Poll for our default simulator tiering level

What should our default XY tiering level be?

  • Level 50

    Votes: 247 38.6%
  • Level 100

    Votes: 393 61.4%

  • Total voters
    640
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Manaphy

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I've made my main points elsewhere, so I'm not going to make a large post here, but I just want to say that this mindset is very much not what we should be using to make this decision. Choosing 50 has metagame implications, sure. So does choosing 100. But the fact is THERE IS NO METAGAME YET, so while whatever choice we make will have effects, it won't change anything in the meta. It can't, because the metagame doesn't exist. Yeah, so Zapdos may die to a certain hit at 50 that it would not at 100. But if we choose 50, then in 6th gen, that is always how it was and always how it will be. We are not changing the meta. We are creating it.
Sure, we're creating it now, but considering we've been playing at level 100 for five generations, you can't really have that mindset. If no one had created this thread, we'd all assume we'd be playing at level 100, and everyone would be fine with it.
 

Sprocket

P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
Not in tournaments, Random Wi-Fi, and probably many battles against friends where auto-level 50 is used.
Most Nintendo tournaments also aren't 6v6 Singles. VGC for example is Doubles, bring 6 pick 4, with version mascots and event legendaries banned, with Pokemon leveled down to 50 (level 49 and below are not leveled up).
 
Only on battles that are set to that. The game can entirely handle lvl 100 pokemon in pvp.
But not in most formats. You can't auto-level 50, you can't set Battle Maison to level 100, you can't just agree with your VGC opponent that both your teams will be level 100. These are all things in cartridge that can only be level 50. Level 100 makes sense only in that it's the "highest possible." To me, the highest possible is less sensible than the most applicable, which level 50 undeniably is in cartridge.
 
Most Nintendo tournaments also aren't 6v6 Singles. VGC for example is Doubles, bring 6 pick 4, with version mascots and event legendaries banned, with Pokemon leveled down to 50 (level 49 and below are not leveled up).
Smogon offers a double format on its server. Are you a proponent that only certain setting should be set to level 50, all else remaining 100?
 

Okuu

Blame [me] for Global Warming!
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This exactly, level 100 is far more likely than using a Dragonite with a move from pokemon xd.


First Point: 4 Evs at level 100 equate to 1 point in a stat. Level 50 does not have an equivalent as 8 and 4 could both be the difference between a point depending on a base stat. IVs are inherently straight forward at level 100, add them to your stat. Thus level 100 is more straight forward.

Second Point: It is possible to have level 100 battles over wifi by changing the ruleset and having level 100 pokemon which are easy to obtain with in a few hours. Although breeding has been made significantly easier, the few hours to get to level 100 are significantly less than the hours required to breed six pokemon with 6 perfect IVs. Level 100 battles do not conflict with any in game mechanics and our possible on Wifi.

Third Point: 4% damage could be the difference between One hit and two hit knock outs. Speed stats as mentioned above become inherently more complicated and crucial. Although they appear trivial these changes inherently hinder the competition between pokemon.

Fourth Point: I will repeat this. This argument of adhering to cartridge mechanics is a perpetualized lie at Smogon backed by the unfounded argument of a slippery slope. Maybe we should stop calling PO, Shoddy, Pokelab, and PS simulators as they are totally different beasts all together. We simulate pokemon battles while implementing tiers, ratings, clauses, and bans none of which included in the game itself. As a battle simulator moves, move sets etc. must be maintained however we are not a wifi simulator. Wifi does not prevent me from using darkrai, wifi doesn't assume 31 ivs in every stat, the list goes on and on.
Upstart: Smogon isn't an entity devoted to accurately emulating the game of Pokemon (to my knowledge). Rather, they're an entity that seeks to improve the state of competitive battling, and to constantly push the boundaries of what defines the strongest team, while removing aspects that hinder a competitive play style. Here, we remove the in-game aspects of breeding for IVs and move sets by immediately giving the player the option to select whatever (possible) values they desire. We automatically enable them to use Pokemon that they might not have access to, or might not even own the game of. At the same time, we delegate Pokemon into tiers and create ban lists, as that allows us to maintain a more diverse array of available, viable strategies for players to choose from and otherwise formulate on their own. We wholeheartedly support this endeavor.

However, if you don't mind me getting philosophical, then I must ask this: "Why do we play competitive Pokemon?" Is it to practice new strategies to beat your friends in real life? Is it because you find the underlying mechanics of the game to be interesting? Perhaps you aspire to compete in a real-world event and want to make sure you're up to par. Or maybe it's just the way you best enjoy playing Pokemon. You might even have your own, unique reasons for wanting to join us. These considerations have long been a part of the machinations of competitive battling, and they will continue to be so, as long as our users continue to submit their opinions.

Since the dawn of competitive battling, the Level 100 cap has been the standard. The earliest generations offered no scaling of their own, so the system-programmed cap of Level 100 made sense. In later games, all Pokemon on a team were scaled to Level 100, so that a perfectly trained Lv 34 Pikachu stood on even ground with a perfectly trained Lv 100 Pikachu. Until now, there has been no reason to change this convention. Now, the in-game level cap for a trainer battle is at a scaled 50. Meaning, a perfectly trained Lv 34 Pikachu will still stand on even ground with a perfectly trained Lv 100 Pikachu, but that ground will be a slightly different one than they might have stood upon in prior generations.

This is nothing to be fearful of. Change is to be expected with each new generation. With a loss comes a gain, and with a gain comes a loss. With a Pokemon suddenly finding itself disadvantaged by a change is a new Pokemon finding advantage in that change. The nerf to weather may very well herald the return of Drizzle + Swift Swim in competitive play. The loss of Steel's resistances to Dark / Ghost give some Pokemon a wider array of attacks to viably use, and may possibly prompt users to consider unused options instead. The weakening of some staple Special Attacks give players a more balanced choice between using a specific Pokemon as a Special Attacker / Physical Attacker / Mixed Attacker.

A potential small % increase in damage from a Level 50 cap may very well lead to certain Pokemon dying in 1/2 hits that could've taken 2/3. But that also allows Pokemon that could've killed a Pokemon in 2/3 hits to instead kill them in 1/2. This also applies to a recalculation of speed tiers. Instead of our traditional speed bases (which will likely have to be recalculated regardless), we will instead have newer ones. This isn't something that 'hinders' competitive play. Unless you are one to consider the very release of X/Y to be a hindrance. We are going to put a lot of effort into accurately emulating Pokemon battles in X/Y, so why not use that effort and do it right the first time?
 
Most Nintendo tournaments also aren't 6v6 Singles. VGC for example is Doubles, bring 6 pick 4, with version mascots and event legendaries banned, with Pokemon leveled down to 50 (level 49 and below are not leveled up).
Why in the world would you use something lower than the limit for anything other than one of the gimicky lv 1 sets? Most version mascots and event legendaries are banned by Smogon anyway so that really does not matter.
 
I've made my main points elsewhere, so I'm not going to make a large post here, but I just want to say that this mindset is very much not what we should be using to make this decision. Choosing 50 has metagame implications, sure. So does choosing 100. But the fact is THERE IS NO METAGAME YET, so while whatever choice we make will have effects, it won't change anything in the meta. It can't, because the metagame doesn't exist. Yeah, so Zapdos may die to a certain hit at 50 that it would not at 100. But if we choose 50, then in 6th gen, that is always how it was and always how it will be. We are not changing the meta. We are creating it.
I can see the point that there is no established metagame to detract from, but if you think back to 5th gen, there were a great many Pokemon that stood just on the cusp of brokeness, held back by the fact they just barely couldn't get the O/2HKOes they wanted. 248HP Tentacruel is over 5 times more likely to be 3HKOd by Scarf Keldeo's rain Hydro Pump at level 50 than it is at level 100. Does this one calc make Keldeo broken where before it was not? Of course not. But applied across every Pokemon, there are a whole host of offensive threats that become just a little bit tougher to deal with. Did you know that at level 50, Kyurem-B's LO 252+ Earth Power is nearly three times as likely to 2HKO standard Ferrothorn compared to level 100? Suddenly one of the few decent KyuB checks is quite a lot shakier.

Of course we can simply ban any Pokemon that becomes too difficult to handle with the increased power, but if our aim in creating a metagame is to have one as diverse and competitive as possible, level 100 is clearly superior to level 50.
 
Upstart: Smogon isn't an entity devoted to accurately emulating the game of Pokemon (to my knowledge). Rather, they're an entity that seeks to improve the state of competitive battling, and to constantly push the boundaries of what defines the strongest team, while removing aspects that hinder a competitive play style. Here, we remove the in-game aspects of breeding for IVs and move sets by immediately giving the player the option to select whatever (possible) values they desire. We automatically enable them to use Pokemon that they might not have access to, or might not even own the game of. At the same time, we delegate Pokemon into tiers and create ban lists, as that allows us to maintain a more diverse array of available, viable strategies for players to choose from and otherwise formulate on their own. We wholeheartedly support this endeavor.
1. lol no, so far i have noticed many on the sims using all of 15-20 pokemon in each tier and ignoring the rest, the tier system makes people think that anything below the tier is bad (no matter how people want to say it, this is what happens) and when something comes out that harms their precious T-tar/sand teams or brings about huge change they ban it immediately while also loving stealth rocks despite it completely focusing the meta-game. That might not be most people here and it is probably not the intent of the people who do it, but it is what i have noticed in battles and the way they have shaped their meta-game.
 

jas61292

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I can see the point that there is no established metagame to detract from, but if you think back to 5th gen, there were a great many Pokemon that stood just on the cusp of brokeness, held back by the fact they just barely couldn't get the O/2HKOes they wanted. 248HP Tentacruel is over 5 times more likely to be 3HKOd by Scarf Keldeo's rain Hydro Pump at level 50 than it is at level 100. Does this one calc make Keldeo broken where before it does not? Of course not. But applied across every Pokemon, there are a whole host of offensive threats that become just a little bit tougher to deal with. Did you know that at level 50, Kyurem-B's LO 252+ Earth Power is nearly three times as likely to 2HKO standard Ferrothorn compared to level 100? Suddenly one of the few decent KyuB checks is quite a lot shakier.

Of course we can simply ban any Pokemon that becomes too difficult to handle with the increased power, but if aim in creating a metagame is to have one as diverse and competitive as possible, level 100 is clearly superior to level 50.
That is only if you set standards that this kind of stuff is not OK. Remember, EVERYTHING is effected by the power increase. It may change what is broken, sure, but it won't necessarily make more things broken unless you set an arbitrary power level based on a level 100 game and ban anything above it.
 
Tounraments and random wi-fi where people aren't going to follow smogon rules anyway...
again, we also have our own tier for vgc. They have their rules, and we have our own.
You're notable a believer that Smogon isn't a simulator of in game battles, but is a separate entity that develops its own rules. That's where we differ in opinions. People aren't going to follow any Smogon rules for ANY battles in game. People who battle in game often don't know Smogon exists and couldn't care less. But in this belief, why are some movesets illegal? If Smogon is completely removed from the cartridge (as you seem to believe) why do we care that the egg moves aren't compatible?

I feel as though Smogon is trying to take cartridge battles and place them into a manageable format with tiering, not separate us entirely from the cartridge play.

Also, Showdown! has the capacity for VGC and random battles. Should these follow completely different rules? Are we ONLY simulating the ones that we want to simulate, leaving the "standard" tier in its own category, separated from the cartridge?
 

Okuu

Blame [me] for Global Warming!
is a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnus
I'm finding it disconcerting that so many people are resilient to change. And that they all target specific "Over-used" Pokemon when making their arguments, and how they will be knocked-out much faster because of this change. Isn't that part of the goal here? To balance the game and diversify the strategies that you can choose? How can you cheer for the potential inclusion of Pokemon like Galvantula into OU, and yet be so afraid that a top contender like Ferrothorn might lost a small bit of utility?
 

Sprocket

P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
Smogon offers a double format on its server. Are you a proponent that only certain setting should be set to level 50, all else remaining 100?
Smogon's Doubles metagame is 6v6 Doubles, bring 6 pick 6.
Why in the world would you use something lower than the limit for anything other than one of the gimicky lv 1 sets? Most version mascots and event legendaries are banned by Smogon anyway so that really does not matter.
In VGC, Level 1 Endeavor Aron and Level 1 Trick Room Whimsicott have specific niches. True Smogon bans most version mascot legendaries, but because they are overpowered and centralizing, not because they are version mascots; see Kyurem and Kyurem-Black. Most event legendaries are not banned from Smogon OU, only specific ones and depending on the generation; for example Gen 4 Mew is Uber, Gen 5 Mew is UU. Likewise Smogon OU has Garchomp banned in Gen 4, and it went between banned and not banned in Gen 5.
 
If Smogon is completely removed from the cartridge (as you seem to believe) why do we care that the egg moves aren't compatible?
I'm not suggesting we change the game's actual mechanics. I just think that it's silly that we restrict ourselves by rules that only apply in certain settings when we can (and do) make rules based off of what is possible to happen in the game.
 
Smogon's Doubles metagame is 6v6 Doubles, bring 6 pick 6.

In VGC, Level 1 Endeavor Aron and Level 1 Trick Room Whimsicott have specific niches. True Smogon bans most version mascot legendaries, but because they are overpowered and centralizing, not because they are version mascots; see Kyurem and Kyurem-Black. Most event legendaries are not banned from Smogon OU, only specific ones and depending on the generation; for example Gen 4 Mew is Uber, Gen 5 Mew is UU. Likewise Smogon OU has Garchomp banned in Gen 4, and it went between banned and not banned in Gen 5.
Nintendo bans pokemon for the same reason as Smogon does. I am against pokemon like Chomp and Blaze getting banned anyway, mostly because they are not as hard to take down as people think they are. Blaziken For example has paper thin defenses and was banned because people switched a lot to try and counter it and let it get a SD up, which is STUPID. Any decently bulky pokemon who also has a super effective move against him can easily OHKO or get him in range for recoil, priority, or scarfer to beat him.

I also HIGHLY doubt it was GF's intention to make Lv. 1's useable.
 
(woah first post, mind that I just stare at threads mostly, as seen by that beautiful join date)

one thing that a lot of people are sort of missing out is why keeping true to the common ruleset on the cart is important, mostly just saying "well, it's a simulator, so it SHOULD be, right???", which has little meaning. here's the thing: people who are going to come into smogon are coming from these games. likely, they're going to see something like VGC, or play some wi-fi battles, think "hey, this is pretty cool! I should look up some stuff regarding this!", and plop onto the internet for some searching. you might be wondering "well, why is that important", and the reason is because they're going to be immediately more comfortable with the rulesets nintendo has given them, and if what smogon gives them is wildly different from what the ruleset they're used to, then that's more stuff that they have to learn in order to get into the meta. that's kind of a deal, because that's the people who could then become the future of smogon. you want them to be comfortable instantly, so then they're in your community and all is fanciful and lovely. if you don't do that, then the community, at best, will stay a static, ungrowing glob that will just slowly flat out over time, and at worst, will basically be a desert within years.

admittedly, this could be anxiety on my part. my argument's less of one regarding objecting concepts, and one that fits a lot more into an iffy grey area. so long as the metagame is still perfectly playable, I'd be okay with a level 50 cap, because then that's something else where someone relatively experienced in other pokemon metagames can, at the very least, find some footing in.
 
I thought auto-50 was an option on Wi-fi? That is, you can still have lv100 battles if you bother to grind long enough.

As for what I think, I don't see a problem with having both lv50 and lv100 as options on simulators. I can understand where both arguments are coming from: lv50 is easier to achieve in-game, while lv100 has finer-tuned stats and less focus on offence. If you have both options, you can choose to have lv100 battles (I don't really see how this makes the metagame "pure", which I think is subjective anyway, but if you wish to) or test lv50 teams on simulators before making them in-game. It satisfies both camps. I haven't cast a vote because of this, and from what I understand, is optional on Wi-fi battles that aren't random battles anyway.
 
I'm finding it disconcerting that so many people are resilient to change. And that they all target specific "Over-used" Pokemon when making their arguments, and how they will be knocked-out much faster because of this change. Isn't that part of the goal here? To balance the game and diversify the strategies that you can choose? How can you cheer for the potential inclusion of Pokemon like Galvantula into OU, and yet be so afraid that a top contender like Ferrothorn might lost a small bit of utility?
I'm not worried about Pokemon like Ferrothorn getting worse. I'm worried about Pokemon like Kyurem-B getting better. Game Freak have, in my mind, already done a great job of trying to balance the game with generation 6 - sure it isn't perfect, but I'm optimistic things will be significantly better that they were at the end of gen 5. Why undermine their work to balance things a little more in favour of defensive teams by giving offensive Pokemon a blanket buff? I just can't see any concievable way that setting levels to 50 will result in a more desirable metagame - offense doesn't need to be any better - and the only way I feel a change like this should be justified is with the conviction that it might feasibly result in a more desirable metagame, and I can't any way that making our metagame more offensively-inclined, or alternatively banning several more Pokemon is going to make the game more fun. I can't see how the minicule advantages of this change outweight the clear negatives resulting from the way things work at a lower level.

I voted for level 50 for the reasons Aldaron gave, especially since there is no level 100 battles in the real X and Y.
This is why the OP really needs to by changed. There are perfectly playable, functional, not-in-any-way-compromised level 100 battles in X and Y, they just don't have random matchmaking. I would confidently say it is significantly easier to fly half way across the world to play a local game with someone than it is to acquire a legitimate flawless Bold Chansey with Wish, so we already have a disparity between the ease of simulators and the ease of local games. Smogon has never been about simulating Wi-FI and I don't see any good reason for that to change with generation six.
 
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