. SmashPass got nominated there but it was denied Suspect status because it's a complex ban. Can we please, please drop the obvious double standard and just ban the Pokemon that break the metagame?

We shouldn't "restrict" a strategy to tailor it to the UU tier. We should notice that Smeargle, Huntail, and Gorebyss do not belong in the tier and ban them. Just like we did for two generations.
Speaking of the complex ban, it was a shame that reachzero took a zero tolerance approach to it, which is slightly unfair imo. Aldaron's Proposal's effectiveness should have shed light on the viability of such a ban. Yes, I agree that we should nominate complex bans in moderation, because when everything's equal, simplicity > complexity. However, he dismissed the nomination for Shell Smash + Baton Pass ban for the sole reason that it was a combination ban, which I find it to be an unwarranted bias on his part. Jabba had no problems having Smash Pass as a nomination in UU Suspect Round 1. I find this much more reasonable than banning 3 Pokemon, whose all broken for that one reason. Gorebyss and Huntail can still see use as a non-broken viable Shell Smash Sweeper; Smeargle can still take part in BP chains without passing Shell Smash.

I respect reachzero's work and contribution on this rigorous process. I just hope that we keep the metagame's balance and stability in mind before technical details ("It's a combination ban!"). If the strategy breaks a set of monsters, why not ban the common factor rather than the entire set of monsters?

TBH, I find Shell Smash + Baton Pass more justified than Aldaron's Proposal, because in this case all the users are deemed broken with it (like Moody).
 
Complex SmashPass Suspect --> Individual Suspects (Gorebyss, Huntail, & Smeargle)

Why would we ban SmashPass when there's only one pokemon capable of sweeping in UU with it? And even then, an Espeon sweep is STILL difficult to pull off. Espeon is the only reason why SmashPassing is a viable strategy in UU, and it's the only reason why Baton Pass is used in OU at all. Smeargle, Gorebyss and Huntail are not nearly good enough to be banned (as their presence in RU would indicate), and their support movepools only make one pokemon in the tier potentially broken. It seems pretty obvious what the right move here is.

Instead of making absurdly specific rules we should ban the enablers. Smash Pass isn't broken (or at least, it's hard to argue that it is) without Magic Mirror Espeon, so just take it out instead of trying to neuter pokemon to make the tier more diverse in looks alone. I would rather have Espeon be BL than have a list of illegal move combinations, since that just opens a huge can of worms.

What's next? Are people going to suggest "Ban SmashPass but only on things with more than 200 SpAtk/Atk and the thing you pass to can't have more than 124 HP EVs or the move Stored Power or the ability Magic Mirror and it can't have the move Taunt there either or Wobbuffet on the same team if it has Encore".

You guys are seriously talking about enforcing no Viloplumes with Substitute as a rule on what is supposed to be a competitive pokemon site.
True talk. Espeon should definitely get nominated (even though it's likely moving to OU soon), and SmashPass suspect needs to be shifted to individual Gorebyss, Huntail, and Smeargle bans.
 
I agree with jrrrrr; if there had to be a culprit I think it's most obvious that it's Espeon. I still don't really believe Baton Pass is broken nor would I vote to ban Espeon at all, however it's the only ban that makes sense if people are adamant about banning the strategy.

My only concern is people running Mew with Taunt and then people bitching to ban Mew because Baton Pass is still viable and not a free win when unprepared.
 
Actually, if SmashPass was the problem, is there a problem if we actually banned the move Shell Smash itself? I'm not really so sure on the implications of this, but it does seem much more viable to me to ban Shell Smash instead of complex bans and the like.

a quick rundown on Shell Smash users:

Cloyster--doesn't give a fuck, its OU
Omastar/Torkoal/Magcargo/Carracosta--I haven't really seen these four in action AFAIK, so I dunno if they'd be affected by a Smash ban.
Crustle--Admittedly, the only one who'd get nerfed by a ban on Shell Smash, but I find it better to setup SR instead.
Smeargle/Gorebyss/Huntail--The main focus of this.

So out of so many SS users, only Crustle is probably getting nerf'd, the others just plain suck IMO: Omastar is pointless now without Drizzle, Torkoal, Magcargo and Carracosta are really really rare in the metagame, and Cloyster doesn't give a fuck.
 
Espeon is the only reason why SmashPassing is a viable strategy in UU
lol... Right. Espeon is only broken in a large baton pass chain where Shell Smash isn't necessary. There are plenty of viable sweepers who can effectively receive Shell Smash such as Nidoking, Electivire, etc, anything with passable stats and good coverage.

Espeon does not solve the smash pass issue.
 
lol... Right. Espeon is only broken in a large baton pass chain where Shell Smash isn't necessary. There are plenty of viable sweepers who can effectively receive Shell Smash such as Nidoking, Electivire, etc, anything with passable stats and good coverage.

Espeon does not solve the smash pass issue.
You overlooked something - Espeon is the one that is difficult to PHaze out, making it pretty much the best receiver of any BP boosts because of Magic Mirror. That's really the key to what makes Espeon being on the receiving end of boosts so troublesome.
 
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