Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

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the buff to defog keeps rocks off the field much much easier than in past gens
he is the best substitute user out there, it's like a DD sweep from zard x, all he needs is one free turn to fuck your entire team up
there is only 1 sure fire counter to the sub set and that's physically defensive sylveon and that's because hyper voice goes through the sub, mega gardevoir gets 2HKO'd by fusion bolt
it's still got really awesome bulk despite a mediocre typing
hits hard as fuck even without a boosting item or move
have you ever tried switching into this thing? it's nigh impossible
he has mold breaker
his speed stat lets him outrun almost all defensive pokemon with minimal investment
 

TheEnder

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+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 339-399 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

That's a pretty much a best case scenario for Chansey. And Outrage/Flare Blitz 2HKOs it without a boost. And if Physically defensive Chansey is 2HKO'd, then it should be fairly obvious what happens to Blissey. So Chansey/Blissey cannot stop both versions on turn 1. Sure, if it's Charizard Y, then you made a lucky guess but risking a 2HKO from Charizard X isn't the wisest move.
Running a Sturdy/Sash mon for the express purpose of sacrificing and scouting its set supports its absolutely insane unpredictability. And it will be a straight-up sacrifice more often than not because most Sturdy mons are slower than Charizard and Focus Sashes are unreliable with the existence and omnipresence of Stealth Rock.
I already went over the point when Charizard mega evolves and loses its potency. Every Pokemon in the game loses some potency when it reveals its set, but nothing in the game can hide its set like Charizard can, except for Mewtwo who is Uber and an S-rank Uber at that.
On the speed issue, Charizard X has Dragon Dance, and Charizard Y is a wallbreaker who will usually come in on something slower to nuke something.
Please keep both Charizards S-rank. Individually, they may not be S-rank threats, but when they have almost polar opposite roles and you initially don't know which one it is, then not having both be S-rank is a crime.
Yeah, I actually agree on your points :) I may have expressed myself poorly, but to sum up my post: I feel that the possibility of going either way when Mega-Evolving is what keeps CharY up there :)

Otherwise i totally agree (lol I meant Chansey leading then T-Wave, but then again that would be kinda dumb because leaving Chansey in for Conk getting a Guts boost isn't favorable), mabye it would really be stupid to drop it down ;)
 
Char Y dropping sounds ridiculous to me as Char X is S rank in a huge part due to Y since one basically can not be without the other since you never know what the heck it could be.

and 4MSS? Just choose what the heck you want it to do as it may be a wall breaker, but you don't need to be able to hit every damn thing. Sp. Attackers have been walled by blobs for years and it doesn't make them any less viable.

Now while being restricted to S rank and A ranks..... I would like to ask I'd we can take another look at Clefable and see if it really deserves A- rank.

He has a great mono typing that is true. His Stored Power sets are a pain to fight sometimes (but crits will happen) and he has the abilities to boot. I'm just wondering if that he should go a little higher or stay the same as I would like to bring up a wall for a change (or sweeper, depending on your use I guess).
 
Why exactly is Kyu-B +A rank? I feel like Kyu-B isn't as good as it could be, lacking movepool, weak to hazards and all. I'm not into battling anymore, but I'd like an explanation from someone if possible. I could surely tell from gen 5 that it wasn't that good though, what gets it A+ rank?
Is basically one of the best wall breakers and can 2HKO the whole tier. Can set up Substitue on Rotom-W, defensive Heatran, Chan/Bliss, and many more.
Also, Teravolt destroy Sturdy (Skarm), Unaware (Clefa), Levitite (Rotom-W) and Thick Fat (MVenusaur).
Sylveon, Ferrothorn, Noiverm and MGardevoir are good checks and revenge killers, but some uncommon.
 
Deoxys-S: Drop down to A

He is a great revenge killer/lead and has such a massive movepool aside from the hazard support but let's face it, it's brother D has outshown it in the hazard department so the surprise bluff has taken a hit. If the priorities don't nuke him from the start or whenever he shows up, he is usually limited to one hazard where the opponent can simply send in his hazard removal crew and that's that.
I agree that Deoxys-S is somewhat outdone as a suicide lead by Deoxys-D. However, I think that his revenge killing LO set is easily enough to keep him in A+. It outspeeds everything up to +1 maximum investment base 102 speed, while being able to change moves and hitting harder than most scarfers thanks to the ability to carry life orb. Psycho boost hits incredibly hard allowing him to KO even relatively bulky things as long as they don't resist it (physically defensive Rotom-W takes about 75%), and he has great coverage with Ice Beam / HP Fire / Superpower. This thing is arguably the best revenge killer in OU right now (tied with Talonflame imo), and that should be enough to keep it in A+.

Why isn't Raikou in the list? With AV that Pokemon is awesome.
are we gonna talk about azumarill moving a rank or no?
Guys we're just talking about things currently ranked A+ or S. Save Azumarill and Raikou until we discuss whatever rank they are.
 
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Charzard Y definitely deserves to stay S rank. If you have a dedicated Special Wall such as Chansey or Sylveon you'll be fine, but the vast majority of teams are offense (thus don't run either), and can do little other than to sack a mon and revenge kill it, if it comes in on something that can't touch it.
 
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I think Heatran should be in the S tier, but at the same time I'm not sure if that's the proper tier. Despite its low speed and huge Ground weakness, it has a phenomenal offensive and defensive typing, especially with flash fire. It can take on the role of an Offensive, Defensive, or Supportive pokemon, making it very unpredictable.. It also has great defenses. The low speed and Ground weakness can be mitigated by support. One pokemon is enough to declare Heatran a good partner, and vice versa. That pokemon needs Heatran, Heatran can rely on that other pokemon. Excellent synergy with lots of pokes. This guy is just difficult to defeat while its owner has other pokemon. It itself is also a free switch thanks to its typing. Fire is also insane offensively - to the point where a balanced team can always use one, in my opinion.
The only reason why Heatran should stay in A+ is because of its difficulty in dealing with Water types, but again, it doesn't ask for much support in dealing with this. Thoughts?
 

Gary

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Aegislash should definitely stay in S-rank, no questions asked. It poops on so much of the metagame and it checks the living hell out of top tier threats such as Thundurus, Deoxys-S, both Lati twins, Scizor, Terrakion, and much more. Not only that, but it also breaks down common defensive Pokemon with ease, making it easy for a teammate to come in a sweep once it weakens down their counters. It's also incredibly versatile, capable of running the classic mixed tank with King's Shield to screw with physical attackers, and all out attacker that's able to break through most walls with ease, and an SD or Autotomize to sweep. It's just got the perfect movepool for what it wants to accomplish, and it's absolutely terrifying to most offensive teams, making it a huge threat. Definitely stays in S.

Both Charizards are so good in this meta, and none of them should drop either. I don't understand why some people assume that they're only in S-rank because of the mind games they play until they mega evolve, because that's definitely not the only reason. Charizard X is one of the best sweepers in the meta bar none, and its ability to go bulky or offensive makes it that much more of a threat. Charizard Y is nearly impossible to switch into, and while it has a nasty SR weakness even after Mega evolving, Defog and Excadrill are so damn easy to slap on a team that it isn't much of a problem. Although it's hard to afford giving up reliable recovery to 2HKO Latias, the fact that you don't really know the last move it's running until it uses it is terrifying. Besides, if you don't have something like Latias on most of your teams, playing around Charizard Y is a bitch in general, because it 2HKOes a majority of the meta with just Fire Blast, forcing you to rely on checking it. Both are solid S rank, and arguably the best Megas in OU right now with Mega Luc gone.

Mega Pinsir is a tough one, but playing with and against it so many times, I think it deserves to stay S. Once its checks and counters are gone, nothing can stop it from sweeping. Even if its counters are still present, as long as they're weakened enough, a +2 Return is going to easily knock some of them out. Priority makes it very difficult to revenge kill properly without something like Talon or priority T-wave from Thundurus, and with EQ it no longer has to worry about being completely walled by Aegislash. Stealth Rock isn't too much of an issue because Pinsir isn't usually going to come in until late game to sweep, meaning that it's only going to be 25% weak to SR for most of the time. Besides, Defog is everywhere yadayada. It's just such an easy Pokemon to use and sweeping comes easy once its checks and counters are weakened.

Mega Venu is really controversial, and I don't think I have enough experience with it to judge where it should be. I've faced it countless of times, and while I've had times where it was really easy to get around I've also had instances where it never dies. I'll just leave other people to discuss it for now.

Most of the A+ rank also look fine to be honest. Kyurem-B is a god among Pokemon and is so good in this meta because of its Teravolt ability and insane attacking stats. Deoxys-S is still a really good hazard lead and its LO set sets it apart from Deo-D, who I think should move up to A+ because it's almost just as good as Deo-S in the hazard department. Rotom-W should stay in A+ because whatever defensive stat it doesn't invest in it ends up being pretty frail on that side, and it doesn't really have a reliable way of recovering its health without using ChestoResto, which gives up valuable Lefties recovery and after it's used once than you no longer have reliable ways of healing at all. This makes it pretty easy to wear down in general, which is why the infamous bird core is so deadly because of their ability to easily overwhelm Rotom-W and take advantage of its lack of reliable healing. It's a solid A+ rank though, simply because it's so anti metagame and it keeps a lot of key Pokemon in check.

Manaphy is an incredible sweeper, but it shouldn't go to S. It's pretty damn weak before it sets up, and what really sucks is that it's either walled by bulky Water-types or Mega Venusaur. It's also not that fastest Pokemon, making it relatively easy to revenge kill once it's weakened a bit. I could potentially see Thundurus in S simply because its priority T-wave is like the greatest thing ever and its amazing speed tier allows it to revenge a huge portion of the meta, and sweep relatively easy with Nasty Plot. It's a close one though.

Everything else looks fine.
 
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mega pinsir should not be S, pretty much any scarfer can take it out providing they're not weak to flying, its really weak to hazards aswell, the whole "moxie then mega" thing is pretty cool, but it just isn't good enough to be S
 

Gary

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mega pinsir should not be S, pretty much any scarfer can take it out providing they're not weak to flying, its really weak to hazards aswell, the whole "moxie then mega" thing is pretty cool, but it just isn't good enough to be S
I don't think the "Choice Scarf argument" is a very good one for arguing that Pinsir should be moved down. What common Choice Scarfers are even used in OU? Garchomp and Landorus-T are the only I can think of, and Genesect is banned. Deo-S dies to a +2 Quick Attack. Latios is a terrible user of Scarf these days. So what else is there? Talonflame can revenge it, but it's not even a Choice Scarf user. They're just not as common as they were in Gen 5, and for good reason. You just lose so much momentum locking yourself into a move that it's usually not worth it. Besides, all top tier Pokemon are going to have something that can revenge kill them, but that doesn't make them not worthy to be S-rank. There's so many other qualities about Mega Pinsir that makes it so threatening. Even without a boost, it's able to pick off weakened sweepers and Fighting-types with Quick Attack, and Return is still going to be hitting extremely hard. It's not like you need to set up to use Pinsir properly. As soon as it Mega evolves, it's already an incredibly dangerous Pokemon.
 
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Tr
I don't think the "Choice Scarf argument" is a very good one for arguing that Pinsir should be moved down. What common Choice Scarfers are even used in OU? Garchomp is the only I can think of, and Genesect is banned. Deo-S dies to a +2 Quick Attack. Latios is a terrible user of Scarf these days. So what else is there? Talonflame can revenge it, but it's not even a Choice Scarf user.
tran, lando T, lando I, Rotom W.... And many many more.
 
I don't think the "Choice Scarf argument" is a very good one for arguing that Pinsir should be moved down. What common Choice Scarfers are even used in OU? Garchomp and Landorus-T are the only I can think of, and Genesect is banned. Deo-S dies to a +2 Quick Attack. Latios is a terrible user of Scarf these days. So what else is there? Talonflame can revenge it, but it's not even a Choice Scarf user. They're just not as common as they were in Gen 5, and for good reason. You just lose so much momentum locking yourself into a move that it's usually not worth it.
I have seen scarf mold breaker excadrill around, which seems to be one of the better scarfers. But, yeah I think for the most part your right. There's a lot more reliance on priority and paralyzing stuff than there was last gen.
 
Mega Charizard Y -> A+ rank
Other people have already explained their reasons for this and not much more needs to be said. It needs too much support and has a decent amount of checks/counters that cause it to not warrant S rank.

Talonflame to stay in A+ rank
I think this is the most disputable one right now. I think the best set it has right now is Band due to its immediate power that it provides. Swords Dance is nice and all, but it's countered and forced out by a decent portion of the meta. Band is a strong revenger, pivot, end game clean up, etc but it really lacks the raw power needed to efficiently do anything early in the game and its atrocious x4 weakness to SR makes it unworthy of S rank.
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time
If this is not a perfect description of Talonflame, then I don't know what is. Talonflame's wonderful strengths are hindered both by its frailness and x4 SR weakness. Spinning and Defogging create many opportunities for your opponent, but played correctly, Talonflame will still be able to revenge and end game clean up when needed despite the support it needs.

edit: oops meant A+ for megay
 
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With Lucario gone Pinsir is arguably the strongest sweeper in the tier. The sheer power of his +2 Return is unheard off he definetely deserves his S ranking.

The only current S rank that i have doubts about is Charizard X simply because of the fact that he has to choose between powerful moves with heavy drawbacks and weak moves without drawbacks. Outrage is kinda problematic in the current meta but dragon claw is lacking power, similar case with his fire type moves, along with some other dmg from hazards or priority flareblitz can quickly lead to a situation where its forced to roost and therefor giving the opponent a window to take it out. Maybe its just me but i often find my charizard sweeps cut short because of that. Its bulk while decent isnt enough to heal up against anything with some offensive presence. Dont get me wrong, its still very powerful, but imo its kinda overshadowed by mega pinsir.
 
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I think Charizard-y should be moved to A+ Rank. While it's a really really good Pokemon, it has a crippling stealth rock weakness that most pokemon in it's situation would drop tiers with. However, that's not the main problem. I feel the main problem with it is that it has a bit of a 4MSS. You need Fire Blast and Solarbeam which leaves 2 slots for it to choose coverage options from. You need Dragon Pulse to not get walled by Dragon-types like Latios but you need earthquake/Focus Blast to not get walled by Heatran or tyranitar with sandstorm. You may also need roost to increase it's longevity due to that extremely crippling stealth rock weakness I mentioned earlier. I needs support to deal with it's stealth rock weakness and the checks and counters it chooses. An A Rank by definition though it's much to strong to be put anything below A+ Rank IMO
 
Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost
Charizard Y fits the first and second description (Drought support helps boost other pokemon weak to water) Charizard Y has checks in Heatran and Tyranitar (they can't switch in safely due to fearing Focus Blast/ Earthquake) but his only true counters are blobs and Goodra which wall it to hell and back but you have other pokemon to handle that, Zard Y doesn't need much support to sweep besides sticky web which allows him to outspeed almost every pokemon in the tier. Charizard Y also has the added boost (which actually applies to Charizard in general) that you won't know which mega is until it's too late. Charizard Y shouldn't run roost, EVER. Charizard Y is not supposed to live throughout the match, he only has to punch holes in the opponent's team, that's why he's a wallbreaker.
 
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I think mega evolutions should be combined with base forms because the mega evolutions are a function of the base forms, a set they can use. In many cases this set is astronomically better, but the species is still the same. Surprise is a decent factor especially for charizard but again, same species. It would be like putting genesect with different drives in different tiers which makes no sense. or meloetta-p in a different tier than normal meloetta. Meloetta-p sets are some options meloetta has, just like mega stones are options for pokemon that get them. This is the way ubers does it anyways.


Charizard stays in S of course with this, if it stays as is undecided on charizard-y
 
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I think Charizard-y should be moved to A+ Rank. While it's a really really good Pokemon, it has a crippling stealth rock weakness that most pokemon in it's situation would drop tiers with.
Three of the five S rank Pokemon have a severe SR weakness in some form. It's an issue, but it's clearly a surmountable one.
 
Three of the five S rank Pokemon have a severe SR weakness in some form. It's an issue, but it's clearly a surmountable one.
Your right, however, neither M-Pinser or Zard-X's Stealth Rock weakness are nearly as crippling as Zard-y. Pinser and Zard-x are mainly set up sweepers so they really only need to come in once and set up so there isn't as much pressure on them with their SR problems. They also only take 25% (pinser before he mega evolves) so it's harder to revenge kill them than Zard-Y who takes 50%. Zard-Y also has to pick its checks and counters because of what I believe to be a 4MSS so depending on your opponent's pokemon you can be forced out and if stealth rock wasn't off the field, it's already taken 50% of it's health which means it can only come in once more unless you have roost in which case you have even more checks and counters without Dragon Pulse. It requires team support to get past stealth rock and it's checks and counters in a way that the other S-Ranks don't need. It's just not S Rank IMO. I do think that it's so strong that it's clearly an A+ Rank but it just requires to much team support to be S Rank.
 
Please stop trying to move either Charizard down. It's extremely distressing how people are ignoring how Charizard doesn't function as one or the other, it could potentially be both and you could very easily lose a Pokemon if you guess incorrectly. Aside from being the most unpredictable Pokemon in OU (not even "arguably" because Genesect and Mega Lucario are gone), each one has strengths individually that would make them at least borderline S-rank if they were standalones.

Charizard X is nigh unstoppable after a Dragon Dance, has very few safe switch-ins, and is actually not the easiest thing to revenge kill because it has respectable bulk. Charizard X also has a glorious typing. Fire/Dragon has nearly flawless coverage; the only relevant Pokemon that resist it are Azumarill and Heatran (and the only other one is is Carbink lol). Those Pokes can easily be handled by teammates, letting it run Roost in its fourth slot to take advantage of the defensive merits of its typing and its respectable bulk. It's also one of the only relevant physical sweepers who can't be burned. Charizard X would probably be S-rank even without Charizard Y existing, but the potential of it being something with entirely different counters really seals the deal for Charizard X.

Charizard Y is a bit more tame, and could possibly be A+ on its own merits. It's a fucking nuke although Goodra, Heatran, and Chansey/Blissey can take repeated hits from it. It's 4x weak to Stealth Rock, and has a (very) small case of 4MSS. But, what if you switch Goodra in on Charizard X Dragon Dance? That potential risk is alone enough to make Charizard Y S-Rank material, because of both formes supplement each other in a very significant way.

I am still for ranking Charizard and both of its Megas as one S-rank entity; in fact I think it's absolutely imperative that this happens. The entire Charizard package deserves S-Rank, which is why I'm so adamantly against Charizard Y dropping. I would have no problem with dropping Charizard Y if Charizard itself wasn't such a friggin' unpredictable Pokemon, but it needs to be ranked with Charizard X because it's such a large attribute to its success and vice versa.
 
Your right, however, neither M-Pinser or Zard-X's Stealth Rock weakness are nearly as crippling as Zard-y. Pinser and Zard-x are mainly set up sweepers so they really only need to come in once and set up so there isn't as much pressure on them with their SR problems. They also only take 25% (pinser before he mega evolves) so it's harder to revenge kill them than Zard-Y who takes 50%. Zard-Y also has to pick its checks and counters because of what I believe to be a 4MSS so depending on your opponent's pokemon you can be forced out and if stealth rock wasn't off the field, it's already taken 50% of it's health which means it can only come in once more. It requires team support to get past stealth rock and it's checks and counters in a way that the other S-Ranks don't need. It's just not S Rank IMO. I do think that it's so strong that it's clearly an A+ Rank but it just requires to much team support to be S Rank.

Zard Ys purpose is to punch big holes in things, he doesnt have to switch in and out for that. He can simply start off as a lead to avoid hazards all together and start wrecking havoc. He only has 4mss if u consider Roost to be a must have, which it isnt imo. Fireblast/Dragon Pulse/Focus Blast/Solar Beam is perfectly fine. Before he goes down he will have done severe dmg to the opponents team/walls so his job is done at that point.
 
Zard Ys purpose is to punch big holes in things, he doesnt have to switch in and out for that. He can simply start off as a lead to avoid hazards all together and start wrecking havoc. He only has 4mss if u consider Roost to be a must have, which it isnt imo. Fireblast/Dragon Pulse/Focus Blast/Solar Beam is perfectly fine. Before he goes down he will have done severe dmg to the opponents team/walls so his job is done at that point.
The set you just described is walled so hard by the pink blobs, forcing you out with that 50% you just lost from stealth rock leaving you easily revenge killed if you don't get rid of them.

Charizard Y is a bit more tame, and could possibly be A+ on its own merits. It's a fucking nuke although Goodra, Heatran, and Chansey/Blissey can take repeated hits from it. It's 4x weak to Stealth Rock, and has a (very) small case of 4MSS. But, what if you switch Goodra in on Charizard X Dragon Dance? That potential risk is alone enough to make Charizard Y S-Rank material, because of both formes supplement each other in a very significant way.
I like this argument and if they were both judged as the same pokemon, I would totally agree to them both being S-Rank but their not. Their seperate on this rank and should be judged as such until it's changed. I'm don't believe one pokemon should be placed on a Rank just because of another but still be judged as it's own pokemon. If that were the case there would be plenty of different cores that can make it to S-Rank.
 
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The set you just described is walled so hard by the pink blobs, forcing you out with that 50% you just lost from stealth rock leaving you easily revenge killed if you don't get rid of them.
Y-zard will always and forever be walled by the blobs. Same with most special attackers.

And as I said earlier, Pinsir will always be walled by Skarmory. There's not really a way around it. At least Y-zard could pontentially be X-zard and they might not switch a blob in on turn one.
 
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